So I've been lurking a little bit in these forums, and I haven't really seen a whole lot of talk about the Death and Taxes matchup. I find it to be horrible. Is there a particular way I need to line up my removal? Should I play aggressively? I just need to be pointed in the right direction and would greatly appreciate any help.
I don't mean to sound condescending, but we're favored against Death and Taxes. Specifically because we have Punishing Fire and it kills almost all of their creatures (Serra Avenger requires two or Abrupt Decay). Mother of Runes is annoying, but the recurring nature of Punishing Fire means she will die eventually (i.e. use it on their turn, then recur it on your turn). It'll be a really grindy game (i.e. don't get too aggressive), but the inevitability is on our side. Just keep their side of the board clear and you will eventually win. They will side in Rest in Peace game 2 so save an Abrupt Decay for it so as to preserve your Punishing Fire engine.
As for helping the match-up there's nothing to change in the mainboard if you have 3 or 4 Punishing Fires and Abrupt Decays, but in the sideboard I bring in my 2 Golgari Charms and 2 Toxic Deluge. Both of them completely destroy DnT (and Elves for that matter). It's very difficult for them to recover from even one Charm/Deluge if you 2, 3, or even 4 for 1 them. If they're smart or experienced, they won't commit more than two creatures. I also side in some artifact hate (for their equipment) and Pithing Needle for Aether Vial.
Lastly, you could lose game 2/3 to a good Cataclysm, but that for the most part is pretty difficult to play around. I think we're still favored 60/40 though.
Again, the key is keeping their board clear while incrementally building yours. Hope that helps.
I didn't take it as condescending. I really don't know this matchup at all, and I only know 1 guy in my area that plays it. I don't get to play against him much any more.
My problem is Thalia jacks me up a lot, but I see that you bring in 2 Toxic Deluge and 2 Golgari Charm. I only have 1 and 1.
As far as Mother of Runes, so you generally sit and wait instead of firing off any piece of removal when she hits the board (if possible)? That seems a bit weird.
Also, what do you board out for these cards you bring in? It seems like a lot of cards that you're suggesting to bring in.
As far as Mother of Runes, so you generally sit and wait instead of firing off any piece of removal when she hits the board (if possible)? That seems a bit weird.
Oh if i can kill her without them being able to untap and use her, then of course I kill her since it only requires one spell. However, if she sticks and can protect herself (or something else), then I am just patient. If your only kill spell to get her (before untap) is Abrupt Decay, I think you still do it, but there is a reasonable argument to hold the Decay since it's valuable later on (equipment, Avenger, Aether vial, etc.).
Also, what do you board out for these cards you bring in? It seems like a lot of cards that you're suggesting to bring in.
Game 2 is easier to sideboard for (if you won and are on the draw). I usually take out some discard since it's not as good on the draw. You could debate on Liliana since she isn't incredibly useful against them and they usually 1) have Thalia (making it hard to cast), 2) Flickerwisp your counters back to default, or 3) Pithing Needle/Revoker it, which is the most common case since they run 4 revokers. Actually typing that out, Liliana doesn't seem too good here so maybe side her out. I think I side in 7 cards against them meaning 7 need to go out. Long story short, keep all of your removal and add more with the Deluge/Charms.
I usually have really great game against DnT. The only times I've lost to it was them getting multiple Wastes, into MoR/Thalia, into Ports. Just really grinding my game into a halt. For SB, I usually pull out my 3 Hymns, 2 Thoughtseizes, and 2 Liliana's. Pretty much I try to shed any "Discard Random/Opponent's Choice card" effects to minimize any potential Wilt-Lief Liege they might bring in. Then I bring in 2 Charms, 1 Deluge, 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 LftL (for heavy Waste draws on their part or Cataclysm), 1 Needle. After that I usually don't have any problem. You have 7 ways to deal with RIP, 3 "Board Wipes" to break their board control elements, as well as Grudge/Needle handling equipment/Revokers/MoR.
I am a modern Jund player and my friend is trying to get me into legacy. He said it should be a good transition to play jund in legacy since I only need the manabase, which can be proxied for now. However, I have my doubts and have a couple questions.
A) How viable is Jund in legacy? Every response I have gotten is "Jund is a worse Shardless. Just play Shardless. Jund folds to combo". I dont want to spend time and energy and money into a legacy deck that just doesnt have the proper tools to win.
B) What does a common stock sideboard look like and what matchups are these cards brought in? I have played a couple games on cockatrice and sideboarding is super difficult.
C) How important is Chains of Mephistopheles? I dont like knowing there is a $300 price barrier on one card that might be very important to Junds success.
I am a modern Jund player and my friend is trying to get me into legacy. He said it should be a good transition to play jund in legacy since I only need the manabase, which can be proxied for now. However, I have my doubts and have a couple questions.
He's correct, but I will note that the playstyle is different than Modern Jund solely because we have access to Punishing Fire. This is the key reason to play the deck since it's recurrable removal and a late-game win condition. In short, it provides a non-Blue deck with continuous card advantage. Something non-Blue decks tend to not have.
