As much as card draw from Wall of Omens could be good, don't you miss being able to inflict blocking damage or swing using Jotun Grunt?
In my mono W build what i need are solid creatures that could protect me not a clown that will die after 2-3 turns. Yes jotun is excellent against GY decks and could act as temporary clock but in my build i don't go for the quick win i really on locking my opponents or controlling the board before i go on the offensive.
For your reference my mono w build
Lands [22]
2 flagstones of trokair
4 wasteland
3 rishadan port
3 karakas
10 plains
Spells [13]
4 swords to plowshares
4 aether vial
2 cataclysm
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sword of light and shadow
Creatures [25]
4 mother of runes
3 wall of omens
3 stoneforge mystic
4 serra avenger
2 priest of norm
3 flickerwisp
3 managarra
3 mirran crusader
In metas where Dredge is not too much of a factor, I can certainly see Grunt being replaced by other beaters. The thing is though Jotun grunt is a card that is still worth it's value later in the game vs several decks. Not only that he has the ability to shrink Goyfs singlehandly, which are indeed very prevalent in Legacy. Not only that, now that Team America is making a slight comeback, having something that raises tombstalker's cost is not a bad card.
I have mirran saders to take care of tarmo or kotr, i guess it depends on each players preferences and game style i like my mono w to be a control-aggro shell thats why i have 5 defensive creatures on my list, the priests where a late addition i used to run phyrexian revokers in that spot but found out to be sub par as it easily dies to almost all removal and can't block anything. Im still testing the priest but i might change it to orings or knight exemplar.
Wouldn't the Priests just be better off as Oblivion Rings? The O-ring takes out their scariest permanent, whereas Priest just blocks and shrinks something and is irrelevant if you're not facing an aggro deck. O-ring also gives you a not insignificant chance at a two-for-one. And neither O-ring nor Priests can really attack profitably.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
I want to bring up a couple of topics.
1. Path to Exile. I have tried this and I did not like it, but I did not try it A LOT. Normally I would simply remember that a card is awful and move on. But there are quite a few people who disagree with me at The Source. And they are not quiet about it. The arguments being made are mostly poorly thought-out, but not all of them.
I really want to get to the bottom of this. Does anyone here have any opinion about this matter? Keep in mind that the typical stuff like "just don't use it early" and "the life gain is a problem' are certainly not going to fly. I think that we can all agree that STP is the better primary choice. I am more interested in if anyone has an opinion on it versus Oust. Or perhaps something else. Or (like most of you are currently doing) nothing at all. Furthermore, any opinions on how green splash versions differ on this matter. Thanks in advance for thoughtful input.
Were I a more experienced monowhite D+T pilot, I could surely contribute more meaningfully to the PtE debate. I can imagine how Porting an opponent's land then granting him a basic feels like you're tripping on your own feet, but I can't bring forth any solid playing experience to back it up.
From the green splash perspective, Path to Exile remains the best 2nd option after StP, hands down. I may run a set of Wastelands, but I'm seldom in the business of mana denial. I've had some attempts at playing a mana denial strategy when my opener was a keepable hand with 2 Wastelands, but this usually prevented me from developing my board position just as much as my opponent, if not more. In short, I don't hate granting my opponent a free basic land (except in those rare cases where he is color-screwed and PtE would help him fix his mana).
In response to Tanarin's statement whereby the sorcery speed of Oust doesn't matter too much because we're usually hitting their dudes on our own turn anyways - this I can't side with. Almost always, I hit my opponent's dudes during his turn, before attackers are declared: keep him guessing until the last second! The only exception I can see to this rule is when my opponent could get extra mileage from his creature during his pre-attack turn, either by getting an extra activation (eg. Grim Lavamancer or Knight of the Reliquary) or by benefitting from an awesome state-based ability (eg. Goblin Warchief).
I guess I can bring my opinion on path over here as well Finn ;-)
I have to ask you though since you run additional removal (oust) maindeck, and I do not. I'm definitely not on board for path being a maindeck card, it is definitely sb material likely as a 2-of for me. The big thing is, I run 7 cards in my deck that cut off mana (4 port, 3 waste) am I going to mull away a hand that doesnt have any of these cards? Likely not if I have other ways to win in my hand. Having temporary removal doesn't appeal to me, but to each their own.
OK, well this is standard, but there was a good game during the semis last night that involved a Caw-blade player ousting a Valakut player's lotus cobra twice. I think considering how he used oust to basically make lotus cobra useless (As it is usually not desired after the first few turns,) demonstrates the theory about ousting a key early game card.
Now I don't really know the meta in my area since I don't play it every week, but my friends have let me know that Show and Tell variants are going to be pretty popular that day.
Currently I really have no main deck way to beat Progenitus. SB offers Runed Halo but that's about it.
I realize I need ways to beat Progenitus. The best options, as we have discussed many times in this thread, seem to be:
I think the only really flexible slots in my SB list are the 3x Cataclysm (they were in there for Enchantress but I think the deck has enough Enchantress hate atm). What three cards would you guys recommend for this matchup? I think one Ensnaring Bridge is obvious, since it is tutorable, but would you just run 2x Tariff? Or 1x Tariff, 1x Retribution?
My buddy is absolutely convinced that 3x Fleshbag Marauder is the right call, but I just laugh at him. He says you can still cast it off vial.
Marauder at least comes in off Show and Tell or Vial and can't be countered by their Force of Wills, like Bridge, Tariff, and Retribution can. Is there anything we can play to come off Show and Tell to deal with it that is on color or artifact?
There has to be some other ways to deal with this.
Hi everyone. Long time reader of this forum but first time poster here.
