[Deck] Death and Taxes

  • #26
    Quote from DalkonCledwin
    Personally I am not really that big of a fan of Quirion Ranger. At least not over Scryb Ranger. For one thing Scryb Ranger has Flash, for another it has Flying. And for a third it has Protection from Blue. The only advantage Quirion Ranger has over Scryb Ranger is that it comes down a full turn earlier than Scryb does, but honestly do we really want to be playing this type of effect on turn 1?


    I think that playing it turn one is nice only because you have more important things to do on turn two (and have less one-drops than two-drops), but more importantly, I think the cost difference matters because of GSZ, since he only ran 2 anyways and they were probably included more as tutor targets. With GSZ the Scryb costs 3, which is a lot to spend on such an effect, whereas Quirion only costs 2 at that point. The effect seems awesome. Attacking and activating Knight in one turn is brutal, and if you need a ton of mana to play multiple threats, you can tap three land, Knight one away, return one to hand untapping Knight, Knight away another land, tap the two new Knight lands, and replay the land you returned and tap it, turning three land into six if you haven't played a land for the turn yet. Hello Sun Titan! j/k.

    The "Ranger" effect is even better with Mangara, though. Since the sacrificing isn't a cost (something this deck already takes advantage of), you can tap Mangara for the effect, then respond with Ranger before passing priority, untap Mangara and tap him again for the effect again without passing priority. Then you can respond again with the usual Karakas trick for the 2-for-0, or if you lack Karakas, still net a 2-for-1 on the whole.

    Quote from nwong
    I think the only reason mono-white isn't placing is because not many people play it. Most people are attracted to the raw power of the green splash.

    I'd say going green and having more beef makes piloting this a lot easier than mono-white, since you have bigger creatures and having a clock means you will get easier wins against most decks.

    The mono-white is focused more on disruption, and playing it correctly is crucial (ie. when to port, when to play the mystic, when to play the grunt). Not that it matters of course, a difficult win is still a win. Just giving reasons why the splash builds seem so popular.


    First off, is this claim of more people playing the splash than not supported by any data? The mono-white build has been around for what seems like forever now, whereas the green splash was invented (if I'm not mistaken) by Lewis Laskin earlier this year... he was probably the only one playing it that day and took it to top 8 of a SCG tournament. That said, after his performance the popularity of the green splash certainly did take off, and the black/green splash became played shortly after. But I'm not sure they are more played than the white version, and I know that before the invention of the deck the mono-white build was around, and I'm not sure it was placing all that much.

    There is also the question of whether it's placing because more people play it, or if more people play it because it's better. That I do not know. It is possible that it is more popular than the white version, and that this is what causes it to place, and it is possible that it is more popular partly or wholly because it is "easier" to play. But I doubt someone like Laskin would choose a certain deck due to ease of play. And when you look at the Quirion Ranger interactions made possible by the green splash described above, it makes you wonder if the deck is all that easier anyways. Basically, I think you could be right about what you say but I think there are also other possible explanations, and I would be curious to see data supporting the fact that color splashes are now more popular in Taxes than the mono-white. Of course, all of my claims are just supported by SCG tournaments, and I know that other tournaments are out there. I like to go by SCG though because of the ease of accessing information about them (not just the results, but the analysis in the "Too Much Information" articles posted there as well) and because they are very large in attendance and have very good players in attendance at every event.

    Lastly, sorry for what looks in this small box like a massive post. Certainly tl;dr territory.
    Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
    U Merfolk U
    U G W NO Bant U G W
    U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
    Other Legacy Decks I Own:
    R G W Zoo! R G W
    B G W Junk B G W
    R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
    B W Deadguy B W
    W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
    G W Green & Taxes G W
    B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
    EDH Generals/Decks:
    Glissa
    Momir Vig
    Brion Stoutarm
    Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
    Arcum Daggson
  • #27
    Just so you know, people were playing the green splash long long before Lewis Laskin played it at SCG. I've already been playing it for almost a year, and there are several who've been playing it longer.

    Also, the GBW version isn't really DnT anymore. It's a rock deck that fits in Mangara and Karakas.

    Also, Quirion does not make it harder to play. When you have it, you just use the tricks. It doesn't make any decisions any harder beyond knowing which things you can untap for a trick. I think the mono-white is harder because you have to juggle so many things - deny their mana with ports, laying disruptive pieces down, and knowing when to switch to aggro to finish them off with a sword. The green splash simply doesn't have many of these decisions since it can just play stuff out. Need to answer something? Qasali pridemage can do the job. Obviously, this is oversimplifying, since as someone said, it's not on autopilot, but this is what I mean when I say the monowhite is harder to pilot.

