Just so you know, people were playing the green splash long long before Lewis Laskin played it at SCG. I've already been playing it for almost a year, and there are several who've been playing it longer.
Also, the black and green splash isn't really DnT anymore. It's a rock deck that fits in Mangara and Karakas.
First off, what Nwong has said about the GW D&T deck is true, the build has been around for at least a year if not more now. If we want to get into what decks/splashes are D&T, one can argue that GW D&T is indeed D&T still, just a slightly more aggressive version utilizing Tarmogoyf in the Serra Avenger slot, Knight of the Reliquary in the Jotun Grunt slot and being able to have access in 2 more disruptors in Teeg and Quasli Pride-mage. So yes, I most certainly consider GW D&T.
As far as dealing with TES and ANT, I think our matchup against those decks are better than they have been with the addition of Revoker to our deck. Not only do they have no way to remove them right away G1, combined with Ethersworn canonist from the board G2 and 3, it makes our matchups so much better. I dunno if I would call it 50/50, but it is most certainly better than it was pre-MBS.
thank you arnnaria. you would suggest sword of light and shadow over sword of sword of fire and ice or the other two swords?
I think what he meant was to do the following:
First get a Sword of Fire and Ice
Then get 2 Mother of Runes
Follow that up by getting a Sword of Light and Shadows
and follow that up by getting 2 more Mother of Runes.
Personally I think that all 6 of those cards are quite imperative, but unless you have the Stoneforge Mystics (I can't remember if the Theme Deck comes with those or not), then it is pointless to even bother getting the swords. However if you have the Stoneforge Mystics you should try to get both Swords first, and only then get the Mother of Runes. But that also depends on how heavily you need the one drops.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
Poor g/w/b deck; no one wants to claim it! I don't really care too much what decks are called though. Clearly there was an evolution that started with mono-white D&T, someone figured why not splash green into that, and someone threw black into that build. I don't think it started with fitting Mangara and Karakas into Dark Horizons or some other Rock-like build, since those usually weren't aggro in nature.
As for which deck is "harder to play," this is another thing I don't care much about. I mean, there is something to be said for playing an easier deck in a long tournament to minimize mistakes and the like, but other than that, there's no pride in playing a harder deck for its own sake imo. Play the best deck. That said, you're right that Ranger is just another trick that you use. What most people cite when claiming the mono deck is harder to pilot though is that there are more tricks. When you go green, you start taking out tricks and adding in beef. Other than that, I don't really see much of a difference in piloting. With any deck you need to figure out when to be the control and when to be the aggro, when to disrupt and when to go for the kill.
I guess I shouldn't have said Laskin "invented" the deck; like I said, I mostly just see the SCG results and whatever I see in person. Their "deck tech" article made it seem like a new thing. But it's not crazy that people had been splashing green for much longer; people add Tarmogoyfs to pretty much anything. However, I am fairly certain that he popularized the deck. But I'd still like to see some data, or at least maybe an anecdote or two about the relative popularity of the builds. I'm not convinced that one places more often because more people are playing it.
I don't really have a bias towards either one though; personally I'm thinking about trying a mono-colored build with some combination of arbiter and mindcensor. I think those plus wastes and ports could be a powerful level of mana denial.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
Dmel, Lewis is credited by folks like yourself because he was spotlighted. That is not a new phenomenon. Pros have been credited with somone else's ideas through no person's desire since at least Paul Sligh. And it is not terribly important so it continues. Lewis may have known of the green splash version all along. He is not a stranger to this site. But it hardly matters. It is a natural inclination for folks to want to access the popular cards after all. But he almost certainly began thinking about how to make his own version of the deck after facing me and talking about the deck. He used to play Vial Bant with Mystics. So green splash must have seemed a natural fit.
Till Micheler has been playing Living&Taxes for a bit over two years now in Germany. He's top 8'd 7 times since January 2009 so the splash is hardly new, but certainly garnering more attention because Pros are piloting it.
I'd go so far as to say that D&T will still remain a mostly rogue deck for the time being. It's difficult to have an effective sideboard against since its own sideboard is so versatile and lists vary greatly.
Yeah, the rogue aspect is what confuses me regarding the whole "Proven" thing. I don't mean to knock the deck because it is good, but it seems more like an Established Competitive deck to me, whereas something like TES is still definitely a proven deck imo.
Speaking of Living&Taxes, do people think this is sort of obsolete now that GSZ is a viable option? GSZ is limited in that it only nabs green dudes and no lands (except Dryad Arbor!), but it doesn't take up sideboard slots and costs one less mana. You can also get a Knight to search up a Karakas with it. But Living Wish seems good at grabbing Mangara since you might not want 4 of the legend in the maindeck anyways. But it seems a bit slow and doesn't offer the Dryad Arbor acceleration that GSZ does.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
For the Time Spiral match, Wheel of Sun and Moon could have helped too, assuming you can find space for it. Just play it and target yourself, and it forces them to either bounce it or Stroke/Zenith you for your whole library...
Thanks, I never thought of this.
I DO NOT offer an opinion on which deck is better -- mono-white or green-white. But I have noticed very clearly that my friends and random players will always say, Oh why aren't you running Green-white? I think players are definitely attracted to GW because it is a little "cooler." They are approaching the question from the direction of Zoo players, or old Threshold players or other multicolor decks. It is not really based upon logic or any available facts.