A) How viable is Jund in legacy? Every response I have gotten is "Jund is a worse Shardless. Just play Shardless. Jund folds to combo". I dont want to spend time and energy and money into a legacy deck that just doesnt have the proper tools to win.
People saying that are misinformed. Jund is well-positioned in any meta that is blue-heavy. Specifically fair blue decks. Currently the most popular deck is Miracles (you've probably heard of it, even if you don't play Legacy) and Jund tears it apart. Jund is designed to beat fair Blue decks and in most metas, that is most of the room since players like relying on cards like Brainstorm and Ponder to smooth out their draws and access to Force of Will is a nice bonus too. Add to the fact we also tend to beat Elves and Death and Taxes (also top tier decks) because of Punishing Fire.
It is correct that Jund's worst match-ups are combos, but they are not unwinnable. We run 7 pieces of disruption main deck (4 if you count Liliana) and you can tailor your sideboard to help you game 2/3. To name a few, I play Slaughter Games, which pretty much wins me many combo games upon resolution by naming their only win condition. You can opt for more disruption (Duress), Chokes, and more.
The irony of the statement is that we actually crush Shardless BUG. Shardless and Miracles are literally my two favorite and easiest match-ups and they are two of the three most popular decks right now. Yes they have Force of Will to help their combo match-up, but any competent combo player can win when the other player only has Force of Will. If you know you're facing a Blue deck (that is generally slow) you are just patient and Duress them or something equivalent before you combo off. A Force of Will is not going to get it done.
Long story short, there is no "best" deck in Legacy. Every deck (even Shardless) has bad match-ups. You can shore them up with your SB, but there are some games you are not favored and you have to rely on your SB, your skill, etc. This is the format where even Tier 3 decks can win an Open. Look at Goblins winning one earlier this year.
B) What does a common stock sideboard look like and what matchups are these cards brought in? I have played a couple games on cockatrice and sideboarding is super difficult.
A stock sideboard in Legacy almost always starts with at least 3 pieces of GY-hate. That goes for almost any Legacy deck and Jund is no exception. After that I'd say you should dedicate at least 3 or more slots to your worst match-ups like Combo. I choose Choke, Slaughter Games and Chains, but you could also include REBs or Pyroblasts. I don't know if it's considered "stock" now, but I've been running multiple -1/-1 effects for years now. They destroy Death and Taxes and Elves and get those pesky True-Name Nemesis. Then again, you already do fairly well against DnT and Elves so maybe it's excessive.
As for SB'ing, assuming I win game 1 against fair blue decks I side out my disruption (they are on the play and Thoughtseize isn't as good then) and side in my hate cards like Choke, Chains, etc. Game 3 is a bit harder to SB since the Thoughtseizes and Hymns are live again.
If it's combo it's pretty easy. You take out removal and any high CMC cards and side in your hate cards, which should be plentiful from the SB. However, be careful since some combo players are now siding in things like Dark Confidant or Young Pyromancer since they know you're taking out removal. I tend to leave 1 or 2 Punishing Fires since they can still do damage even if there are no creatures. Usually Abrupt Decay and one or two Bloodbraid Elves are the first to go out for me.
Creature/swarm decks side in Golgari Charms and Toxic Deluges and possibly take out your disruption.
C) How important is Chains of Mephistopheles? I dont like knowing there is a $300 price barrier on one card that might be very important to Junds success.
It's nice, but not required. I've been playing Punishing Jund for over five years with a pretty high success rate at the local and medium-tier tournaments and I did so without any Chains. The irony is I now have two copies in my SB, but I have not had a chance to test them out in the local meta. I predict it will help my combo match-ups and further skew my fair Blue match-ups, but the latter seems like overkill since I already beat them about 80% of the time. In short, I can't say for sure how much better it will make my deck, but my previous success without it would indicate they aren't absolutely required. I got away without them for five years.
This is kind of lecturing, but the thing about Legacy is that it (and Vintage) reward player knowledge and skill far more than Standard or Modern where you might just have a bad match-up or have an unbeatable seven. Legacy rewards knowing the meta, knowing other people's decks, etc. It's why I play other decks even though Jund is my pet deck. It helps me learn what their outs are, what is a typical hand, etc. Same goes with playing my own deck for years. You start learning all the intricacies, your outs, your percentages, your favored match-ups, their typical game plan, etc. Legacy more than any other format really rewards this so my advice is to start playing and even if you lose, just learn from it. Legacy can be really rewarding and honestly, it's even more rewarding playing a non-Blue deck when everyone tells you that's stupid (i.e. why not play Brainstorm). In short, there are very few games that feel unwinnable and I love that the meta is always so diverse. You'll notice Wizards takes a relatively "hands off" approach to Legacy and that is a boon since it leads to diversity and players "figuring it out" rather than bans all the time.
My current deck list is in my signature although I am currently making revisions (which is funny since I hadn't touched my list in a long time). Hope my list and my answers help.
