Small followup to my weekly Legacy event and first time playing with recruiters/prelates
Recruiter was NUTS, was exactly what I needed almost every case I drew it in. I closed out G1 against maverick by playing a recruiter to find flickerwisp, blocking, vialing in wisp to hit recruiter, find another wisp, attack in the air, repeat again and again.
Prelate was a FoW magnet all night. Notable games with it included getting it out against miracles and naming 6 (he had already used 3 plows and it was crunch time), immediately eating a plow. Then in game 2 getting it out early naming one and eating a terminus. In these instances just bad luck, and can be better played with more practice
The second time it was relevant was playing against Maverick, he was down to 3 life and facing lethal next turn, I played a prelate naming 1 (he had already played 3 swords to plowshares & 1 decay, meaning the only other removal in his deck is the 1 remaining swords, and 1 abrupt decay) he takes his turn and finds the abrupt decay as the third card down on sylvan. This one was just great luck on his side, 1 shot and finding a ONE of removal spell in the top 3 that wasn't the one I named. Was still a great game though.
Recruiter is definitely 'slow', but I really didn't feel like I needed to be any faster in these games. Despite eating the aforementioned FoW's I liked the two prelates, didn't miss Avenger that much although the only matchup I played where she's relevant was Eldrazi.
No big tournaments around here for a while, I think Card Kingdom/Mox Boarding house are doing one at the start of October I might head to -- hopefully with more solid #'s in the deck.
Prelate was a FoW magnet all night. Notable games with it included getting it out against miracles and naming 6 (he had already used 3 plows and it was crunch time), immediately eating a plow. Then in game 2 getting it out early naming one and eating a terminus. In these instances just bad luck, and can be better played with more practice
I'm sure most people here know about this already, but in case anyone doesn't I just want to point this out: regarding Miracles and which number to name, if you have a vial on 3 you can put in Prelate in response to the Miracle trigger on Terminus. Drawing the card puts the Miracle trigger on the stack, and when that trigger resolves (and not until then) you can choose to cast it. Just make sure you clearly say what you're doing and when, especially in bigger events where announcing it wrong can make you miss your chance.
I'll step in as acting historian for Amoebasinger: Dropping Jötun Grunt was due to two reasons: cards like Wheel of Sun and Moon and Grafdigger's Cage were better able to deal with faster graveyard decks like Reanimator, and adding Batterskull still gave us a bolt-proof beater while only taking one slot instead of the 3ish that Grunt took. (To be fair Batterskull was actually taking the place of a 2-color sword, but having it significantly reduced the need for other 4/4s.)
Some relevant posts in 2012 when Grunt was being questioned:
This will probably be worth considering moving forward.
In all honesty I dislike that it cost 1. I know that sounds ridiculous but against Chalice of the Void, usually set to 1 it is obviously terrible. Against counter-top, again it is just bad. I am not sure why it would be wanted. Slower decks that run enchantments and artifacts that we want to hit aren't bad match ups already. I love how he references that it kills chalice, but makes no mention of the nombo against a chalice at 1, the most common number for one to be set at. Although it looks like he was mostly speaking from a Pauper standpoint near the end.
Well it looks like I'm finally going to have to buy Pontiffs and switch to the black splash now. Between those and the new guy, that covers a large share of the things this deck has trouble with. Granted, it's a bit slow for the matchups where you want him the most, but if you can get him into play he's virtually an auto-win. Doesn't even die to Massacre.
Also, how many more Humans have to fit into the deck before Thalia's Lieutenant is something we want? I don't get the chance to play often enough to do any real testing with it, but I've been eyeing it as a psuedo-answer to Dread of Night and Sulfur Elemental if nothing else. Even in mono-white now, SFM and Flickerwisp seem to be the only non-humans anyone is playing. Even if one or both gets cut down to 3 copies, is that enough to avoid human-specific cards?
You don't have to go crazy. I myself have a 1 Dark Confidant maindeck and 1 Pontiff, 3 Thoughtseize in the sideboard. Pontiff is worth maindecking in the right meta, especially one with lots of DnT, and thus, also perhaps Elves to combat it. And anything with Young Pyromancer, Grim Lavamancer, True-Name Nemesis, etc.
