Then you just get to swoop in with a couple 2/2s and clean up the game.
Might be missing something here, but how well do Gideon and Cat really work together? If you have Gideon there already, Cat wipes him out. Same with your tokens. Post-Cat, it may take some time to build back up to 4-5 mana for Gideon (unless you have so much mana that you can float 4-5 for Gideon through the Cat). The more we play sweepers, the more opponents will start to sandbag lands/creatures, enabling them to recover more easily as well, especially for decks like Eldrazi that can sandbag redundant mana acceleration.
Lastly, is Cat really a viable postboard option against Elves? I mean sure it could work, but my sig: we have plenty of better options like targeted removal, Containment Priest, Canonist, Needle, etc. and only limited slots to take out.
Historically speaking, yes. We used to run 3-4 maindeck Cataclysms precisely because our cards were more efficient and served multiple roles. This stopped mostly because of Tarmogoyf: we could no longer guarantee that we had the biggest post-Cat threat (compare to Eldrazi today). The question is what changed since then. As above, I'm not sure Gideon changes the math so much, but THC is definitely powerful post-Cat. The most common complaint about THC is that she gets less effective as the game goes on, but the ability to reset the game to turn 1 with THC on board is huge. In fact, it points to 3-THC maindeck designs heavily considering Cataclysm specifically to reset the boardstate to when the Thalia twins are at their most effective.
In short, again I might be missing something with Gideon+Cat, but THC+Cat seems really big. Thoughts?
Of the options mentioned in your article, I like MD path the most, but it still doesn't solve the problem if you break the deck down like I did a few pages back.
23 lands is base so let's just keep that number and move on, we can revisit later.
Thalia, Mom, Wisp, and SFM are the core of the deck and at most we can touch one of these 16 cards. Thalia being our only real G1 play against spell-based decks makes her untouchable, leaving us with Mom, Flickerwisp, and SFM. All have very good reasons to be 4-ofs.
Artifact + Removal suite = 11 untouchable cards.
23 + 16 + 11 leaves us with 50 cards. You can cut a Mom, Flickerwisp, or SFM to drop that to 49.
These 10-11 cards is where ALL our problems lie. We effectively have 2 sets of 8 cards we want in these slots - New School Hate: 3 THC, 3 Recruiter, 2 prelate; Old School Beaters: 3 Revoker, 3 Serra Avenger, and 2 Mirran Crusader.
If you go with the Beater set, you can pick 2x your favorite hatebear card and be done with the conversation whether that be a card from the new sets or not.
If you go with the Hate set (what's been dominating the deck lately), that's where you have problems. First up, they're all 3CMC where 6/8 of the old ones are 2CMC. This goes back up to the lands where we can add a 24th land, but still can't really afford to cut a card. So 24land/61cards? That's being tried, we have yet to see how it shakes out. Also, you still haven't put together a feasible beatdown package. Do you just completely forego beatdown? Or do you use those 2 slots to add in Avengers/Crusaders, a rather anemic looking beatdown package if I do say so myself.
There's valid argument for just shifting back to aggressive filler, but I don't see many people choosing that right now. Could just be that we have new toys and we ultimately play this game because it's fun. Could be that we just aren't properly analyzing the different parts of the deck and what we want to get out of each card and/or considering our place in the meta and what we NEED to be getting out of each card. I don't have the answers, but it's a really tough question that could definitely use a lot of discussion and justification on both sides.
I'm back on 3x Serra Avenger for exactly the reasons you are discussing. The beater aspect of the deck cannot be ignored. The follow up question that is much harder is, "Much much of this can be hate vs how much needs to be aggressive?" THC overlaps and fills both roles, which may be an argument for her inclusion.
It's funny that you mention the math of 61 card decks; that will likely be my next piece of content for the site. I have something in the works.
I've played Weathered Wayfarer (which Medea/Phil is proposing in the closing of his most recent article) a real lot a few years back, although not in D&T. I guess it could still pull its weight in an appropriate shell today - but I'm quite sure D&T just isn't that. Wayfarer is most effective when you're both behind your opponent on mana development, AND you got mana to spare, which is quite a paradoxical situation to be in. In Legacy, that can work out because there's the possiblity of having "free" spells to cast (the deck I played had both Force of Will and Daze in it, the latter of which is probably the single most synergistic card for Wayfarer decks to run). In D&T, that effectively means you need to have an Aether Vial - itself one of those one-drops that we'd like to increase in number - active. If you just have him sitting there, durdling up one land (even chaining Wasteland, which is what UW Tempo chose to do most of the time, isn't that strong on its own if your opponent knows how to play around that, if their deck allows for that) a turn for a one-mana investment, you'll probably get killed in the process if you cannot interact with whatever else your opponent might be doing. And that, in Legacy, pretty much has to involve (mana-)costless interaction on the stack. You'll also painfully miss the mana elsewhere - Port, Stoneforge, Equipment are required for D&T to work, too. Wayfarer also requires fetchlands to operate at peak efficiency (pay fetch costs, hold priority, activate Wayfarer -> tutor land, put land onto battlefield). I think it's safe to rule Wayfarer out for this deck, even though I'd really like to run that little dude again some time.
As for Knight of the White Orchid, I think the 2/2 first strike body for WW is just too weak, even with the cute (and sometimes really powerful) effect attached.
If we're so desperately looking for something that beats and is cheap to cast... maybe it's time to release the dogs once more? Isamaru, Hound of Konda is a one-drop, survives -1/-1-hate, and can be Karakas-protected from sweepers and spot removal.