    As for Leyline just being bounce-able, the plan is to lay it down turn 0, and then follow it up with either a Canonist or a Teeg.
    Last edited by nwong: 3/6/2011 7:45:51 PM
  • #28
    Quote from nwong
    Just so you know, people were playing the green splash long long before Lewis Laskin played it at SCG. I've already been playing it for almost a year, and there are several who've been playing it longer.

    Also, the black and green splash isn't really DnT anymore. It's a rock deck that fits in Mangara and Karakas.


    First off, what Nwong has said about the GW D&T deck is true, the build has been around for at least a year if not more now. If we want to get into what decks/splashes are D&T, one can argue that GW D&T is indeed D&T still, just a slightly more aggressive version utilizing Tarmogoyf in the Serra Avenger slot, Knight of the Reliquary in the Jotun Grunt slot and being able to have access in 2 more disruptors in Teeg and Quasli Pride-mage. So yes, I most certainly consider GW D&T.

    As far as dealing with TES and ANT, I think our matchup against those decks are better than they have been with the addition of Revoker to our deck. Not only do they have no way to remove them right away G1, combined with Ethersworn canonist from the board G2 and 3, it makes our matchups so much better. I dunno if I would call it 50/50, but it is most certainly better than it was pre-MBS.
  • #29
    thank you arnnaria. you would suggest sword of light and shadow over sword of sword of fire and ice or the other two swords?
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  • #30
    thank you arnnaria. you would suggest sword of light and shadow over sword of sword of fire and ice or the other two swords?


    I think what he meant was to do the following:

    First get a Sword of Fire and Ice

    Then get 2 Mother of Runes

    Follow that up by getting a Sword of Light and Shadows

    and follow that up by getting 2 more Mother of Runes.

    Personally I think that all 6 of those cards are quite imperative, but unless you have the Stoneforge Mystics (I can't remember if the Theme Deck comes with those or not), then it is pointless to even bother getting the swords. However if you have the Stoneforge Mystics you should try to get both Swords first, and only then get the Mother of Runes. But that also depends on how heavily you need the one drops.
    "As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
  • #31
    Poor g/w/b deck; no one wants to claim it! I don't really care too much what decks are called though. Clearly there was an evolution that started with mono-white D&T, someone figured why not splash green into that, and someone threw black into that build. I don't think it started with fitting Mangara and Karakas into Dark Horizons or some other Rock-like build, since those usually weren't aggro in nature.

    As for which deck is "harder to play," this is another thing I don't care much about. I mean, there is something to be said for playing an easier deck in a long tournament to minimize mistakes and the like, but other than that, there's no pride in playing a harder deck for its own sake imo. Play the best deck. That said, you're right that Ranger is just another trick that you use. What most people cite when claiming the mono deck is harder to pilot though is that there are more tricks. When you go green, you start taking out tricks and adding in beef. Other than that, I don't really see much of a difference in piloting. With any deck you need to figure out when to be the control and when to be the aggro, when to disrupt and when to go for the kill.

    I guess I shouldn't have said Laskin "invented" the deck; like I said, I mostly just see the SCG results and whatever I see in person. Their "deck tech" article made it seem like a new thing. But it's not crazy that people had been splashing green for much longer; people add Tarmogoyfs to pretty much anything. However, I am fairly certain that he popularized the deck. But I'd still like to see some data, or at least maybe an anecdote or two about the relative popularity of the builds. I'm not convinced that one places more often because more people are playing it.

    I don't really have a bias towards either one though; personally I'm thinking about trying a mono-colored build with some combination of arbiter and mindcensor. I think those plus wastes and ports could be a powerful level of mana denial.
    Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
    U Merfolk U
    U G W NO Bant U G W
    U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
    Other Legacy Decks I Own:
    R G W Zoo! R G W
    B G W Junk B G W
    R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
    B W Deadguy B W
    W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
    G W Green & Taxes G W
    B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
    EDH Generals/Decks:
    Glissa
    Momir Vig
    Brion Stoutarm
    Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
    Arcum Daggson
  • #32
    Dmel, Lewis is credited by folks like yourself because he was spotlighted. That is not a new phenomenon. Pros have been credited with somone else's ideas through no person's desire since at least Paul Sligh. And it is not terribly important so it continues. Lewis may have known of the green splash version all along. He is not a stranger to this site. But it hardly matters. It is a natural inclination for folks to want to access the popular cards after all. But he almost certainly began thinking about how to make his own version of the deck after facing me and talking about the deck. He used to play Vial Bant with Mystics. So green splash must have seemed a natural fit.
    Brainstorm Schmainstorm
  • #33
    Till Micheler has been playing Living&Taxes for a bit over two years now in Germany. He's top 8'd 7 times since January 2009 so the splash is hardly new, but certainly garnering more attention because Pros are piloting it.

    I'd go so far as to say that D&T will still remain a mostly rogue deck for the time being. It's difficult to have an effective sideboard against since its own sideboard is so versatile and lists vary greatly.

    Congrats on Proven Finn. Kekeke

    In fond remembrance of my mentor, Chucklezzz. Vedalken Engineer could've broke the format. If only we had more time Slant
    'Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils .'- Louis Hector Berlioz




    If you are in the Canton/Akron Ohio area and are looking to play sanctioned Legacy PM me!
  • #34
    Yeah, the rogue aspect is what confuses me regarding the whole "Proven" thing. I don't mean to knock the deck because it is good, but it seems more like an Established Competitive deck to me, whereas something like TES is still definitely a proven deck imo.

    Speaking of Living&Taxes, do people think this is sort of obsolete now that GSZ is a viable option? GSZ is limited in that it only nabs green dudes and no lands (except Dryad Arbor!), but it doesn't take up sideboard slots and costs one less mana. You can also get a Knight to search up a Karakas with it. But Living Wish seems good at grabbing Mangara since you might not want 4 of the legend in the maindeck anyways. But it seems a bit slow and doesn't offer the Dryad Arbor acceleration that GSZ does.
    Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
    U Merfolk U
    U G W NO Bant U G W
    U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
    Other Legacy Decks I Own:
    R G W Zoo! R G W
    B G W Junk B G W
    R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
    B W Deadguy B W
    W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
    G W Green & Taxes G W
    B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
    EDH Generals/Decks:
    Glissa
    Momir Vig
    Brion Stoutarm
    Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
    Arcum Daggson
  • #35
    Quote from nwong
    For the Time Spiral match, Wheel of Sun and Moon could have helped too, assuming you can find space for it. Just play it and target yourself, and it forces them to either bounce it or Stroke/Zenith you for your whole library...

    Thanks, I never thought of this.

    I DO NOT offer an opinion on which deck is better -- mono-white or green-white. But I have noticed very clearly that my friends and random players will always say, Oh why aren't you running Green-white? I think players are definitely attracted to GW because it is a little "cooler." They are approaching the question from the direction of Zoo players, or old Threshold players or other multicolor decks. It is not really based upon logic or any available facts.

    J
    Don't be a snarky dogmatist.
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  • #36
    Quote from DMel
    Yeah, the rogue aspect is what confuses me regarding the whole "Proven" thing. I don't mean to knock the deck because it is good, but it seems more like an Established Competitive deck to me, whereas something like TES is still definitely a proven deck imo.


    Proven is for decks that consistently Top 8. The ones that do it more often than others are 'Proven'. The others are 'Established'.

    Just to clarify.
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  • #37
    I have been considering Green Sun's Zenith. And I feel that much like Living Wish (at least in my opinion), neither Green Sun's Zenith nor the Wish belong in the Green / White version of this deck.

    First off with regards to the wish, you have to build a very specific sideboard to play with the wish. And unfortunately that type of sideboard does not leave you with many options for dealing with problem match ups out side of the slots you allocate to it with the living wish. And unfortunately drawing Living Wish in any given game is not nearly reliable enough, in my opinion, to warrant the inclusion of the card.

    As far as Green Sun's Zenith goes, that requires building a green based toolbox, not unlike what Survival of the Fittest used. Only it requires building it in the main deck. And unfortunately in my opinion there are not enough utilitarian Green Creatures to make such a toolbox really viable for this deck. And at any rate, most of the really good creatures for this deck (outside of Goyf, Pridemage, Knight, and Teeg) are White at any rate.
    "As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
  • #38
    I agree; I think that the green version seems "obvious" just because it's hard to think of Legacy creature decks without thinking of Goyf. But if you don't run green it opens you up to Ports, Arbiters and more disruption, plus almost as good a beater in Serra Avenger.