Yeah, the rogue aspect is what confuses me regarding the whole "Proven" thing. I don't mean to knock the deck because it is good, but it seems more like an Established Competitive deck to me, whereas something like TES is still definitely a proven deck imo.
Proven is for decks that consistently Top 8. The ones that do it more often than others are 'Proven'. The others are 'Established'.
I have been considering Green Sun's Zenith. And I feel that much like Living Wish (at least in my opinion), neither Green Sun's Zenith nor the Wish belong in the Green / White version of this deck.
First off with regards to the wish, you have to build a very specific sideboard to play with the wish. And unfortunately that type of sideboard does not leave you with many options for dealing with problem match ups out side of the slots you allocate to it with the living wish. And unfortunately drawing Living Wish in any given game is not nearly reliable enough, in my opinion, to warrant the inclusion of the card.
As far as Green Sun's Zenith goes, that requires building a green based toolbox, not unlike what Survival of the Fittest used. Only it requires building it in the main deck. And unfortunately in my opinion there are not enough utilitarian Green Creatures to make such a toolbox really viable for this deck. And at any rate, most of the really good creatures for this deck (outside of Goyf, Pridemage, Knight, and Teeg) are White at any rate.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
I agree; I think that the green version seems "obvious" just because it's hard to think of Legacy creature decks without thinking of Goyf. But if you don't run green it opens you up to Ports, Arbiters and more disruption, plus almost as good a beater in Serra Avenger.
I think GSZ is in decks exactly to find those four cards. Goyf, Knight and Pridemage are all amazing, so getting whichever one you need most for an extra mana is a very good effect. And they all go in your deck anyways, so the "toolbox" doesn't take up extra space. Teeg also goes in the deck, but GSZ frees you up to run only one of them if you like. But yeah, not being able to grab white dudes is kind of sad. Mostly for Mangara purposes, or Mother of Runes for that matter.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
As I said in previous D&T thread: Goyf is a weird creature in this deck, it has no tricks, its 'just' a big creature and a nice topdeck late game. I believe the soul of this deck is the idea of relying in creatures habilities despite its x/x.
I don't think there's really an argument about splashing with D&T. If you want raw power and a slightly more diverse sideboard-go ahead and splash. Obviously, it's been panning out for quite a few people. As long as you're 'core' of the deck remains similar to the description provided on the OP we can safely call it D&T.
Just so you know, green isn't the only sideboard option. Black and Blue have been successful in the past as well, and offer just as much diversity as green. But I must say, if you're going to splash-green is probably your best route. Tarmo, Teeg, Grip, and Pridemage really help shore up a lot of troublesome matchups.
Just so you know, green isn't the only sideboard option. Black and Blue have been successful in the past as well, and offer just as much diversity as green. But I must say, if you're going to splash-green is probably your best route. Tarmo, Teeg, Grip, and Pridemage really help shore up a lot of troublesome matchups.
Good luck.
Personally, I say the biggest reason for anyone to splash green is not for any of the creatures/cards you said, but for Knight of the Reliquary. Not only is he a big beater in this deck, (Since you will be playing fetches,) But her search ability makes it easier to establish a Mangara lock should the opportunity arise. it also makes wasting your lands a waste, as you can just respond to the wasteland by searching up whatever you need and pump your knight even more.
My question is basically: Do you play around daze on your first turn against a deck with blue?
I would also just drop the Vial. I mean, if it's Merfolk you do run the risk of both Daze and Spell Pierce, but if you don't drop anything they are still winning because of the tempo advantage and your Vial is rapidly depreciating in value. Meanwhile if they don't have the counter, you are on track for some sick tempo in turn 2 2-drop + vial in Mom at their eot. Just remember, getting a spell countered is still just a one for one. Only be concerned if they counter something you neeeeed.
Your other decent option is to try Mom, since Vial is your better card against a deck with counters, but Vial on turn 2 is so much ungood as Vial on turn 1 that I'd just run the sucker out there. I mean, it's not itself a threat. So making them expend counters on non-threats isn't a bad thing either.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
Personally, I say the biggest reason for anyone to splash green is not for any of the creatures/cards you said, but for Knight of the Reliquary. Not only is he a big beater in this deck, (Since you will be playing fetches,) But her search ability makes it easier to establish a Mangara lock should the opportunity arise. it also makes wasting your lands a waste, as you can just respond to the wasteland by searching up whatever you need and pump your knight even more.
Good looking out, I can't believe I forgot that creature
I would agree wholeheartedly that KoTR is far superior to Goofy in both utility and potential p/t. However, Teeg, Pridgemage, and Grip are certainly exceptional cards to add to a W/G D&T list, so to dismiss their importance is probably a bit silly.
Good looking out, I can't believe I forgot that creature
I would agree wholeheartedly that KoTR is far superior to Goofy in both utility and potential p/t. However, Teeg, Pridgemage, and Grip are certainly exceptional cards to add to a W/G D&T list, so to dismiss their importance is probably a bit silly.
Oh I'm certainly not dismissing those cards, Especially Teeg and Pridemage. Just saying that KotR is most likely the BEST creature the deck can have IMO. Yes I rank her over Goyf, which is indeed a really good reason to be running Green. The fact she supplies an instant answer to emrakul is a nice side benefit against Show and tell/Sneak Attack decks.