Speaking of which, I'm currently debating on a few changes to my Jund list (in my signature):
1) As many of you know, I absolutely love Sylvan Library since it provides both card quality and card advantage (i.e. pay life). So much that I run 2 copies while most people run 1. However, now that I have gotten 2 Chains of Mephistopheles, I am debating if it's worth playing these main deck and taking out the Libraries entirely. The obvious negative is we lose this filtering ability and live off our top decks. Furthermore, there are decks it's dead against, specifically Death and Taxes and other non-cantrip decks. However, the positive is it helps our main deck combo match-up since a resolved Chains is pretty backbreaking for them while also having the nice bonus of making fair Blue decks even easier. I'm pretty sure most would be taken by surprise with this in the main.
2) I'm also considering taking out 1 Bloodbraid Elf, adding 2 Arlinn Kord, and going up to 61 cards (I just can't cut the Maelstrom Pulse since it's gotten me out of trouble so many times). My friend recently did well at the last SCG and he was running a "strange" Jund brew with both the main deck chains and 4 token generating Planeswalkers:
I've talked to him and it seems pretty nice to have creatures (or ways to make creatures) that are resilient against Terminus. Way I see it, a resolved Arlinn or Garruk is pretty much game over for a mid-range or Control deck.
Now I obviously disagree with him on no Punishing Fires (the engine is too good), but I still think adding the Planeswalkers might be a good idea.
I'm not a fan or Arlinn Kord at all. I'd much prefer Garruk Relentless or Xenagos, the Reveler, because these can spawn tokens indefinitely. I can see the rationale for walkers instead of elf, but keep in mind that walkers are much more vulnerable to cards like spell pierce and counterspell, which do see quite some play in midrange decks these days. Also, all of the token-producing walkers we have access to are vulnerable to bolt. That makes me consider whether it's not worth it to splash white for Sorin, Lord of Innistrad if you want to go the walker route.
I think he chose Arlinn Kord since she is very versatile with "5" abilities. The pumps are relevant on Goyf for big damage and the Bolt every other turn is nice too. However, you're right that Xenagos and Garruk can basically make more tokens and do it more consistently. I think it comes down to that vs. Versatility.
However, I had not considered that this opens us up to more counter spells and disruption, which we are usually good at avoiding. Talking to Blue players it seems like most of our deck is basically equivalent in threat-density, which is why they take out their Force of Wills, but playing a PW like this would give them an obvious target.
I am a modern Jund player and my friend is trying to get me into legacy. He said it should be a good transition to play jund in legacy since I only need the manabase, which can be proxied for now. However, I have my doubts and have a couple questions.
Do also ask yourself if it's worthwhile to spend something like $600 to make the transition. You could probably build Legacy Burn or Legacy Affinity from scratch for less than it costs to convert Modern Jund to Legacy Jund. I'd almost say both, but that might be going to far. It'd certainly be vastly cheaper to convert both of those Modern decks than Jund alone.
Outside of the manabase, there are still a few cards - even excluding Chains of Mephistopheles - that cost meaningful money, but the lands are staggeringly expensive from the point of view of a Modern player.
I am a modern Jund player and my friend is trying to get me into legacy. He said it should be a good transition to play jund in legacy since I only need the manabase, which can be proxied for now. However, I have my doubts and have a couple questions.
Do also ask yourself if it's worthwhile to spend something like $600 to make the transition. You could probably build Legacy Burn or Legacy Affinity from scratch for less than it costs to convert Modern Jund to Legacy Jund. I'd almost say both, but that might be going to far. It'd certainly be vastly cheaper to convert both of those Modern decks than Jund alone.
Outside of the manabase, there are still a few cards - even excluding Chains of Mephistopheles - that cost meaningful money, but the lands are staggeringly expensive from the point of view of a Modern player.
This is true, but I feel like Affinity is basically dead in Legacy and Burn is not as interactive or fun to learn Legacy with. Jund is obviously a more difficult deck, but it gets you started in other decks since you have Bayous, fetches, Wastelands, Goyfs, and Confidants. It sounds like the poster already has those from Modern, but I think it's an easy way to transition into Legacy with something he's already somewhat familiar with and starts adding to his Legacy staples. Worst case, if he or she hates it, the stuff they bought is relatively easy to trade or sell (i.e. duals, etc.).
I'm not advising against it, I'm just trying to make it clear that the investment is far - very far - from trivial. I wish I had thought about it a bit more before I bought the Legacy bits for Jund.
Hello Jund players, I finished in 25th place out of 772 players in the Star City Games Legacy Open this past weekend with Punishing Jund. Here is the list:
Day 1
L 1-2 vs Infect
W 2-1 vs Stoneblade/Counterbalance
W 2-1 vs Belcher
W 2-1 vs UR Delver
W 2-1 vs RUG Delver
W 2-0 vs Loam
W 2-1 vs All My Spells/Belcher
W 2-1 vs Dredge
L 1-2 vs Lands
Day 2
L 0-2 vs Mono Red Sneak Attack
W 2-0 vs Merfolk
W 2-0 vs Elves
L 1-2 vs Infect
W 2-0 vs Four Color Stoneblade
W 2-0 vs Elves
Overall, I was very happy with the finish especially since this was my first legacy tournament in 5 years and I made the switch from Junk to Jund the day before the tournament. Even though I misplayed in game 3 in two of my losses, I felt very "dark" confident with Jund all weekend. I definitely learned a lot about the format and how to play certain match ups differently.
