I've seen lists with Rabblemaster as a thing to Cascade into and to make a board presence. Has it been shown to be worth it at all? From what I've seen of Jund it has dudes(expensive ones in BBE and sometimes Huntmaster of the Fells)but since they are our bombs they don't stay around long. Should decks put in 1 or 2 Bitterblossom? Rabblemaster? Pack Rat? Creakwood Liege? Other Jund colored token producers?
One thing you said about Pernicious Deed, if you are worried itll wipe your own board you clearly don't need to play it since you have a established board, I see Deed for what it is, a Boardwipe that hits everything when you need it to hit everything.
I totaly see your point on pyroblast/REB vs more discard, itll keep this in mind.
One thing you said about Pernicious Deed, if you are worried itll wipe your own board you clearly don't need to play it since you have a established board, I see Deed for what it is, a Boardwipe that hits everything when you need it to hit everything.
I totaly see your point on pyroblast/REB vs more discard, itll keep this in mind.
what about engineered plague? to low impact?
Like Domantas, I am not a fan of PD. Yes it hits "everything" (within reason), but that's also why Toxic Deluge is nice. It hits almost all the creatures that matter and you have other ways to get rid of enchantments, artifacts, etc. (Abrupt Decay). Yes it won't do much again MUD and PD would, but frankly you're using a SB slot for situations that aren't as likely as those that are. Then again, I didn't notice you didn't have the PFire engine so that changes things dramatically. Frankly that is the best part of this deck.
I go REB since it can't be Misdirected onto itself, but that's a minor advantage.
As for Engineered Plague, the same things apply here. Toxic Deluge and Golgari Charm are just better. One hits a lot more creatures and the other has 3 modes that can all be useful.
I hope we get to see this deck make a little return at SCG Legacy this weekend, with DigTT gone this and shardless bug get way better, love watching these decks.
Does this mean anything? Or just a random qualifier?
I love Jund. I want to run Jund, but I can't stand that Jund just doesn't seem to win.
Sure, at a LGS it might prevail, but overall...what's the likelihood Jund ever returns to form as a top threat?
With Shardless BUG being a top tier deck again, Jund being a deck choice is legit. However, for it to take down a major is pretty doubtful since combo is such a bad match-up for us. To go two days (at a GP) and not face at least 3 or 4 combo decks is pretty unrealistic. It'd have to be a perfect storm (good match-ups, meta in the right place, combo decks losing to decks we're favored against, etc.) and a great pilot to push it over at a major.
At the same time, it's my deck of choice if I want to do reasonably well since Legacy rewards player's knowledge of their deck and meta more than any other format (imo).
What are the best hate cards for popular combo decks you can load up on, since fair decks are already an ok matchups?
I saw some people mistakingly boarding in Redblast and pyroblast against ANT not knowing the only blue cards are cantrips (might be worthwhile countering I dont know)
cards like nullrod (to stop LED and Lotus petal), surgical, exta discard, pyroblast/Redblast,pithin needle, phyrexian revoker, slaughter games? Thats about it isnt it? You could go deep and play cards like Chalice of the void and trinisphere?
What are the best hate cards for popular combo decks you can load up on, since fair decks are already an ok matchups?
I saw some people mistakingly boarding in Redblast and pyroblast against ANT not knowing the only blue cards are cantrips (might be worthwhile countering I dont know)
cards like nullrod (to stop LED and Lotus petal), surgical, exta discard, pyroblast/Redblast,pithin needle, phyrexian revoker, slaughter games? Thats about it isnt it? You could go deep and play cards like Chalice of the void and trinisphere?
I think going for things like Null Rod and Trinisphere is a bit severe, but the obvious choices are REB/Pyroblast, Duress, Surgical Extraction, Choke, Chains of Mephistophles, etc. I only would side in REB/Pyro for Omni-Tell and Sneak and Show, unless I literally have nothing else in my SB to put in against Storm because REB'ing their Brainstorm is better than having a completely dead card in hand.
My personal tech is Slaughter Games. It's stolen enough wins for me that I replaced Duress with it. Duress is good because it gives us even more Turn 1 disruption, but it doesn't close out the game and our deck is rather slow in terms of winning (not a fast clock). With so many cantrips, I find combo decks can recover pretty quickly after a Duress/Thoughtseize. Slaughter Games is obviously much slower, but assuming they don't kill you turn 1 or 2, it can outright break their back and immediately end the game if you name the right card. It's a risk/reward scenario (i.e. it's slower than Duress), but again, it's won me enough games either by my opponent being surprised I had it or being able to completely neuter their deck.
What would you name against Storm? Dont they always mainboard two kills, tendrils and empty the warrens? Also some decks play burning wise and get their killcard with that but I guess you are save to just name tendrils
What would you name against Storm? Dont they always mainboard two kills, tendrils and empty the warrens? Also some decks play burning wise and get their killcard with that but I guess you are save to just name tendrils
I think Tendrils is a pretty safe bet. If I'm a storm deck I will assume I am still pretty heavily favored against Jund and this usually hits them out of left field. Thing is, if it were Cabal Therapy I'd name Burning Wish (TES) or Infernal Tutor (ANT), but they use that to tutor up their kill card. Even if they resolve an Infernal Tutor, what are they going to tutor? You named the one card that they were going to use.
Given, when I play storm, I intentionally play both Tendrils and Empty the Warnings so I have two kill conditions. Frankly I've won ton of games by not storming to 10 and just making 12 Goblins.
Ran Jund at a tournament today. Went 4-0-1 to make T8 as #1 seed, but then lost in the quarterfinals to Infect in 3 games. Deck felt strong all day, just got some less than stellar draws against Infect I felt (never saw PF).
the question here is the sideboard. which cards to get for an unknown meta? i expect some goblins, sneak/show, miracles, elves, other BGx decks. but who knows...
When making a sideboard in most formats, I always start with at least 2 or 3 pieces of graveyard hate. It looks like you have Leylines and Surgical Extractions, which are fine. There are many others. With that as a start, I move on to the next few things.
In a blind meta, I would expect Elves, Miracles, Ux Delver decks, and some combo decks. For Elves I'd have at least 2 ways to give -X/-X to kill their board. I go with both Golgari Charm and Toxic Deluge. The former is nice because it has multiple modes that are relevant. The enchantment killing is super relevant against Miracles (Counterbalance and RIP) and other decks. Deluge is nice because you can kill other things other than 1/1 Elves.
Next I would have 2 or 3 REBs or Pyroblasts for Blue-based decks. I'd also play Choke since most Blue decks side out Force of Will against us so you can usually land it. I would then add some more discard or anti-combo cards like Duress, Inquisition, etc. I'd have at least three of that since you have plenty of dead cards Game 1 against Combo decks.
That should leave you 4 or so other slots, which is where you basically target what you expect. I usually like to have a way to deal with Artifacts (other than Abrupt Decay) and other nice things like Pithing Needle since they are general and mess with multiple things.
My friend runs a burn deck so I do get to play against it every now and then. I put Trinisphere for combo, but I bring it in against burn, too, as well as the Jitte, 2 Duress. I try to keep my Wastelands up to nuke my own lands to lessen the pain from PoP.