    I think GSZ is in decks exactly to find those four cards. Goyf, Knight and Pridemage are all amazing, so getting whichever one you need most for an extra mana is a very good effect. And they all go in your deck anyways, so the "toolbox" doesn't take up extra space. Teeg also goes in the deck, but GSZ frees you up to run only one of them if you like. But yeah, not being able to grab white dudes is kind of sad. Mostly for Mangara purposes, or Mother of Runes for that matter.
    Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
    U Merfolk U
    U G W NO Bant U G W
    U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
    Other Legacy Decks I Own:
    R G W Zoo! R G W
    B G W Junk B G W
    R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
    B W Deadguy B W
    W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
    G W Green & Taxes G W
    B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
    EDH Generals/Decks:
    Glissa
    Momir Vig
    Brion Stoutarm
    Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
    Arcum Daggson
  • #39
    As I said in previous D&T thread: Goyf is a weird creature in this deck, it has no tricks, its 'just' a big creature and a nice topdeck late game. I believe the soul of this deck is the idea of relying in creatures habilities despite its x/x.

    Just my point of view, no need to get mad at me.
  • #40
    tgodzor:
    Nobody is mad bro :-P

    I don't think there's really an argument about splashing with D&T. If you want raw power and a slightly more diverse sideboard-go ahead and splash. Obviously, it's been panning out for quite a few people. As long as you're 'core' of the deck remains similar to the description provided on the OP we can safely call it D&T.

    Just so you know, green isn't the only sideboard option. Black and Blue have been successful in the past as well, and offer just as much diversity as green. But I must say, if you're going to splash-green is probably your best route. Tarmo, Teeg, Grip, and Pridemage really help shore up a lot of troublesome matchups.

    Good luck.

    In fond remembrance of my mentor, Chucklezzz. Vedalken Engineer could've broke the format. If only we had more time Slant
    'Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils .'- Louis Hector Berlioz




    If you are in the Canton/Akron Ohio area and are looking to play sanctioned Legacy PM me!
  • #41
    Quote from t3hwo0ki3

    Just so you know, green isn't the only sideboard option. Black and Blue have been successful in the past as well, and offer just as much diversity as green. But I must say, if you're going to splash-green is probably your best route. Tarmo, Teeg, Grip, and Pridemage really help shore up a lot of troublesome matchups.

    Good luck.


    Personally, I say the biggest reason for anyone to splash green is not for any of the creatures/cards you said, but for Knight of the Reliquary. Not only is he a big beater in this deck, (Since you will be playing fetches,) But her search ability makes it easier to establish a Mangara lock should the opportunity arise. it also makes wasting your lands a waste, as you can just respond to the wasteland by searching up whatever you need and pump your knight even more.
  • #42
    Hey looking for some opinions on the correct play.

    On the draw facing down an island (basic or dual)

    You have a vial and a mom.

    Do you
    Play plains, pass
    Play plains, mom, pass
    Play plains, vial, pass
  • #43
    Quote from transfan
    Hey looking for some opinions on the correct play.

    On the draw facing down an island (basic or dual)

    You have a vial and a mom.

    Do you
    Play plains, pass
    Play plains, mom, pass
    Play plains, vial, pass


    the first turn of first game? vial definately

    first turn of second match? depends on opponent deck
  • #44
    Quote from tgodzor
    the first turn of first game? vial definately

    first turn of second match? depends on opponent deck


    My question is basically: Do you play around daze on your first turn against a deck with blue?
  • #45
    Quote from transfan
    My question is basically: Do you play around daze on your first turn against a deck with blue?


    I would also just drop the Vial. I mean, if it's Merfolk you do run the risk of both Daze and Spell Pierce, but if you don't drop anything they are still winning because of the tempo advantage and your Vial is rapidly depreciating in value. Meanwhile if they don't have the counter, you are on track for some sick tempo in turn 2 2-drop + vial in Mom at their eot. Just remember, getting a spell countered is still just a one for one. Only be concerned if they counter something you neeeeed.