First of all, the mana base felt very good. There were some games where being able to fetch for the second swamp was very good. There was one game however where I wanted to fetch for the Forest in response to Blood Moon but was not able to get it with Marsh Flats. I think the correct split on the 4 non Verdant Catacombs fetches might be 3 of any black fetch and 1 Wooded Foothills. I would love for someone to comment on this. As for my main deck spells, I decided to play a 2nd Sylvan Library instead of a 4th Dark Confidant. Library helped me A LOT in the combo match ups. For example, I was dead to Dredge in game 3 but was able to find Grafdigger's Cage at the right time. With that said, I think 4 Bobs is correct. I might move the 2nd library to the side. The biggest mistake in my main deck was definitely the Inquisition of Kozilek. If you are going to play 4 turn 1 discard spells, I strongly recommend 4 Thoughtseize. Against Belcher one game, I played IOK turn 1 and saw Goblin Charbelcher and irrelevant spells. The same thing happened against Mono Red Sneak Attack in game 1 where I saw Sneak Attack which ended up killing me. In game 2, he killed me turn 1 with double Lotus Petal, Crystal Vein, Sneak Attack, pitching Simian Spirit Guide to play Griselbrand, drawing 7, pitching another Simian Spirit Guide, and then playing Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. I stood up, shook his hand, and told him that was awesome! While his deck was a bad match up, my opponent told me he drew the Crystal Vein which was huge because I played Deathrite Shaman turn 1 and had Hymn to Tourach and Maelstrom Pulse in hand.
Against all the fair decks, Jund felt very powerful. With very little surprise, Punishing Fire was fantastic though I never drew it against both Infect match ups in game 3. My biggest misplay of the tournament was against Infect on day 2. I played a swamp on turn 1 and he played a Noble Hierarch. On turn 2, I had the option to Abrupt Decay his Hierarch or play Hymn to Tourach. (I had a 3rd land in hand) I decided to play Hymn which was countered by Daze and that completely changed the game. If you ever play against Infect, make sure you play around both Daze and Spell Pierce. Against Lands, do not side out Liliana of the Veil. In game 3, I could have activated Wasteland on my turn to force my opponent to activate the Thespian's Stage/Dark Depths combo. I then could have played Liliana and kill the token. (I could not sit back with Wasteland because my opponent was going to tap my Wasteland at the end of turn with Rishadan Port) Instead, I played Bloodbraid Elf and kept Liliana in hand. The only excuse I can make here is that it was the last round on day 1. Then again, NO EXCUSES.
As for the sideboard, I would not have been able to day 2 without it. Chains of Mephistopheles, Grafdigger's Cage, and Null Rod were outstanding. My choice to play Dismember was for Eldrazi which I fortunately did not play. I definitely wanted one more graveyard hate card in the 75. I know some Jund lists play Scavening Ooze and I think it should either be that or a 3rd Surgical Extraction. I would definitely like to hear your input on this.
On a scale of 1-10, Punishing Jund is both fun and competitive. Even though some match ups are tough to win (Combo, Lands, etc.) I learned that anything can happen. In 6 of the 7 matches I won on day 1, I lost game 1. In 3 of those 6 matches, I mulliganed to 6 in game 2. The sideboard is definitely an important component to winning Legacy matches along with getting sufficient rest the night before and eating breakfast. In case you were wondering, I got 7 hours of sleep the night before day 1 and had an omelette and apple for breakfast.
I am definitely going to continue to play this deck because A. It fits my play style 2. Dark Confidant is my favorite card in magic and D. I really enjoy playing a deck that has a chance against any other deck.
Best of luck to all you Jund players out there and keep the fair magic train going.
Congratulations on your finish! I was excited to see Jund in the T32. I have not yet tried the 2nd swamp, but I might try it out since I've seen a few people make that switch. I believe my fetch config right now is 4 Catacombs, 2 Mire, and 2 Foothills. I could see switching to a 3/1 on the non-Catacomb fetches if I added the 2nd Swamp.
I'm also interested in just going up to 4 Punishing Fire as a few have done, because it seems in the fair matches, it can end the game on its own. Like you said, I feel that if I can find PF in the Infect match, I can control the pace of the game then. I think your sideboard seems solid and pretty similar to mine for the most part.
I agree that Confidant should be a 4-of. He just blows games open if left unchecked, and puts the opponent in a position of scrambling to find an answer before they get buried.
I think you're right about the IoK. Being able to take anything is just too strong to pass up.
Overall I've had excellent results with Jund and I continue to have a blast each time I play. I'm impressed you did so well after switching from Junk. Well done!