I've also looked at Kytheon, Hero of Akros recently, since its indestructible-switch could provide some neat late-game utility - but I don't like the fact that he's another 1-toughness creature. (The turns-into-walker-stuff isn't really that relevant, I think.)
@jermstuddog: it may be true that these new printings are a head-fake. That would be some cruel irony where we get what we wanted and it makes us worse.
@colo and others: Returning to first principles, I'd suggest looking at what we can reasonably consider offense. While Batterskull requires help from Mystic, we shouldn't forget it. After all, it the card that caused some of us to drop our previous staple beater: Jötun Grunt. I'd also argue that Flickerwisp, while slow and fragile, can be an army-in-a-can when paired with Recruiter.
With that in mind, how great must a vanilla beater be and still merit inclusion? In other words, do we need specific abilities to address specific matchups, or is a big dumb brute enough? We can treat this as a hypothetical or look at real cards. Would you auto-include a hypothetical vanilla 3/2 Goat for W (this isn't a yes/no question)? How many, and at the expense of what staples? For example I'm not sure it's strictly better than Avenger, because she's so good despite her combination of cost and tribe.
I think we can expand our search to 2-drops, especially if they are human or cost 1W/2. The problem is that the bar for inclusion is insanely high (see Goat example above). If I were seriously considering Isamaru and wanted nothing more than a vanilla guy, I think I'd first try your earlier suggestion of Epochrasite. I might also look to Grunt again; he even almost works with Cavern since Recruiters and both Thalias are Soldiers, and having more options to annoy Lands, Deathrite, and graveyard decks is gravy.
I appreciate the out-of-the-box thinking for Kytheon, but he suffers from a less serious form of Displacer Syndrome: when would you ever be so hard pressed to save an otherwise unremarkable 2/1 that you'd be willing to pay 2W? Furthermore, at that late point in the game, was the initial cost of one an actual strike against it (because you might have spent that total of 4 mana to get something with more board presence and that didn't require saving). I don't want to be too hard on what's ultimately just brainstorming, but I'm not seeing Kytheon adding much to our offensive line.
Aside: my mind keeps coming back to acceleration. A combination of Moxen/SolLand, Flagstones, THC, and maindeck Armageddon/Cataclysm could potentially be amazing. Accelerate into blowing everything up, then repeat as necessary while getting ahead with Vial, manarocks, etc. If THC is amazing in turns 1-2, return the game to that state and milk the value. I just have no idea how to build it. Maybe a hybrid between our current designs and Medea's brew (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=494)?
A simpler idea: Instead of 3 Recruiter 2 THC, how about 2 and 3? This gets closer to the deck AntiquatedNotion used to top8 EE, and simultaneously stresses early-game availability of THC and greater presence of combat-viable creatures. (To be fair, he mentioned wanting to drop a THC to add another Recruiter. Hmm.)
There are tons of options for cards that I *could* try to help bridge that gap. Thorn of Amethyst would be a disruptive two drop that is synergistic with the mana denial portion of the deck while not messing with our creatures. Dismember is another removal spell that I could play through Prelate on one. Wall of Omens plays well with Flickerwisp, could soak up some initial damage, and add to the chance of hitting additional land drops. Aegis of the Gods could prevent some interaction on my opponent's end.
The issue is that many of the options I'm finding in Gatherer searches fall flat in some regard. Thorn doesn't play well with Thalia and can't be Vialed in; it's also a terrible topdeck. Dismember isn't great against Delver/Burn later on in the game when your life total is already low. Wall of Omens doesn't pick up equipment and get in for damage; it's also not doing anything against combo. Aegis of the Gods is an enchantment, and grows the Tarmogoyf in the same problematic way that SotL does.
I did a podcast with Zachary Koch of MtG Training Grounds on Aether Vial. There's a ton of good D&T information sprinkled throughout, though the episode isn't specifically about D&T. You can find both the versions with and without video here.
I'd also argue that Flickerwisp, while slow and fragile, can be an army-in-a-can when paired with Recruiter.
I can't agree with this more, and also think it somewhat undercuts the idea that we absolutely need 3-4 pure beaters. This line of play is very aggressive once it gets going.
THC is also a damn fine beater, as people have made mention not to forget. I'm also keen to look for any card that is only a single W mana; maybe this is why I like her and Recruiter so much. I think the main problem, historically, has more been getting to WW than it has been getting to 3 mana, and it's extremely likely by the time you have 3 mana, you have at least one W. It argues for Blade Splicer or the like in any leftover flex spots if cast-ability is the main worry. When you start gumming up the works with multiple first strikers, even Tarmogoyf and Gurmag Angler aren't a problem. That only leaves having access to an amount of removal you are comfortable with for Delver.
By the way, regarding Sol-lands, can we assume Ancient Tomb would be the better include over City of Traitors? Has anyone tried either with a good amount of testing? I know we should mostly be averse to lands that come into play tapped, but yet again I'm thinking of Remote Farm lately. You're likely to help yourself with white-mana issues that way, and get your acceleration for THC or Prelate. With any acceleration lands, the most I'd risk is 2 slots in lieu of keeping the Cavern of Souls count the same. I wonder if that'd be a enough of a noticeable difference.
I'm not sure if I like the idea of Armageddon maindeck. That's generally more for decks that play a lot of lands before they start threatening your life total. Against an aggro deck, you're more likely to have to respond to their threats, and Geddon probably wouldn't be part of that sequence until you stabilize, and once you've to that point, is Geddon a game-changer, or a win-more? I'm not sure. It's definitely a changer for those slow decks - Miracles, Lands, 12-Post - but probably win-more in most other situations. I'd love to be proven wrong on this, however.