Far as Thalia's Lieutentant, you have to wonder if the +1/+1 counters are better than a state-based P/T enhancement. Really depends on how you want to fight -1/-1 effects. Against "until end of turn" spells, you can Vial in Pontiff for its defensive effect. Against a Dread of Night, as it is faster than a lot of our creatures, you'd be more likely having to respond to it, and a hard answer like Disenchant or Seal of Cleansing is more reassuring than one that works contingent on remaining in play.
It's tough because you want to be able to search up an answer to Dread, but inherently, searching up an answer is slow. You probably don't have until turn 4 to respond to it against ANT, so you need a quicker answer, but there are no amazing ones. It's the only real remaining deck problem now, heh. This is why I opt for the early discard instead; you might just take Dread away before things go to hell, or at the least, it might buy you time to recruit up that other answer you have.
But by the way, Kambal?! Guy is wow. Only thing is, he doesn't stop an opponent from really going off on a storm count, they just have to kill him early. And he's a 3-drop. So it's probably not great for the purposes of Storm. Against Delver well... they'd want to kill him right away, but I suspect without Mother of Runes to protect, it might underwhelm to just cast a potential 1-shot Tendrils for 3 mana. And it does nothing if they are already ahead, as it likely means you are getting pecked by a Delver, so you want an answer to that as soon as possible instead of a lifegain predicated on your opponent giving it to you.
Quote from tristan183 »
Does Prelate on 2 solve the Jund match pretty much?
I've not had any matches against Jund with the new toys, but I imagine that's a good play. If unaccompanied by another creature, naming 2 still does leave you open to Bolt and Liliana, but with another one in play, Lily isn't as hot, and only Bolt will save them. Seems alright considering all the other headaches we can throw on top of that once a stabilized board has taken hold.
The state of play with Serra Avengers is interesting. Some decks have cut them and others have kept them. I wonder if another card will fill that role better?
The state of play with Serra Avengers is interesting. Some decks have cut them and others have kept them. I wonder if another card will fill that role better?
I'm actually looking to Kaladesh for that. So far we have see two Flying/Vigilance/Lifelink cards in white, and I'm hoping that will be common to the set. Aerial Responder is really close to what I want, but not quite there. I'm really interested in a flying/linklink card at 2-3 mana to help compensate for the fact that the deck will be a touch slow, and that it potentially loses some degree of evasion by dropping/trimming Avengers/Crusaders.
On Angel of Invention...
Looking at this card again, I think it is likely unplayable. It won't do anything through Dread of Night, something I didn't realize before.
Looking at this card again, I think it is likely unplayable. It won't do anything through Dread of Night, something I didn't realize before.
To be fair, with all the new toys WotC has released I'm not that worried about Dread of Night that much anymore. THC and Prelate are both X/2s, a nice improvement on how to design actually playable hatebears, unlike jank like Vryn Wingmare. Recruiter is disposable, and basically an find anything that doesn't die to Dread of Night too.
The new 1BW guy even dodges Massacre! Although its utility as a maindeck card depends on whether Eldrazi remains a sizable portion of the metagame, against which he can't do anything. At least we have THC for Elves and Eldrazi and all the more creature-y decks.
This deck is in the best state it has ever been. I never thought the deck would reach a point where we would have trouble fitting the creature slots with all the toys at our disposal instead of trying to fill the gaps with less than ideal options like we used to do.
Medea, I enjoy the thoughts. I have been playing with 2 Recruiter, and I think 3 might be the right number for consistency. The ideal of Metamorph has always appealed to me. I like ideas like Spellskite and Metamorph and have tinkered in the past with E.tutor, but I thin that benefits from Metamorph could be huge. Blinking in another Batterskull is a dream of mine personally! I am worried to go down in Karakas because of the rise in D&T or eventual rise and thereprinting of wastelands and potentially vial and other artifacts. (speculation)
DnT is a deck that is easily customizable for the meta. Having Recruiter gives us the tools to pick and obtain the right hate piece for the situation and is a substantial power increase game 1. I'm noticed having a toolbox of SB creatures allows (for your most likely matchups) you to choose the most powerful hate bear while only taking up 1 SB slot.