Your thought process mirrors a lot of the reasons I run the list I run. I run 4 Punishing Fire because it is the best card in the deck (maybe Sylvan could be better) and I want to ensure I draw it against every fair deck. It singlehandedly beats most of them. I get the Lightning Bolts since they let you kill T1 Delver, Deathrite, and Mom, but I've done fine without them the last 3+ years since the decks that tend to make that T1 play are decks we're favored against (i.e. Ux Delver and DnT).
I think 4 Confidant is always the right answer in Jund. It is a must answer card. Even if it eats a STP that means your Goyf might stick. We're all about card advantage and he's just another engine.
As for Sylvan, I think you should keep the 2nd. As you said, it lets you dig deeper for answers and in some situations you get to draw three cards and refuel.
The 4 Thoughtseize is pretty standard. I get the IoK is better against Burn, but there are so many 4 CMC cards that beat us.
What was the issue with infect? I ask as i play against it frequently
I don't have any issues with Infect. I find it to be a favored match-up so long as they don't have the nuts. We have 8 to 10 removal spells and they only run 12 creatures we care about and 4 can be Wastelanded (save Wasteland for Inkmoth Nexus).
One counterintuitive thing to do is kill their creatures at the end of their turn or during your main phase. It's weird since you want to kill them in combat, but they will use their protection/pump spells and get more infect. If you do it main phase, you get them to waste their protection/pump without it infecting you for more.
What's everyone's thoughts on the new creatures for DnT?
I haven't played or tested against it yet, but I think the new Chalice guy will make the match-up more annoying. I feel like we're still favored (especially after siding in our -X/-X effects), but putting him on 2 is pretty crappy for us since it turns off most of our removal.
We'll have to wait and see what the new DnT list looks like. I don't think it will run 4 copies of the new guy.
Played tonight swapping 4 bobs for 4 grim flayers. Grim flayer was a lot of fun whenever he hit the board and seemed to make an impact. Has anyone else tested flayers in their 75 yet?
I'm not sure what all your words are supposed to be pointing towards, but the new Chandra seems bad to me. I'd rather spend that mana on Bloodbraid Elf or even a Garruk Relentless all day long. She doesn't affect the board in an effective manner for me to even consider playing here anywhere in my 75, but good luck to you.
The double red in the mana cost is the toughest part. You already need at least one green and two black in the early part of the game. Between our wastelands and the opponents', this can be a challenge. A double red card just seems tough to me. I have often wanted to run things like scab-clan berserker or eidolon of the great revel against storm, but the double red cost is always prohibitive.
Also, bloodbraid works really well against opposing planeswalkers.
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I don't mean to sound condescending, but we're favored against Death and Taxes. Specifically because we have Punishing Fire and it kills almost all of their creatures (Serra Avenger requires two or Abrupt Decay). Mother of Runes is annoying, but the recurring nature of Punishing Fire means she will die eventually (i.e. use it on their turn, then recur it on your turn). It'll be a really grindy game (i.e. don't get too aggressive), but the inevitability is on our side. Just keep their side of the board clear and you will eventually win. They will side in Rest in Peace game 2 so save an Abrupt Decay for it so as to preserve your Punishing Fire engine.
As for helping the match-up there's nothing to change in the mainboard if you have 3 or 4 Punishing Fires and Abrupt Decays, but in the sideboard I bring in my 2 Golgari Charms and 2 Toxic Deluge. Both of them completely destroy DnT (and Elves for that matter). It's very difficult for them to recover from even one Charm/Deluge if you 2, 3, or even 4 for 1 them. If they're smart or experienced, they won't commit more than two creatures. I also side in some artifact hate (for their equipment) and Pithing Needle for Aether Vial.
Lastly, you could lose game 2/3 to a good Cataclysm, but that for the most part is pretty difficult to play around. I think we're still favored 60/40 though.
Again, the key is keeping their board clear while incrementally building yours. Hope that helps.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
My problem is Thalia jacks me up a lot, but I see that you bring in 2 Toxic Deluge and 2 Golgari Charm. I only have 1 and 1.
As far as Mother of Runes, so you generally sit and wait instead of firing off any piece of removal when she hits the board (if possible)? That seems a bit weird.
Also, what do you board out for these cards you bring in? It seems like a lot of cards that you're suggesting to bring in.
Oh if i can kill her without them being able to untap and use her, then of course I kill her since it only requires one spell. However, if she sticks and can protect herself (or something else), then I am just patient. If your only kill spell to get her (before untap) is Abrupt Decay, I think you still do it, but there is a reasonable argument to hold the Decay since it's valuable later on (equipment, Avenger, Aether vial, etc.).
Game 2 is easier to sideboard for (if you won and are on the draw). I usually take out some discard since it's not as good on the draw. You could debate on Liliana since she isn't incredibly useful against them and they usually 1) have Thalia (making it hard to cast), 2) Flickerwisp your counters back to default, or 3) Pithing Needle/Revoker it, which is the most common case since they run 4 revokers. Actually typing that out, Liliana doesn't seem too good here so maybe side her out. I think I side in 7 cards against them meaning 7 need to go out. Long story short, keep all of your removal and add more with the Deluge/Charms.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
I am a modern Jund player and my friend is trying to get me into legacy. He said it should be a good transition to play jund in legacy since I only need the manabase, which can be proxied for now. However, I have my doubts and have a couple questions.
A) How viable is Jund in legacy? Every response I have gotten is "Jund is a worse Shardless. Just play Shardless. Jund folds to combo". I dont want to spend time and energy and money into a legacy deck that just doesnt have the proper tools to win.
B) What does a common stock sideboard look like and what matchups are these cards brought in? I have played a couple games on cockatrice and sideboarding is super difficult.
C) How important is Chains of Mephistopheles? I dont like knowing there is a $300 price barrier on one card that might be very important to Junds success.
He's correct, but I will note that the playstyle is different than Modern Jund solely because we have access to Punishing Fire. This is the key reason to play the deck since it's recurrable removal and a late-game win condition. In short, it provides a non-Blue deck with continuous card advantage. Something non-Blue decks tend to not have.
People saying that are misinformed. Jund is well-positioned in any meta that is blue-heavy. Specifically fair blue decks. Currently the most popular deck is Miracles (you've probably heard of it, even if you don't play Legacy) and Jund tears it apart. Jund is designed to beat fair Blue decks and in most metas, that is most of the room since players like relying on cards like Brainstorm and Ponder to smooth out their draws and access to Force of Will is a nice bonus too. Add to the fact we also tend to beat Elves and Death and Taxes (also top tier decks) because of Punishing Fire.
It is correct that Jund's worst match-ups are combos, but they are not unwinnable. We run 7 pieces of disruption main deck (4 if you count Liliana) and you can tailor your sideboard to help you game 2/3. To name a few, I play Slaughter Games, which pretty much wins me many combo games upon resolution by naming their only win condition. You can opt for more disruption (Duress), Chokes, and more.
The irony of the statement is that we actually crush Shardless BUG. Shardless and Miracles are literally my two favorite and easiest match-ups and they are two of the three most popular decks right now. Yes they have Force of Will to help their combo match-up, but any competent combo player can win when the other player only has Force of Will. If you know you're facing a Blue deck (that is generally slow) you are just patient and Duress them or something equivalent before you combo off. A Force of Will is not going to get it done.
Long story short, there is no "best" deck in Legacy. Every deck (even Shardless) has bad match-ups. You can shore them up with your SB, but there are some games you are not favored and you have to rely on your SB, your skill, etc. This is the format where even Tier 3 decks can win an Open. Look at Goblins winning one earlier this year.
A stock sideboard in Legacy almost always starts with at least 3 pieces of GY-hate. That goes for almost any Legacy deck and Jund is no exception. After that I'd say you should dedicate at least 3 or more slots to your worst match-ups like Combo. I choose Choke, Slaughter Games and Chains, but you could also include REBs or Pyroblasts. I don't know if it's considered "stock" now, but I've been running multiple -1/-1 effects for years now. They destroy Death and Taxes and Elves and get those pesky True-Name Nemesis. Then again, you already do fairly well against DnT and Elves so maybe it's excessive.
As for SB'ing, assuming I win game 1 against fair blue decks I side out my disruption (they are on the play and Thoughtseize isn't as good then) and side in my hate cards like Choke, Chains, etc. Game 3 is a bit harder to SB since the Thoughtseizes and Hymns are live again.
If it's combo it's pretty easy. You take out removal and any high CMC cards and side in your hate cards, which should be plentiful from the SB. However, be careful since some combo players are now siding in things like Dark Confidant or Young Pyromancer since they know you're taking out removal. I tend to leave 1 or 2 Punishing Fires since they can still do damage even if there are no creatures. Usually Abrupt Decay and one or two Bloodbraid Elves are the first to go out for me.
Creature/swarm decks side in Golgari Charms and Toxic Deluges and possibly take out your disruption.
It's nice, but not required. I've been playing Punishing Jund for over five years with a pretty high success rate at the local and medium-tier tournaments and I did so without any Chains. The irony is I now have two copies in my SB, but I have not had a chance to test them out in the local meta. I predict it will help my combo match-ups and further skew my fair Blue match-ups, but the latter seems like overkill since I already beat them about 80% of the time. In short, I can't say for sure how much better it will make my deck, but my previous success without it would indicate they aren't absolutely required. I got away without them for five years.
This is kind of lecturing, but the thing about Legacy is that it (and Vintage) reward player knowledge and skill far more than Standard or Modern where you might just have a bad match-up or have an unbeatable seven. Legacy rewards knowing the meta, knowing other people's decks, etc. It's why I play other decks even though Jund is my pet deck. It helps me learn what their outs are, what is a typical hand, etc. Same goes with playing my own deck for years. You start learning all the intricacies, your outs, your percentages, your favored match-ups, their typical game plan, etc. Legacy more than any other format really rewards this so my advice is to start playing and even if you lose, just learn from it. Legacy can be really rewarding and honestly, it's even more rewarding playing a non-Blue deck when everyone tells you that's stupid (i.e. why not play Brainstorm). In short, there are very few games that feel unwinnable and I love that the meta is always so diverse. You'll notice Wizards takes a relatively "hands off" approach to Legacy and that is a boon since it leads to diversity and players "figuring it out" rather than bans all the time.
My current deck list is in my signature although I am currently making revisions (which is funny since I hadn't touched my list in a long time). Hope my list and my answers help.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
1) As many of you know, I absolutely love Sylvan Library since it provides both card quality and card advantage (i.e. pay life). So much that I run 2 copies while most people run 1. However, now that I have gotten 2 Chains of Mephistopheles, I am debating if it's worth playing these main deck and taking out the Libraries entirely. The obvious negative is we lose this filtering ability and live off our top decks. Furthermore, there are decks it's dead against, specifically Death and Taxes and other non-cantrip decks. However, the positive is it helps our main deck combo match-up since a resolved Chains is pretty backbreaking for them while also having the nice bonus of making fair Blue decks even easier. I'm pretty sure most would be taken by surprise with this in the main.
2) I'm also considering taking out 1 Bloodbraid Elf, adding 2 Arlinn Kord, and going up to 61 cards (I just can't cut the Maelstrom Pulse since it's gotten me out of trouble so many times). My friend recently did well at the last SCG and he was running a "strange" Jund brew with both the main deck chains and 4 token generating Planeswalkers:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=104494
I've talked to him and it seems pretty nice to have creatures (or ways to make creatures) that are resilient against Terminus. Way I see it, a resolved Arlinn or Garruk is pretty much game over for a mid-range or Control deck.
Now I obviously disagree with him on no Punishing Fires (the engine is too good), but I still think adding the Planeswalkers might be a good idea.
Thoughts?
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
I think he chose Arlinn Kord since she is very versatile with "5" abilities. The pumps are relevant on Goyf for big damage and the Bolt every other turn is nice too. However, you're right that Xenagos and Garruk can basically make more tokens and do it more consistently. I think it comes down to that vs. Versatility.
However, I had not considered that this opens us up to more counter spells and disruption, which we are usually good at avoiding. Talking to Blue players it seems like most of our deck is basically equivalent in threat-density, which is why they take out their Force of Wills, but playing a PW like this would give them an obvious target.
Thanks.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
Do also ask yourself if it's worthwhile to spend something like $600 to make the transition. You could probably build Legacy Burn or Legacy Affinity from scratch for less than it costs to convert Modern Jund to Legacy Jund. I'd almost say both, but that might be going to far. It'd certainly be vastly cheaper to convert both of those Modern decks than Jund alone.
Outside of the manabase, there are still a few cards - even excluding Chains of Mephistopheles - that cost meaningful money, but the lands are staggeringly expensive from the point of view of a Modern player.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
This is true, but I feel like Affinity is basically dead in Legacy and Burn is not as interactive or fun to learn Legacy with. Jund is obviously a more difficult deck, but it gets you started in other decks since you have Bayous, fetches, Wastelands, Goyfs, and Confidants. It sounds like the poster already has those from Modern, but I think it's an easy way to transition into Legacy with something he's already somewhat familiar with and starts adding to his Legacy staples. Worst case, if he or she hates it, the stuff they bought is relatively easy to trade or sell (i.e. duals, etc.).
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=105154
Breakdown of Tournament...
Day 1
L 1-2 vs Infect
W 2-1 vs Stoneblade/Counterbalance
W 2-1 vs Belcher
W 2-1 vs UR Delver
W 2-1 vs RUG Delver
W 2-0 vs Loam
W 2-1 vs All My Spells/Belcher
W 2-1 vs Dredge
L 1-2 vs Lands
Day 2
L 0-2 vs Mono Red Sneak Attack
W 2-0 vs Merfolk
W 2-0 vs Elves
L 1-2 vs Infect
W 2-0 vs Four Color Stoneblade
W 2-0 vs Elves
Overall, I was very happy with the finish especially since this was my first legacy tournament in 5 years and I made the switch from Junk to Jund the day before the tournament. Even though I misplayed in game 3 in two of my losses, I felt very "dark" confident with Jund all weekend. I definitely learned a lot about the format and how to play certain match ups differently.
First of all, the mana base felt very good. There were some games where being able to fetch for the second swamp was very good. There was one game however where I wanted to fetch for the Forest in response to Blood Moon but was not able to get it with Marsh Flats. I think the correct split on the 4 non Verdant Catacombs fetches might be 3 of any black fetch and 1 Wooded Foothills. I would love for someone to comment on this. As for my main deck spells, I decided to play a 2nd Sylvan Library instead of a 4th Dark Confidant. Library helped me A LOT in the combo match ups. For example, I was dead to Dredge in game 3 but was able to find Grafdigger's Cage at the right time. With that said, I think 4 Bobs is correct. I might move the 2nd library to the side. The biggest mistake in my main deck was definitely the Inquisition of Kozilek. If you are going to play 4 turn 1 discard spells, I strongly recommend 4 Thoughtseize. Against Belcher one game, I played IOK turn 1 and saw Goblin Charbelcher and irrelevant spells. The same thing happened against Mono Red Sneak Attack in game 1 where I saw Sneak Attack which ended up killing me. In game 2, he killed me turn 1 with double Lotus Petal, Crystal Vein, Sneak Attack, pitching Simian Spirit Guide to play Griselbrand, drawing 7, pitching another Simian Spirit Guide, and then playing Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. I stood up, shook his hand, and told him that was awesome! While his deck was a bad match up, my opponent told me he drew the Crystal Vein which was huge because I played Deathrite Shaman turn 1 and had Hymn to Tourach and Maelstrom Pulse in hand.
Against all the fair decks, Jund felt very powerful. With very little surprise, Punishing Fire was fantastic though I never drew it against both Infect match ups in game 3. My biggest misplay of the tournament was against Infect on day 2. I played a swamp on turn 1 and he played a Noble Hierarch. On turn 2, I had the option to Abrupt Decay his Hierarch or play Hymn to Tourach. (I had a 3rd land in hand) I decided to play Hymn which was countered by Daze and that completely changed the game. If you ever play against Infect, make sure you play around both Daze and Spell Pierce. Against Lands, do not side out Liliana of the Veil. In game 3, I could have activated Wasteland on my turn to force my opponent to activate the Thespian's Stage/Dark Depths combo. I then could have played Liliana and kill the token. (I could not sit back with Wasteland because my opponent was going to tap my Wasteland at the end of turn with Rishadan Port) Instead, I played Bloodbraid Elf and kept Liliana in hand. The only excuse I can make here is that it was the last round on day 1. Then again, NO EXCUSES.
As for the sideboard, I would not have been able to day 2 without it. Chains of Mephistopheles, Grafdigger's Cage, and Null Rod were outstanding. My choice to play Dismember was for Eldrazi which I fortunately did not play. I definitely wanted one more graveyard hate card in the 75. I know some Jund lists play Scavening Ooze and I think it should either be that or a 3rd Surgical Extraction. I would definitely like to hear your input on this.
On a scale of 1-10, Punishing Jund is both fun and competitive. Even though some match ups are tough to win (Combo, Lands, etc.) I learned that anything can happen. In 6 of the 7 matches I won on day 1, I lost game 1. In 3 of those 6 matches, I mulliganed to 6 in game 2. The sideboard is definitely an important component to winning Legacy matches along with getting sufficient rest the night before and eating breakfast. In case you were wondering, I got 7 hours of sleep the night before day 1 and had an omelette and apple for breakfast.
I am definitely going to continue to play this deck because A. It fits my play style 2. Dark Confidant is my favorite card in magic and D. I really enjoy playing a deck that has a chance against any other deck.
Best of luck to all you Jund players out there and keep the fair magic train going.
-Chris
PS: Props if you get the A. 2. D. reference.
I'm also interested in just going up to 4 Punishing Fire as a few have done, because it seems in the fair matches, it can end the game on its own. Like you said, I feel that if I can find PF in the Infect match, I can control the pace of the game then. I think your sideboard seems solid and pretty similar to mine for the most part.
I agree that Confidant should be a 4-of. He just blows games open if left unchecked, and puts the opponent in a position of scrambling to find an answer before they get buried.
I think you're right about the IoK. Being able to take anything is just too strong to pass up.
Overall I've had excellent results with Jund and I continue to have a blast each time I play. I'm impressed you did so well after switching from Junk. Well done!
I think 4 Confidant is always the right answer in Jund. It is a must answer card. Even if it eats a STP that means your Goyf might stick. We're all about card advantage and he's just another engine.
As for Sylvan, I think you should keep the 2nd. As you said, it lets you dig deeper for answers and in some situations you get to draw three cards and refuel.
The 4 Thoughtseize is pretty standard. I get the IoK is better against Burn, but there are so many 4 CMC cards that beat us.
Anyway, congrats.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
I don't have any issues with Infect. I find it to be a favored match-up so long as they don't have the nuts. We have 8 to 10 removal spells and they only run 12 creatures we care about and 4 can be Wastelanded (save Wasteland for Inkmoth Nexus).
One counterintuitive thing to do is kill their creatures at the end of their turn or during your main phase. It's weird since you want to kill them in combat, but they will use their protection/pump spells and get more infect. If you do it main phase, you get them to waste their protection/pump without it infecting you for more.
I haven't played or tested against it yet, but I think the new Chalice guy will make the match-up more annoying. I feel like we're still favored (especially after siding in our -X/-X effects), but putting him on 2 is pretty crappy for us since it turns off most of our removal.
We'll have to wait and see what the new DnT list looks like. I don't think it will run 4 copies of the new guy.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
Also, bloodbraid works really well against opposing planeswalkers.