Speaking of defying reason, here's Alexandre Dudziak with a brazen Bazaar of Moxen Legacy Championship Top 8 list with Serra Avengers AND 3 Cavern of Souls:
This certainly bucks my assertion that you pick Cavern or Avenger, and he's even got the splash going for Magus in the side, much like I still do for Orzhov Pontiff. He runs one less R-producing land than I do for B production, but close enough. Interesting...
Assuming we don't need 4 mana on turn 3, you need Remote Farm on turn 0/1 in order to have 3 on turn 2 (unlike with sollands), and you'll never have 2 on turn 1 (unlike with moxen/petals). Given that you'll only really have a couple of these in the deck, that possibility seems remote (heh joke). Geddon/Cat works well with depletion lands though.
I am also contemplating Magus of the Moon in the side, at which point I would add 2 Plateau. It is a beast against Lands, Shardless BUG and BUG Delver, and Eldrazi. Because I actually play against Storm and High Tide (I know, right? Who plays that?!) frequently at my locals, I have more anti-combo hate in the sideboard, but I think at a big event I would really like the Magi.
That is probably my maindeck for the Baltimore Open next month.
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@redtwister, re: Magus. Are Lands, BUG decks, and Eldrazi really matchups where we need Magus to get ahead though? Those all seem solidly positive to me now with just a combination of THC, Prelate, and a recruitable Mirran Crusader. I know you basically have to choose between only one color to splash, but I find Pontiff breaks parity more against the decks that are even or slightly unfavorable to begin with: The DnT Mirror, Infect, Grixis Delver, Elves, Stoneblade, etc. Is there something else I'm missing?
I've been meaning to ask about this. Is Lands positive? Medea mentioned Lands being two of the unfavorable matchups he had at EE. To be fair he wasn't running THC. Is new Thalia then the key to flipping this MU in our favor (i.e. recuited Prelates aren't enough)? As we grapple with the number of THC to run, this might be a relevant factor.
Newer player to the deck here, but from my moderate experience THC hasn't been that great. She reminds me a lot of Spirit of the Labyrinth; insane unsalvagable blowout when the stars align but otherwise just kinda meh. 3/2 First Strike is a great body but the ability tends to be too late unless my opponent already was way behind in mana. I can see how she would be the cornerstone in the land MU but against basically every other deck I'd rather have a lower curve with the full playset of moms
EDIT: something else I've been meaning to ask; against what MUs does Gideon Ally of Zendikar come in? I know it's mainly for miracles but there he has been fairly mediocre for me at least. I got to cast him four times against miracles in the last week, twice he got countered, twice my opponent had a creature on the field and Gideon could make two tokens before dying. Am I supposed to pop him for the emblem earlier?
I've been meaning to ask about this. Is Lands positive? Medea mentioned Lands being two of the unfavorable matchups he had at EE. To be fair he wasn't running THC. Is new Thalia then the key to flipping this MU in our favor (i.e. recuited Prelates aren't enough)? As we grapple with the number of THC to run, this might be a relevant factor.
I think it is. Even if Lands assembles the Marit Lage early, we have several ways to hold it back: Karakas, Flickerwisp/Banisher Priest, and last resort, Plowshares. but in the meantime, they are usually spending the early to midgame casting Loam and Punishing Fire. You then could just naturally curve into a Prelate or THC and hamper them even more. THC curbs some of the gain from Exploration, for example, and many cards that they would Crop Rotation for are just not as good under a THC on board. Prelate, as we know, shuts off their main 2 engine spells, so there's that, too.
It's also fairly easy to get either of them. We play a good amount of basics, and don't have to worry about permission, so with Recruiter in the mix, it's a good bet you'll have one online by turn 4, with enough to stop from getting killed by Marit Lage early.
For my part, I'm bringing in the following against lands now: +2 Path to Exile, +2 Rest in Peace, +1 Surgical Extraction, +1 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Disenchant, and +1 Council's Judgment. Feel pretty good about Lands. You guys bringing in Gideon here, too? Seems alright since it gets around Tabernacle, but room seems tight.
Far as THC in general, re: "grappling"... It's been proven the deck is still good without her, but if you like the card for reasons X, Y, Z, then go for it. I'm not sure either way is "correct", but I just feel, ability aside, she's got enough value in the format even as a 3/2 First Strike with Karakas-protection and Cavern-compatibility. You may disagree; but I think her ability puts her over the top in the times where it is an atom bomb, and at her lows, I still find the card serviceable.
This is the deck list that I took to a 4-2 finish in the Eternal Weekend Trial yesterday at GP Providence.
Round 1 2-1 vs Mirror
Game 1 - My opponent was on the play. I was the second person to get a Umezawa's Jitte and potentially get it online. Suffice it to say, he took the lead and held it until I died without dealing a point of damage. I had Phyrexian Revoker on Mother of Runes since I didn't have one, he did. He answered it and I lost traction quick when he got a second Mom online.
Game 2 - Was a bit of a slog. He had a bit of an early start, but in the end I was able to set up with Mirran Crusader with an Umezawa's Jitte and won in two attacks.