Hey guys, I've been having trouble vs. combo elves and the ever so popular spiral tide. Sure, we bring canonist and tutors from the SB but with tide's wish sb and counterspells and elves' krosan grips and other artifact hate they bring in from the board, these matchups still seem dismal postboard. Seems like the best bet vs tide is t1 vial followed by t2 mom and t3 canonist, but its rough getting these cards together. Resolving canonist and jitte against elves would make one think they have the match, but with grips and other hate paired with wirewood symbiote its pretty hard to set up a good board position. Often, i'll resolve canonist and prevent them from comboing, but they just vomit their elves on the field one by one and produce enough mana to hardcast emrakul or use staff of domination.
best bet vs combo elves is to play as much removal as possible against them. They rely on their creatures to power out stuff. That is where the SB Oust comes in handy as it will slow them down a turn. We are most definitely control in this matchup and you should be playing it as such. Also SB Cataclysm can be useful here as well if you need extra outs against them. Still not gonna be an easy MU for sure, but it is more winnable than ANT and TES as long as you can keep their creatures in check.
@ Tanarin:
Well put, I never thought of the instant-speed shenanigans against S&T and Big stupid aliens. Again, good looking out.
@ Forgotten:
I'm currently working on a matchup analysis against Elves for Finn to throw up on the primer. There's really no verifiable way to beat them aside from early/mass-removal. Oust, StP, PtE, Sunlance, the surprise Planar Collapse, and of course Cataclysm. Chalice at 1 is absolutely backbreaking on them, but hurts us considerably. Ensnaring Bridge has been discussed but is only really useful against a Cheated into play'd creature.
Time Spiral, as with any combo, is tough. Chalice isn't quite as useful here but it's not bad set at 1, and a tutor package in the board with Canonist, Wheel(targeting yourself), Runed Halo (Brain Freeze), and Thorn of Amethyst are decent foils against them. Your mainboard Revokers (if you're running them) can name Candelabra and Karakas pees on Emrakul. Rishadan Port is surprisingly good against them if they can't go off immediately and allows you time to draw your Canonists and search out additional hate.
So happy to see D+T has proven itself Proven-worthy. It has come a long way, baby.
While pilots everywhere have been helping show what D+T is really capable of, I have also been enjoying my share of the proven pie, with a very respectable display of tricks before the Quebec MtG community, a few Saturdays back. I could probably write about it until my fingers fall off, but I'll stick to a mini-report.
February 19th, 2011 - 9 a.m.
After a two-hour drive from Montreal, we arrive in Quebec City just in time to register for the 10$ buy-in Legacy event at l'Imaginaire - a stunning store to see if you're ever in the area. 34 people showed. I'm with Goyf and Taxes, feat. Revokers in SB. The two friends I came with are piloting Bomberman and CT Goyf.
Rd 1. I'm paired up against my colleague Bomberman. Grr. Since the tourney is 6 rounds, top 8, we decide to ID. That way, neither of us has to win all his following MUs -- we can each top 8 by losing at most one of the next five rounds. Upside: we get to scout the place. Nothing surprising for the meta, plenty of Countertops, Zoos, and Sneaky Tell decks. Also: I'm stunned to see a guy hardcasting Emrakul-- with Cloudposts! (What a mana base, those twelve posts... but that is a topic for another sermon.)
0-0-1
Rd 2. Nice guy, playing BGw Hexmage/Dark Depths. Game 1 he Thoughtseizes me tossing my StP, on his side I soon see him play Hexmage so I know what he's getting at. I fear Pernicious Deed, though you wouldn't think it with my board showing Vial (@3), Mom, Goyf, Serra Avenger. The turn he uses his 5 lands to play Deed and crack it for 2, I mentally jump for joy as I vial in Wisp in response, moving Goyf out of the way. Goyf comes back EOT, as he should, and I've never looked so good post-Deed. Game 2 he still hasn't seen my Karakases, so I sandbag the one in my opening hand until turn 5, aka the turn after he Livish Wishes for Dark Depths, assembling the combo. He is deflated and pleasantly explains how normally he has outs for Karakas. I do not add to his wound the lemon juice that is his 20/20 token could simply be Flickerwisp'd too.
1-0-1
Rd 3. Dredge. So Game 1 I StP his turn 1 Putrid Imp, he has no response. Okay, no dredgers in hand. He plays turn 2 Tireless Tribe, and goes on to not find one dredger during his next 5 turns, while I'm swinging with Qasali unabated. Easiest game 1 vs Ichorid ever. I side in about 10 cards for Game 2. My notes say nothing, my life total never moved from 20. I remember getting Jitte online fast so I'd be ready to poke one of my own dudes should I need to remove his Bridge from Below(s).
2-0-1
Rd 4. He's piloting some kind of "Dark Zoo", B instead of W, running Dark Confidant. Game 1 he starts with a Grim Lavamancer. I love this, I don't have to guess what to use my StP on. I give him a life. He sets up with a Goyf and a Kird Ape, but I've got Goyf too, and a Mom... and I've got a flyer. SoFI-equipped Serra Avenger over your board FTW. Game 2 I lose following one of my most memorable misplays: he has Grim Lavamancer online during my turn, I have SoFI, two small dudes, and 5 lands up including a Horizon Canopy. I know he can respond to my equip by burning off the creature, so I would have to equip twice this turn. I hate Grim Lavamancer, so much, so the first thing I do is think of StP, and how if I sack Canopy I could draw one, y'never know... only, turns out that leaves me with 3 lands up. So yeah, I equip, he Grim's in response... the game was mine and now I have shot myself in the foot in a way I can't recover from. Game 3, so one-sided, I StP his good stuff putting him at 24 life and a puny board. He has to throw Apes in front of my SoFI-quipped Goyf until he runs out, so Goyf now swings freely into him for 5+2, then 6+2, then 7+2... which adds up to 24 I may be basing my opinion on this encounter alone, but Zoo without W, without Path to Exile, sucks hard.
