MTG Salvation

12-Post is a really rough matchup because we have to be a beatdown deck, and we aren't suited to that. Still, I've beaten 12Post: it involved a T2 Snapcaster Mage, then another one the next turn, Entreat for 2, and a eventual Force of Will on Moment's Peace.

Miracles is a horrible "aggro/tempo" deck, but if that's the out, play to it.

Lands isn't as bad as that, the formula there is Countertop floating CMC 2 to ward off Punishing Fire, land a Jace and start ticking him up. Hold StPs to get rid of Marit Lages. There are additional situations that can come up once sideboards are involved.

Against combo decks, Vendilion Clique and Flusterstorm are great... as is graveyard hate. Combo is pretty easy to beat, I think, except for those situations that involve Boseiju. That's why we want to vary the hate, bringing Vendilions, Meddling Mages, Containment Priests so as not to be totally all-in on counterspelling stuff. There's no need to be narrow with access to three colors (and 12 filtering cantrips counting Top).

The combo deck that is not easy to beat is Food Chain because their aggro mode can beat us easily. StP stacks up mighty badly against Misthollow Griffin, and even if I manage to Terminus away a few of them, a single Manipulate Fate puts them right back.... and I would have to get pretty lucky to catch multiples with a Terminus.

@eyeownyou, the Elspeth plan is legit, and most players pack some sort of out to that very situation: something to kill Jace and handle those grindy matchups. Elspeth dodges blasts and keeps Jaces at bay, but she's not quite as resilient as Keranos (who does the same thing regarding Jace) nor does she fight grindy Shardless decks super-well. Her weakness is her softness to Vendilion Clique, and I guarantee your Miracles opponents will be bringing in the faerie against you. The choice here, as Philip noted long ago, is Keranos vs. Elspeth vs. Batterskull vs. Entreat the Angels.

I personally roll with Entreat the Angels, I feel that the deck is already well-suited to this win condition, and there are plenty of decks that just cannot deal with the angels... or if they deal with the first round of angels, they cannot answer the second.

Honorable Mention: Baneslayer Angel can be a crazy finisher, but she doesn't stack up against Jace terribly well.

Thanks for the writeup @Lormador, I've seen you giving tips for new players here and there in this thread. Really appreciate your work

I'm considering building Miracles, and found these two very helpful to get a basic understanding of philosophy, matchup analysis, and card choices. These are obviously biased towards Philipp's point of view, but I'd be lucky to have a tenth of his success, so I don't mind learning from him. A lot of the questions asked in the last few pages are already answered here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-5s5E8-KfsMpSmsShrFtDQ8tT2jFK1OnbaZOzmVN9pk/
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29405-Podcast-Everyday-Eternal-37-The-Miracle-Men/page2

Lastly, playing the deck for the first time at a major event seems ambitious!

EDIT: Remove links that the google doc links to.

So the consensus seems to be either Lossett's build of Miracles or the European Ponder version, but I think there is a different approach that is as good as either that I've been playing locally for a bit now. Instead of the 1 REB/Pyro people play in the main which can be dead against quite a few MU's (especially locally here), that replacing that slot with Cunning Wish (which can effectively the same thing) is a better way to go. There's a few things it does - it's another 3 for CB, it still lets you effectively play that blast in Game 1's and gives you more outs to hard to interact with permanents via things like Wear // Tear in the SB, or let's you find your CB with the E Tutor in the SB. It does more, but it's been a very good 1 of for me. For the same reason I haven't been too high on Council's Judgment. TNN is not really a problem for us, and it can be slow/dead against a lot of decks. Cunning Wish effectively replaces that and the blast flex spot. Similarly, I feel like Thopter/Sword isn't getting enough play and is a more inevitable way to win the game as well as give you a source of life gain that can be important in some MU's. It goes well with the Wish and E Tutor SB package as well + Academy Ruins is just a powerful interaction that a lot of decks can't really deal with. This brings us to Entreat...I think it can be powerful, but like BBD I don't like it more than a 1 of. It gives us another angle of attack coupled with the Thopter/Sword package makes playing against us even trickier (Similar to the Dark Depths / Thopter Days of yore). Because of this and our cheap selection 3 Snaps are really good especially at rebuying what we get with Wish. Between the Jace's, Thopter/Sword, and Entreat, our ability to diversify threats means not only do we have powerful ways to interact with our opponent (CounterTop, Miracles, cheap counters + removal, etc.), we also make our opponent have to have answers to 3 different ways we can take over the game. I like this better than the traditional fall-back of Entreat and Jace.