Game 3 - Went super long, she gained a lot of life through Glimmerpost and I didn't see a single Wasteland. After several Cloudpost hit play she resolved Ugin, the Spirit Dragon which I threw about seven permanents into before I could finally force her to use all his loyalty and I was finally past it. I had an active Mangara of Corondor late in the game but since I had to use a Leonin Relic-Warder on a Metalworker she was able to use a Spatial Contortion to get it back while my Mangara was sick from being summoned, and she went infinite killing with Reservoir in play again. I made several mistakes, like throwing creatures into Chalice of the Void when I had the option to drop a Flickerwisp into play to reset Chalice.
1-1
Round 3 - Sneak and Show 1-0
Opponent came in several minutes late and faced a game loss as a result. Offered to play a game or two for fun, but we chatted for a bit and decided to get some food.
Round 5 DnT w/Red splash 1-2
Game 1 - He got mana screwed after I started with a couple Wasteland and just wrecked him with a Batterskull and Sword of Fire and Ice.
Game 3 - I kept a super greedy one land Aether Vial value hand, but he went turn three Duergar Hedge-Mage to destroy it. I didn't draw additional lands until turns six, eight and nine. At that point I couldn't recover and died.
3-2
Enough for 11th out of 36 and between the tix my Fiance and I earn we pick up a Snapcaster Mage and 5 packs of Kaladesh as well as a lot of fun for the day. (Friend on Lands used Ghost Quarter to leave his Burn opponent with 0 Lands in play and in library)
General Notes:
1. Need to play a bit tighter and think a bit more on complicated lines.
2. Mangara is still awesome, keeping two in the 75.
3. Need to forget the Prelate silly stuff in the mirror. Prelate as a 1 of just really doesn't often come up. Don't get cute, get better.
4. Cataclysm was decent, but I might be moving on soon.
5. 2 Cavern didn't really come up, but one of my local metas is full of Miracles, the other is full of Mid-Range True-Name Nemesis decks. I will likely keep the 2 Cavern to ensure resolving key creatures. (Stoneforge Mystic, both Thalia, Recruiter of the Guard, Phyrexian Revoker)
6. Really happy with the main deck overall. I may try a Sword of Feast and Famine in the board for a bit.
*Edit, my browser served me page 619, so my responses are to comments a few days back...*
@colo
I'm going to try the Stonecloaker. This weekend there were several times I was recruiting and found myself thumbing an Avenger to the front. Being able to recruit a flying beater like this would have been very clutch in several situations.
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@Medea & @SwordsToTimeshares
I've been off the Cavern plan for a while and I haven't missed it. I value being able to cast Flickerwisps and Avengers more consistently in all games than I do being able to stick a dude in the blue matchups. I feel like we're so favored against blue decks that Cavern is often a win more card.
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Hey all! Just got back from SCGMKE. I scrubbed out of Modern on Saturday in time to make the 4PM Legacy event with a couple dozen people. I also played in the Legacy Classic of course. I ran medium, going 2-2 on Saturday and very turbulent (win-loss-win-loss-win-loss-drop) 3-3-drop on Sunday. No real highlights from Saturday other than I played against fun match against well-known player who I really respect. That was awesome. I was particularly happy with my sideboard this weekend:
- Got blown out by Omniscience... forgot about that one. He cast Show and Tell and I opted for the greedy play of dropping a Recruiter. I had Karakas in play and had him dead next to so I reasoned it was a desperation hail mary banking on me forgetting about it. Nope! He then hardcast Emrakul. I had the Flickerwisp in hand too.
- Prelate overperformed all weekend. I am considering a future where we run 4 main deck. I used to be worried about naming 'the right' number on him, but I am now realizing that the uncertainty is exactly one of his strengths because the opponent doesn't know what you're going to name either.
- I stormed off with D&T! Late game, we're both hellbent, the board is empty, I have a Vial on 3 and a Vial on 2 plus a million (like, 8) lands. I top deck a Recruiter. What's the play?
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Pop quiz. You're' playing against Infect. It is Game 2. Turn two you drop a SFM, grab Jitte. Turn three you drop a Thalia. Turn 4 you SFM in Jitte, equip Thalia, swing. No blocks. He has a Viridian Corrupter, a Glistener Elf, and 2 Inkmoth. You have 2 counters on the Jitte. What do you do?
I just passed the turn. He untaps and Krosan Grips the Jitte. Should I have tried to shoot something down on my mainphase? If so what?
I got 3rd or 4th at an IQ this weekend playing the same 75 from EE. Deck is great. Avengers are great. I don't miss THC.
@Curby
I beat Lands both times. Historically, I considered Lands a slightly unfavorable matchup, as we usually lose game one. Prelate changes that, and I may adjust that matchup once I've played more games. The matchup felt much better than in the past.
@Bearscape
Gideon just pluses infinitely against Miracles. They have a hard time beating the token stream. Against Shardless, all three modes are relevant, so it's really board-dependent on which one is best.
Pop quiz. You're' playing against Infect. It is Game 2. Turn two you drop a SFM, grab Jitte. Turn three you drop a Thalia. Turn 4 you SFM in Jitte, equip Thalia, swing. No blocks. He has a Viridian Corrupter, a Glistener Elf, and 2 Inkmoth. You have 2 counters on the Jitte. What do you do?
I think you made the right play. You can't account for Krosan Grip, but when you *know* it's coming in, perhaps that's even a situation where Prelate names "3", stopping both K-Grip and Invigorate. In the meantime, I think you made the right play, but I'd need a few more details.
Besides the 2 Inkmoths, how many other lands? If he swung with all 4 his creatures, is he tapped out? If so, you only have Invigorate to worry about, and if you can live through it, I might just take 4 poison, then kill the Inkmoths at eot with Jitte. I think that's the play I'd make most of the time.
