It's so annoying that Elves' only extremely good matchup happens to be DnT, they basically feed off us and them promptly get wrecked by blue decks and get kicked out from the playoffs anyways.
It's kinda like bringing a Stax deck to a tournament just for the Dredge matchup.
Okay, okay, so not great for Elves, but I mostly have Cataclysm in for Lands, Merfolk, Maverick, and Miracles and it seemed like if you could hold them down until turn 4, it gave you a way to restart. Actually, my best response to Elves was Chalice of the Void for 1 into Canonist.
The point was that I feel like running Cataclysm and Wilt-Leaf Liege right now is pretty good, but that is a lot of sideboard space in a deck that already has some heavy dedication (2 RiP, 2 Canonist, 2 Flare, 1 Grafdigger's.)
I'm torn in the 15th slot between Batterskull and Pithing Needle, though I could see other things as well. I suppose it depends on what match I need to shore up against.
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Standard
Tempo Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I wouldn't be torn between having a Needle in the S.B., but as for the comments of not including the Batterskull in the Main...well a few folks need to understand that's a huge mistake, and to further note there's not a template that has truly shown consistent results without this MVP slice of EQ in the build (main), Finn I think you need to take some medicine to get over that commander flu (this is Legacy good member)...you might pass that cold to others with some misleading information,competitive results require those competitive/proven cards in the templates (I can provide countless report links if needed by anyone who inquires).
Okay, okay, so not great for Elves, but I mostly have Cataclysm in for Lands, Merfolk, Maverick, and Miracles and it seemed like if you could hold them down until turn 4, it gave you a way to restart. Actually, my best response to Elves was Chalice of the Void for 1 into Canonist.
The point was that I feel like running Cataclysm and Wilt-Leaf Liege right now is pretty good, but that is a lot of sideboard space in a deck that already has some heavy dedication (2 RiP, 2 Canonist, 2 Flare, 1 Grafdigger's.)
I'm torn in the 15th slot between Batterskull and Pithing Needle, though I could see other things as well. I suppose it depends on what match I need to shore up against.
I'm going back and forth between singleton Brimaz and Batterskull in that one main slot and I went with Needle in the sideboard slot. I actually think Batterskull is better in most situations.
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Standard
Tempo Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I would not leave home without Batterskull at this point in time. A few pages back I did an analysis as to which equips I usually grab vs. the field, and Batterskull edged out Jitte and SoFaI as the most common fetch. Some decks just fold to it in game 1, very simply put.
Furthermore, the most common equipment removal spell is Abrupt Decay. Can't touch Batterskull. Ditto a similar dynamic for opponents who might run Inquisition of Kozilek.
Finally, grabbing Batterskull is one of those moves that FORCES your opponent to immediately respond. Think of it: if you resolve Mystic and grab SoFaI, your opponent only needs to worry about it when you attempt to equip. With Batterskull they are all but mandated to kill your Mystic immediately, on a turn they may otherwise spend developing their own board instead with a Dark Confidant or a Mystic of their own. Make your opponents' decisions for them and you'll be in a good position.
You're not making decisions for them; you're assuming they have to answer you. If they drop DC they'll be fine with killing the Germ after you spend a turn getting it into play. They just decided your next 3 moves if you want that skull (You drop it, you pop it when they swords it, you drop it again.) Similarly; if they Mystic into skull; you're still tied for board position next turn.
If they're a DRS deck; they may just Swords Mystic into Confidant anyway; since they'll be gathering cards (and thus can afford to waste one)
I read that analysis. I do not make those same decisions as you. I go for Umezawa's Jitte most of the time as my first choice. It is less of a gamble for the times in which they plow your Mystic. Also, they can Decay the germ token of course. It is eight mana to get a new one, or five to put the skull on something else. That is no small deal in either case.
In fact, I largely ignore the presence of Abrupt Decay and the argument that something's susceptibility to it is a significant point. It is a factor that we can not do anything about. It hits everything. It is not as if we have unimportant cards that we can laugh about them taking instead.