I only play on MTGO and recently purchased the Exiler precon and just started playing legacy (I only drafted and played sealed before). I have been adjusting the precon deck based on what I have read in this thread but am not committed enough (yet) to spend the 100+ on wastelands.
I have substituted Ghost Quarter for the wastelands, I have all 3 swords and the 4 mothers. I'm sure the online Meta is quite different than the paper one but I played probably 20 matches in the tourney practice room over the weekend and ran into Storm almost half the time, affinity a few times, elves once, goblins a few times and a shroud enchantment deck. Oh and I also ran into the turbo-drazi.
Of all my matches I think I only won about 3 or 4 total. I realize I need to learn to pilot the deck but I also got land screwed alot! I had so many games where cataclysm would have saved me but I was stuck on 3 lands.
I'm playing 22 lands:
4 ghost quarter
2 karakas
3 legendary land-can't remember the name now-gets you a basic land when put in GY
13 plains
After so much land screw I decided to add 3 Marsh flats in place of 3 plains. Though I notice none of the D&T builds seem to run fetch's but I just wanted to see if it would help my land screw. I'm wondering though if I should even be running the ghost quarters since I really don't have the mana-denial engine.
Since storm seems to be so prevalant online I'm thinking I should be running my 2 Leylines of Sanc main and not be running STP in main at all. So many times I had so many dead cards in my hand game 1 with the 4 STP and 2 Oust or even the Mothers on the battlefield didn't seem to do much against storm.
How in the heck do you get rid of emrakul? I am using 1 sideboard card, ensnaring bridge, but what other ways are there?
Just looking for some advice here and how best to learn to pilot this deck and tweak it optimally for the online meta.
Now I don't really know the meta in my area since I don't play it every week, but my friends have let me know that Show and Tell variants are going to be pretty popular that day.
Currently I really have no main deck way to beat Progenitus. SB offers Runed Halo but that's about it.
I realize I need ways to beat Progenitus. The best options, as we have discussed many times in this thread, seem to be:
I think the only really flexible slots in my SB list are the 3x Cataclysm (they were in there for Enchantress but I think the deck has enough Enchantress hate atm). What three cards would you guys recommend for this matchup? I think one Ensnaring Bridge is obvious, since it is tutorable, but would you just run 2x Tariff? Or 1x Tariff, 1x Retribution?
My buddy is absolutely convinced that 3x Fleshbag Marauder is the right call, but I just laugh at him. He says you can still cast it off vial.
Marauder at least comes in off Show and Tell or Vial and can't be countered by their Force of Wills, like Bridge, Tariff, and Retribution can. Is there anything we can play to come off Show and Tell to deal with it that is on color or artifact?
There has to be some other ways to deal with this.
Thanks.
Show and tell will allow you to put your Runed Halo and/or Ensnaring Bridge into play right from your hand. A good plan game 2 is to tutor for either one of those on the first turn and pray they can't Show immediately.
OK, well this is standard, but there was a good game during the semis last night that involved a Caw-blade player ousting a Valakut player's lotus cobra twice. I think considering how he used oust to basically make lotus cobra useless (As it is usually not desired after the first few turns,) demonstrates the theory about ousting a key early game card.
This is a great example, but I wonder how much it transfers over to Legacy. The good majority of creatures I want to PtE aren't the ones that are only useful in the early game but easy to ignore later on. Rather - like Grim Lavamancer, KotR, Goblin Warchief, Goyf - they are dudes I want my opponent to lose access to permanently. I'm not sure how many Legacy targets would correspond with your Lotus Cobra example. Noble Hierarch or Birds of Paradise, maybe? Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe in Ichorid? Really, not sure.
Quote from SolonJhee »
Currently I really have no main deck way to beat Progenitus. SB offers Runed Halo but that's about it.
I realize I need ways to beat Progenitus. The best options, as we have discussed many times in this thread, seem to be:
Beating Progenitus is a tall order indeed. So tall, in fact, that unless the meta as a whole really justifies the use of Tariff or Retribution, I wouldn't bother trying to find ways to beat Prog, outside of Runed Halo. What I'd focus on is better ways to race him.
In this respect, Burrenton Forge-Tender is gold as an SB card. Even if you don't have the SoLaS online, getting just one use from BFT means you're benefitting from one whole extra turn to swing for lethal damage. BFT may be somewhat narrow in its possible uses, but so are our other SB options.
Including an Ensnaring Bridge sounds awesome indeed. Also, I used to run a second Runed Halo in SB, seems it could be an option for you to consider.
Quote from SolonJhee »
My buddy is absolutely convinced that 3x Fleshbag Marauder is the right call, but I just laugh at him. He says you can still cast it off vial.
Marauder at least comes in off Show and Tell or Vial and can't be countered by their Force of Wills, like Bridge, Tariff, and Retribution can. Is there anything we can play to come off Show and Tell to deal with it that is on color or artifact?
Fleshbag Marauder does sound like a fun, techy answer, but my gut tells me you're right to laugh at your friend. Fatties will also come down via Sneak Attack, not just Show and Tell, in which case your Marauder is stuck in your hand unless you're rocking the vial @3, which is too circumstantial to depend on. I'm wondering if I wouldn't consider splashing black for your particular meta, gaining black Edict effects like Marauder, on top of giving you access to Thoughtseize.
I would also love to hear about a white or artifact (or green) creature with similarities to Fleshbag Marauder or maybe Man-o'-War... don't think it's in the cards though.
This is random and silly, but has anyone considered Honorable Passage for an attacking Progenitus? Randomly burninating seems a tad ridiculous. It also has applications against a retarded-huge-mclarge Piledriver.
Fleshbag Marauder does sound like a fun, techy answer, but my gut tells me you're right to laugh at your friend. Fatties will also come down via Sneak Attack, not just Show and Tell, in which case your Marauder is stuck in your hand unless you're rocking the vial @3, which is too circumstantial to depend on. I'm wondering if I wouldn't consider splashing black for your particular meta, gaining black Edict effects like Marauder, on top of giving you access to Thoughtseize.
I would also love to hear about a white or artifact (or green) creature with similarities to Fleshbag Marauder or maybe Man-o'-War... don't think it's in the cards though.
I don't think we have to worry too much about Sneak Attack, because it can be Needled, Revoked, and O-ringed. And all of those are searchable with E. Tutor. Also unless they Sneak Attack Emrakul (and we have Karakas), they will need to Sneak Attack Progenitus twice to kill us, maybe three times if we have a STP on our own creature.
I'm more scared of Show and Tell/Progenitus. Maybe it's better to not use Tariff or Retribution because they cannot be searched, and stick to enchantments and artifacts.
Darn, Honorable Passage is a cool idea. I had not thought of that one for Progenitus. Wookie, that was anti-Piledriver tech from way back. Of course there are the drawbacks. It is not good against Emrakul which means that it is competing for space with stuff like Wing Shards ([EDIT] and Tariff and Retribution [/EDIT]) for dedicated anti-Progenitus hate that can not be searched up with a tutor. As much as Shards drives me nuts with its difficult casting cost (in a deck that wants to spend its mana on its own turn), it *can* kill Emrakul even if he is hardcast, and almost certainly is more broadly useful than Honorable Passage.
Even still, you now have me thinking in a whole new direction.
@Solonghee, the question becomes "How effective are the solutions we can tutor for?" Ensnaring Bridge is a duct tape solution if I ever saw one. The problem we have is that there are so many different ways to get these creatures onto the battlefield that we can not go after the engines with a catch-all method, we can not kill the creature since it sometimes has to be an instant, and the two have different nasty defenses and effects. And even permanent solutions have to be proactive, so Planar Collapse and False Prophet are too clunky. So we are down to treating the symptom rather than the disease with this weaksauce card. Wookie says that Bridge is so bad against Elf Emrakul that it is not worth bothering with. That's big stuff right there. And we are very soft to Progenitus in general, but we have one thing going for us. The decks that have it are mostly soft to us. You can get a lot of mileage out of keeping them off of two green mana. In the case of CounterTop, it makes it terribly hard for them because they have to either get a Tarmo out and keep it long enough to get two green plus two more mana or they have to have two green plus a fetchland to get a Dryad. Stuff like this is why I keep saying that mana denial and extra removal (Oust) is everything.
Finn, thanks for your response, but I'm not worried about the Elf matchup (mainly because no one plays it in my meta). I was talking about the Show and Tell/Sneak Attack matchup that wins with Progenitus and Emrakul. It's heavily represented here.
I think Ensnaring Bridge just beats them. They have no outs to that card maindeck I think. I am assuming elves has ways to kill artifacts and enchantments?
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Quote from Matt McCullough »
I'm bad at magic, you're bad at magic, and Level 4 Pro Ari Lax is terrible at magic.
Hey guys I've been following this thread for quite some time now. In fact, I've been reading about legacy for years now and I'm proud to say I've finally settled with a deck. I ran a version of this deck at my local gaming store last Saturday and managed top 4. Here's the list:
I'm aware there are better choices for the deck. I'm still missing a few cards, and those should be filled in very soon.
Here's a summary of the tournament.
Round 1: ANT 2-0!
During some playtesting, I knew this matchup was going to be terrible. However, walking into the round, I had no idea what to expect.
Game 1: I kept a hand with lands, Mom, Stoneforge Mystic, and a Revoker. He wins the dice roll and I see a City of Brass. Casts an Ponder and peed a little, knowing it wasn't Dredge. He plays Infernal Tutor for LED turn 2 and I follow up with Revoker naming LED. He pauses a bit. I drop Stoneforge, searching for SoLS. He combos off into 12 goblins, but lifegain + blockers outrace him.
Sideboard: -4 STP, -4 Serra Avengers(?) +2 Tutors, + 1 Runed Halo, + 1 Chalice of the Void, +3 Ethersworn Canonists, +1 Aura of Silence
Game 2: I think I take a mulligan to 6, seeing Chalice and keeping. ANT goes first again, dropping land and a draw spell. I play land and drop Chalice for 0 and he grunts a bit. He combos off 4 or 5 turns later, putting out 14 goblins. However, I had established enough board and beat him down with a crew of dudes.
Round 2: Dredge 0-2
My friend here is a very experienced dredge player. I cannot win against him.
Game 1: I do not have my log for this game on me, and I do not remember anything more than the zombie tokens that ate my face.
Game 2: Same story as game one, except Iona hits the board. I had no Karakas in hand so I scoop.
I felt very demoralized after this round.
Round 3: Merfolk 2-0
I heard this was a good matchup! I try to hide a smile while I sit down in front of my opponent.
Game 1: I start off with a resolved Vial. I drop a Mom and a Mangara while I see a turn 2 Jitte and a turn 3 Coralhelm Commander. I wasn't sure how to deal with the Jitte so I Mangara-ed the Lord away. I see Cursecatcher and two Reejereys (one of which was StPed). Kira hits the board and he taps out to equip Jitte to it. Next turn I target Kira with Mom, then Flickering it out. Two more Wisps and a Serra Avenger puts him in the negatives.
Sideboard: Nothing
Game 2: I draw Avengers and a Mystic. He starts off with turn 1 vial and I panic a bit. However my turn 2 Stoneforge resolves and I fetch SoFI. The sword comes down with the an Avenger. Facing down only two Cursecatchers, a Lord of Atlantis, and a lot of land, my victory followed shortly.
Round 3: Dredge 2-1
I cry in the inside, but later wipe my tears with his inexperience.
Game 1: He mulls to 5, but manages to breakthrough. He dredges a lot and gets a lot of zombie tokens. My Grunt and Revoker could not hold of the 29 damage that comes at me. Had I lived another turn, I could have Flickered his Sphinx out and decked him out...
Sideboard: -4 Serra Avenger, -2 Goldmeadow Harrier, +2 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Wheel of Sun and Moon, + 1 Chalice of the Void (Oops), +1 Jotun Grunt.
Game 2: I t1 Tutor into a t2 Wheel. He did not find any answers to it and dies a few turns later.
Game 3: I'm forced to Relic his whole yard t2, but I catch up with a Grunt. He had lost 6 life to his Citadel, and had already whiffed two Breakthroughs. He had numerous misplays (that covered some of mine), and I felt unrighteously better about the matchup.
Round 4: Counterbalance 2-1
This was the first non-fish U deck I've played thus far in Legacy.
Game 1: I kept a hand with two Vials, a Port, a Wasteland, and some creatures. I thought it' be enough. My first Vial was Forced, and the latter two were blown up by an EE. I did not see a single white source until maybe turn 6, but Ported the heck out of his three lands to prevent Counterbalance from coming down. However, he manages to cast a Sword of the Meek and tutors up a Thopter Foundry. He had WUU for sources so I Port the Plains, allowing him to cast Counterbalance. I catch up casting Grunt and a Stonecloaker but he manages to Needle my Ports. I bring him down to 7 life and scoop to the combo. I later found out that my second Stonecloaker could have stopped the Sword from coming back, allowing me victory.
Sideboard: -4 StP, -3 Serra Avenger, +2 E Tutor, +1 Chalice of the Void, +1 Aura of Silence, +3 Cataclysm. There might have been more changes. At this point I wasn't sure what I was doing.
Game 2: I see Aura in my opener and keep. It resolves turn three and he pauses a bit. I was about to Cataclysm turn four but I decide to hold off. This allowed him to pay two for his Seat of the Synod (come to think of it, was it necessary?) I Clysm a turn later. He later reestablishes with CB, Top, and Ensnaring Bridge on the board, while my Grunt smacks him for a few points. I bait him with Moms until I got my Vial out. I resolve a Stoneforge, fetching SoFI. He scrambles a bit to get it countered, so he tutors up an O-Ring, flipping it for CB (I felt like this was a misplay on his part: He had 1 card in hand an EBridge in play.) Vial then brings in Mangara, and the Karakas combo took out Bridge, Counterbalance, and I believe his Thopter combo. He decides to O-Ring my Vial, but I cast Serra Avenger and finish the game up.
Game 3: He had to go see his "babe" so he gives me game 3.
We decided to split top4. Had we played I would have seen Elves, Canadian Thresh, and the Dredge player I lost to.
Thank you all for contributing to this thread. Had it not been for finn, thewookie, joe c, amoebasinger, and some of you other guys I wouldn't be here. I hope to get better at playing this deck and I hope to help this thread out in any way I can. If you have any tips for my game play, card choices, or tournament summaries, I am gladly take up on any advice you have to offer. There's a Star City Open in my area this Saturday, wish me luck!
Sorry, not a fan of alterations on old cards that are in limited supply. They represent a part of the game's history, and in my opinion altering them shows scant regard for that.
Finn, thanks for your response, but I'm not worried about the Elf matchup (mainly because no one plays it in my meta). I was talking about the Show and Tell/Sneak Attack matchup that wins with Progenitus and Emrakul. It's heavily represented here.
I think Ensnaring Bridge just beats them. They have no outs to that card maindeck I think. I am assuming elves has ways to kill artifacts and enchantments?
@ Kingofethanol, Mother of Runes can't target your opponent's creatures, you're lucky your opponent didn't read your card...oh and you're opponent doesn't have to pay for Seat of the Synod...
Overall, goodjob on the finish... you had 4 bad matchups (I consider the U/W ThopterSwordCounterBalance deck a bad matchup based on my experience)
I've never really liked the Goldmeadow Harriers and I would replace them with a Grunt and a Revoker but that's just me...
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I think the only really flexible slots in my SB list are the 3x Cataclysm (they were in there for Enchantress but I think the deck has enough Enchantress hate atm). What three cards would you guys recommend for this matchup? I think one Ensnaring Bridge is obvious, since it is tutorable, but would you just run 2x Tariff? Or 1x Tariff, 1x Retribution?
In my experience, if they get a nut draw on you, you can't win it without specific hate like Runed Halo. In my experience, you can actually race them with either Umezawa's Jitte or Sword of Light and Shadow. UJ gives you 4 life per swing. SOLAS gives you unblockable and 3 life per swing, and lets you swing in with random Grunts or Mother of Runes. Making them take three turns to kill you is significant, especially if you are beating them down. Then they need to keep Progenitus back on blocking duty or they lose to some random Jotun Grunt.
After so much land screw I decided to add 3 Marsh flats in place of 3 plains. Though I notice none of the D&T builds seem to run fetch's but I just wanted to see if it would help my land screw...
Since storm seems to be so prevalant online I'm thinking I should be running my 2 Leylines of Sanc main and not be running STP in main at all.
In my opinion, fetch lands actually make mana screw worse. Mono blue Merfolk doesn't run them, and I don't think mono-red Goblins does either, though they have good reasons to thin their deck.
DnT: play fetch land; 22 Lands in deck.
DnT: pop fetch land; 21 Lands in deck. Hope to draw one.
DnT: play fetch land; 20 Lands in deck.
DnT: pop fetch land; 19 Lands in deck. Hope to draw one.
Fetch lands decrease your chance of drawing lands; that's why I especially don't like them in Cataclysm builds. I like Chalice of the Void for Storm, and maybe Phyrexian Revoker, and of course, Canonist, but they can "go off" through her. In my opinion, Cataclysm is great against Natural Order builds, especially on the play. Edit: I leave in Swords to Plowshares against Storm bc if you STP your grunt or flyer in response to Tendrils, you can win.
I don't think we have to worry too much about Sneak Attack, because it can be Needled, Revoked, and O-ringed. And all of those are searchable with E. Tutor. Also unless they Sneak Attack Emrakul (and we have Karakas), they will need to Sneak Attack Progenitus twice to kill us, maybe three times if we have a STP on our own creature.
I'm more scared of Show and Tell/Progenitus. Maybe it's better to not use Tariff or Retribution because they cannot be searched, and stick to enchantments and artifacts.
I have found Sneak Attack to be really annoying. It is hard to beat if it gets on the table.
I currently run Ensnaring Bridge, and I look at it as a Panic Button, which isn't optimum. It sort of is the only Panic Button in the deck, and it doesn't help you win. It can be thwarted with land destruction, but it makes your opp's discard worse (such as with Reanimator or Rock). I almost never get Wing Shards off with Storm > 0 so it has gone from a 4-of SB to 0, and I have one blank space in my SB. I like Oblivion Ring for Show and Tell, and keeping a Karakas in hand.
Kingof ethanol: I see you kept in mangara against combo, but took out avenger, which is a clock against them. I would always take out mangara and leave stuff that can end the game fast in there. Also if you run into combo and dredge often , I recommend a ratchet bomb or a powder keg to handle empty the warrens tokens, or zombie tokens. I like tutoring for it the end of turn they dump out then play it and blow ip the world.
I have found Sneak Attack to be really annoying. It is hard to beat if it gets on the table.
I currently run Ensnaring Bridge, and I look at it as a Panic Button, which isn't optimum. It sort of is the only Panic Button in the deck, and it doesn't help you win. It can be thwarted with land destruction, but it makes your opp's discard worse (such as with Reanimator or Rock). I almost never get Wing Shards off with Storm > 0 so it has gone from a 4-of SB to 0, and I have one blank space in my SB. I like Oblivion Ring for Show and Tell, and keeping a Karakas in hand.
J
Am I missing how the core deck works? How is Sneak Attack a problem? You should be able to either Needle/Revoker/Oring it before they get in two swings, and that's provided they have two creatures to have it come down from their hand.
Isn't Ensnaring Bridge a hard lock against them? What do they have to beat it? They aren't getting ten cards in our hand. They aren't destroying artifacts or likely bouncing it (pre board obviously). Yes they can counter it but it can come down from Show and Tell. So can Runed Halo.
Maybe I am misunderstanding, but isn't the main problem Show and Tell having a Progenitus come down? Karakas and O-ring do not beat it. Like I said before, I don't think Emrakul is a problem. How are we supposed to race progenitus? If they get it down on T2 or T3 (with or without Counterspell backup), then I think it's impossible to race, even with SoLaS.
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I'm bad at magic, you're bad at magic, and Level 4 Pro Ari Lax is terrible at magic.
Well thing is Sneak attack can come down on average is earliest T3 (Via show and tell). That gives us at least 3 turns to set up for it. Not only that their only accel is lotus petal, which since we have revoker we can just name. In all reality S&T should not be a major problem for us post board. I would be more concerned with NoBant TBH. They have the counter backup with that deck that makes Progenitus way more dangerous.
Well thing is Sneak attack can come down on average is earliest T3 (Via show and tell). That gives us at least 3 turns to set up for it. Not only that their only accel is lotus petal, which since we have revoker we can just name. In all reality S&T should not be a major problem for us post board. I would be more concerned with NoBant TBH. They have the counter backup with that deck that makes Progenitus way more dangerous.
Mono W DT will have an easier MU against CB NoBant as compared to DT with splash as it could easily cripple noble or top and its mana base.
Well thing is Sneak attack can come down on average is earliest T3 (Via show and tell). That gives us at least 3 turns to set up for it. Not only that their only accel is lotus petal, which since we have revoker we can just name. In all reality S&T should not be a major problem for us post board. I would be more concerned with NoBant TBH. They have the counter backup with that deck that makes Progenitus way more dangerous.
Doesn't the deck run Lotus Petal, Ancient Tomb, and sometimes Seething Song? Seems they can get it out T2 if they wanted to, though likely can't activate it til T3 at earliest.
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In my mono W build what i need are solid creatures that could protect me not a clown that will die after 2-3 turns. Yes jotun is excellent against GY decks and could act as temporary clock but in my build i don't go for the quick win i really on locking my opponents or controlling the board before i go on the offensive.
For your reference my mono w build
Lands [22]
2 flagstones of trokair
4 wasteland
3 rishadan port
3 karakas
10 plains
Spells [13]
4 swords to plowshares
4 aether vial
2 cataclysm
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sword of light and shadow
Creatures [25]
4 mother of runes
3 wall of omens
3 stoneforge mystic
4 serra avenger
2 priest of norm
3 flickerwisp
3 managarra
3 mirran crusader
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U G W NO Bant U G W
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R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
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Momir Vig
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Were I a more experienced monowhite D+T pilot, I could surely contribute more meaningfully to the PtE debate. I can imagine how Porting an opponent's land then granting him a basic feels like you're tripping on your own feet, but I can't bring forth any solid playing experience to back it up.
From the green splash perspective, Path to Exile remains the best 2nd option after StP, hands down. I may run a set of Wastelands, but I'm seldom in the business of mana denial. I've had some attempts at playing a mana denial strategy when my opener was a keepable hand with 2 Wastelands, but this usually prevented me from developing my board position just as much as my opponent, if not more. In short, I don't hate granting my opponent a free basic land (except in those rare cases where he is color-screwed and PtE would help him fix his mana).
In response to Tanarin's statement whereby the sorcery speed of Oust doesn't matter too much because we're usually hitting their dudes on our own turn anyways - this I can't side with. Almost always, I hit my opponent's dudes during his turn, before attackers are declared: keep him guessing until the last second! The only exception I can see to this rule is when my opponent could get extra mileage from his creature during his pre-attack turn, either by getting an extra activation (eg. Grim Lavamancer or Knight of the Reliquary) or by benefitting from an awesome state-based ability (eg. Goblin Warchief).
I have to ask you though since you run additional removal (oust) maindeck, and I do not. I'm definitely not on board for path being a maindeck card, it is definitely sb material likely as a 2-of for me. The big thing is, I run 7 cards in my deck that cut off mana (4 port, 3 waste) am I going to mull away a hand that doesnt have any of these cards? Likely not if I have other ways to win in my hand. Having temporary removal doesn't appeal to me, but to each their own.
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I am running Finn's basic list, more or less, but my sideboard is currently:
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Runed Halo
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Pithing Needle
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Cataclysm
Now I don't really know the meta in my area since I don't play it every week, but my friends have let me know that Show and Tell variants are going to be pretty popular that day.
Currently I really have no main deck way to beat Progenitus. SB offers Runed Halo but that's about it.
I realize I need ways to beat Progenitus. The best options, as we have discussed many times in this thread, seem to be:
Tariff
Ensnaring Bridge
Retribution of the Meek
I think the only really flexible slots in my SB list are the 3x Cataclysm (they were in there for Enchantress but I think the deck has enough Enchantress hate atm). What three cards would you guys recommend for this matchup? I think one Ensnaring Bridge is obvious, since it is tutorable, but would you just run 2x Tariff? Or 1x Tariff, 1x Retribution?
I know you can get cute with Burrenton Forge-Tender and Sword of Light and Shadow but that is a two card dependant strategy.
My buddy is absolutely convinced that 3x Fleshbag Marauder is the right call, but I just laugh at him. He says you can still cast it off vial.
Marauder at least comes in off Show and Tell or Vial and can't be countered by their Force of Wills, like Bridge, Tariff, and Retribution can. Is there anything we can play to come off Show and Tell to deal with it that is on color or artifact?
There has to be some other ways to deal with this.
Thanks.
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I only play on MTGO and recently purchased the Exiler precon and just started playing legacy (I only drafted and played sealed before). I have been adjusting the precon deck based on what I have read in this thread but am not committed enough (yet) to spend the 100+ on wastelands.
I have substituted Ghost Quarter for the wastelands, I have all 3 swords and the 4 mothers. I'm sure the online Meta is quite different than the paper one but I played probably 20 matches in the tourney practice room over the weekend and ran into Storm almost half the time, affinity a few times, elves once, goblins a few times and a shroud enchantment deck. Oh and I also ran into the turbo-drazi.
Of all my matches I think I only won about 3 or 4 total. I realize I need to learn to pilot the deck but I also got land screwed alot! I had so many games where cataclysm would have saved me but I was stuck on 3 lands.
I'm playing 22 lands:
4 ghost quarter
2 karakas
3 legendary land-can't remember the name now-gets you a basic land when put in GY
13 plains
After so much land screw I decided to add 3 Marsh flats in place of 3 plains. Though I notice none of the D&T builds seem to run fetch's but I just wanted to see if it would help my land screw. I'm wondering though if I should even be running the ghost quarters since I really don't have the mana-denial engine.
Since storm seems to be so prevalant online I'm thinking I should be running my 2 Leylines of Sanc main and not be running STP in main at all. So many times I had so many dead cards in my hand game 1 with the 4 STP and 2 Oust or even the Mothers on the battlefield didn't seem to do much against storm.
How in the heck do you get rid of emrakul? I am using 1 sideboard card, ensnaring bridge, but what other ways are there?
Just looking for some advice here and how best to learn to pilot this deck and tweak it optimally for the online meta.
Thanks in advance,
Sard
Show and tell will allow you to put your Runed Halo and/or Ensnaring Bridge into play right from your hand. A good plan game 2 is to tutor for either one of those on the first turn and pray they can't Show immediately.
Good luck man.
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This is a great example, but I wonder how much it transfers over to Legacy. The good majority of creatures I want to PtE aren't the ones that are only useful in the early game but easy to ignore later on. Rather - like Grim Lavamancer, KotR, Goblin Warchief, Goyf - they are dudes I want my opponent to lose access to permanently. I'm not sure how many Legacy targets would correspond with your Lotus Cobra example. Noble Hierarch or Birds of Paradise, maybe? Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe in Ichorid? Really, not sure.
Beating Progenitus is a tall order indeed. So tall, in fact, that unless the meta as a whole really justifies the use of Tariff or Retribution, I wouldn't bother trying to find ways to beat Prog, outside of Runed Halo. What I'd focus on is better ways to race him.
In this respect, Burrenton Forge-Tender is gold as an SB card. Even if you don't have the SoLaS online, getting just one use from BFT means you're benefitting from one whole extra turn to swing for lethal damage. BFT may be somewhat narrow in its possible uses, but so are our other SB options.
Including an Ensnaring Bridge sounds awesome indeed. Also, I used to run a second Runed Halo in SB, seems it could be an option for you to consider.
Fleshbag Marauder does sound like a fun, techy answer, but my gut tells me you're right to laugh at your friend. Fatties will also come down via Sneak Attack, not just Show and Tell, in which case your Marauder is stuck in your hand unless you're rocking the vial @3, which is too circumstantial to depend on. I'm wondering if I wouldn't consider splashing black for your particular meta, gaining black Edict effects like Marauder, on top of giving you access to Thoughtseize.
I would also love to hear about a white or artifact (or green) creature with similarities to Fleshbag Marauder or maybe Man-o'-War... don't think it's in the cards though.
WW Death & Taxes
GG Control
RR Skred Red
I don't think we have to worry too much about Sneak Attack, because it can be Needled, Revoked, and O-ringed. And all of those are searchable with E. Tutor. Also unless they Sneak Attack Emrakul (and we have Karakas), they will need to Sneak Attack Progenitus twice to kill us, maybe three times if we have a STP on our own creature.
I'm more scared of Show and Tell/Progenitus. Maybe it's better to not use Tariff or Retribution because they cannot be searched, and stick to enchantments and artifacts.
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Even still, you now have me thinking in a whole new direction.
@Solonghee, the question becomes "How effective are the solutions we can tutor for?" Ensnaring Bridge is a duct tape solution if I ever saw one. The problem we have is that there are so many different ways to get these creatures onto the battlefield that we can not go after the engines with a catch-all method, we can not kill the creature since it sometimes has to be an instant, and the two have different nasty defenses and effects. And even permanent solutions have to be proactive, so Planar Collapse and False Prophet are too clunky. So we are down to treating the symptom rather than the disease with this weaksauce card. Wookie says that Bridge is so bad against Elf Emrakul that it is not worth bothering with. That's big stuff right there. And we are very soft to Progenitus in general, but we have one thing going for us. The decks that have it are mostly soft to us. You can get a lot of mileage out of keeping them off of two green mana. In the case of CounterTop, it makes it terribly hard for them because they have to either get a Tarmo out and keep it long enough to get two green plus two more mana or they have to have two green plus a fetchland to get a Dryad. Stuff like this is why I keep saying that mana denial and extra removal (Oust) is everything.
I think Ensnaring Bridge just beats them. They have no outs to that card maindeck I think. I am assuming elves has ways to kill artifacts and enchantments?
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4 Rishadan Port
2 Karakas
3 Wasteland
2 Flagstones of Trokair
12 Plains
Creatures [26]
2 Goldmeadow Harrier
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
2 Stonecloaker
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Swords to Plowshares
Artifacts [7]
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Cataclysm
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Serenity
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Runed Halo
1 Aura of Silence
I'm aware there are better choices for the deck. I'm still missing a few cards, and those should be filled in very soon.
Here's a summary of the tournament.
Round 1: ANT 2-0!
During some playtesting, I knew this matchup was going to be terrible. However, walking into the round, I had no idea what to expect.
Game 1: I kept a hand with lands, Mom, Stoneforge Mystic, and a Revoker. He wins the dice roll and I see a City of Brass. Casts an Ponder and peed a little, knowing it wasn't Dredge. He plays Infernal Tutor for LED turn 2 and I follow up with Revoker naming LED. He pauses a bit. I drop Stoneforge, searching for SoLS. He combos off into 12 goblins, but lifegain + blockers outrace him.
Sideboard: -4 STP, -4 Serra Avengers(?) +2 Tutors, + 1 Runed Halo, + 1 Chalice of the Void, +3 Ethersworn Canonists, +1 Aura of Silence
Game 2: I think I take a mulligan to 6, seeing Chalice and keeping. ANT goes first again, dropping land and a draw spell. I play land and drop Chalice for 0 and he grunts a bit. He combos off 4 or 5 turns later, putting out 14 goblins. However, I had established enough board and beat him down with a crew of dudes.
Round 2: Dredge 0-2
My friend here is a very experienced dredge player. I cannot win against him.
Game 1: I do not have my log for this game on me, and I do not remember anything more than the zombie tokens that ate my face.
Game 2: Same story as game one, except Iona hits the board. I had no Karakas in hand so I scoop.
I felt very demoralized after this round.
Round 3: Merfolk 2-0
I heard this was a good matchup! I try to hide a smile while I sit down in front of my opponent.
Game 1: I start off with a resolved Vial. I drop a Mom and a Mangara while I see a turn 2 Jitte and a turn 3 Coralhelm Commander. I wasn't sure how to deal with the Jitte so I Mangara-ed the Lord away. I see Cursecatcher and two Reejereys (one of which was StPed). Kira hits the board and he taps out to equip Jitte to it. Next turn I target Kira with Mom, then Flickering it out. Two more Wisps and a Serra Avenger puts him in the negatives.
Sideboard: Nothing
Game 2: I draw Avengers and a Mystic. He starts off with turn 1 vial and I panic a bit. However my turn 2 Stoneforge resolves and I fetch SoFI. The sword comes down with the an Avenger. Facing down only two Cursecatchers, a Lord of Atlantis, and a lot of land, my victory followed shortly.
Round 3: Dredge 2-1
I cry in the inside, but later wipe my tears with his inexperience.
Game 1: He mulls to 5, but manages to breakthrough. He dredges a lot and gets a lot of zombie tokens. My Grunt and Revoker could not hold of the 29 damage that comes at me. Had I lived another turn, I could have Flickered his Sphinx out and decked him out...
Sideboard: -4 Serra Avenger, -2 Goldmeadow Harrier, +2 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Wheel of Sun and Moon, + 1 Chalice of the Void (Oops), +1 Jotun Grunt.
Game 2: I t1 Tutor into a t2 Wheel. He did not find any answers to it and dies a few turns later.
Game 3: I'm forced to Relic his whole yard t2, but I catch up with a Grunt. He had lost 6 life to his Citadel, and had already whiffed two Breakthroughs. He had numerous misplays (that covered some of mine), and I felt unrighteously better about the matchup.
Round 4: Counterbalance 2-1
This was the first non-fish U deck I've played thus far in Legacy.
Game 1: I kept a hand with two Vials, a Port, a Wasteland, and some creatures. I thought it' be enough. My first Vial was Forced, and the latter two were blown up by an EE. I did not see a single white source until maybe turn 6, but Ported the heck out of his three lands to prevent Counterbalance from coming down. However, he manages to cast a Sword of the Meek and tutors up a Thopter Foundry. He had WUU for sources so I Port the Plains, allowing him to cast Counterbalance. I catch up casting Grunt and a Stonecloaker but he manages to Needle my Ports. I bring him down to 7 life and scoop to the combo. I later found out that my second Stonecloaker could have stopped the Sword from coming back, allowing me victory.
Sideboard: -4 StP, -3 Serra Avenger, +2 E Tutor, +1 Chalice of the Void, +1 Aura of Silence, +3 Cataclysm. There might have been more changes. At this point I wasn't sure what I was doing.
Game 2: I see Aura in my opener and keep. It resolves turn three and he pauses a bit. I was about to Cataclysm turn four but I decide to hold off. This allowed him to pay two for his Seat of the Synod (come to think of it, was it necessary?) I Clysm a turn later. He later reestablishes with CB, Top, and Ensnaring Bridge on the board, while my Grunt smacks him for a few points. I bait him with Moms until I got my Vial out. I resolve a Stoneforge, fetching SoFI. He scrambles a bit to get it countered, so he tutors up an O-Ring, flipping it for CB (I felt like this was a misplay on his part: He had 1 card in hand an EBridge in play.) Vial then brings in Mangara, and the Karakas combo took out Bridge, Counterbalance, and I believe his Thopter combo. He decides to O-Ring my Vial, but I cast Serra Avenger and finish the game up.
Game 3: He had to go see his "babe" so he gives me game 3.
We decided to split top4. Had we played I would have seen Elves, Canadian Thresh, and the Dredge player I lost to.
Thank you all for contributing to this thread. Had it not been for finn, thewookie, joe c, amoebasinger, and some of you other guys I wouldn't be here. I hope to get better at playing this deck and I hope to help this thread out in any way I can. If you have any tips for my game play, card choices, or tournament summaries, I am gladly take up on any advice you have to offer. There's a Star City Open in my area this Saturday, wish me luck!
Viridian Shaman or Viridian Zealot
Overall, goodjob on the finish... you had 4 bad matchups (I consider the U/W ThopterSwordCounterBalance deck a bad matchup based on my experience)
I've never really liked the Goldmeadow Harriers and I would replace them with a Grunt and a Revoker but that's just me...
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In my experience, if they get a nut draw on you, you can't win it without specific hate like Runed Halo. In my experience, you can actually race them with either Umezawa's Jitte or Sword of Light and Shadow. UJ gives you 4 life per swing. SOLAS gives you unblockable and 3 life per swing, and lets you swing in with random Grunts or Mother of Runes. Making them take three turns to kill you is significant, especially if you are beating them down. Then they need to keep Progenitus back on blocking duty or they lose to some random Jotun Grunt.
In my opinion, fetch lands actually make mana screw worse. Mono blue Merfolk doesn't run them, and I don't think mono-red Goblins does either, though they have good reasons to thin their deck.
DnT: play fetch land; 22 Lands in deck.
DnT: pop fetch land; 21 Lands in deck. Hope to draw one.
DnT: play fetch land; 20 Lands in deck.
DnT: pop fetch land; 19 Lands in deck. Hope to draw one.
Fetch lands decrease your chance of drawing lands; that's why I especially don't like them in Cataclysm builds. I like Chalice of the Void for Storm, and maybe Phyrexian Revoker, and of course, Canonist, but they can "go off" through her. In my opinion, Cataclysm is great against Natural Order builds, especially on the play. Edit: I leave in Swords to Plowshares against Storm bc if you STP your grunt or flyer in response to Tendrils, you can win.
I have found Sneak Attack to be really annoying. It is hard to beat if it gets on the table.
I currently run Ensnaring Bridge, and I look at it as a Panic Button, which isn't optimum. It sort of is the only Panic Button in the deck, and it doesn't help you win. It can be thwarted with land destruction, but it makes your opp's discard worse (such as with Reanimator or Rock). I almost never get Wing Shards off with Storm > 0 so it has gone from a 4-of SB to 0, and I have one blank space in my SB. I like Oblivion Ring for Show and Tell, and keeping a Karakas in hand.
J
Am I missing how the core deck works? How is Sneak Attack a problem? You should be able to either Needle/Revoker/Oring it before they get in two swings, and that's provided they have two creatures to have it come down from their hand.
Isn't Ensnaring Bridge a hard lock against them? What do they have to beat it? They aren't getting ten cards in our hand. They aren't destroying artifacts or likely bouncing it (pre board obviously). Yes they can counter it but it can come down from Show and Tell. So can Runed Halo.
Maybe I am misunderstanding, but isn't the main problem Show and Tell having a Progenitus come down? Karakas and O-ring do not beat it. Like I said before, I don't think Emrakul is a problem. How are we supposed to race progenitus? If they get it down on T2 or T3 (with or without Counterspell backup), then I think it's impossible to race, even with SoLaS.
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Mono W DT will have an easier MU against CB NoBant as compared to DT with splash as it could easily cripple noble or top and its mana base.
Doesn't the deck run Lotus Petal, Ancient Tomb, and sometimes Seething Song? Seems they can get it out T2 if they wanted to, though likely can't activate it til T3 at earliest.
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