Mostly try to have a fast hand and hope to race while sticking a DRS/Jitte to keep your head above water. It's definitely not an easy match.
1). I normally lead off with Shaman. Unless you've got the info what you're playing against and that necessitates the TS instead, I'd lead with Shaman.
2). I board out my Hymns and leave some amount of TS in to grab Natural Orders or GSZ. This past weekend I was able to grab a Glimpse which really slowed him down. Also Jitte is huge here as well. It was probably the reason I won game 3 against elves. Although he eventually found the Rec Sage for it, the damage had been done.
3). Here I usually board out all my Hymns and 1 TS, leaving 3 to grab specific things. Discard is bad in the late game, so you want to minimize that as much as possible.
4). DnT should be one of your better match ups. But I do prioritize getting rid of MoR, because if she survives, she can blow the game wide open. Post board I bring Deluge, Charm, Grudge, Jitte, and Needle in. Needle usually names an equipment, but I've also used it to shut down MoR so I could take control of the game with P Fire. Sometimes they'll have the multiple MoR hands and that can be a nightmare if you don't find Deluge/Charm fast enough. Needle gives an extra layer of protection.
1. T1 shaman or thoughtseize? (i start, unknown deck, i have both) i was told that always no matter what shaman goes first... anyone could explain please?
People may disagree with me here, but the right play in any blind situation (with not only Jund as your deck) is Thoughtseize. They key is blind. What if you're playing against Belcher and that DRS is going to do nothing while the Thoughtseize wrecks them. Same with TES, Storm, etc. However, it's not just combo decks (which are roughly 1/4 or 1/3 of a blind meta), I feel a T1 Thoughtseize is one of the best turn 1 play you can make in Legacy): 1) You get *all* the information on your opponent's game plan/turn sequences (i.e. they kept this hand and now you're ruining their sequences), 2) You disrupt their turn 1 play (again they kept this hand because they felt it was playable and you've now changed it), and 3) they have literally no information on your deck (while you have all of yours). For example, a non-combo deck like Miracles. A T1 DRS isn't that big of a deal to them (unless it goes into a T2 Liliana). However, a T1 Thoughtseize taking their Sensei's Divining Top pretty much hoses their hand. The deck relies heavily on Top.
So again, I think T1 Thoughtseize is always the right play Game 1 against a deck you know nothing about because you now know everything and slow them down. Obviously this is not a hard rule, but a reasonable rule of thumb. If I have a Liliana in my opener as well, I'd debate the T1 DRS too.
2. which discard to side out against elves? i was thinking just hymn out, as targeted discard might be better and i can hit natural order. jitte in against elves or is it just overkill when i have punishing fire and mass removal already?
If you have enough cards, I think siding out most of your discard is fine. You're going to win via removal, not disruption. Your Punishing Fires, Toxic Deluge, Golgari Charms, etc. are what will win the game, not discard. I mean yes you could slow them down, but the removal is what will ultimately win you the game. If you have enough to side in (I usually side in 2 Toxic Deluge, 2 Golgari Charm, 1 Scavenging Ooze) then it's fine to take out discard (and some of your BBE).
3. similar decks and mirror (jund, junk, bug) : should i side some of my discard out? i play modern, and that's quite common you side your discard out, to not have dead topdecks lategame.
Depends if you're on the play or draw. If you're on the draw then yes. If you're on the play, the same thing applies with Thoughtseize. Having a few is good so you can land that T1 Thoughtseize and get ahead. However, Discard is usually where I look in terms of what to take out for midrange fair decks.
4. death and taxes: should be easy if i get rid of mother and thalia soon, right?
Yes. DnT is a slightly favored match-up because of Punishing Fire. You can lose if they Wasteland/Port you a lot and land a Thalia or something, but just be intelligent with your fetches (fetch basics) and keep the board clear on their side. Also be wary of end-of-turn Vial shenanigans.
Played Jund in our Legacy FNM tonight and went 5-0. I'd been putting up decent results this last month (3-2, 4-1, etc.), but the 5-0 was a bit surprising given our local meta lately (Lands, 4 Burn decks, 2 Omni-tell, etc.). I lucked out and dodged the unfair decks and beat Maverick, Esperblade, Elves, Infect, and Miracles. Now that I think about it, I believe I only dropped one game (to Esperblade) and went 2-0 against everyone else. As always, Punishing Fire is the MVP and sole reason to play this deck.
As for discard against Elves, yes I side out Bloodbraid, but given the number of removal spells I add (4) and then Scavenging Ooze and Pithing Needle, I have to touch the discard. I slightly disagree with Liliana's usefulness against them having witnessed it tonight. If we are able to keep them in check with a removal here and there Game 1, Liliana seals the deal by either killing an elf every other turn or taking a card from their hand every turn. Elves is nearly hellbent after they play a bunch of dudes, but if you Deluge or Golgari Charm them, Liliana seals the deal and keeps them from ever re-developing a board again. Don't get me wrong, the -X/-X effects are what wreck them, but I rarely find the discard being *that* impactful because they usually already played their elves. We have to usually be reactive (i.e. kill them) other than taking their Natural Orders with discard. I can't actually remember the last time I lost to Elves. I think my sideboard is just too good for them so I don't really mind replacing a discard spell that later on in the game is a pretty terrible top deck for something that wrecks them.
Although I haven't take out my REBs I am starting to agree. I find that I already am pretty far ahead against the decks I side them in against (i.e. fair Blue) and things get so much worse when we put our Chokes in. If I didn't have REBs to side in, I could keep some more threats so it's debatable that's better in games where we just need to close it out and are already ahead. However, like you said, the Show and Tell and Omnisciences are what ultimately make me keep them in my SB.
I fought against Tezzerator, Lands, Stasis and burn.
Here is how the rounds went:
Round 1- Jund VS Tezzerator
Matche 1
I win the roll
My hand : Wooded foothillsBloodstained mireThoughtseizeHymn to tourachdeathrite shamanPunishing fire and Dark confidant
T1: I open with a Badlands fetched from wooded foothills, followed by a thoughtseize revealing city of traitorsburied ruintransmute artifactthe abysstalisman of dominancepolluted delta and baleful strix. I make him discard the abyss.
T1 opponent: He plays city of traitors followed by talisman of dominance and pass.
T2: I draw a bloodbraid elf , fetch for a bayou with bloodstained mire and cast an hymn to tourach discarding his buried ruin and transmute artifact .
T2 opponent: He plays another talisman of dominance, sacrifice his city of traitors to a polluted delta fetching an island to cast baleful strix.
T3: I draw Badlands, play deathrite shaman and pass.
T3 opponent: He plays a swamp , plays a spellskite . In response, I punishing fire its baleful strix.
T4: I draw Lightning bolt , play dark confidant and attack swiftly with deathrite shaman, making a face like I just made a mistake. He blocks with spellskite and I Bolt the spellskite .
T4: He drops ensnaring bridge and pass.
T5: I reveal bloodstained mire to dark confidant, draw Tarmogoyf. I play tarmogoyf and pass.
T5 opponent: he plays Tezzeret, agent of bolas , +1 it and pass. I remove Thoughtseize from my graveyard with deathrite shaman to make him lose 2 life.