I do like the "force their hand" part though. I will have to think about that.
S.M. I hear your comments. You have a roundabout way of expressing yourself that I assume stems from being a non-native English speaker. If I understand you, I actually agree that I am not the best source at the moment. I have only a dozen or so games without Batterskull in fact. I will be back in shape soon though. No worries.
As for Legacy, with the dearth of usable cards in the last two sets - and this deck looking surprisingly similar to the way it did 18 months ago, I am looking at Eidolon of the Great Revel for some new blood in a roundabout aggro red deck including Zo-Zu the Punisher and Thalia too. Damn Imperial recruiter foils went from $86 to $180 in about four months though.
Does anyone else struggle with Wilt-leaf liege I am really having a hard time supporting the card. I know many of our creatures are x/1 and the liege while being a big body goes a long way helping against -1/-1 effects but I find vial too slow to tick this high and I am frequently wanting to use my mana for other things. It's been my experience that when they do opt to "golgari charm me" it's early enough in the game where I don't have 4 mana, the liege, or I have used my mana to tap down their lands and I can't always tap down everything
I am not sure what I would replace the card(s) with though.
If you're looking for a cheaper effect to counter -1/-1 you could always give something like Honor of the Pure a try. I suppose it also has the bonus of being E-Tutorable.
Veteran Armorer is another card that I've tested a bit as a 1-2 of in the side to combat Dread of Night / Golgari Charm / Zealous Persecution / Marsh Casualties. It being a guy can be good against BUG and Storm if they're playing the aforementioned cards, as you can protect it from Abrupt Decay with Mother of Runes. The fact that it dies to Massacre (along with the rest of the team Armorer was included to protect) is unfortunate.
I'm of the opinion that Wilt-Leaf Liege is the best option. Most of the Bxx decks (BUG, Junk, Jund) are playing Liliana and/or Hymn and it's free against those cards. The fact that it's a stand alone threat if draws sequence in such a way that they -x/-x your board then you draw team pump is nice. It being immune to Abrupt Decay makes it even more enticing against the BGx decks. I think Honor of the Pure, Spear of Heliod, and Veteran Armorer are defensible options but overall WLL is better.
Veteran Armorer is another card that I've tested a bit as a 1-2 of in the side to combat Dread of Night / Golgari Charm / Zealous Persecution / Marsh Casualties. It being a guy can be good against BUG and Storm if they're playing the aforementioned cards, as you can protect it from Abrupt Decay with Mother of Runes. The fact that it dies to Massacre (along with the rest of the team Armorer was included to protect) is unfortunate.
I'm of the opinion that Wilt-Leaf Liege is the best option. Most of the Bxx decks (BUG, Junk, Jund) are playing Liliana and/or Hymn and it's free against those cards. The fact that it's a stand alone threat if draws sequence in such a way that they -x/-x your board then you draw team pump is nice. It being immune to Abrupt Decay makes it even more enticing against the BGx decks. I think Honor of the Pure, Spear of Heliod, and Veteran Armorer are defensible options but overall WLL is better.
I actually forgot a couple of those points. You are correct, it is the best option when looking at what is available. Thanks for the in depth answer.
As for Legacy, with the dearth of usable cards in the last two sets - and this deck looking surprisingly similar to the way it did 18 months ago, I am looking at Eidolon of the Great Revel for some new blood in a roundabout aggro red deck including Zo-Zu the Punisher and Thalia too. Damn Imperial recruiter foils went from $86 to $180 in about four months though.
Got mine at $86, what is the red deck you speak of? Can I be pointed to where it is being discussed?
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Legacy
Death and Taxes
UG Infect
Strawberry Shortcake Imperial Painter
Yeah. I wish I had too. I am usually better at acquiring staples, but I have gotten lazy. I actually picked up one from a vender for $1 many years ago. I still only have the one Recruiter. Anyway, I have been pondering that deck idea for awhile. I finally made a thread here if you want to check it out:
Honestly, the stock 26 guys, 13 spell, 23 land build is very well positioned against Merfolk. We don't have Islands so their team isn't evasive, just True-Name Nemesis. I usually look for hands with Vial, Mother of Runes, STP, Stoneforge Mystic and Flickerwisp since they interact with Merfolk strongest.
No Batterskull is definitely a mistake against Merfolk. It is one of the best tools to stabilize and take control of the game.
I don't think Orim's Chant is good enough to warrant SB space, but even if it were SB it would only be for Storm, Belcher, High Tide, Oops All Spells, etc; it is not a good card against Merfolk. 'Chant walking' them is poor value, they still get to draw their card, play a land and maybe activate Mutavault/Vial. The other mode of using the W mana and a card to make things uncounterable that turn where you could just leave up the W and play around Daze anyway seems like poor value. If they want to Force your play there is a good chance they are pitching a guy to do it. I like running 1 copy of Cavern of Souls to fill this sort of role while only occupying a land slot and not inhibiting the deck's tempo.
Sunlance is ok as a 1 of, but I think it's pretty conditional and wouldn't recommend multiples.
Merfolk is my other deck. It's an uphill fight for Merfolk to take down a stock DnT list, assuming you're running fliers not Crusader and king kitty. If I feel like a real jerk I'll side in Ensnaring Bridge to shut down the deck, but it's generally not needed (I pitch Revoker)
I very rarely grab Batterskull in this match, and would rather have SoFaI on anything, or Jitte on a flyer to win TNN races and knock out their lords or other creatures. Using SoFaI gives protection from their deck and lets you draw more cards to grind them down no matter how many of your spells they manage to counter. Jitte on a flyer lets you either race TNN, gain life, or kill all their creatures with -1/-1 effects.
I'd say Merfolk lose this match about 70% of the time, especially if it's the version of Merfolk that runs Cavern of Souls, which is pointless against us.
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Legacy: WRDeath and Taxes UWRMiracles UBTezzerator GTrinity GBWRLoam URLandstill
Modern: WUBValue Titan UMerfolk WGDeath and Taxes
Honestly, the stock 26 guys, 13 spell, 23 land build is very well positioned against Merfolk. We don't have Islands so their team isn't evasive, just True-Name Nemesis. I usually look for hands with Vial, Mother of Runes, STP, Stoneforge Mystic and Flickerwisp since they interact with Merfolk strongest.
No Batterskull is definitely a mistake against Merfolk. It is one of the best tools to stabilize and take control of the game.
I don't think Orim's Chant is good enough to warrant SB space, but even if it were SB it would only be for Storm, Belcher, High Tide, Oops All Spells, etc; it is not a good card against Merfolk. 'Chant walking' them is poor value, they still get to draw their card, play a land and maybe activate Mutavault/Vial. The other mode of using the W mana and a card to make things uncounterable that turn where you could just leave up the W and play around Daze anyway seems like poor value. If they want to Force your play there is a good chance they are pitching a guy to do it. I like running 1 copy of Cavern of Souls to fill this sort of role while only occupying a land slot and not inhibiting the deck's tempo.
Sunlance is ok as a 1 of, but I think it's pretty conditional and wouldn't recommend multiples.
Well that build...26 + 13 + 23 leaves you with 62 cards...?
So once they have TNN out what is the best course of action to use with DnT? and what do you think about Oblivion Ring?
So then I see the Spells section looking like this:
A trump in this matchup would be Ensnaring Bridge. If they cast too many lords they can no longer attack. Then just give your guys pro blue or have a flyer to take the game at your leisure.
Thalia + pray or cataclysm + pray they don't/can't play replenish after.
Otherwise mana denial plus aura of silence. Having also been the enchantress player against this deck you also need a clock though. The mana denial and Thalia only slow things down for a while until the deck makes so much mana that the denial plan is irrelevant. Game 2's tended to revolve around cataclysm since it deals with the board effectively. Resolving a replenish after cataclysm however tends to make death and taxes fold on the spot.
The one guy in my meta only plays 2 nonbasics and 2 fetches... And suppression field!!! Now that is annoying... I mean, no rishadan port, it's 3 mana to activate! And aether vial is stupid. Also wasteland.
so I have a few basic questions...still fairly new to it and have just been doing a lot of casual play to get comfortable with the deck...so far so good!
So if you cast Phyrexian Revoker and your opponent has an Æther Vial in play, and you name Æther Vial...yet you also have an Æther Vial in play...does that mean the abilities on both can't be activated?? And, I'm assuming if you had 2 counters already on Æther Vial, those can't be used...right?
Second question...you have Mangara of Corondor on the board...you tap it to use it's "Tap" ability and exile a target creature...You can save Mangara with Flickerwisp using it's exile trigger to bring it back at the beginning of your next end step, right?
Finally with Batterskull What is the necessity of the Germ token, if it's a 0/0?
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It's kinda like bringing a Stax deck to a tournament just for the Dredge matchup.
The point was that I feel like running Cataclysm and Wilt-Leaf Liege right now is pretty good, but that is a lot of sideboard space in a deck that already has some heavy dedication (2 RiP, 2 Canonist, 2 Flare, 1 Grafdigger's.)
I'm torn in the 15th slot between Batterskull and Pithing Needle, though I could see other things as well. I suppose it depends on what match I need to shore up against.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
S.M.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Furthermore, the most common equipment removal spell is Abrupt Decay. Can't touch Batterskull. Ditto a similar dynamic for opponents who might run Inquisition of Kozilek.
Finally, grabbing Batterskull is one of those moves that FORCES your opponent to immediately respond. Think of it: if you resolve Mystic and grab SoFaI, your opponent only needs to worry about it when you attempt to equip. With Batterskull they are all but mandated to kill your Mystic immediately, on a turn they may otherwise spend developing their own board instead with a Dark Confidant or a Mystic of their own. Make your opponents' decisions for them and you'll be in a good position.
If they're a DRS deck; they may just Swords Mystic into Confidant anyway; since they'll be gathering cards (and thus can afford to waste one)
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
In fact, I largely ignore the presence of Abrupt Decay and the argument that something's susceptibility to it is a significant point. It is a factor that we can not do anything about. It hits everything. It is not as if we have unimportant cards that we can laugh about them taking instead.
I do like the "force their hand" part though. I will have to think about that.
S.M. I hear your comments. You have a roundabout way of expressing yourself that I assume stems from being a non-native English speaker. If I understand you, I actually agree that I am not the best source at the moment. I have only a dozen or so games without Batterskull in fact. I will be back in shape soon though. No worries.
As for Legacy, with the dearth of usable cards in the last two sets - and this deck looking surprisingly similar to the way it did 18 months ago, I am looking at Eidolon of the Great Revel for some new blood in a roundabout aggro red deck including Zo-Zu the Punisher and Thalia too. Damn Imperial recruiter foils went from $86 to $180 in about four months though.
I am not sure what I would replace the card(s) with though.
I'm of the opinion that Wilt-Leaf Liege is the best option. Most of the Bxx decks (BUG, Junk, Jund) are playing Liliana and/or Hymn and it's free against those cards. The fact that it's a stand alone threat if draws sequence in such a way that they -x/-x your board then you draw team pump is nice. It being immune to Abrupt Decay makes it even more enticing against the BGx decks. I think Honor of the Pure, Spear of Heliod, and Veteran Armorer are defensible options but overall WLL is better.
I actually forgot a couple of those points. You are correct, it is the best option when looking at what is available. Thanks for the in depth answer.
Thanks to The Plum for his suggestions as well.
Got mine at $86, what is the red deck you speak of? Can I be pointed to where it is being discussed?
Death and Taxes
UG Infect
Strawberry Shortcake Imperial Painter
EDH
Angus Mackenzie - Enduring Enchantments
Adun Oakenshield - Jund F'ing Good Stuff, "Money Vault"
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails - Captain Crunch
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/developing-legacy/554582-deck-red-white-punisher
What do you guys think is a good set up (mainboard) against Merfolk???
I read the primer on the first page in this thread, just wanted to see if you guys had any thoughts or advice on how I should be set up.
I want to make sure I have a lot of removal against Merfolk, just want to have a good balance.
here's my maindeck list idea.
4 Thalia, Gaurdian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords To Plowshares
2 Orim's Chant
2 Sunlance
1 Celestial Flare
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
11 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
Remember...this is specifically against those pesky Merfolk dudes.
No Batterskull is definitely a mistake against Merfolk. It is one of the best tools to stabilize and take control of the game.
I don't think Orim's Chant is good enough to warrant SB space, but even if it were SB it would only be for Storm, Belcher, High Tide, Oops All Spells, etc; it is not a good card against Merfolk. 'Chant walking' them is poor value, they still get to draw their card, play a land and maybe activate Mutavault/Vial. The other mode of using the W mana and a card to make things uncounterable that turn where you could just leave up the W and play around Daze anyway seems like poor value. If they want to Force your play there is a good chance they are pitching a guy to do it. I like running 1 copy of Cavern of Souls to fill this sort of role while only occupying a land slot and not inhibiting the deck's tempo.
Sunlance is ok as a 1 of, but I think it's pretty conditional and wouldn't recommend multiples.
I very rarely grab Batterskull in this match, and would rather have SoFaI on anything, or Jitte on a flyer to win TNN races and knock out their lords or other creatures. Using SoFaI gives protection from their deck and lets you draw more cards to grind them down no matter how many of your spells they manage to counter. Jitte on a flyer lets you either race TNN, gain life, or kill all their creatures with -1/-1 effects.
I'd say Merfolk lose this match about 70% of the time, especially if it's the version of Merfolk that runs Cavern of Souls, which is pointless against us.
Modern: WUBValue Titan UMerfolk WGDeath and Taxes
Well that build...26 + 13 + 23 leaves you with 62 cards...?
So once they have TNN out what is the best course of action to use with DnT? and what do you think about Oblivion Ring?
So then I see the Spells section looking like this:
4 Æther Vial
4 Swords To Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sunlance
1 Oblivion Ring
I misspoke stock is the 11 Spells above.
Otherwise mana denial plus aura of silence. Having also been the enchantress player against this deck you also need a clock though. The mana denial and Thalia only slow things down for a while until the deck makes so much mana that the denial plan is irrelevant. Game 2's tended to revolve around cataclysm since it deals with the board effectively. Resolving a replenish after cataclysm however tends to make death and taxes fold on the spot.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Death and Taxes
UG Infect
Strawberry Shortcake Imperial Painter
EDH
Angus Mackenzie - Enduring Enchantments
Adun Oakenshield - Jund F'ing Good Stuff, "Money Vault"
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails - Captain Crunch
Thalia (+ Ports) and Flickerwisp (vs. the enchanted lands) are MVPs.
(Something along that basic rule...: disruption + pressure )
Also, sandbag your Wasteland vs. his Serra's Sanctum.
(They're running more of these nowadays, so the chance of they drawing it increases.)
Phyrexian Revoker targets here are:
Helm of Obedience
Sterling Grove
Words of War
Words of Wind (if you see a blue splash)
(About the SB, others should be more helpfull, since I'm not yet experienced with the deck.)
So if you cast Phyrexian Revoker and your opponent has an Æther Vial in play, and you name Æther Vial...yet you also have an Æther Vial in play...does that mean the abilities on both can't be activated?? And, I'm assuming if you had 2 counters already on Æther Vial, those can't be used...right?
Second question...you have Mangara of Corondor on the board...you tap it to use it's "Tap" ability and exile a target creature...You can save Mangara with Flickerwisp using it's exile trigger to bring it back at the beginning of your next end step, right?
Finally with Batterskull What is the necessity of the Germ token, if it's a 0/0?