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Might be missing something here, but how well do Gideon and Cat really work together? If you have Gideon there already, Cat wipes him out. Same with your tokens. Post-Cat, it may take some time to build back up to 4-5 mana for Gideon (unless you have so much mana that you can float 4-5 for Gideon through the Cat). The more we play sweepers, the more opponents will start to sandbag lands/creatures, enabling them to recover more easily as well, especially for decks like Eldrazi that can sandbag redundant mana acceleration.
Lastly, is Cat really a viable postboard option against Elves? I mean sure it could work, but my sig: we have plenty of better options like targeted removal, Containment Priest, Canonist, Needle, etc. and only limited slots to take out.
Historically speaking, yes. We used to run 3-4 maindeck Cataclysms precisely because our cards were more efficient and served multiple roles. This stopped mostly because of Tarmogoyf: we could no longer guarantee that we had the biggest post-Cat threat (compare to Eldrazi today). The question is what changed since then. As above, I'm not sure Gideon changes the math so much, but THC is definitely powerful post-Cat. The most common complaint about THC is that she gets less effective as the game goes on, but the ability to reset the game to turn 1 with THC on board is huge. In fact, it points to 3-THC maindeck designs heavily considering Cataclysm specifically to reset the boardstate to when the Thalia twins are at their most effective.
In short, again I might be missing something with Gideon+Cat, but THC+Cat seems really big. Thoughts?
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
I can't speak to viability, but Gideon and 0, then next turn animate him and cataclysm - he stays around and can keep making tokens after that.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
23 lands is base so let's just keep that number and move on, we can revisit later.
Thalia, Mom, Wisp, and SFM are the core of the deck and at most we can touch one of these 16 cards. Thalia being our only real G1 play against spell-based decks makes her untouchable, leaving us with Mom, Flickerwisp, and SFM. All have very good reasons to be 4-ofs.
Artifact + Removal suite = 11 untouchable cards.
23 + 16 + 11 leaves us with 50 cards. You can cut a Mom, Flickerwisp, or SFM to drop that to 49.
These 10-11 cards is where ALL our problems lie. We effectively have 2 sets of 8 cards we want in these slots - New School Hate: 3 THC, 3 Recruiter, 2 prelate; Old School Beaters: 3 Revoker, 3 Serra Avenger, and 2 Mirran Crusader.
If you go with the Beater set, you can pick 2x your favorite hatebear card and be done with the conversation whether that be a card from the new sets or not.
If you go with the Hate set (what's been dominating the deck lately), that's where you have problems. First up, they're all 3CMC where 6/8 of the old ones are 2CMC. This goes back up to the lands where we can add a 24th land, but still can't really afford to cut a card. So 24land/61cards? That's being tried, we have yet to see how it shakes out. Also, you still haven't put together a feasible beatdown package. Do you just completely forego beatdown? Or do you use those 2 slots to add in Avengers/Crusaders, a rather anemic looking beatdown package if I do say so myself.
There's valid argument for just shifting back to aggressive filler, but I don't see many people choosing that right now. Could just be that we have new toys and we ultimately play this game because it's fun. Could be that we just aren't properly analyzing the different parts of the deck and what we want to get out of each card and/or considering our place in the meta and what we NEED to be getting out of each card. I don't have the answers, but it's a really tough question that could definitely use a lot of discussion and justification on both sides.
I'm back on 3x Serra Avenger for exactly the reasons you are discussing. The beater aspect of the deck cannot be ignored. The follow up question that is much harder is, "Much much of this can be hate vs how much needs to be aggressive?" THC overlaps and fills both roles, which may be an argument for her inclusion.
It's funny that you mention the math of 61 card decks; that will likely be my next piece of content for the site. I have something in the works.
As for Knight of the White Orchid, I think the 2/2 first strike body for WW is just too weak, even with the cute (and sometimes really powerful) effect attached.
If we're so desperately looking for something that beats and is cheap to cast... maybe it's time to release the dogs once more? Isamaru, Hound of Konda is a one-drop, survives -1/-1-hate, and can be Karakas-protected from sweepers and spot removal.
I've also looked at Kytheon, Hero of Akros recently, since its indestructible-switch could provide some neat late-game utility - but I don't like the fact that he's another 1-toughness creature. (The turns-into-walker-stuff isn't really that relevant, I think.)
@colo and others: Returning to first principles, I'd suggest looking at what we can reasonably consider offense. While Batterskull requires help from Mystic, we shouldn't forget it. After all, it the card that caused some of us to drop our previous staple beater: Jötun Grunt. I'd also argue that Flickerwisp, while slow and fragile, can be an army-in-a-can when paired with Recruiter.
With that in mind, how great must a vanilla beater be and still merit inclusion? In other words, do we need specific abilities to address specific matchups, or is a big dumb brute enough? We can treat this as a hypothetical or look at real cards. Would you auto-include a hypothetical vanilla 3/2 Goat for W (this isn't a yes/no question)? How many, and at the expense of what staples? For example I'm not sure it's strictly better than Avenger, because she's so good despite her combination of cost and tribe.
I think we can expand our search to 2-drops, especially if they are human or cost 1W/2. The problem is that the bar for inclusion is insanely high (see Goat example above). If I were seriously considering Isamaru and wanted nothing more than a vanilla guy, I think I'd first try your earlier suggestion of Epochrasite. I might also look to Grunt again; he even almost works with Cavern since Recruiters and both Thalias are Soldiers, and having more options to annoy Lands, Deathrite, and graveyard decks is gravy.
I appreciate the out-of-the-box thinking for Kytheon, but he suffers from a less serious form of Displacer Syndrome: when would you ever be so hard pressed to save an otherwise unremarkable 2/1 that you'd be willing to pay 2W? Furthermore, at that late point in the game, was the initial cost of one an actual strike against it (because you might have spent that total of 4 mana to get something with more board presence and that didn't require saving). I don't want to be too hard on what's ultimately just brainstorming, but I'm not seeing Kytheon adding much to our offensive line.
Aside: my mind keeps coming back to acceleration. A combination of Moxen/SolLand, Flagstones, THC, and maindeck Armageddon/Cataclysm could potentially be amazing. Accelerate into blowing everything up, then repeat as necessary while getting ahead with Vial, manarocks, etc. If THC is amazing in turns 1-2, return the game to that state and milk the value. I just have no idea how to build it. Maybe a hybrid between our current designs and Medea's brew (http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=494)?
A simpler idea: Instead of 3 Recruiter 2 THC, how about 2 and 3? This gets closer to the deck AntiquatedNotion used to top8 EE, and simultaneously stresses early-game availability of THC and greater presence of combat-viable creatures. (To be fair, he mentioned wanting to drop a THC to add another Recruiter. Hmm.)
Pardon the rambling.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
There are tons of options for cards that I *could* try to help bridge that gap. Thorn of Amethyst would be a disruptive two drop that is synergistic with the mana denial portion of the deck while not messing with our creatures. Dismember is another removal spell that I could play through Prelate on one. Wall of Omens plays well with Flickerwisp, could soak up some initial damage, and add to the chance of hitting additional land drops. Aegis of the Gods could prevent some interaction on my opponent's end.
The issue is that many of the options I'm finding in Gatherer searches fall flat in some regard. Thorn doesn't play well with Thalia and can't be Vialed in; it's also a terrible topdeck. Dismember isn't great against Delver/Burn later on in the game when your life total is already low. Wall of Omens doesn't pick up equipment and get in for damage; it's also not doing anything against combo. Aegis of the Gods is an enchantment, and grows the Tarmogoyf in the same problematic way that SotL does.
THC is also a damn fine beater, as people have made mention not to forget. I'm also keen to look for any card that is only a single W mana; maybe this is why I like her and Recruiter so much. I think the main problem, historically, has more been getting to WW than it has been getting to 3 mana, and it's extremely likely by the time you have 3 mana, you have at least one W. It argues for Blade Splicer or the like in any leftover flex spots if cast-ability is the main worry. When you start gumming up the works with multiple first strikers, even Tarmogoyf and Gurmag Angler aren't a problem. That only leaves having access to an amount of removal you are comfortable with for Delver.
By the way, regarding Sol-lands, can we assume Ancient Tomb would be the better include over City of Traitors? Has anyone tried either with a good amount of testing? I know we should mostly be averse to lands that come into play tapped, but yet again I'm thinking of Remote Farm lately. You're likely to help yourself with white-mana issues that way, and get your acceleration for THC or Prelate. With any acceleration lands, the most I'd risk is 2 slots in lieu of keeping the Cavern of Souls count the same. I wonder if that'd be a enough of a noticeable difference.
Speaking of defying reason, here's Alexandre Dudziak with a brazen Bazaar of Moxen Legacy Championship Top 8 list with Serra Avengers AND 3 Cavern of Souls:
2 Karakas
3 Rishadan Port
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Plateau
8 Plains
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
3 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Banisher Priest
2 Serra Avenger
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Mirran Crusader
2 Sanctum Prelate
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Council's Judgment
2 Path to Exile
1 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
Re: BoM deck, it's quite a trip. 2 maindeck equipment, 3 Ports, toolbox package ...
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
That is extremely close to my current maindeck list (-1 Aven Mindcensor, +1 Stoneforge Mystic, -1 Cavern of Souls, -2 Plateau, +1 Plains, +2 Flagstones of Trokair.)
I am also contemplating Magus of the Moon in the side, at which point I would add 2 Plateau. It is a beast against Lands, Shardless BUG and BUG Delver, and Eldrazi. Because I actually play against Storm and High Tide (I know, right? Who plays that?!) frequently at my locals, I have more anti-combo hate in the sideboard, but I think at a big event I would really like the Magi.
That is probably my maindeck for the Baltimore Open next month.
Modern
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
I've been meaning to ask about this. Is Lands positive? Medea mentioned Lands being two of the unfavorable matchups he had at EE. To be fair he wasn't running THC. Is new Thalia then the key to flipping this MU in our favor (i.e. recuited Prelates aren't enough)? As we grapple with the number of THC to run, this might be a relevant factor.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
EDIT: something else I've been meaning to ask; against what MUs does Gideon Ally of Zendikar come in? I know it's mainly for miracles but there he has been fairly mediocre for me at least. I got to cast him four times against miracles in the last week, twice he got countered, twice my opponent had a creature on the field and Gideon could make two tokens before dying. Am I supposed to pop him for the emblem earlier?
It's also fairly easy to get either of them. We play a good amount of basics, and don't have to worry about permission, so with Recruiter in the mix, it's a good bet you'll have one online by turn 4, with enough to stop from getting killed by Marit Lage early.
For my part, I'm bringing in the following against lands now: +2 Path to Exile, +2 Rest in Peace, +1 Surgical Extraction, +1 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Disenchant, and +1 Council's Judgment. Feel pretty good about Lands. You guys bringing in Gideon here, too? Seems alright since it gets around Tabernacle, but room seems tight.