T6: I reveal Grove of the burnwillows, draw abrupt decay. I decay his ensnaring bridge and swing for his Tezzeret, agent of Bolas. It dies.
T6: He does nothing revelant.
T7: Reveal a Bayou, Draw a Bloodbraid elf. Play the elf, cascading into Tarmogoyf, he concedes.
Matches 2 Jund vs Tezzerator
I Mulligan to 6 keeping a hand of Thoughtseize, Surgical extraction, Dark confidant, Graven Cairn, Grove of the burnwillows and Deathrite shaman.
T1 Opponent: He opens up with a polluted delta and pass.
T1: Draw Wooded foothills, Fetch a Badlands with foothills, cast thoughtseize revealing a hand with Thopter foundry. He doesn't get to keep it.
T2 Opponent: he casts a Talisman.
T3-4: I happen to draw abrupt decay and Kolaghan's command. It does not go well for him.
Round 2 is against Lands
He wins the roll and start with a forest followed by exploration and wasteland.
T1 I play Deathrite shaman.
T2 opponent: He wasteland my bayou, play mox diamond discarding taiga, plays thespian's stage. Plays life from the loam getting a wasteland and taiga back, cycles tranquil thicket to dredge life from the loam putting a dark depth in. Put taiga into play and cast another life from the loam getting Dark depth into his hand and pass.
T2: I play nothing revelant.
T3 opponent: He put Dark depth into play and wait until the end of my turn before creating a Marit Lage token.
Match-2
Out: 3 abrupt decay and 1 Liliana, in: 2 surgical extraction, 2 scavenging ooze
Round 2 was stressful. I had a surgical extraction, dark confidant, bloodbraid elf wasteland, bayou, verdant catacombs and a deathrite shaman in my oppening hand.
T1: Bayou, Deathrite shaman.
T1 opponent: Wooded foothills fetching taiga, plays gambles and discards glacial chasm.
T2 Fetch badlands with verdant catacombs, play dark confidant and pass.
T2 Opponent: he plays dark depth, mox diamond discarding a tabernacle of pendal haven and pass, play life from the loam, in response I remove Glacial chasm with Shaman, getting back his land and pass.
T3: I wasteland the dark depth and surgical extraction it. I see punishing fire as the only ways he can kill me.
The following turns I play a scavenging ooze and tarmogoyf and go to town, he never Drew punishing fire.
Match 3 ends up pretty much the same as game 2. He locks my forest with Rishadan port after I cast deathrite shaman and manage to cast another shaman, using the land in his graveyard to cast my spells. I eventually draw hymn to tourach and surgical extraction. Manage to hit dark depth and extract it. He draws into punishing fire and Grove of the burnwillows and toast one of my shaman, but I draw into another land and scavenging ooze, Threatening his secondary win con. I eventually manage to remove the punishing fire via double shaman and ooze activation, and he scoops.
Round 3 was against Stasis, an interesting but long fight.
Match 1-he wins the roll and goes T1 island into Black vise. That does not sounds good.
T1 I go Badlands into thoughtseize revealing Force of will, counterspell, stasis, chain of vapor, island, forsaken city and dictate of kruphix. I hesitate and take out force of will.
T2 Opponent: he plays island, go.
T2: Vise is hurting me, I play deathrite, land, and pass.
T3 opponent: forsaken city, go. End of turn Lightning bolt it.
T3: Drop a land, I play Liliana, +1 it, I discard a punishing fire, he discards a howling mine, pass. EOT he plays dictate of kruphix.
T4 Opponent: He plays stasis, drop a land, chain of vapor my Liliana and pass with a land untapped.
T4: I drop a land, Play tarmogoyf and pass. EOT he chain of vapor his Stasis, sacrifice an island to copy its spell and target my tarmogoyf with it.
T5 opponent: He drops another island, play stasis, play howling mine and pass
T5 He got me into his lock and died to black vise.
Match 2: In: 1 abrupt decay, 2 surgical extraction, 3 pyroblast and 1 red elemental blast. Out: 4 punishing fire 2 Liliana and 1 hymn to tourach.
I Mulligan to 6 with thoughtseize and surgical extraction, hoping to get stasis or black vise into his graveyard.
T1: Bayou into Thoughtseize, he has neither. Discard a force of will
T1 opponent: island, go.
T2: Fetch for a badlands and cast deathrite shaman.
T2 Opponent: island, Howling Mine. EOT lightning bolt
T3: Land, Play another shaman and pass.
T3 Opponent: Island, plays stasis. I Abrupt decay, but in response He chain of vapor, to which I tap a red and pyroblast the chain of vapor. I really want stasis to hit the graveyard since I have a surgical extraction in hand. It resolves, and I surgical extract it, or at least attempt to, but he force of will it. Alright, that was fun.
T4: I draw into dark confidant and tarmogoyf. I cast dark confidant (lol) and tarmogoyf.
T4 Opponent he untaps, drops an island and pass.
T5: I reveal Bloodstained mire to confidant, draw lightning bolt and a Bloodbraid elf. I go all-in casting the bloodbraid elf, cascading into a third deathrite shaman. I swing, he chain of vapor the goyf, and take the elf and pass.
T5 Opponent: He plays another stasis, which gets abrupt decayed using my two deathrite EOT.
T6: I reveal a bloodbraid elf, draw lighning bolt and graven cairn. I Cast the elf, cascade into bolt, swing with all and finish him with a bolt.
Game 3 he never Drew stasis and I got the beatdown early with a hymn to tourach powered Tarmogoyf protected by pyroblast. It weirdly felt like I was playing UR Delver.
Last round was against Burn
Game 1 was over after T4. I got a early tarmogoyf with 4 toughness but was unable to race him.
Game 2 In: 2 scavenging ooze, 2 surgical extraction out: 4 dark confidant.
T1: I thoughtseize a fireblast.
T1 opponent: He Drew a goblin guide and cast it. Revealing a Bloodbraid elf.
T2 I hymn to tourach and take out a chain lightning and a lava spike
T2 Opponent: land, lava spike, attack with guide. I'm down to 10
T3: draw a punishing fire, play a deathrite shaman and hold onto my punishing fire.
T3 Opponent: He Bolt my shaman, swing with guide, I toast it with punishing fire. The guide reveal a Liliana.
T4: I cast bloodbraid elf, cascade into goyf. Swing. He fetches for a mountain and cast searing blaze on the elf, down to 7.
T4 Opponent: Top deck mode, drop a land. go
T5: Draw grove of the burnwillows, swing with goyf.
T5 Opponent: draws Eidolon of the great revel and pass, in response I take my punishing fire back to my hand.
T6: I draw Tarmogoyf, toast eidolon with punishing fire, cast the second tarmogoyf and swing.
T6 Opponent: He draws fireblast and cast it, down to 3.
T7 Alpha strike for the win.
Game 3
T1 opponent: he goes for suspend rift Bolt
T1: Thoughtseize, I see double goblin guide, lighning bolt, another rift and lava spike. I take out the bolt since I have double bolt and punishing fire in my hand.
T2 Opponent he cast double guide, revealing a land which I put into my hand.
T2: I sit on my 2 red mana producing land and wait.
T3Opponent: he attacks, I kill his two guide after revealing abrupt decay. He cast lava spike, suspend rift and bolt my face.
T3: I cast Scavenging ooze and deathrite shaman.
T4 Opponent: Rift bolt meets Deathrite shaman, he cast eidolon of the great revel and pass.
T4: I cast punishing fire, killing the eidolon, plays a large tarmogoyf followed by a bloodbraid elf the next turn and my opponent can't keep up. However, I finished with 2 life left.
Ok, that was a long post. Anyhow, here are my thoughts on this build.
No1 Liliana of the veil felt really underwhelming during the whole night. I know she shines in some matchup, but everytime I Drew her or had her in my hand I wish it was another card. A metagame call I guess, but I felt sad that such a powerful card was not more needed in my games.
No3 Hymn to tourach is a god send. It has been one of my most played spell and favorite card for 15 years of playing magic and it never cease to impress me with the value it nets me. From discarding key cards to mana screwing your opponent, hymn to tourach is one of the strongest T2 this deck can do. T1 thougtseize into T2 hymn to tourach is my favorite opening. Hymn to tourach is a fearful card to face. Against aggro deck, it usually suppresses two creatures or burn spells before they hit the board, giving you extra turns to gain control. Against combo, a one mana discard spell may be preffered, but hymn to tourach can outright time walk you to victory. Against control, I see it has a proactive mean to out control them. Control hate randomness, and so they hate hymn to tourach. Well maybe not, I might be a bit too fan of this card.
No4 (Edit after comment from CorwinOfAmber)
About the filter land Graven Cairns, that card was previously a taiga, but I changed it for 2 reasons. The first reason is that I removed a Taiga from my list because I noticed after many months of play that I was never fetching for a Taiga early game, nor was I wishing to draw one midgame. The first land I will usually want in play is a Badlands, then a bayou. But a Taiga? I never want that. But I kept it because I liked the idea of completing the Trifecta of Taiga, Badlands, Bayou. But I grew out of it for the best of both my deck and my sanity.
The second reason I switched Taiga for Graven Cairns is that black is so present in my build that I really want to have double black on turn 2 for a hymn to tourach and ensuring a T3 Liliana of the veil. However, having 8 non-black mana producing land means you have a real chance of having no double black on T2. Having a Grove of the burnwillows or a taiga and only a black source in your opening hand when a hymn to tourach is in your hand is heart wrenching. Having Graven Cairns in my hand will assure me that T2 Hymn to tourach despite having 1 black mana producing land in my opening hand. Deathrite Shaman really helps securing your mana too.
So far I only have good words for Graven Cairns. Of course having your other land wastelanded when you only have Graven Cairns is very underwhelming, but when I have a graven cairns in hand and I fear an opposing wasteland I will fetch for a basic land.
No5(Edit after comment from CorwinOfAmber) Scavenging Ooze is an interesting one on paper. The idea of threatening any graveyard strategies even more as soon as he comes into play, unlike deathrite shaman, is a seducing prospect. However, I have been on the fence regarding its inclusion in my sideboard, since I am thinking of including surgical extraction as a playset and I hesitate on what to remove. It looks good against creature-based deck and against the Mirror match, but so far my meta is creature light. I sided it in against Burn as I was expecting his creatures and my own creatures to pile in in the graveyard and the pump + life gain could really help me against Burn, but it was not as stellar as I thought. Despite not beeing a star in my last matches, I still feel more secure when I have it around, like a safety net. My 2 cents, however, and its only my own flawed opinion, is that the first 3 turns are so important and mana intensive that scavenging ooze might be too much of a mana investment early game to justify its inclusion in a fast meta. The reason why I love surgical extraction so much is that you can still hurt your opponent's strategy without hampering your own development. You do not want to tap out when you have a Scavenging ooze in play, that alone would give your opponent too much room to either deal with this guy or work around it. If I play it, I would play it alongside surgical and not in place of, and I would definitely play scavenging ooze in place of surgical against deck that have a lot of redundancy and no ''Key'' cards.
What do you guys think about using Surgical extraction + discard and board destruction package?
Anyways, hope it helped
Thanks for the reply, I have updated the list to include the 3 wasteland I was running.
About the filter land Graven Cairns, that card was previously a taiga, but I changed it for 2 reasons. The first reason is that I removed a Taiga from my list because I noticed after many months of play that I was never fetching for a Taiga early game, nor was I wishing to draw one midgame. The first land I will usually want in play is a Badland, then a bayou. But a Taiga? I never want that. But I kept it because I liked the idea of completing the Trifecta of Taiga, Badlands, Bayou. But I grew out of it for the best of both my deck and my sanity.
The second reason I switched Taiga for Graven Cairns is that black is so present in my build that I really want to have double black on turn 2 for a hymn to tourach and ensuring a T3 Liliana of the veil. However, having 8 non-black mana producing land means you have a real chance of having no double black on T2. Having a Grove of the burnwillows or a taiga and only a black source in your opening hand when a hymn to tourach is in your hand is heart wrenching. Having Graven Cairns in my hand will assure me that T2 Hymn to tourach despite having 1 black mana producing land in my opening hand. Deathrite Shaman really helps securing your mana too.
So far I only have good words for Graven Cairns. Of course having your other land wastelanded when you only have Graven Cairns is very underwhelming, but when I have a graven cairns in hand and I fear an opposing wasteland I will fetch for a basic land.
As for surgical extraction and extirpate, it may be a metagame call, but I really enjoy playing them with a discard heavy package. I haven't tried it yet, but the idea of going after their fetch lands and duals and win the ressource war seems interesting.
You know, after reading your post, I think Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth might actually be better than Graven Cairns for the deck since it provides you with black mana even with wasteland in play. The only downside I see with urborg, tomb of yawgmoth, is a matchup dependant one. Since Urborg works on all lands, it can actually help your opponent fix its mana base, which could work against you if your opponent plays around it and you want to play the color denial strategy with wasteland. It may be a problem if black is popular in your meta, but it definitely require some testing. I think I will switch the graven cairns for a Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth for my next Legacy night and let you guys know how it played out. Thanks for the idea!
Scavenging Ooze is an interesting one on paper. The idea of threatening any graveyard strategies even more as soon as he comes into play, unlike deathrite shaman, is a seducing prospect. However, I have been on the fence regarding its inclusion in my sideboard, since I am thinking of including surgical extraction as a playset and I hesitate on what to remove. It looks good against creature-based deck and against the Mirror match, but so far my meta is creature light. I sided it in against Burn as I was expecting his creatures and my own creatures to pile in in the graveyard and the pump + life gain could really help me against Burn, but it was not as stellar as I thought. Despite not beeing a star in my last matches, I still feel more secure when I have it around, like a safety net. My 2 cents, however, and its only my own flawed opinion, is that the first 3 turns are so important and mana intensive that scavenging ooze might be too much of a mana investment early game to justify its inclusion in a fast meta. The reason why I love surgical extraction so much is that you can still hurt your opponent's strategy without hampering your own development. You do not want to tap out when you have a Scavenging ooze in play, that alone would give your opponent too much room to either deal with this guy or work around it. If I play it, I would play it alongside surgical and not in place of, and I would definitely play scavenging ooze in place of surgical against deck that have a lot of redundancy and no ''Key'' cards.