3-0-1
Rd 5. Bant Aggro, and oh lordy! how Rhox War Monk is a tough creature to be pit up against. Despite, my valiant Moms combined with timely StP's do the trick, and my flyers do what they do and fly over his rhinos, and I take this MU down 2-0.
4-0-1
Rd 6. I ID with the guy I saw earlier playing Twelve Post. Sweet as hell: I have strictly no idea how this match-up would have gone, everything would have been a surprise.
4-0-2
Quarterfinals. He's playing GW Aggro with Knight of the Reliquary and Obstinate Baloth. My Flickerwisps fly too much and are too equipped, I win it in two.
I split the store-credit prize pool with the rest of the Top 4. I'm feeling more in the zone than I've ever felt: I haven't lost a match all day... I've only lost one game! It's past 5 p.m., everyone goes home to do something other than play Magic, save my two friends and I, who pile into the car and speed to Drummondville for a Legacy event starting at 7. We share war stories on the way.
February 19th, 2011 - 7:10 p.m.
We had called the store owner to advise we were running a bit late. This pleasant and modest store hosts a 10$ Legacy event every month, and their weird tourney hours are what is allowing my crew to organize such a rockin' two-tourney road trip. We don't expect a huge turnout for this one, so when 18 people show we're still pleased. They announce it will be four rounds cut to top 4.
Rd 1. This pilot's mono green deck is trying to ramp into Eldrazi fatties with Spawn tokens, but this is Legacy and we do things differently (read "faster"). My Goyfs take him down.
1-0
Rd 2. Goblins (with Warren Instigators and Kiki-Jiki). I was wondering when I'd have to fight Goblins today. Game 1, our board positions feel even for a number of turns, and my flying Flickerwisp is acting as a 7-turn clock. Unfortunately, Gobs do what they do so quickly! He lands a flawless Ringleader, then spews his hand onto the board and alpha strikes me with a hasty wind of gobliny violence. Okay, they come fast, prima facie board position means next to nothing, duly noted. Game 2, I play tighter and take nothing for granted. I vial in a Serra Avenger for yet another surprise blocker, and the full art vigilant beauty is SoFI-quipped soon afterwards. Goblins are not amused. Game 3 is a long drawn-out board stall, with much creature-trading in combat. I'm doing my best to limit his number of Lackey triggers but I can't stop them all. My opponent puts a free Kiki-Jiki into play, and in his excitement his omits to notice that my Karakas can bounce it, which it proceeds to do EOT. This swings the board-stall my way, and I breathe a sigh of relief as I strike in the air for the win.
2-0
Rd 3. Mystic Control - I didn't know this deck was still played. But then, Stoneforge + equipments = awesome for other people too, and he gets the added fun of Spellstutter Sprites and Mutavaults. Game 1, I lose a Goyf while learning he plays Spell Snare maindeck, but it doesn't stop Serra Avenger from beating his face. No equipments needed here, except when I play Jitte to Legend-rule his. Vigilance is simply BOSS, it's so often like having two creatures in one, especially in the creature-heavy meta we were expecting. Game 2, StP his V Clique before the trigger resolves is the only key play. I want to own the skies and Clique is the only thing preventing that. The last play of the night has me swing for the win with Goyf and Serra Avenger. I'd like to make a point of mentioning that Goyf is total roxx in this deck. Goyf may be vanilla, but some flavors of vanilla is be delicious. If this doesn't persuade you, then playtest and persuade yourself.
I ID'd round 4 with my Montreal colleague, who decided to shelf his CT Goyf and play Junk for this tourney. Dunno how that MU would've gone either. We then split at top 4 with two locals, and I use my store credit to obtain some Posts.
By midnight we're back in Montreal, and I have the privilege of being left with memories of one of the strongest, most confident performances I've ever been graced to put on display. These tricks, how I love these tricks.
Over the course of that Saturday, I only had the one-Mangara-activation-per-turn lock online once. That being said, the threat of my getting it online came about quite a few times, and the fact that is was must-deal-with for my opponent granted me time and resources to kill him otherwise. Also, my decision to keep the Serra Avenger build, rather than play Knight of the Reliquary, turned out to be spot on. This build only has 4 Wisps and 3 Mangaras as creatures on the 3 CMC spot, so I'm playing with Vial@2 until I don't need it there anymore and move it up, and I get to avoid that awful (and much too frequent) feeling of having Vial@3 but wanting it back @2.
I'm not doubting the strength of Knight of the Reliquary, far from it. But choosing him over something else takes the build in a significantly different direction altogether. Pilots beware. As for me, I'm sticking to the full-on aggro feel of D+T.
I do regret not having taken more notes with regards to my sideboarding. I could go back for each MU and say "I probably boarded this in and took this out", but I think my girlfriend would kill me because I have a date with her to watch a flick now. I will say that the Revokers were big fun, had a useful target each time they were played, and they've now solidly earned their two slots in my SB.
I'd also like to add my voice to that of those who've thanked Finn for this deck and its continued development and support. This deck and this forum are things I'm proud to be a part of, and I won't try running the stats on how much of it is thanks to you. Hurray for lovers of tricks! :D:cool::D
@t3ewo0kie: NP dude, that is what we are all here for. I still think our S&T MU can be better since S&T also plays Big Hydra from Hell. I still don't feel comfortable with it, but it is the best option we have so far outside of wing shards.
Also congrats on the sweet weekend delcarmen. Your post has reminded me though about a subject that should be addressed, the 12-Post deck. For those who are curious here is a sample decklist from the last thread:
Now the concern I have here is just what can we do to stop it. I keep looking at the deck and I am having trouble on what mono w can do to stop this deck. For the most part it lacks creatures so our spot removal is a no go. We could name Revoker on Candleabra, but this deck can just grind it out via multiple Locus lands/Eye of Ugin. On top of that he brings in a lot of Artifact hate SB which makes the problem even worse. Karakas is a no go here if he hardcasts Emrakul, which is what this deck is trying to do. So if someone has this deck, what options do we have?
It is basically a standard GW D&T deck with the twist of adding the Natural order and Progentus package. Took 7th at an event 2 weeks ago. I dunno about the use of SDT and Scryb Ranger in the deck, but it is certainly a twist to the standard GW D&T. I would personally play -1 Ranger, -2 SDT, -2 Jotun Grunt and add in +1 Progenitus, +4 KotR.
First off, what Nwong has said about the GW D&T deck is true, the build has been around for at least a year if not more now. If we want to get into what decks/splashes are D&T, one can argue that GW D&T is indeed D&T still, just a slightly more aggressive version utilizing Tarmogoyf in the Serra Avenger slot, Knight of the Reliquary in the Jotun Grunt slot and being able to have access in 2 more disruptors in Teeg and Quasli Pride-mage. So yes, I most certainly consider GW D&T.
As far as dealing with TES and ANT, I think our matchup against those decks are better than they have been with the addition of Revoker to our deck. Not only do they have no way to remove them right away G1, combined with Ethersworn canonist from the board G2 and 3, it makes our matchups so much better. I dunno if I would call it 50/50, but it is most certainly better than it was pre-MBS.
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I think what he meant was to do the following:
First get a Sword of Fire and Ice
Then get 2 Mother of Runes
Follow that up by getting a Sword of Light and Shadows
and follow that up by getting 2 more Mother of Runes.
Personally I think that all 6 of those cards are quite imperative, but unless you have the Stoneforge Mystics (I can't remember if the Theme Deck comes with those or not), then it is pointless to even bother getting the swords. However if you have the Stoneforge Mystics you should try to get both Swords first, and only then get the Mother of Runes. But that also depends on how heavily you need the one drops.
As for which deck is "harder to play," this is another thing I don't care much about. I mean, there is something to be said for playing an easier deck in a long tournament to minimize mistakes and the like, but other than that, there's no pride in playing a harder deck for its own sake imo. Play the best deck. That said, you're right that Ranger is just another trick that you use. What most people cite when claiming the mono deck is harder to pilot though is that there are more tricks. When you go green, you start taking out tricks and adding in beef. Other than that, I don't really see much of a difference in piloting. With any deck you need to figure out when to be the control and when to be the aggro, when to disrupt and when to go for the kill.
I guess I shouldn't have said Laskin "invented" the deck; like I said, I mostly just see the SCG results and whatever I see in person. Their "deck tech" article made it seem like a new thing. But it's not crazy that people had been splashing green for much longer; people add Tarmogoyfs to pretty much anything. However, I am fairly certain that he popularized the deck. But I'd still like to see some data, or at least maybe an anecdote or two about the relative popularity of the builds. I'm not convinced that one places more often because more people are playing it.
I don't really have a bias towards either one though; personally I'm thinking about trying a mono-colored build with some combination of arbiter and mindcensor. I think those plus wastes and ports could be a powerful level of mana denial.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
I'd go so far as to say that D&T will still remain a mostly rogue deck for the time being. It's difficult to have an effective sideboard against since its own sideboard is so versatile and lists vary greatly.
Congrats on Proven Finn.
WW Death & Taxes
GG Control
RR Skred Red
Speaking of Living&Taxes, do people think this is sort of obsolete now that GSZ is a viable option? GSZ is limited in that it only nabs green dudes and no lands (except Dryad Arbor!), but it doesn't take up sideboard slots and costs one less mana. You can also get a Knight to search up a Karakas with it. But Living Wish seems good at grabbing Mangara since you might not want 4 of the legend in the maindeck anyways. But it seems a bit slow and doesn't offer the Dryad Arbor acceleration that GSZ does.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
Thanks, I never thought of this.
I DO NOT offer an opinion on which deck is better -- mono-white or green-white. But I have noticed very clearly that my friends and random players will always say, Oh why aren't you running Green-white? I think players are definitely attracted to GW because it is a little "cooler." They are approaching the question from the direction of Zoo players, or old Threshold players or other multicolor decks. It is not really based upon logic or any available facts.
J
Proven is for decks that consistently Top 8. The ones that do it more often than others are 'Proven'. The others are 'Established'.
Just to clarify.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
First off with regards to the wish, you have to build a very specific sideboard to play with the wish. And unfortunately that type of sideboard does not leave you with many options for dealing with problem match ups out side of the slots you allocate to it with the living wish. And unfortunately drawing Living Wish in any given game is not nearly reliable enough, in my opinion, to warrant the inclusion of the card.
As far as Green Sun's Zenith goes, that requires building a green based toolbox, not unlike what Survival of the Fittest used. Only it requires building it in the main deck. And unfortunately in my opinion there are not enough utilitarian Green Creatures to make such a toolbox really viable for this deck. And at any rate, most of the really good creatures for this deck (outside of Goyf, Pridemage, Knight, and Teeg) are White at any rate.
I think GSZ is in decks exactly to find those four cards. Goyf, Knight and Pridemage are all amazing, so getting whichever one you need most for an extra mana is a very good effect. And they all go in your deck anyways, so the "toolbox" doesn't take up extra space. Teeg also goes in the deck, but GSZ frees you up to run only one of them if you like. But yeah, not being able to grab white dudes is kind of sad. Mostly for Mangara purposes, or Mother of Runes for that matter.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
Just my point of view, no need to get mad at me.
Nobody is mad bro :-P
I don't think there's really an argument about splashing with D&T. If you want raw power and a slightly more diverse sideboard-go ahead and splash. Obviously, it's been panning out for quite a few people. As long as you're 'core' of the deck remains similar to the description provided on the OP we can safely call it D&T.
Just so you know, green isn't the only sideboard option. Black and Blue have been successful in the past as well, and offer just as much diversity as green. But I must say, if you're going to splash-green is probably your best route. Tarmo, Teeg, Grip, and Pridemage really help shore up a lot of troublesome matchups.
Good luck.
WW Death & Taxes
GG Control
RR Skred Red
Personally, I say the biggest reason for anyone to splash green is not for any of the creatures/cards you said, but for Knight of the Reliquary. Not only is he a big beater in this deck, (Since you will be playing fetches,) But her search ability makes it easier to establish a Mangara lock should the opportunity arise. it also makes wasting your lands a waste, as you can just respond to the wasteland by searching up whatever you need and pump your knight even more.
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On the draw facing down an island (basic or dual)
You have a vial and a mom.
Do you
Play plains, pass
Play plains, mom, pass
Play plains, vial, pass
the first turn of first game? vial definately
first turn of second match? depends on opponent deck
My question is basically: Do you play around daze on your first turn against a deck with blue?
I would also just drop the Vial. I mean, if it's Merfolk you do run the risk of both Daze and Spell Pierce, but if you don't drop anything they are still winning because of the tempo advantage and your Vial is rapidly depreciating in value. Meanwhile if they don't have the counter, you are on track for some sick tempo in turn 2 2-drop + vial in Mom at their eot. Just remember, getting a spell countered is still just a one for one. Only be concerned if they counter something you neeeeed.
Your other decent option is to try Mom, since Vial is your better card against a deck with counters, but Vial on turn 2 is so much ungood as Vial on turn 1 that I'd just run the sucker out there. I mean, it's not itself a threat. So making them expend counters on non-threats isn't a bad thing either.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
Good looking out, I can't believe I forgot that creature
I would agree wholeheartedly that KoTR is far superior to Goofy in both utility and potential p/t. However, Teeg, Pridgemage, and Grip are certainly exceptional cards to add to a W/G D&T list, so to dismiss their importance is probably a bit silly.
WW Death & Taxes
GG Control
RR Skred Red
Oh I'm certainly not dismissing those cards, Especially Teeg and Pridemage. Just saying that KotR is most likely the BEST creature the deck can have IMO. Yes I rank her over Goyf, which is indeed a really good reason to be running Green. The fact she supplies an instant answer to emrakul is a nice side benefit against Show and tell/Sneak Attack decks.
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Anyone have solid success with these mus?
Come join us in the MTGSalvation chat ||| My trade thread. ||| My Personal Modern Blog: The Fetchlands
Well put, I never thought of the instant-speed shenanigans against S&T and Big stupid aliens. Again, good looking out.
@ Forgotten:
I'm currently working on a matchup analysis against Elves for Finn to throw up on the primer. There's really no verifiable way to beat them aside from early/mass-removal. Oust, StP, PtE, Sunlance, the surprise Planar Collapse, and of course Cataclysm. Chalice at 1 is absolutely backbreaking on them, but hurts us considerably. Ensnaring Bridge has been discussed but is only really useful against a Cheated into play'd creature.
Time Spiral, as with any combo, is tough. Chalice isn't quite as useful here but it's not bad set at 1, and a tutor package in the board with Canonist, Wheel(targeting yourself), Runed Halo (Brain Freeze), and Thorn of Amethyst are decent foils against them. Your mainboard Revokers (if you're running them) can name Candelabra and Karakas pees on Emrakul. Rishadan Port is surprisingly good against them if they can't go off immediately and allows you time to draw your Canonists and search out additional hate.
Good luck.
WW Death & Taxes
GG Control
RR Skred Red
While pilots everywhere have been helping show what D+T is really capable of, I have also been enjoying my share of the proven pie, with a very respectable display of tricks before the Quebec MtG community, a few Saturdays back. I could probably write about it until my fingers fall off, but I'll stick to a mini-report.
February 19th, 2011 - 9 a.m.
After a two-hour drive from Montreal, we arrive in Quebec City just in time to register for the 10$ buy-in Legacy event at l'Imaginaire - a stunning store to see if you're ever in the area. 34 people showed. I'm with Goyf and Taxes, feat. Revokers in SB. The two friends I came with are piloting Bomberman and CT Goyf.
Rd 1. I'm paired up against my colleague Bomberman. Grr. Since the tourney is 6 rounds, top 8, we decide to ID. That way, neither of us has to win all his following MUs -- we can each top 8 by losing at most one of the next five rounds. Upside: we get to scout the place. Nothing surprising for the meta, plenty of Countertops, Zoos, and Sneaky Tell decks. Also: I'm stunned to see a guy hardcasting Emrakul-- with Cloudposts! (What a mana base, those twelve posts... but that is a topic for another sermon.)
0-0-1
Rd 2. Nice guy, playing BGw Hexmage/Dark Depths. Game 1 he Thoughtseizes me tossing my StP, on his side I soon see him play Hexmage so I know what he's getting at. I fear Pernicious Deed, though you wouldn't think it with my board showing Vial (@3), Mom, Goyf, Serra Avenger. The turn he uses his 5 lands to play Deed and crack it for 2, I mentally jump for joy as I vial in Wisp in response, moving Goyf out of the way. Goyf comes back EOT, as he should, and I've never looked so good post-Deed. Game 2 he still hasn't seen my Karakases, so I sandbag the one in my opening hand until turn 5, aka the turn after he Livish Wishes for Dark Depths, assembling the combo. He is deflated and pleasantly explains how normally he has outs for Karakas. I do not add to his wound the lemon juice that is his 20/20 token could simply be Flickerwisp'd too.
1-0-1
Rd 3. Dredge. So Game 1 I StP his turn 1 Putrid Imp, he has no response. Okay, no dredgers in hand. He plays turn 2 Tireless Tribe, and goes on to not find one dredger during his next 5 turns, while I'm swinging with Qasali unabated. Easiest game 1 vs Ichorid ever. I side in about 10 cards for Game 2. My notes say nothing, my life total never moved from 20. I remember getting Jitte online fast so I'd be ready to poke one of my own dudes should I need to remove his Bridge from Below(s).
2-0-1
Rd 4. He's piloting some kind of "Dark Zoo", B instead of W, running Dark Confidant. Game 1 he starts with a Grim Lavamancer. I love this, I don't have to guess what to use my StP on. I give him a life. He sets up with a Goyf and a Kird Ape, but I've got Goyf too, and a Mom... and I've got a flyer. SoFI-equipped Serra Avenger over your board FTW. Game 2 I lose following one of my most memorable misplays: he has Grim Lavamancer online during my turn, I have SoFI, two small dudes, and 5 lands up including a Horizon Canopy. I know he can respond to my equip by burning off the creature, so I would have to equip twice this turn. I hate Grim Lavamancer, so much, so the first thing I do is think of StP, and how if I sack Canopy I could draw one, y'never know... only, turns out that leaves me with 3 lands up. So yeah, I equip, he Grim's in response... the game was mine and now I have shot myself in the foot in a way I can't recover from. Game 3, so one-sided, I StP his good stuff putting him at 24 life and a puny board. He has to throw Apes in front of my SoFI-quipped Goyf until he runs out, so Goyf now swings freely into him for 5+2, then 6+2, then 7+2... which adds up to 24 I may be basing my opinion on this encounter alone, but Zoo without W, without Path to Exile, sucks hard.
3-0-1
Rd 5. Bant Aggro, and oh lordy! how Rhox War Monk is a tough creature to be pit up against. Despite, my valiant Moms combined with timely StP's do the trick, and my flyers do what they do and fly over his rhinos, and I take this MU down 2-0.
4-0-1
Rd 6. I ID with the guy I saw earlier playing Twelve Post. Sweet as hell: I have strictly no idea how this match-up would have gone, everything would have been a surprise.
4-0-2
Quarterfinals. He's playing GW Aggro with Knight of the Reliquary and Obstinate Baloth. My Flickerwisps fly too much and are too equipped, I win it in two.
I split the store-credit prize pool with the rest of the Top 4. I'm feeling more in the zone than I've ever felt: I haven't lost a match all day... I've only lost one game! It's past 5 p.m., everyone goes home to do something other than play Magic, save my two friends and I, who pile into the car and speed to Drummondville for a Legacy event starting at 7. We share war stories on the way.
February 19th, 2011 - 7:10 p.m.
We had called the store owner to advise we were running a bit late. This pleasant and modest store hosts a 10$ Legacy event every month, and their weird tourney hours are what is allowing my crew to organize such a rockin' two-tourney road trip. We don't expect a huge turnout for this one, so when 18 people show we're still pleased. They announce it will be four rounds cut to top 4.
Rd 1. This pilot's mono green deck is trying to ramp into Eldrazi fatties with Spawn tokens, but this is Legacy and we do things differently (read "faster"). My Goyfs take him down.
1-0
Rd 2. Goblins (with Warren Instigators and Kiki-Jiki). I was wondering when I'd have to fight Goblins today. Game 1, our board positions feel even for a number of turns, and my flying Flickerwisp is acting as a 7-turn clock. Unfortunately, Gobs do what they do so quickly! He lands a flawless Ringleader, then spews his hand onto the board and alpha strikes me with a hasty wind of gobliny violence. Okay, they come fast, prima facie board position means next to nothing, duly noted. Game 2, I play tighter and take nothing for granted. I vial in a Serra Avenger for yet another surprise blocker, and the full art vigilant beauty is SoFI-quipped soon afterwards. Goblins are not amused. Game 3 is a long drawn-out board stall, with much creature-trading in combat. I'm doing my best to limit his number of Lackey triggers but I can't stop them all. My opponent puts a free Kiki-Jiki into play, and in his excitement his omits to notice that my Karakas can bounce it, which it proceeds to do EOT. This swings the board-stall my way, and I breathe a sigh of relief as I strike in the air for the win.
2-0
Rd 3. Mystic Control - I didn't know this deck was still played. But then, Stoneforge + equipments = awesome for other people too, and he gets the added fun of Spellstutter Sprites and Mutavaults. Game 1, I lose a Goyf while learning he plays Spell Snare maindeck, but it doesn't stop Serra Avenger from beating his face. No equipments needed here, except when I play Jitte to Legend-rule his. Vigilance is simply BOSS, it's so often like having two creatures in one, especially in the creature-heavy meta we were expecting. Game 2, StP his V Clique before the trigger resolves is the only key play. I want to own the skies and Clique is the only thing preventing that. The last play of the night has me swing for the win with Goyf and Serra Avenger. I'd like to make a point of mentioning that Goyf is total roxx in this deck. Goyf may be vanilla, but some flavors of vanilla is be delicious. If this doesn't persuade you, then playtest and persuade yourself.
I ID'd round 4 with my Montreal colleague, who decided to shelf his CT Goyf and play Junk for this tourney. Dunno how that MU would've gone either. We then split at top 4 with two locals, and I use my store credit to obtain some Posts.
By midnight we're back in Montreal, and I have the privilege of being left with memories of one of the strongest, most confident performances I've ever been graced to put on display. These tricks, how I love these tricks.
Over the course of that Saturday, I only had the one-Mangara-activation-per-turn lock online once. That being said, the threat of my getting it online came about quite a few times, and the fact that is was must-deal-with for my opponent granted me time and resources to kill him otherwise. Also, my decision to keep the Serra Avenger build, rather than play Knight of the Reliquary, turned out to be spot on. This build only has 4 Wisps and 3 Mangaras as creatures on the 3 CMC spot, so I'm playing with Vial@2 until I don't need it there anymore and move it up, and I get to avoid that awful (and much too frequent) feeling of having Vial@3 but wanting it back @2.
I'm not doubting the strength of Knight of the Reliquary, far from it. But choosing him over something else takes the build in a significantly different direction altogether. Pilots beware. As for me, I'm sticking to the full-on aggro feel of D+T.
I do regret not having taken more notes with regards to my sideboarding. I could go back for each MU and say "I probably boarded this in and took this out", but I think my girlfriend would kill me because I have a date with her to watch a flick now. I will say that the Revokers were big fun, had a useful target each time they were played, and they've now solidly earned their two slots in my SB.
So, without further ado, lol, here's my list.
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
4 Plains
1 Forest
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Serra Avenger
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
2 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Path to Exile
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Runed Halo
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Phyrexian Revoker
I'd also like to add my voice to that of those who've thanked Finn for this deck and its continued development and support. This deck and this forum are things I'm proud to be a part of, and I won't try running the stats on how much of it is thanks to you. Hurray for lovers of tricks! :D:cool::D
Also congrats on the sweet weekend delcarmen. Your post has reminded me though about a subject that should be addressed, the 12-Post deck. For those who are curious here is a sample decklist from the last thread:
01x Bojuka Bog
04x Cloudpost
01x Eye of Ugin
04x Glimmerpost
01x Island
04x Misty Rainforest
01x Polluted Delta
04x Tropical Island
04x Vesuva
Creatures:
02x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
01x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
02x Primeval Titan
04x Trinket Mage
03x All is Dust
03x Candelabra of Tawnos
03x Crop Rotation
03x Expedition Map
04x Force of Will
01x Pithing Needle
03x Repeal
03x Sensei's Divining Top
04x Thirst for Knowledge
01x Chalice of the Void
01x Coalition Relic
01x Engineered Explosives
02x Hurkyl's Recall
03x Mindbreak Trap
01x Pithing Needle
03x Propaganda
02x Tarmogoyf
01x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Now the concern I have here is just what can we do to stop it. I keep looking at the deck and I am having trouble on what mono w can do to stop this deck. For the most part it lacks creatures so our spot removal is a no go. We could name Revoker on Candleabra, but this deck can just grind it out via multiple Locus lands/Eye of Ugin. On top of that he brings in a lot of Artifact hate SB which makes the problem even worse. Karakas is a no go here if he hardcasts Emrakul, which is what this deck is trying to do. So if someone has this deck, what options do we have?
Edit2: Found this deck while browsing for an answer to another post:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=1155&d=209932
It is basically a standard GW D&T deck with the twist of adding the Natural order and Progentus package. Took 7th at an event 2 weeks ago. I dunno about the use of SDT and Scryb Ranger in the deck, but it is certainly a twist to the standard GW D&T. I would personally play -1 Ranger, -2 SDT, -2 Jotun Grunt and add in +1 Progenitus, +4 KotR.
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