Far as THC in general, re: "grappling"... It's been proven the deck is still good without her, but if you like the card for reasons X, Y, Z, then go for it. I'm not sure either way is "correct", but I just feel, ability aside, she's got enough value in the format even as a 3/2 First Strike with Karakas-protection and Cavern-compatibility. You may disagree; but I think her ability puts her over the top in the times where it is an atom bomb, and at her lows, I still find the card serviceable.
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
9 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Creatures 26
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Æther Vial
1 Cataclysm
1 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Manriki-Gusari
2 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Rest in Peace
This is the deck list that I took to a 4-2 finish in the Eternal Weekend Trial yesterday at GP Providence.
Round 1 2-1 vs Mirror
Game 1 - My opponent was on the play. I was the second person to get a Umezawa's Jitte and potentially get it online. Suffice it to say, he took the lead and held it until I died without dealing a point of damage. I had Phyrexian Revoker on Mother of Runes since I didn't have one, he did. He answered it and I lost traction quick when he got a second Mom online.
Sideboard (Wanted to try something odd and different so bear with me) I was thinking that he would bring in multiple Path to Exile so I wanted to try trimming on 1 drop non-creature spells and keep Sanctum prelate with some 3 drop removal.
In:
2 Council's Judgment
1 Pithing Needle
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
Out:
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Aether Vial
Game 2 - Was a bit of a slog. He had a bit of an early start, but in the end I was able to set up with Mirran Crusader with an Umezawa's Jitte and won in two attacks.
Game 3 - I started with Aether Vial and had Pithing Needle on Umezawa's Jitte while my Sword of Fire and Ice equipped Batterskull token slowly beat him to death.
1-0
Round 2 Mud Aetherflux Reservoir (Also my Fiance :mad:) 1-2
Game 1 - I had a very aggressive start and was able to shut down everything she did.
Sideboard
In:
1 Cataclysm
2 Council's Judgment
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Pithing Needle
Out:
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Mother of Runes
Game 2 - Was semi long as I found a lot of Flickerwisp and things of the sort which bought time but didn't stop her from Metalworker and Staff of Domination Combo into Aetherflux Reservoir to shoot me for fifty :/ Cataclysm was decent, but she kept the Chalice of the Void on 1 instead of 2 and I had multiple Swords to Plowshares, she only knew about the Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.
Game 3 - Went super long, she gained a lot of life through Glimmerpost and I didn't see a single Wasteland. After several Cloudpost hit play she resolved Ugin, the Spirit Dragon which I threw about seven permanents into before I could finally force her to use all his loyalty and I was finally past it. I had an active Mangara of Corondor late in the game but since I had to use a Leonin Relic-Warder on a Metalworker she was able to use a Spatial Contortion to get it back while my Mangara was sick from being summoned, and she went infinite killing with Reservoir in play again. I made several mistakes, like throwing creatures into Chalice of the Void when I had the option to drop a Flickerwisp into play to reset Chalice.
1-1
Round 3 - Sneak and Show 1-0
Opponent came in several minutes late and faced a game loss as a result. Offered to play a game or two for fun, but we chatted for a bit and decided to get some food.
No sideboarding
Game "2" - Turn 1 Aether Vial on the draw was met with Force of Will, turn two Aether Vial resolved. Opponent went Ponder, Ponder, Ponder, Brainstorm, Show and Tell into Omniscience one card left in hand. In the meantime I got a Stoneforge Mystic off Aether Vial and retrieved a Sword of Fire and Ice while I used double Rishadan Port each turn to restrict plays while swinging with Mystic. I put in Flickerwisp off Show and Tell to hit Omniscience, then ticked Vial up to three. Used the turn to put Sword into play and equip to Flickerwisp to deal seven damage. On my opponent's next upkeep I used Aether Vial to put in a second Flickerwisp to exile Omniscience until end of turn and when I presented lethal my opponent revealed the Emrakul, the Aeons Torn that he had in hand that entire time.
2-1
Round 4 - Burn 2-0
Game 1 - I got an early Aether Vial, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Mother of Runes. He slowly curved from Monastery Swiftspear that couldn't attack into four land and two Sulfuric Vortex by the time I put in Stoneforge Mystic and then Batterskull. I was able to end of turn Aether Vial in Flickerwisp to exile one of the Sulfuric Vortex and then suit up Batterskull to deal exactly nine damage which was conveniently his life total.
Sideboard
In:
1 Council's Judgment
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Ethersworn Canonist
Out:
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Game 2 Opponent was stuck on one land, I had an early Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and then had a Mangara of Corondor exile it so he scooped.
3-1
Round 5 DnT w/Red splash 1-2
Game 1 - He got mana screwed after I started with a couple Wasteland and just wrecked him with a Batterskull and Sword of Fire and Ice.
Sideboard (again, trying something different)
In:
2 Council's Judgment
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Pithing Needle
Out:
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Swords to Plowshares
Game 2 - Was very long and ended when I had a couple Aether Vial and Pithing Needle on Umezawa's Jitte. He was able to Council's Judgment the Pithing Needle and get a Jitte online. After two Flickerwisp and a Manriki-Gusari I killed Jitte but couldn't find removal when he found Mother of Runes. He eventually found Containment Priest and then proceeded to find all four Flickerwisp while I was tight on mana and couldn't use Aether Vial. I made a quick and horrible play when I found a Swords to Plowshares and missed out on my opportunity to answer Mother of Runes, I then scooped.