As for leyline of sanctity, seeing this against my decklist would blank a lot of my spells and I have no way, main deck or sideboard, to deal with this card. Fortunately I haven't seen anyone running this card in the last couple of months of attending legacy night at my lgs, but such a card raise the concern of not being able to deal with enchantement that costs more than 3. Maelstrom pulse and krosan grip are the first fix that come to my mind, and I would probably opt for maelstrom pulse for the versatility, despite krosan grip showing the middle finger to blue, can't really decide yet.
As for the Burn matchup, I was not expecting to win against it. Jund generally has a very defavorable matchup against burn, but I guess I trusted in the heart of the cards and it paid off lol.
The reason we have Scavenging Ooze in our SB is two fold: 1) It counter GY-based strategies, but also 2) many decks side in RIP against us making our Goyfs 0/1. Scavenging Ooze at a minimum is a 2/2. I've sided out a Goyf or two against decks like Miracles and sided in my Ooze so I at least have a reliable 2/2. It's much more relevant than a 0/1.
RE: Maelstrom Pulse/Krosan Grip
I understand the benefits of Grip, but the decks it excels against we already stomp (in particular UWx Miracles). We have 3/4 Abrupt Decay and 1/2 Maelstrom Pulse. That is more than enough to kill pesky permanents. I also run Golgari Charm as you mentioned and that gives me even more Enchantment kill, but also answers to True-Name. Again, Krosan Grip is good, but it almost never makes my 15 SB cards. Yes it kills Sensei's Top, but so does Decay'ing it in response to a fetchland.
I totaly see your point on pyroblast/REB vs more discard, itll keep this in mind.
what about engineered plague? to low impact?
Like Domantas, I am not a fan of PD. Yes it hits "everything" (within reason), but that's also why Toxic Deluge is nice. It hits almost all the creatures that matter and you have other ways to get rid of enchantments, artifacts, etc. (Abrupt Decay). Yes it won't do much again MUD and PD would, but frankly you're using a SB slot for situations that aren't as likely as those that are. Then again, I didn't notice you didn't have the PFire engine so that changes things dramatically. Frankly that is the best part of this deck.
I go REB since it can't be Misdirected onto itself, but that's a minor advantage.
As for Engineered Plague, the same things apply here. Toxic Deluge and Golgari Charm are just better. One hits a lot more creatures and the other has 3 modes that can all be useful.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
Does this mean anything? Or just a random qualifier?
I love Jund. I want to run Jund, but I can't stand that Jund just doesn't seem to win.
Sure, at a LGS it might prevail, but overall...what's the likelihood Jund ever returns to form as a top threat?
With Shardless BUG being a top tier deck again, Jund being a deck choice is legit. However, for it to take down a major is pretty doubtful since combo is such a bad match-up for us. To go two days (at a GP) and not face at least 3 or 4 combo decks is pretty unrealistic. It'd have to be a perfect storm (good match-ups, meta in the right place, combo decks losing to decks we're favored against, etc.) and a great pilot to push it over at a major.
At the same time, it's my deck of choice if I want to do reasonably well since Legacy rewards player's knowledge of their deck and meta more than any other format (imo).
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
I saw some people mistakingly boarding in Redblast and pyroblast against ANT not knowing the only blue cards are cantrips (might be worthwhile countering I dont know)
cards like nullrod (to stop LED and Lotus petal), surgical, exta discard, pyroblast/Redblast,pithin needle, phyrexian revoker, slaughter games? Thats about it isnt it? You could go deep and play cards like Chalice of the void and trinisphere?
I think going for things like Null Rod and Trinisphere is a bit severe, but the obvious choices are REB/Pyroblast, Duress, Surgical Extraction, Choke, Chains of Mephistophles, etc. I only would side in REB/Pyro for Omni-Tell and Sneak and Show, unless I literally have nothing else in my SB to put in against Storm because REB'ing their Brainstorm is better than having a completely dead card in hand.
My personal tech is Slaughter Games. It's stolen enough wins for me that I replaced Duress with it. Duress is good because it gives us even more Turn 1 disruption, but it doesn't close out the game and our deck is rather slow in terms of winning (not a fast clock). With so many cantrips, I find combo decks can recover pretty quickly after a Duress/Thoughtseize. Slaughter Games is obviously much slower, but assuming they don't kill you turn 1 or 2, it can outright break their back and immediately end the game if you name the right card. It's a risk/reward scenario (i.e. it's slower than Duress), but again, it's won me enough games either by my opponent being surprised I had it or being able to completely neuter their deck.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
I think Tendrils is a pretty safe bet. If I'm a storm deck I will assume I am still pretty heavily favored against Jund and this usually hits them out of left field. Thing is, if it were Cabal Therapy I'd name Burning Wish (TES) or Infernal Tutor (ANT), but they use that to tutor up their kill card. Even if they resolve an Infernal Tutor, what are they going to tutor? You named the one card that they were going to use.
Given, when I play storm, I intentionally play both Tendrils and Empty the Warnings so I have two kill conditions. Frankly I've won ton of games by not storming to 10 and just making 12 Goblins.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
-Sideboard-
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Duress
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Choke
1 Slaughter Games
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Trinisphere
I played against Elves (2-1), Miracles (2-1), Goblins (2-1), Death and Taxes (2-0), Loam Pox (0-0-3), Infect (1-2)
When making a sideboard in most formats, I always start with at least 2 or 3 pieces of graveyard hate. It looks like you have Leylines and Surgical Extractions, which are fine. There are many others. With that as a start, I move on to the next few things.
In a blind meta, I would expect Elves, Miracles, Ux Delver decks, and some combo decks. For Elves I'd have at least 2 ways to give -X/-X to kill their board. I go with both Golgari Charm and Toxic Deluge. The former is nice because it has multiple modes that are relevant. The enchantment killing is super relevant against Miracles (Counterbalance and RIP) and other decks. Deluge is nice because you can kill other things other than 1/1 Elves.
Next I would have 2 or 3 REBs or Pyroblasts for Blue-based decks. I'd also play Choke since most Blue decks side out Force of Will against us so you can usually land it. I would then add some more discard or anti-combo cards like Duress, Inquisition, etc. I'd have at least three of that since you have plenty of dead cards Game 1 against Combo decks.
That should leave you 4 or so other slots, which is where you basically target what you expect. I usually like to have a way to deal with Artifacts (other than Abrupt Decay) and other nice things like Pithing Needle since they are general and mess with multiple things.
Hope that helps.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
Mostly try to have a fast hand and hope to race while sticking a DRS/Jitte to keep your head above water. It's definitely not an easy match.
2). I board out my Hymns and leave some amount of TS in to grab Natural Orders or GSZ. This past weekend I was able to grab a Glimpse which really slowed him down. Also Jitte is huge here as well. It was probably the reason I won game 3 against elves. Although he eventually found the Rec Sage for it, the damage had been done.
3). Here I usually board out all my Hymns and 1 TS, leaving 3 to grab specific things. Discard is bad in the late game, so you want to minimize that as much as possible.
4). DnT should be one of your better match ups. But I do prioritize getting rid of MoR, because if she survives, she can blow the game wide open. Post board I bring Deluge, Charm, Grudge, Jitte, and Needle in. Needle usually names an equipment, but I've also used it to shut down MoR so I could take control of the game with P Fire. Sometimes they'll have the multiple MoR hands and that can be a nightmare if you don't find Deluge/Charm fast enough. Needle gives an extra layer of protection.
Hope this helped!
People may disagree with me here, but the right play in any blind situation (with not only Jund as your deck) is Thoughtseize. They key is blind. What if you're playing against Belcher and that DRS is going to do nothing while the Thoughtseize wrecks them. Same with TES, Storm, etc. However, it's not just combo decks (which are roughly 1/4 or 1/3 of a blind meta), I feel a T1 Thoughtseize is one of the best turn 1 play you can make in Legacy): 1) You get *all* the information on your opponent's game plan/turn sequences (i.e. they kept this hand and now you're ruining their sequences), 2) You disrupt their turn 1 play (again they kept this hand because they felt it was playable and you've now changed it), and 3) they have literally no information on your deck (while you have all of yours). For example, a non-combo deck like Miracles. A T1 DRS isn't that big of a deal to them (unless it goes into a T2 Liliana). However, a T1 Thoughtseize taking their Sensei's Divining Top pretty much hoses their hand. The deck relies heavily on Top.
So again, I think T1 Thoughtseize is always the right play Game 1 against a deck you know nothing about because you now know everything and slow them down. Obviously this is not a hard rule, but a reasonable rule of thumb. If I have a Liliana in my opener as well, I'd debate the T1 DRS too.
If you have enough cards, I think siding out most of your discard is fine. You're going to win via removal, not disruption. Your Punishing Fires, Toxic Deluge, Golgari Charms, etc. are what will win the game, not discard. I mean yes you could slow them down, but the removal is what will ultimately win you the game. If you have enough to side in (I usually side in 2 Toxic Deluge, 2 Golgari Charm, 1 Scavenging Ooze) then it's fine to take out discard (and some of your BBE).
Depends if you're on the play or draw. If you're on the draw then yes. If you're on the play, the same thing applies with Thoughtseize. Having a few is good so you can land that T1 Thoughtseize and get ahead. However, Discard is usually where I look in terms of what to take out for midrange fair decks.
Yes. DnT is a slightly favored match-up because of Punishing Fire. You can lose if they Wasteland/Port you a lot and land a Thalia or something, but just be intelligent with your fetches (fetch basics) and keep the board clear on their side. Also be wary of end-of-turn Vial shenanigans.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
As for discard against Elves, yes I side out Bloodbraid, but given the number of removal spells I add (4) and then Scavenging Ooze and Pithing Needle, I have to touch the discard. I slightly disagree with Liliana's usefulness against them having witnessed it tonight. If we are able to keep them in check with a removal here and there Game 1, Liliana seals the deal by either killing an elf every other turn or taking a card from their hand every turn. Elves is nearly hellbent after they play a bunch of dudes, but if you Deluge or Golgari Charm them, Liliana seals the deal and keeps them from ever re-developing a board again. Don't get me wrong, the -X/-X effects are what wreck them, but I rarely find the discard being *that* impactful because they usually already played their elves. We have to usually be reactive (i.e. kill them) other than taking their Natural Orders with discard. I can't actually remember the last time I lost to Elves. I think my sideboard is just too good for them so I don't really mind replacing a discard spell that later on in the game is a pretty terrible top deck for something that wrecks them.
Although I haven't take out my REBs I am starting to agree. I find that I already am pretty far ahead against the decks I side them in against (i.e. fair Blue) and things get so much worse when we put our Chokes in. If I didn't have REBs to side in, I could keep some more threats so it's debatable that's better in games where we just need to close it out and are already ahead. However, like you said, the Show and Tell and Omnisciences are what ultimately make me keep them in my SB.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
4 Verdant catacombs
2 Wooded foothills
2 Bloodstained mire
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Graven Cairns
4 Grove of the burnwillows
3 Wasteland
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark confidant
3 Bloodbraid elf
Sorceries (8)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to tourach
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the veil
Instants (10)
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing fire
3 Abrupt decay
2 Toxic deluge
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Pyroblast
1 Red elemental blast
1 abrupt decay
2 pithing needle
2 scavenging ooze
2 surgical extraction
I fought against Tezzerator, Lands, Stasis and burn.
Here is how the rounds went:
Round 1- Jund VS Tezzerator
Matche 1
I win the roll
My hand : Wooded foothills Bloodstained mire Thoughtseize Hymn to tourach deathrite shaman Punishing fire and Dark confidant
T1: I open with a Badlands fetched from wooded foothills, followed by a thoughtseize revealing city of traitors buried ruin transmute artifact the abyss talisman of dominance polluted delta and baleful strix. I make him discard the abyss.
T1 opponent: He plays city of traitors followed by talisman of dominance and pass.
T2: I draw a bloodbraid elf , fetch for a bayou with bloodstained mire and cast an hymn to tourach discarding his buried ruin and transmute artifact .
T2 opponent: He plays another talisman of dominance, sacrifice his city of traitors to a polluted delta fetching an island to cast baleful strix.
T3: I draw Badlands, play deathrite shaman and pass.
T3 opponent: He plays a swamp , plays a spellskite . In response, I punishing fire its baleful strix.
T4: I draw Lightning bolt , play dark confidant and attack swiftly with deathrite shaman, making a face like I just made a mistake. He blocks with spellskite and I Bolt the spellskite .
T4: He drops ensnaring bridge and pass.
T5: I reveal bloodstained mire to dark confidant, draw Tarmogoyf. I play tarmogoyf and pass.
T5 opponent: he plays Tezzeret, agent of bolas , +1 it and pass. I remove Thoughtseize from my graveyard with deathrite shaman to make him lose 2 life.
T6: I reveal Grove of the burnwillows, draw abrupt decay. I decay his ensnaring bridge and swing for his Tezzeret, agent of Bolas. It dies.
T6: He does nothing revelant.
T7: Reveal a Bayou, Draw a Bloodbraid elf. Play the elf, cascading into Tarmogoyf, he concedes.
I side in 2 surgical extraction, 2 Kolaghan's command and 1 abrupt decay, out 2 punishing fire and 2 Liliana of the veil
Matches 2 Jund vs Tezzerator
I Mulligan to 6 keeping a hand of Thoughtseize, Surgical extraction, Dark confidant, Graven Cairn, Grove of the burnwillows and Deathrite shaman.
T1 Opponent: He opens up with a polluted delta and pass.
T1: Draw Wooded foothills, Fetch a Badlands with foothills, cast thoughtseize revealing a hand with Thopter foundry. He doesn't get to keep it.
T2 Opponent: he casts a Talisman.
T3-4: I happen to draw abrupt decay and Kolaghan's command. It does not go well for him.
Round 2 is against Lands
He wins the roll and start with a forest followed by exploration and wasteland.
T1 I play Deathrite shaman.
T2 opponent: He wasteland my bayou, play mox diamond discarding taiga, plays thespian's stage. Plays life from the loam getting a wasteland and taiga back, cycles tranquil thicket to dredge life from the loam putting a dark depth in. Put taiga into play and cast another life from the loam getting Dark depth into his hand and pass.
T2: I play nothing revelant.