Here's the list I've been playing.

Actually, I really like that Cunning Wish idea. I'm not sure if I can follow you as far as Thopter/Sword here, but CW --> blast instead of just straight blasts seems really cool. I have all these nice instants in the board anyway... might as well put them in the main!

Quote from Lormador »

Actually, I really like that Cunning Wish idea. I'm not sure if I can follow you as far as Thopter/Sword here, but CW --> blast instead of just straight blasts seems really cool. I have all these nice instants in the board anyway... might as well put them in the main!

Cunning Wish gives you a lot more lines and outs so to speak + being hugely redundant to find what you need when you need it. Obviously you don't want more than 1, but we have a ton of ways to find our 1 ofs in the deck that it's pretty consistent. It's much better than MB blasts imho. I figure that the Thopter/Sword package will be harder for most people to swallow, but it gives us an inevitable win-condition that the deck lacks. It takes up the same amount of space as say those who run the Stoneforge + Skull package, which I think Thopter Sword is just a lot better than for us, as well as allowing you to play Academy Ruins which can buy back things like Pithing Needle or SDT if you had to have a token or two (and killed your top with Thopter Foundry for instance). For me, I've always valued having more lines of play open, and more stock Miracles lists feel more linear than I'd like - which also makes your opponents boarding against you more straightforward.

Having Entreat, Thopter/Sword, and Jace as well as Snapcaster means the deck hits on a ton of different angles, never mind CounterTop. Being able to buyback potential countered tops with Ruins is also nice, if that happens (means you can be more aggressive playing Tops on the draw/play/into counters). Cunning Wish into E Tutor also allows me to assemble the combo if I absolutely need to do so (for example to gain life, make a bunch of blockers, etc.). It's also the best win-con you can have in the mirror if you can get it under Counterbalance. Other miracles lists have no outs other than the 1 of Council's Judgment, and you have 2 Foundries for that possibility.

Dig the list, Aegraen. Do you think the fourth STP is needed, though? Seems like the fourth Counterbalance (or a singleton Blast [you can just brainstorm it away in MUs where it isn't useful, which is very few) would make more sense, assuming your meta isn't predominantly fair creature decks like Maverick. Pyroblast even hits Delver (acting as the fourth STP), which is the most common aggro deck anyway.

Hello everyone! I've just picked up the duals to play UWr miracles and I've started testing various lists. I used to play 2xVendilion Clique maindeck to help closing out games which are stalled and it worked fine for me despite it's very difficult sometimes to choose if I wanna bottom a card from my oppo's hand. Recently I came across a list Reid Duke played at a SCG Invitational and it looked really strong on camera so that's what I'm on now:



I've found the 2nd copy of Council's Judgment to be very strong most of the times. What do you guys think about 4x Counterbalance? I always played 3x but I figured that could be a meta call against Abrupt Decay decks.

For you guys who played Legacy more than I did, do you know how is Miracles against URx Delver right now? Because that seems the most played deck in my area and I want to build a list that can handle it.

reid's list is certainly one of the least popular out of the main 4 builds, but he puts up pretty consistent results with it (not many other people do, so that may just be chalked up to reid duke being reid duke). personally i go back and forth between schoneggers build and lossets build depending one whether i expect a delver/combo heavy field or a mirror heavy field.

to answer your specific questions:
councils judgement: i do not like the second one in the main here. your list has a relatively high curve and a second judgement looks to be making it extremely unwieldy. the matchups you want it against should be good matchups game one regardless. i would consider relegating it to the sideboard.

4x counterbalance: i like 4. yes they are redundant, but having multiple in play can be very useful before you get a top out. also, you dont want to go below 6 2 drops or else the triggers themselves will become ineffective. additional, dead copies give you ideal cards to pitch to FOW

as far as the URx delver matchups, you should find it favorable. they lost a lot of lategame power when they lost cruise, you should be able to grind them out. a lot of delver lists with virtually fold to the countertop lock. if this is the predominant deck in your meta, consider looking at schoneggers list, it excels at destroying the delver matchup.

also, this might get moderated out, but this legacy forum is pretty dead. id suggest putting up future discussion on mtgthesource.com as well in order to receive a more prompt response.

Quote from nwrobinson »

reid's list is certainly one of the least popular out of the main 4 builds, but he puts up pretty consistent results with it (not many other people do, so that may just be chalked up to reid duke being reid duke). personally i go back and forth between schoneggers build and lossets build depending one whether i expect a delver/combo heavy field or a mirror heavy field.

to answer your specific questions:
councils judgement: i do not like the second one in the main here. your list has a relatively high curve and a second judgement looks to be making it extremely unwieldy. the matchups you want it against should be good matchups game one regardless. i would consider relegating it to the sideboard.

4x counterbalance: i like 4. yes they are redundant, but having multiple in play can be very useful before you get a top out. also, you dont want to go below 6 2 drops or else the triggers themselves will become ineffective. additional, dead copies give you ideal cards to pitch to FOW

as far as the URx delver matchups, you should find it favorable. they lost a lot of lategame power when they lost cruise, you should be able to grind them out. a lot of delver lists with virtually fold to the countertop lock. if this is the predominant deck in your meta, consider looking at schoneggers list, it excels at destroying the delver matchup.

also, this might get moderated out, but this legacy forum is pretty dead. id suggest putting up future discussion on mtgthesource.com as well in order to receive a more prompt response.

Thank you for your answer It's always nice to have an opinion from other players. I got the same feeling about Council's Judgment playing with it. I'll try a few games with the list you suggested to see if I get a better feeling with it.

I haven't been on the thread for a very long yime nor played Miracles in quite some time. I am interested to know how does Monastery Mentor performs in Miracles? He seems pretty sweet with all the brainstorming, pondering and snapcasting of spells. Counterbalance can protect him pretty well and he can win very quickly. Sadly abrupt decay will still eat him but thats life. Just interested in players experiences.

Judging from the Source thread and the 2nd place finish at GP Kyoto, it does quite well. (Sorry, no personal experience here.)

he is quickly becoming a sideboard staple. he comes in against every fair deck because you expect them to board out all their removal spells. Joe Losset has been streaming it with a lot of success.

FWIW; as someone who is completely new to Legacy; my only "experience" is watching Joe Lossett's various deck techs, etc...

Some opinions..

I've been testing out with a proxy deck while I'm buying all the money cards; is ponder really that important...?

My deck is pretty much the same static UW/R miracles with..



I know there are some static portions to this deck that almost every list holds steady; I figured I would list the things I've changed up myself...

My main question is that is there a real "sideboarding guide" with reasons for each card, etc.

Thats the area I'm really lost on atm...

Thanks guys

-0Ne

Quote from Disturbed0Ne »

is ponder really that important...

I know there are some static portions to this deck that almost every list holds steady; I figured I would list the things I've changed up myself...

My main question is that is there a real "sideboarding guide" with reasons for each card, etc.

Re: sideboarding, read the links in the Google doc

Quote from Curby »

I'm considering building Miracles, and found these two very helpful to get a basic understanding of philosophy, matchup analysis, and card choices. These are obviously biased towards Philipp's point of view, but I'd be lucky to have a tenth of his success, so I don't mind learning from him.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-5s5E8-KfsMpSmsShrFtDQ8tT2jFK1OnbaZOzmVN9pk/
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29405-Podcast-Everyday-Eternal-37-The-Miracle-Men/page2

Re: Ponders

If you're building a Lossett list, you're not going to run Ponders. On Philipp's plan, Ponder plays a crucial role. The question isn't whether Ponder is important but rather what is the deck's intended strategy (or put another way, which decks does it want to attack) and which cards best fit that strategy.

Re: Staple or "static" vs flex slots

As an aside, you might be jumping the gun to take a highly refined build like Joe's or Philipp's and start messing with it. Miracles takes a lot of experience to run optimally, and it's hard for anyone to know what's optimal when the list is changing.

Edit: Ok now I'm even misspelling "Philipp." Maybe I should stick with saying Schoenegger.

Hi, I recently moved to UW Miracles control in legacy and this is what I have built:



Figured that the Thopter Meek combo should be a nice win-con against mirror and decks that Miracles struggles with, as it can get faster to the beatdown role and just smash them before they can set up.

The idea is to go like this:






EDIT: I think it would be smart to replace 1 RiP with 1 Rule of Law

Any advice will be highly appreciated.

I hesitate to comment without actual testing, but specifically in the Miracles mirror, that sideboard plan looks a little suspect. Against a traditional 4 Ponder, UWr Miracles list in a really grindy postboard game, on the other side of the table you'll be up against a deck that's playing:

-2 Plains
-4 Terminus
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-2 Entreat the Angels

+X Vendilion Clique
+Y Pyroblast / Red Elemental Blast
+2 Flusterstorm
+Z Engineered Explosives
+1 Council's Judgment

In the proposed sideboard plan, several really important cards have been cut (Jace, Counterbalance, Top) along with Spell Snare (which answers Counterbalance). What's coming in is a playset of Enlightened Tutors, which is card disadvantage in the best of times, and in this case almost all of the tutor's legal targets are blue. What seems likely to happen, in my estimation, is that the tutor will resolve... and the target will be red blasted, the next target Snapcaster red blasted.

I think if you're going to play a strictly UW Miracles deck the operant combo perhaps should be Rest In Peace + Helm of Obedience. There will still be trouble fighting over Counterbalance and Jace, which are essential spells, but at least the combo itself will be immune to red blasts, with RIP shut off Snapcaster and deaden the opponent's Dig Through Times.

First of all, I would like to thank for an amazing thread. I'm new to Legacy and been a huge Miracles fan since I got into the format.

I have been playing both Joes Legendary version and the more control based no creature ponder version. I always liked the creature based list more, since it gives you the beat down option when needed.

As for Monastery Mentor in the list, I absolutely love it. I started with 2 in the side, and kept siding them in for almost every match up. I had been playing 2 in the main for a while, until GP Lille happened and now Im also running 4 main.

I think its amazing and really helps the few rare matchups where you actually loose the late game.

My main doubt is the Dazes in GP Lille list, I've been trying 2-4 Dazes, and I'm not yet convinced. The biggest upside is to have them game 1, catch them by surprise, and then side them out for game 2 leaving them still playing around the Daze. Now if this becomes more popular and players already play around Daze game 1 Im not sure if I want to keep them in.

A card Ive been very impressed with lately is Blood Moon. What do you guys think about mainboarding 1-2 Blood Moons?

Well to be honest, main reason is I only have 1 Tundra / Volcanic Island so I try to capitalize on that by playing more basics and Blood Moon mainboard.

It locks out BUG lists and others with greedy land base surprisingly well. Follow it up with a Terminus and they might have a full hand with 0 playable cards.

But as I said, I'm very new to the format and still learning and appreciate ideas around the deck.

Maybe I'll post my current list in the near future and you can take a look.

I'm on 1 Tundra and 1 Volcanic Island. And Joe is also on that, Joe said on stream never missing the 2nd tundra. I haven't had any mana problems myself. We have 5 Island, 2 Plains, 1 Mountain. Tho Joe is testing a list with -1 Plains +1 additional Cavern on stream. I love tha cavern maindeck myself.

Hello, can u help me with main and side board for my meta? Zoo, Merfolks, Enchantress, Sneak'n'show, infect, Patriot, BUG

Hey everyone! So after much thought I've decided to begin to slowly get into Legacy by collecting the pieces for Miracles. I've already gotten the chance to borrow a friends Miracles deck, which is the biggest reason I've chosen the deck. Its exactly the style of Magic I enjoy playing.

All that being said, I know there are several versions of the deck that are popular and I'm not exactly sure which version I want to go with. My friend has the BBD version of the deck, with Batterskull and Stoneforge Mystic. I've also seen a version of the deck that runs a full playset of Ponders, few creatures, and Entreat the Angels, as well as the Joe Lossett version of the deck. Personally, I lean somewhat toward the BBD version of the deck, despite knowing that it makes my opponent's removal more viable game 1.

I have yet to have the chance to play with either of the other versions of the deck, so right now I'm looking for opinions of other people who have played the deck more than I have. What are your thoughts on the different versions of the deck. Which is your personal favorite? Why don't you like the other ones? Any and all input is welcome! I'm currently collecting the generic pieces for the deck that are in all versions, so I've yet to actually branch off into one specific version.

This past weekend I played Ponder Miracles at SCG:NJ finishing 11-4 for 18th place. I have been playing Miracles exclusively for the past two years in Legacy and recently shifted to the Ponder version of the deck. I wrote an article discussing how to approach many of the commonly played matchups. I would be interested in knowing your thoughts and different opinions in regards to sideboarding.

https://jefffolinus.wordpress.com/2015/11/25/miracles-by-the-matchups

Is this thread still active for discussion? It seems pretty dead. I'm new to Miracles, and I want to know people's thoughts on Monastery Mentor. (Yes, this is probably a super noob question, but it would help me grasp the deck a bit better.)

Open, not active. Most Legacy Miracles discussion seems to happen over at The Source.