I'm playing 10 three mana creatures and have not felt much of a slow down while I have had a substantial mid/late game power increase. Please keep at least 5-6 flying creatures (serra?/Flickerwisp) as the ability to block a flipped delver remains crucial.
I've been playing Recruiter as a 3 of so far and it definitely ramps the reliability of the deck up to another level as well as making Flickerwisp our go to Recruiter target barring the need for an immediate answer. Against Eldrazi, with a vial at 3, I was able to prevent jitte counters on a jitte equipped Matter Reshaper by Recruiting for a Flickerwisp, using Recruiter as a blocker and then Flickering the Recruiter after blockers declared to get another Flickerwisp. If he stumbled a bit with mana due to wasteland/port, I was able to get a Mangara and blow up his lands, prompting a scoop. Versus Jund, I was able to beat my opponent in 2 games in less than 10 minutes due to the Turn 1 Mom/Vial, Turn Two Thalia, Turn 3 Recruiter/Prelate hands.
While Phyrexian Metamorph is extremely flexible, it almost feels like its too cute. It allows us to have our own True Name Nemesis/Griselbrand/Emrakul if the opponent plays them, but they would have first swing. Same with jitte/Sword of X and X. Copying your own equipment feels a bit win more. Using a Recruiter to get a Metamorph to copy a Goyf feels suboptimal as we could just get a Mirran Crusader/Stoneforge into Batterskull.
@Wynk
I'm not sure if it is brilliant or idiotic, but I'm certainly going to try it. It serves as Recruiter 4, Flickerwisp 5, and Prelate 3 in my lists, which alone is probably interesting enough to test. Coupled with potentially getting opposing cards, and it might be worth it.
I'm all for being creative and breaking new ground! I'm just worried that having it as Recruiter 4, Flickerwisp 5 and Prelate 3 requires us to have board presence to make use of it optimally.
So I top 8d a local 50 person legacy event, was playing a 3 recruiter, 2 prelate, 2 thc list. Played with 2 ghost quarters as I didn't have 4 ports, and I didn't end up missing the 3rd or 4th port. Started 0-1 and won out to 5-1 and lost in top 8.
My rounds went
0-2 vs Burn
2-0 vs Slivers
2-0 vs wbug Aluren
2-0 vs Dark and Taxes
2-1 vs Dredge
2-0 vs Miracles
1-2 vs Grixis Delver
Prelate was good every time I had her, cept when she instantly died for a variety of things, named one against grixis delver and he had his one of dismember. Ended up in 6th which I used to pick a plateau in order to try Dwarves when kaladesh drops
That is getting towards the guy we need, but still not quite there yet for me. The ideal creature needs (some of):
good with a sword
evasion (flying?)
lifelink (to help recover from early hits)
tutorable (is a bonus)
human (good synergy with Caverns)
Perhaps Kaladesh could give us a flying vehicle that we could power with our disruptive ground creatures.
Keep in mind that most IQ level decks are tailored to beat small, local metagames.
Recruiter was NUTS, was exactly what I needed almost every case I drew it in. I closed out G1 against maverick by playing a recruiter to find flickerwisp, blocking, vialing in wisp to hit recruiter, find another wisp, attack in the air, repeat again and again.
Prelate was a FoW magnet all night. Notable games with it included getting it out against miracles and naming 6 (he had already used 3 plows and it was crunch time), immediately eating a plow. Then in game 2 getting it out early naming one and eating a terminus. In these instances just bad luck, and can be better played with more practice
The second time it was relevant was playing against Maverick, he was down to 3 life and facing lethal next turn, I played a prelate naming 1 (he had already played 3 swords to plowshares & 1 decay, meaning the only other removal in his deck is the 1 remaining swords, and 1 abrupt decay) he takes his turn and finds the abrupt decay as the third card down on sylvan. This one was just great luck on his side, 1 shot and finding a ONE of removal spell in the top 3 that wasn't the one I named. Was still a great game though.
Recruiter is definitely 'slow', but I really didn't feel like I needed to be any faster in these games. Despite eating the aforementioned FoW's I liked the two prelates, didn't miss Avenger that much although the only matchup I played where she's relevant was Eldrazi.
No big tournaments around here for a while, I think Card Kingdom/Mox Boarding house are doing one at the start of October I might head to -- hopefully with more solid #'s in the deck.
I'm sure most people here know about this already, but in case anyone doesn't I just want to point this out: regarding Miracles and which number to name, if you have a vial on 3 you can put in Prelate in response to the Miracle trigger on Terminus. Drawing the card puts the Miracle trigger on the stack, and when that trigger resolves (and not until then) you can choose to cast it. Just make sure you clearly say what you're doing and when, especially in bigger events where announcing it wrong can make you miss your chance.
Some relevant posts in 2012 when Grunt was being questioned:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6775-DTB-Death-and-Taxes&p=664757&highlight=grunt#post664757
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6775-DTB-Death-and-Taxes&p=663813&highlight=#post663813
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
This will probably be worth considering moving forward.
In all honesty I dislike that it cost 1. I know that sounds ridiculous but against Chalice of the Void, usually set to 1 it is obviously terrible. Against counter-top, again it is just bad. I am not sure why it would be wanted. Slower decks that run enchantments and artifacts that we want to hit aren't bad match ups already. I love how he references that it kills chalice, but makes no mention of the nombo against a chalice at 1, the most common number for one to be set at. Although it looks like he was mostly speaking from a Pauper standpoint near the end.
Far as Thalia's Lieutentant, you have to wonder if the +1/+1 counters are better than a state-based P/T enhancement. Really depends on how you want to fight -1/-1 effects. Against "until end of turn" spells, you can Vial in Pontiff for its defensive effect. Against a Dread of Night, as it is faster than a lot of our creatures, you'd be more likely having to respond to it, and a hard answer like Disenchant or Seal of Cleansing is more reassuring than one that works contingent on remaining in play.
It's tough because you want to be able to search up an answer to Dread, but inherently, searching up an answer is slow. You probably don't have until turn 4 to respond to it against ANT, so you need a quicker answer, but there are no amazing ones. It's the only real remaining deck problem now, heh. This is why I opt for the early discard instead; you might just take Dread away before things go to hell, or at the least, it might buy you time to recruit up that other answer you have.
But by the way, Kambal?! Guy is wow. Only thing is, he doesn't stop an opponent from really going off on a storm count, they just have to kill him early. And he's a 3-drop. So it's probably not great for the purposes of Storm. Against Delver well... they'd want to kill him right away, but I suspect without Mother of Runes to protect, it might underwhelm to just cast a potential 1-shot Tendrils for 3 mana. And it does nothing if they are already ahead, as it likely means you are getting pecked by a Delver, so you want an answer to that as soon as possible instead of a lifegain predicated on your opponent giving it to you.
I've not had any matches against Jund with the new toys, but I imagine that's a good play. If unaccompanied by another creature, naming 2 still does leave you open to Bolt and Liliana, but with another one in play, Lily isn't as hot, and only Bolt will save them. Seems alright considering all the other headaches we can throw on top of that once a stabilized board has taken hold.
I'm actually looking to Kaladesh for that. So far we have see two Flying/Vigilance/Lifelink cards in white, and I'm hoping that will be common to the set. Aerial Responder is really close to what I want, but not quite there. I'm really interested in a flying/linklink card at 2-3 mana to help compensate for the fact that the deck will be a touch slow, and that it potentially loses some degree of evasion by dropping/trimming Avengers/Crusaders.
On Angel of Invention...
Looking at this card again, I think it is likely unplayable. It won't do anything through Dread of Night, something I didn't realize before.
Not just chalice, but Prelate is often set at 1 as well. At least it hits all the relevant targets.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Another list with new tech and Serra Avenger!
3rd Place - Aubert Arnaud - DEATH&TAXES - BoM Paris Legacy
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Mishra's Factory
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
10 Plains
1 Banisher Priest
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Serra Avenger
3 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Æther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 1 Sword of War and Peace
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
To be fair, with all the new toys WotC has released I'm not that worried about Dread of Night that much anymore. THC and Prelate are both X/2s, a nice improvement on how to design actually playable hatebears, unlike jank like Vryn Wingmare. Recruiter is disposable, and basically an find anything that doesn't die to Dread of Night too.
The new 1BW guy even dodges Massacre! Although its utility as a maindeck card depends on whether Eldrazi remains a sizable portion of the metagame, against which he can't do anything. At least we have THC for Elves and Eldrazi and all the more creature-y decks.
This deck is in the best state it has ever been. I never thought the deck would reach a point where we would have trouble fitting the creature slots with all the toys at our disposal instead of trying to fill the gaps with less than ideal options like we used to do.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/masterpiece-series-2016-09-12
third bullet point.
I'm playing 10 three mana creatures and have not felt much of a slow down while I have had a substantial mid/late game power increase. Please keep at least 5-6 flying creatures (serra?/Flickerwisp) as the ability to block a flipped delver remains crucial.
I've been playing Recruiter as a 3 of so far and it definitely ramps the reliability of the deck up to another level as well as making Flickerwisp our go to Recruiter target barring the need for an immediate answer. Against Eldrazi, with a vial at 3, I was able to prevent jitte counters on a jitte equipped Matter Reshaper by Recruiting for a Flickerwisp, using Recruiter as a blocker and then Flickering the Recruiter after blockers declared to get another Flickerwisp. If he stumbled a bit with mana due to wasteland/port, I was able to get a Mangara and blow up his lands, prompting a scoop. Versus Jund, I was able to beat my opponent in 2 games in less than 10 minutes due to the Turn 1 Mom/Vial, Turn Two Thalia, Turn 3 Recruiter/Prelate hands.
While Phyrexian Metamorph is extremely flexible, it almost feels like its too cute. It allows us to have our own True Name Nemesis/Griselbrand/Emrakul if the opponent plays them, but they would have first swing. Same with jitte/Sword of X and X. Copying your own equipment feels a bit win more. Using a Recruiter to get a Metamorph to copy a Goyf feels suboptimal as we could just get a Mirran Crusader/Stoneforge into Batterskull.
I'm not sure if it is brilliant or idiotic, but I'm certainly going to try it. It serves as Recruiter 4, Flickerwisp 5, and Prelate 3 in my lists, which alone is probably interesting enough to test. Coupled with potentially getting opposing cards, and it might be worth it.
9 Plains
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Eiganjo Castle
Creatures:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
3 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
3 Rest in Peace
2 Path to Exile
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Leonin Relic Warder
My rounds went
0-2 vs Burn
2-0 vs Slivers
2-0 vs wbug Aluren
2-0 vs Dark and Taxes
2-1 vs Dredge
2-0 vs Miracles
1-2 vs Grixis Delver
Prelate was good every time I had her, cept when she instantly died for a variety of things, named one against grixis delver and he had his one of dismember. Ended up in 6th which I used to pick a plateau in order to try Dwarves when kaladesh drops
Good stuff, and welcome to the forums!
This is gonna sound a bit out there but ya considered a 1-of Daring Skyjek? Kind of a 5th evasive creature if you're setting up an alpha strike.
(tutorable, castable off cavern, benefits from any human tribal stuff such as a 1-of lieutenant).
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
1 toughness is the killer here.
WGURBLands!WGURB
WGUInfectWGU
Legacy Lands Primer
Top 8 SCG Oakland 2014
Helpdesk
My Cube on CubeTutor
good with a sword
evasion (flying?)
lifelink (to help recover from early hits)
tutorable (is a bonus)
human (good synergy with Caverns)
Perhaps Kaladesh could give us a flying vehicle that we could power with our disruptive ground creatures.
Also, did you just call me a math nerd?
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Mishra's Factory is always in my maybe pile. I'm not going to say no to it, but I like Cavern a bit better in my flex slots at the moment.
Also, I mean math nerd in the most endearing way possible. That spreadsheet is total gas, and I refer people to it somewhat regularly.
@llculto
Congrats on the finish. It seems you are in the same spot I am of having mixed feelings about Serra Avenger in the 75.