T3 opponent: He put Dark depth into play and wait until the end of my turn before creating a Marit Lage token.
Match-2
Out: 3 abrupt decay and 1 Liliana, in: 2 surgical extraction, 2 scavenging ooze
Round 2 was stressful. I had a surgical extraction, dark confidant, bloodbraid elf wasteland, bayou, verdant catacombs and a deathrite shaman in my oppening hand.
T1: Bayou, Deathrite shaman.
T1 opponent: Wooded foothills fetching taiga, plays gambles and discards glacial chasm.
T2 Fetch badlands with verdant catacombs, play dark confidant and pass.
T2 Opponent: he plays dark depth, mox diamond discarding a tabernacle of pendal haven and pass, play life from the loam, in response I remove Glacial chasm with Shaman, getting back his land and pass.
T3: I wasteland the dark depth and surgical extraction it. I see punishing fire as the only ways he can kill me.
The following turns I play a scavenging ooze and tarmogoyf and go to town, he never Drew punishing fire.
Match 3 ends up pretty much the same as game 2. He locks my forest with Rishadan port after I cast deathrite shaman and manage to cast another shaman, using the land in his graveyard to cast my spells. I eventually draw hymn to tourach and surgical extraction. Manage to hit dark depth and extract it. He draws into punishing fire and Grove of the burnwillows and toast one of my shaman, but I draw into another land and scavenging ooze, Threatening his secondary win con. I eventually manage to remove the punishing fire via double shaman and ooze activation, and he scoops.
Round 3 was against Stasis, an interesting but long fight.
Match 1-he wins the roll and goes T1 island into Black vise. That does not sounds good.
T1 I go Badlands into thoughtseize revealing Force of will, counterspell, stasis, chain of vapor, island, forsaken city and dictate of kruphix. I hesitate and take out force of will.
T2 Opponent: he plays island, go.
T2: Vise is hurting me, I play deathrite, land, and pass.
T3 opponent: forsaken city, go. End of turn Lightning bolt it.
T3: Drop a land, I play Liliana, +1 it, I discard a punishing fire, he discards a howling mine, pass. EOT he plays dictate of kruphix.
T4 Opponent: He plays stasis, drop a land, chain of vapor my Liliana and pass with a land untapped.
T4: I drop a land, Play tarmogoyf and pass. EOT he chain of vapor his Stasis, sacrifice an island to copy its spell and target my tarmogoyf with it.
T5 opponent: He drops another island, play stasis, play howling mine and pass
T5 He got me into his lock and died to black vise.
Match 2: In: 1 abrupt decay, 2 surgical extraction, 3 pyroblast and 1 red elemental blast. Out: 4 punishing fire 2 Liliana and 1 hymn to tourach.
I Mulligan to 6 with thoughtseize and surgical extraction, hoping to get stasis or black vise into his graveyard.
T1: Bayou into Thoughtseize, he has neither. Discard a force of will
T1 opponent: island, go.
T2: Fetch for a badlands and cast deathrite shaman.
T2 Opponent: island, Howling Mine. EOT lightning bolt
T3: Land, Play another shaman and pass.
T3 Opponent: Island, plays stasis. I Abrupt decay, but in response He chain of vapor, to which I tap a red and pyroblast the chain of vapor. I really want stasis to hit the graveyard since I have a surgical extraction in hand. It resolves, and I surgical extract it, or at least attempt to, but he force of will it. Alright, that was fun.
T4: I draw into dark confidant and tarmogoyf. I cast dark confidant (lol) and tarmogoyf.
T4 Opponent he untaps, drops an island and pass.
T5: I reveal Bloodstained mire to confidant, draw lightning bolt and a Bloodbraid elf. I go all-in casting the bloodbraid elf, cascading into a third deathrite shaman. I swing, he chain of vapor the goyf, and take the elf and pass.
T5 Opponent: He plays another stasis, which gets abrupt decayed using my two deathrite EOT.
T6: I reveal a bloodbraid elf, draw lighning bolt and graven cairn. I Cast the elf, cascade into bolt, swing with all and finish him with a bolt.
Game 3 he never Drew stasis and I got the beatdown early with a hymn to tourach powered Tarmogoyf protected by pyroblast. It weirdly felt like I was playing UR Delver.
Last round was against Burn
Game 1 was over after T4. I got a early tarmogoyf with 4 toughness but was unable to race him.
Game 2 In: 2 scavenging ooze, 2 surgical extraction out: 4 dark confidant.
T1: I thoughtseize a fireblast.
T1 opponent: He Drew a goblin guide and cast it. Revealing a Bloodbraid elf.
T2 I hymn to tourach and take out a chain lightning and a lava spike
T2 Opponent: land, lava spike, attack with guide. I'm down to 10
T3: draw a punishing fire, play a deathrite shaman and hold onto my punishing fire.
T3 Opponent: He Bolt my shaman, swing with guide, I toast it with punishing fire. The guide reveal a Liliana.
T4: I cast bloodbraid elf, cascade into goyf. Swing. He fetches for a mountain and cast searing blaze on the elf, down to 7.
T4 Opponent: Top deck mode, drop a land. go
T5: Draw grove of the burnwillows, swing with goyf.
T5 Opponent: draws Eidolon of the great revel and pass, in response I take my punishing fire back to my hand.
T6: I draw Tarmogoyf, toast eidolon with punishing fire, cast the second tarmogoyf and swing.
T6 Opponent: He draws fireblast and cast it, down to 3.
T7 Alpha strike for the win.
Game 3
T1 opponent: he goes for suspend rift Bolt
T1: Thoughtseize, I see double goblin guide, lighning bolt, another rift and lava spike. I take out the bolt since I have double bolt and punishing fire in my hand.
T2 Opponent he cast double guide, revealing a land which I put into my hand.
T2: I sit on my 2 red mana producing land and wait.
T3Opponent: he attacks, I kill his two guide after revealing abrupt decay. He cast lava spike, suspend rift and bolt my face.
T3: I cast Scavenging ooze and deathrite shaman.
T4 Opponent: Rift bolt meets Deathrite shaman, he cast eidolon of the great revel and pass.
T4: I cast punishing fire, killing the eidolon, plays a large tarmogoyf followed by a bloodbraid elf the next turn and my opponent can't keep up. However, I finished with 2 life left.
Ok, that was a long post. Anyhow, here are my thoughts on this build.
No1
Liliana of the veil felt really underwhelming during the whole night. I know she shines in some matchup, but everytime I Drew her or had her in my hand I wish it was another card. A metagame call I guess, but I felt sad that such a powerful card was not more needed in my games.
No2
Surgical extraction however, is bonker! I love extracting key cards after a discard or wasteland. I even thought about running 4 of them and upping the number of my discard with inquisition of kozilek or duress. Again, a metagame call, but in 3 of my 4 round extracting Tezzeret, agent of bolas or thopter foundry, stasis or black vise, dark depth or thespian's stage really seemed like giving me a huge advantage in the game.