Game 3 - I kept a super greedy one land Aether Vial value hand, but he went turn three Duergar Hedge-Mage to destroy it. I didn't draw additional lands until turns six, eight and nine. At that point I couldn't recover and died.
3-2
Round 6 - BUG Birthing Pod 2-0
Game 1 - Had no idea what he was doing, I saw Abrupt Decay and Brainstorm. Between Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and then Flickerwisp chaining a Recruiter of the Guard he scooped really quick and lamented playing against DnT four times now.
Sideboard (assuming he is Shardless BUG)
In:
1 Cataclysm
1 Council's Judgment
2 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
Out:
1 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Aether Vial
Game 2 - He leads off Misty Rainforest into Tropical Island and Veteran Explorer. "Oh... That is what you are doing!". I lead off on an Aether Vial and he plays a Bayou and casts another Veteran Explorer, attacking for one. I Wasteland his Bayou to keep him off Cabal Therapy and proceed to get Mother of Runes, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and two Mirran Crusader into play which I attack with each combat to avoid popping his pair of Veteran Explorer. After I get him to eleven I attack with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben to let him crack a dude for lands. I keep one alive to not ramp him too much while I play Recruiter of the Guard into Stoneforge Mystic and cast the Umezawa's Jitte that I got with Stoneforge Mystic. I can kill him next turn and while he is able to play his fifth land he scoops and reveals the Massacre Wurm in his hand... Note to self: Don't take pity and let your BUG Nic Fit opponent crack an Veteran Explorer...
4-2
Enough for 11th out of 36 and between the tix my Fiance and I earn we pick up a Snapcaster Mage and 5 packs of Kaladesh as well as a lot of fun for the day. (Friend on Lands used Ghost Quarter to leave his Burn opponent with 0 Lands in play and in library)
General Notes:
1. Need to play a bit tighter and think a bit more on complicated lines.
2. Mangara is still awesome, keeping two in the 75.
3. Need to forget the Prelate silly stuff in the mirror. Prelate as a 1 of just really doesn't often come up. Don't get cute, get better.
4. Cataclysm was decent, but I might be moving on soon.
5. 2 Cavern didn't really come up, but one of my local metas is full of Miracles, the other is full of Mid-Range True-Name Nemesis decks. I will likely keep the 2 Cavern to ensure resolving key creatures. (Stoneforge Mystic, both Thalia, Recruiter of the Guard, Phyrexian Revoker)
6. Really happy with the main deck overall. I may try a Sword of Feast and Famine in the board for a bit.
@colo
I'm going to try the Stonecloaker. This weekend there were several times I was recruiting and found myself thumbing an Avenger to the front. Being able to recruit a flying beater like this would have been very clutch in several situations.
- - - -
@Medea & @SwordsToTimeshares
I've been off the Cavern plan for a while and I haven't missed it. I value being able to cast Flickerwisps and Avengers more consistently in all games than I do being able to stick a dude in the blue matchups. I feel like we're so favored against blue decks that Cavern is often a win more card.
- - - -
Hey all! Just got back from SCGMKE. I scrubbed out of Modern on Saturday in time to make the 4PM Legacy event with a couple dozen people. I also played in the Legacy Classic of course. I ran medium, going 2-2 on Saturday and very turbulent (win-loss-win-loss-win-loss-drop) 3-3-drop on Sunday. No real highlights from Saturday other than I played against fun match against well-known player who I really respect. That was awesome. I was particularly happy with my sideboard this weekend:
4x Flickerwisp
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Mother of Runes
3x Recruiter of the Guard
3x Serra Avenger
3x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Sanctum Prelate
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
12x Plains
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
3x Karakas
2x Pithing Needle
2x Council's Judgement
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Path to Exile
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Containment Priest
1x Disenchant
1x Sword of War and Peace
Some highlights:
- Got blown out by Omniscience... forgot about that one. He cast Show and Tell and I opted for the greedy play of dropping a Recruiter. I had Karakas in play and had him dead next to so I reasoned it was a desperation hail mary banking on me forgetting about it. Nope! He then hardcast Emrakul. I had the Flickerwisp in hand too.
- Prelate overperformed all weekend. I am considering a future where we run 4 main deck. I used to be worried about naming 'the right' number on him, but I am now realizing that the uncertainty is exactly one of his strengths because the opponent doesn't know what you're going to name either.
- I stormed off with D&T! Late game, we're both hellbent, the board is empty, I have a Vial on 3 and a Vial on 2 plus a million (like, 8) lands. I top deck a Recruiter. What's the play?
- - - -
Pop quiz. You're' playing against Infect. It is Game 2. Turn two you drop a SFM, grab Jitte. Turn three you drop a Thalia. Turn 4 you SFM in Jitte, equip Thalia, swing. No blocks. He has a Viridian Corrupter, a Glistener Elf, and 2 Inkmoth. You have 2 counters on the Jitte. What do you do?
@Curby
I beat Lands both times. Historically, I considered Lands a slightly unfavorable matchup, as we usually lose game one. Prelate changes that, and I may adjust that matchup once I've played more games. The matchup felt much better than in the past.
@Bearscape
Gideon just pluses infinitely against Miracles. They have a hard time beating the token stream. Against Shardless, all three modes are relevant, so it's really board-dependent on which one is best.
Besides the 2 Inkmoths, how many other lands? If he swung with all 4 his creatures, is he tapped out? If so, you only have Invigorate to worry about, and if you can live through it, I might just take 4 poison, then kill the Inkmoths at eot with Jitte. I think that's the play I'd make most of the time.