    Your other decent option is to try Mom, since Vial is your better card against a deck with counters, but Vial on turn 2 is so much ungood as Vial on turn 1 that I'd just run the sucker out there. I mean, it's not itself a threat. So making them expend counters on non-threats isn't a bad thing either.
    Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
    U Merfolk U
    U G W NO Bant U G W
    U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
    Other Legacy Decks I Own:
    R G W Zoo! R G W
    B G W Junk B G W
    R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
    B W Deadguy B W
    W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
    G W Green & Taxes G W
    B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
    EDH Generals/Decks:
    Glissa
    Momir Vig
    Brion Stoutarm
    Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
    Arcum Daggson
  • #46
    Quote from Tanarin
    Personally, I say the biggest reason for anyone to splash green is not for any of the creatures/cards you said, but for Knight of the Reliquary. Not only is he a big beater in this deck, (Since you will be playing fetches,) But her search ability makes it easier to establish a Mangara lock should the opportunity arise. it also makes wasting your lands a waste, as you can just respond to the wasteland by searching up whatever you need and pump your knight even more.


    Good looking out, I can't believe I forgot that creature Redface

    I would agree wholeheartedly that KoTR is far superior to Goofy in both utility and potential p/t. However, Teeg, Pridgemage, and Grip are certainly exceptional cards to add to a W/G D&T list, so to dismiss their importance is probably a bit silly.

    In fond remembrance of my mentor, Chucklezzz. Vedalken Engineer could've broke the format. If only we had more time Slant
    'Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils .'- Louis Hector Berlioz




    If you are in the Canton/Akron Ohio area and are looking to play sanctioned Legacy PM me!
  • #47
    Quote from t3hwo0ki3
    Good looking out, I can't believe I forgot that creature Redface

    I would agree wholeheartedly that KoTR is far superior to Goofy in both utility and potential p/t. However, Teeg, Pridgemage, and Grip are certainly exceptional cards to add to a W/G D&T list, so to dismiss their importance is probably a bit silly.


    Oh I'm certainly not dismissing those cards, Especially Teeg and Pridemage. Just saying that KotR is most likely the BEST creature the deck can have IMO. Yes I rank her over Goyf, which is indeed a really good reason to be running Green. The fact she supplies an instant answer to emrakul is a nice side benefit against Show and tell/Sneak Attack decks.
  • #48
    Hey guys, I've been having trouble vs. combo elves and the ever so popular spiral tide. Sure, we bring canonist and tutors from the SB but with tide's wish sb and counterspells and elves' krosan grips and other artifact hate they bring in from the board, these matchups still seem dismal postboard. Seems like the best bet vs tide is t1 vial followed by t2 mom and t3 canonist, but its rough getting these cards together. Resolving canonist and jitte against elves would make one think they have the match, but with grips and other hate paired with wirewood symbiote its pretty hard to set up a good board position. Often, i'll resolve canonist and prevent them from comboing, but they just vomit their elves on the field one by one and produce enough mana to hardcast emrakul or use staff of domination.

    Anyone have solid success with these mus?
  • #49
    best bet vs combo elves is to play as much removal as possible against them. They rely on their creatures to power out stuff. That is where the SB Oust comes in handy as it will slow them down a turn. We are most definitely control in this matchup and you should be playing it as such. Also SB Cataclysm can be useful here as well if you need extra outs against them. Still not gonna be an easy MU for sure, but it is more winnable than ANT and TES as long as you can keep their creatures in check.
  • #50
    @ Tanarin:
    Well put, I never thought of the instant-speed shenanigans against S&T and Big stupid aliens. Again, good looking out.

    @ Forgotten:
    I'm currently working on a matchup analysis against Elves for Finn to throw up on the primer. There's really no verifiable way to beat them aside from early/mass-removal. Oust, StP, PtE, Sunlance, the surprise Planar Collapse, and of course Cataclysm. Chalice at 1 is absolutely backbreaking on them, but hurts us considerably. Ensnaring Bridge has been discussed but is only really useful against a Cheated into play'd creature.

    Time Spiral, as with any combo, is tough. Chalice isn't quite as useful here but it's not bad set at 1, and a tutor package in the board with Canonist, Wheel(targeting yourself), Runed Halo (Brain Freeze), and Thorn of Amethyst are decent foils against them. Your mainboard Revokers (if you're running them) can name Candelabra and Karakas pees on Emrakul. Rishadan Port is surprisingly good against them if they can't go off immediately and allows you time to draw your Canonists and search out additional hate.

    Good luck.

    In fond remembrance of my mentor, Chucklezzz. Vedalken Engineer could've broke the format. If only we had more time Slant
    'Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils .'- Louis Hector Berlioz




    If you are in the Canton/Akron Ohio area and are looking to play sanctioned Legacy PM me!
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