No3
Hymn to tourach is a god send. It has been one of my most played spell and favorite card for 15 years of playing magic and it never cease to impress me with the value it nets me. From discarding key cards to mana screwing your opponent, hymn to tourach is one of the strongest T2 this deck can do. T1 thougtseize into T2 hymn to tourach is my favorite opening. Hymn to tourach is a fearful card to face. Against aggro deck, it usually suppresses two creatures or burn spells before they hit the board, giving you extra turns to gain control. Against combo, a one mana discard spell may be preffered, but hymn to tourach can outright time walk you to victory. Against control, I see it has a proactive mean to out control them. Control hate randomness, and so they hate hymn to tourach. Well maybe not, I might be a bit too fan of this card.
No4 (Edit after comment from CorwinOfAmber)
About the filter land Graven Cairns, that card was previously a taiga, but I changed it for 2 reasons. The first reason is that I removed a Taiga from my list because I noticed after many months of play that I was never fetching for a Taiga early game, nor was I wishing to draw one midgame. The first land I will usually want in play is a Badlands, then a bayou. But a Taiga? I never want that. But I kept it because I liked the idea of completing the Trifecta of Taiga, Badlands, Bayou. But I grew out of it for the best of both my deck and my sanity.
The second reason I switched Taiga for Graven Cairns is that black is so present in my build that I really want to have double black on turn 2 for a hymn to tourach and ensuring a T3 Liliana of the veil. However, having 8 non-black mana producing land means you have a real chance of having no double black on T2. Having a Grove of the burnwillows or a taiga and only a black source in your opening hand when a hymn to tourach is in your hand is heart wrenching. Having Graven Cairns in my hand will assure me that T2 Hymn to tourach despite having 1 black mana producing land in my opening hand. Deathrite Shaman really helps securing your mana too.
So far I only have good words for Graven Cairns. Of course having your other land wastelanded when you only have Graven Cairns is very underwhelming, but when I have a graven cairns in hand and I fear an opposing wasteland I will fetch for a basic land.
No5(Edit after comment from CorwinOfAmber)
Scavenging Ooze is an interesting one on paper. The idea of threatening any graveyard strategies even more as soon as he comes into play, unlike deathrite shaman, is a seducing prospect. However, I have been on the fence regarding its inclusion in my sideboard, since I am thinking of including surgical extraction as a playset and I hesitate on what to remove. It looks good against creature-based deck and against the Mirror match, but so far my meta is creature light. I sided it in against Burn as I was expecting his creatures and my own creatures to pile in in the graveyard and the pump + life gain could really help me against Burn, but it was not as stellar as I thought. Despite not beeing a star in my last matches, I still feel more secure when I have it around, like a safety net. My 2 cents, however, and its only my own flawed opinion, is that the first 3 turns are so important and mana intensive that scavenging ooze might be too much of a mana investment early game to justify its inclusion in a fast meta. The reason why I love surgical extraction so much is that you can still hurt your opponent's strategy without hampering your own development. You do not want to tap out when you have a Scavenging ooze in play, that alone would give your opponent too much room to either deal with this guy or work around it. If I play it, I would play it alongside surgical and not in place of, and I would definitely play scavenging ooze in place of surgical against deck that have a lot of redundancy and no ''Key'' cards.
What do you guys think about using Surgical extraction + discard and board destruction package?
Anyways, hope it helped
About the filter land Graven Cairns, that card was previously a taiga, but I changed it for 2 reasons. The first reason is that I removed a Taiga from my list because I noticed after many months of play that I was never fetching for a Taiga early game, nor was I wishing to draw one midgame. The first land I will usually want in play is a Badland, then a bayou. But a Taiga? I never want that. But I kept it because I liked the idea of completing the Trifecta of Taiga, Badlands, Bayou. But I grew out of it for the best of both my deck and my sanity.
The second reason I switched Taiga for Graven Cairns is that black is so present in my build that I really want to have double black on turn 2 for a hymn to tourach and ensuring a T3 Liliana of the veil. However, having 8 non-black mana producing land means you have a real chance of having no double black on T2. Having a Grove of the burnwillows or a taiga and only a black source in your opening hand when a hymn to tourach is in your hand is heart wrenching. Having Graven Cairns in my hand will assure me that T2 Hymn to tourach despite having 1 black mana producing land in my opening hand. Deathrite Shaman really helps securing your mana too.
So far I only have good words for Graven Cairns. Of course having your other land wastelanded when you only have Graven Cairns is very underwhelming, but when I have a graven cairns in hand and I fear an opposing wasteland I will fetch for a basic land.
As for surgical extraction and extirpate, it may be a metagame call, but I really enjoy playing them with a discard heavy package. I haven't tried it yet, but the idea of going after their fetch lands and duals and win the ressource war seems interesting.
Scavenging Ooze is an interesting one on paper. The idea of threatening any graveyard strategies even more as soon as he comes into play, unlike deathrite shaman, is a seducing prospect. However, I have been on the fence regarding its inclusion in my sideboard, since I am thinking of including surgical extraction as a playset and I hesitate on what to remove. It looks good against creature-based deck and against the Mirror match, but so far my meta is creature light. I sided it in against Burn as I was expecting his creatures and my own creatures to pile in in the graveyard and the pump + life gain could really help me against Burn, but it was not as stellar as I thought. Despite not beeing a star in my last matches, I still feel more secure when I have it around, like a safety net. My 2 cents, however, and its only my own flawed opinion, is that the first 3 turns are so important and mana intensive that scavenging ooze might be too much of a mana investment early game to justify its inclusion in a fast meta. The reason why I love surgical extraction so much is that you can still hurt your opponent's strategy without hampering your own development. You do not want to tap out when you have a Scavenging ooze in play, that alone would give your opponent too much room to either deal with this guy or work around it. If I play it, I would play it alongside surgical and not in place of, and I would definitely play scavenging ooze in place of surgical against deck that have a lot of redundancy and no ''Key'' cards.
As for leyline of sanctity, seeing this against my decklist would blank a lot of my spells and I have no way, main deck or sideboard, to deal with this card. Fortunately I haven't seen anyone running this card in the last couple of months of attending legacy night at my lgs, but such a card raise the concern of not being able to deal with enchantement that costs more than 3. Maelstrom pulse and krosan grip are the first fix that come to my mind, and I would probably opt for maelstrom pulse for the versatility, despite krosan grip showing the middle finger to blue, can't really decide yet.
As for the Burn matchup, I was not expecting to win against it. Jund generally has a very defavorable matchup against burn, but I guess I trusted in the heart of the cards and it paid off lol.
The reason we have Scavenging Ooze in our SB is two fold: 1) It counter GY-based strategies, but also 2) many decks side in RIP against us making our Goyfs 0/1. Scavenging Ooze at a minimum is a 2/2. I've sided out a Goyf or two against decks like Miracles and sided in my Ooze so I at least have a reliable 2/2. It's much more relevant than a 0/1.
RE: Maelstrom Pulse/Krosan Grip
I understand the benefits of Grip, but the decks it excels against we already stomp (in particular UWx Miracles). We have 3/4 Abrupt Decay and 1/2 Maelstrom Pulse. That is more than enough to kill pesky permanents. I also run Golgari Charm as you mentioned and that gives me even more Enchantment kill, but also answers to True-Name. Again, Krosan Grip is good, but it almost never makes my 15 SB cards. Yes it kills Sensei's Top, but so does Decay'ing it in response to a fetchland.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress