Here's what I wrote when I moved to the 4x Crusader build originally:
"I decided that I wanted to win the Czech Pile matchup via virtual card advantage (i.e. not by out-grinding, but by invalidating opposing resources, effectively putting myself ahead). 4 copies of Crusader and 2 Recruiters to find them meant that I would very consistently be able to stick a very difficult to remove threat that didn’t get bogged down by Baleful Strix and other small chump blockers. While my opponent would likely have a couple of answers in the 75, I had a long-term gameplan. Previously, I had used SoLaS to push through Strix as well as recoup card advantage, but that was no longer needed."
Palace Jailer has some issues in the current metagame. The big one is that there are a ton of disposable bodies floating around (e.g. Baleful Strix, Snapcaster) as well as creatures that make taking the crown back easy (e.g. TNN and Young Pyromancer). If I had a 76th card in my list, it'd probably be Jailer. He's always in my consideration pile.
I think Jailer is fantastically overrated. It is great card advantage, there is no doubt about it, but you straight up lose the game if a controlly deck takes monarch from you. Watching a jailer come down with cavern protection only to get snapcaster swordsed EOT is just one of many reasons monarch is too risky. I much prefer something like sea-gate wreckage if you're looking for long term card advantage. I find card advantage to be more important in the more creature based matchups because of how inefficient our creatures can be, and matchups where card advantage is less important we aren't generally running jailer anyways. The problem with creature matchups is we use card advantage (artificial or otherwise) to create equal board states, but if we ever lose monarch for even a couple turns it proves near impossible to come back from because of how much more powerful other decks' draws are compared to ours. I'd much rather be running sea-gate wreckage mainboard and a Banisher Priest somewhere in the 75.
I've been touting Sea-Gate Wreckage for a long time, although I think it's importance diminished with the fall of Miracles. With the rise of Czech pile and the general reduction in speed the format has seen, I think sea-gate wreckage is in a better position than ever. Worst case it is a colorless utility land that gets wastelanded, which then still protects our ports against Czech Pile. Unlike Miracles, Czech has no real lock and, at least in my experience, has almost no ability to come back from a DNT deck drawing 3-4 extra cards over the course of the game.
Have tuned in right now and it's great episode so far. You're a really likeable guy, and I always enjoy listening to you. Please keep it up
What's missing from the "history section" for me personally was the great upheaval that the M10 rules change (combat damage NOT going on the stack any more) stirred up, which was what broke Stonecloaker's neck for making the list in first place, and also played a part in dimishing the (limited, but we didn't have much else to choose from back then :)) power and utility of Isamaru, Hound of Konda, since bouncing after assigning, but before dealing damage was not a thing any more. The deck was declared dead back then by many - if only they had known that its greatest feats were yet to come...
Edit: In case you need additional assistance with/advice on building that streaming PC, I'd be very happy to help.
Took a break from legacy for a while and recently came back testing b/w with Kitesail Freebooters. Don't do it. Just don't.
I always try to do cute things with splashes and 1 of oddities, but this morning I decided to sleeve up mono white. No tricks, just straight reliable savagery. Sometimes I shouldn't try to fix what isn't broken as the standard list brought me to a Top 4 finish, losing only to a new version of mono red sneak attack with 4 blood suns.
So I think I'm gonna take the plunge and go from playing some tier 2-3 white weenie deck with MD Cataclysm to actually getting the lands to do this right. Play testing has showed me that there is no overstating the difference.
I know that Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is sometimes said to fill the same role as Cataclysm, but I'm not sure I understand that. They seem very similar. Can someone clarify this?
I'm also debating the flex-spots in the mana-base. I have Caverns there for now, but I also have a playset of Flagstones of Trokair and a pair of Dust Bowls lying around. I this possibility mentioned on Thraben University, but I haven't really seen it used much. Is it still viable, or is there too much anti-nonbasic effects for it to be reasonable to drop to 6 Plains? Should I maybe just consider 2-3x Flagstones, since my SB does have Cataclysm at present?
I figure I should also squeeze in a Palace Jailor, though I know some people are mixed on that card. I've also not seen much use of Brimaz, Serra Avenger, and Mangara of Corondor in a while. Is there a reason these have fallen out of favor?
Finally, Dread of Night and Sulfur Elemental still seem nasty. Is there any specific way to deal with this, other than CJ or Gideon AoZ?
This link has a discussion of Gideon vs Cataclysm.
Your list seems pretty reasonable. I wouldn't go so deep to try the Flagstones/Dust Bowl thing right now, especially if you are a new pilot to the deck. Learning to play a stock list goes a long way; once you've got that down, you can start experimenting.
As far as the hate cards go, you do your best to slog through them. It's not easy, and you can only play around them to a certain extent.
Jailer is a risky card. I'm not about risks. Mangara is a bit slow right now in the meta, but the other cards are fine.
Thanks for the feedback on the list and answers to questions.
Regarding the Cataclysm/Gideon comparison, I guess I missed that page. It's interesting and thanks for point me to it. I can't imagine dropping below 2x Cataclysm because of how many opponents just die to it. I could potentially free up another slot by dropping the 3rd Crusader or the Paladin, but I don't see anyone run more than 2x 2WW spells (and a third RiP or something else might be better).
I'll stick with a traditional list right now. The Flagstones/Dust Bowl combo was just a thought; I have them anyway and can try it at some future point. I'm also likely to toy around with 4 Crusaders at some point (for a while I did this with a modernized Shadowclysm-type deck). But that's for a later day. Right now, the only MD change I see as likely in the immediate future is trying to cram in the 2nd Prelate.
You're probably right about Jailer, and Cataclysm kills most decks that he'd be reliable against. Mangara being slow I can also see. I got them anyway, but they can sit in a binder until called for. The meta looks fast right now, but I'm not quite a practiced enough Legacy player to be sure.
First, reducing casting costs isn't as relevant to us, because Stoneforge Mystic is often going to cheat Equipment into play, uncounterably, at Instant speed, more cheaply. Yes, you might save 1 on Jitte, but that's about it. Reduction on Equip costs would have been better.
Given that the ability is weak, we have to evaluate her primarily as a combat creature. CMC=3 for a 2/2 creature is pretty bad in White. While the keyword stack is nice, I'd argue it doesn't put her over Aerial Responder, which flies for evasion or blocking Delver. At that point, she's competing with other CMC=3 combat-focused cards like Mirran Crusader, Brimaz, King of Oreskos, and Thalia, Heretic Cathar, and it's hard to argue she's better than these alternatives.
I think there is now too much competition at the 3cmc slot. I'm complaining about good things I know but in order for me to strongly consider this it would need to be a 3/2. Right now I'm considering a 3rd Recruiter over all else.
On the positive note:
I'm expremely interested in trying out these two. They're both legendary so they can be protected with Karakas, and they're tutorable with Sisay if you run her. Shalai in particular is a huge addition to the deck, giving hexproof against most removal and discard in the format. Even if her activated ability is wasted she's still a huge bomb.
They're also both 3W so they don't require a big colored mana investment.
Here's what I wrote when I moved to the 4x Crusader build originally:
"I decided that I wanted to win the Czech Pile matchup via virtual card advantage (i.e. not by out-grinding, but by invalidating opposing resources, effectively putting myself ahead). 4 copies of Crusader and 2 Recruiters to find them meant that I would very consistently be able to stick a very difficult to remove threat that didn’t get bogged down by Baleful Strix and other small chump blockers. While my opponent would likely have a couple of answers in the 75, I had a long-term gameplan. Previously, I had used SoLaS to push through Strix as well as recoup card advantage, but that was no longer needed."
Palace Jailer has some issues in the current metagame. The big one is that there are a ton of disposable bodies floating around (e.g. Baleful Strix, Snapcaster) as well as creatures that make taking the crown back easy (e.g. TNN and Young Pyromancer). If I had a 76th card in my list, it'd probably be Jailer. He's always in my consideration pile.
I've been touting Sea-Gate Wreckage for a long time, although I think it's importance diminished with the fall of Miracles. With the rise of Czech pile and the general reduction in speed the format has seen, I think sea-gate wreckage is in a better position than ever. Worst case it is a colorless utility land that gets wastelanded, which then still protects our ports against Czech Pile. Unlike Miracles, Czech has no real lock and, at least in my experience, has almost no ability to come back from a DNT deck drawing 3-4 extra cards over the course of the game.
What's missing from the "history section" for me personally was the great upheaval that the M10 rules change (combat damage NOT going on the stack any more) stirred up, which was what broke Stonecloaker's neck for making the list in first place, and also played a part in dimishing the (limited, but we didn't have much else to choose from back then :)) power and utility of Isamaru, Hound of Konda, since bouncing after assigning, but before dealing damage was not a thing any more. The deck was declared dead back then by many - if only they had known that its greatest feats were yet to come...
Edit: In case you need additional assistance with/advice on building that streaming PC, I'd be very happy to help.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Glad you enjoyed it! That article was mostly finished for a week or so, but I just didn't have time to polish it up until winter break.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
My regularly scheduled stream times are going to be ~7:00 PM Eastern Time on Monday and Wednesdays. Check it out!
xoxoxox -Phil
I always try to do cute things with splashes and 1 of oddities, but this morning I decided to sleeve up mono white. No tricks, just straight reliable savagery. Sometimes I shouldn't try to fix what isn't broken as the standard list brought me to a Top 4 finish, losing only to a new version of mono red sneak attack with 4 blood suns.
@vimon23
Here's my building on a budget page for the deck.
This is the list I'm looking at right now.
2 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Palace Jailer
1 Sanctum Prelate
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
Land
6 Plains
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
7 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Rishadan Port
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Walking Ballista
2 Phyrexian Revoker
Instant
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Containment Priest
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Rest in Peace
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Path to Exile
2 Council's Judgment
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
I know that Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is sometimes said to fill the same role as Cataclysm, but I'm not sure I understand that. They seem very similar. Can someone clarify this?
I'm also debating the flex-spots in the mana-base. I have Caverns there for now, but I also have a playset of Flagstones of Trokair and a pair of Dust Bowls lying around. I this possibility mentioned on Thraben University, but I haven't really seen it used much. Is it still viable, or is there too much anti-nonbasic effects for it to be reasonable to drop to 6 Plains? Should I maybe just consider 2-3x Flagstones, since my SB does have Cataclysm at present?
I figure I should also squeeze in a Palace Jailor, though I know some people are mixed on that card. I've also not seen much use of Brimaz, Serra Avenger, and Mangara of Corondor in a while. Is there a reason these have fallen out of favor?
Finally, Dread of Night and Sulfur Elemental still seem nasty. Is there any specific way to deal with this, other than CJ or Gideon AoZ?
And any other tips for a novice that I missed?
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Your list seems pretty reasonable. I wouldn't go so deep to try the Flagstones/Dust Bowl thing right now, especially if you are a new pilot to the deck. Learning to play a stock list goes a long way; once you've got that down, you can start experimenting.
As far as the hate cards go, you do your best to slog through them. It's not easy, and you can only play around them to a certain extent.
Jailer is a risky card. I'm not about risks. Mangara is a bit slow right now in the meta, but the other cards are fine.
Regarding the Cataclysm/Gideon comparison, I guess I missed that page. It's interesting and thanks for point me to it. I can't imagine dropping below 2x Cataclysm because of how many opponents just die to it. I could potentially free up another slot by dropping the 3rd Crusader or the Paladin, but I don't see anyone run more than 2x 2WW spells (and a third RiP or something else might be better).
I'll stick with a traditional list right now. The Flagstones/Dust Bowl combo was just a thought; I have them anyway and can try it at some future point. I'm also likely to toy around with 4 Crusaders at some point (for a while I did this with a modernized Shadowclysm-type deck). But that's for a later day. Right now, the only MD change I see as likely in the immediate future is trying to cram in the 2nd Prelate.
You're probably right about Jailer, and Cataclysm kills most decks that he'd be reliable against. Mangara being slow I can also see. I got them anyway, but they can sit in a binder until called for. The meta looks fast right now, but I'm not quite a practiced enough Legacy player to be sure.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
First, reducing casting costs isn't as relevant to us, because Stoneforge Mystic is often going to cheat Equipment into play, uncounterably, at Instant speed, more cheaply. Yes, you might save 1 on Jitte, but that's about it. Reduction on Equip costs would have been better.
Given that the ability is weak, we have to evaluate her primarily as a combat creature. CMC=3 for a 2/2 creature is pretty bad in White. While the keyword stack is nice, I'd argue it doesn't put her over Aerial Responder, which flies for evasion or blocking Delver. At that point, she's competing with other CMC=3 combat-focused cards like Mirran Crusader, Brimaz, King of Oreskos, and Thalia, Heretic Cathar, and it's hard to argue she's better than these alternatives.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
On the positive note:
I'm expremely interested in trying out these two. They're both legendary so they can be protected with Karakas, and they're tutorable with Sisay if you run her. Shalai in particular is a huge addition to the deck, giving hexproof against most removal and discard in the format. Even if her activated ability is wasted she's still a huge bomb.
They're also both 3W so they don't require a big colored mana investment.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB