What decks is Fiendslayer Paladin good against other than Burn and Grixis? Please advise
I believe that red removal is the most common in legacy. But to answer your question you have; Jund, Lands (punishing fire), BUG decks, OK vs jeskai decks among others.
Off-topic: For those of you posting kind words about my content (here, on Reddit, on The Source), thank you. School starts tomorrow, so I've spent the last few days prepping my classrooms and lessons, so I haven't had a chance to reply or to test much. There's more content coming about these new cards and the new shell of the deck once I have more games under my belt.
On-topic: I think the "crazier" you get with redesigning the deck, the further you are going to be from success. I'm not discouraging you from experimenting, by any means, but if you try something and the results aren't great, move on and try a new build. D&T is currently a tier one deck; that means the shell is good and working. Slot in the new cards into that existing shell and you'll likely succeed. Many of the variants I'm seeing are starting to look more and more like Stax, and there is a danger associated with going down that road. You don't want your top-decks to be weak, and the initial power out of the gate probably isn't worth that trade-off. Adding in some Ancient Tombs in particular really decreases (or even eliminates completely) your ability to cast white cards on curve. I think starting with some of the red splash lists for guidance and number balancing will be very helpful.
Now, if you start playing 50 or 100 games with a build and it still feels solid, then you might be on to something. Currently, there are many diverging thoughts on how to build the deck, and in all honesty, the deck could diverge in two or three directions pretty easily. There is a Classic in Richmond next weekend that I'll try to get to, and I'll write up something substantial after that on the various builds I've been trying.
I'm so glad to hear your opinion on this, Medea. I was similarly hesitant about all of the deck ideas I've read in this thread, but I've been silent because I want people to be able to think through new ideas. But just maybe not here (i.e. in its own thread)? Or rather, I'm not sure how some of these deck ideas directly relate to D&T and instead are just using some of the same cards. I don't think Mox Diamond et al are where we want to be, at least for this deck archetype.
As for my own idea, I cut Serra Avengers altogether because they can't be searched up with Recruiter, and only running 1-2 seemed wrong. You'd have to hope you draw them and that you can either cast them (WW) or have vial on 2 (instead of 3). Basically you want one in your opener along with a vial, but it seemed a bit too iffy. I know they're great swords holders for finishing, but without a way to find them, we're kind of at the mercy of the deck in that respect. The sideboard was kind of toolboxy with the Recruiter in mind, but you can't really cut Rest in Peace or Council's Judgment.
I just want to point out, being that I'm clearly vocal on trying new things here, that I've always kept any build "Death and Taxes". There's always been 23-27 creatures, 4 Vial/4 Plowshares, and 4 Port/4 Wasteland in every experimental build I've done. This includes a SCG Top 8 with mono-white back in 2012, a GPT win with a Wg-build in 2015, and several local top 8 finishes in the SoCal area with my Wb-build in the past year. Always, always -- the deck has been the aforementioned DnT shell.
Say I have 26 creatures in my build. Just because I take out 2 of them and remove a land, then add 3 Lotus Petals doesn't mean the deck is a mutation, not "DnT", or that it requires its own thread.
We've seen people go to 2 equipment, seen people go to 22 or 24 land, seen people already run Chrome Mox main (and top 8 with it), seen people drop Vial, drop Mystic... they're all still DnT and nothing there is too drastic from the main stock, just tuned a bit differently.
@Medea, this may just be semantics, but I'm not sure DnT is "already" Tier 1. Yes, it's a deck that Top 8s often, but other "Tier 1" decks don't really have any "fold-to" matchups like DnT does. Admittedly, that section of decks is just unfair combo stuff like Belcher, Tin-Fins, Oops All Spells and Elves - and any other match is fightable - but I think to be true "Tier 1", a deck has to demonstrate reliable numbers against everything, or at worst 40/60. I don't think DnT is 40/60 against Elves overall; it's probably much worse. Additionally, Elves is probably not Tier 1 for the tough time it has with stuff like Miracles, Reanimator, Show and Tell, etc., though they are winnable matches for DnT. This is the lovely "rock, paper, scissors" that is Legacy.
That said, I think DnT can become a TRUE Tier 1 with these new toys, and it's up to everyone to figure out the best way to do so. Until all matchups are at worst 40/60, but more likely 45/55, a deck is not "true" Tier 1 in my opinion.
@SwordsToTimeshares Even Miracles woudn't be Tier 1 if you a Tier 1 deck has to have about even Matchups against all decks. Miracles is pretty bad against 12Post, pretty bad against lands and some infect players claim that their matchup is really good as well.
I think that currently D&T belongs to the Top 4 Decks in Legacy (Miracles,Storm,Lands,D&T) and has reasonable Matchups (depending on your build) against all of them.
See though that my delineation was for matchups that a deck "folds" to. Miracles has "unfavorable" 12-Post, an "unfavorable" Goblins match, and sure, if say Lands bests them (not so sure it isn't just a crapshoot), fine too. But nothing there is better than 60/40 against Miracles. Miracles has no "impossible" matchups.
Of course, we've all beat an Elves player from time to time, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking traditional non-ramp, mono-white DnT is somehow anything but abysmal against that deck. Ditto for Belcher, Tin-Fins, Oops All, Burning Reanimator... all that turn 1 stuff we have no interaction against. And of course, Elves is a different breed of deck archtype, and just happens to be the one that this archetype can't interact meaningfully with until it's often too late.
Even Lands is a faster deck against combo than DnT is because of Crop Rotation and acceleration via Mox Diamond. If you don't run soft permission, discard, or ramp, DnT has no turn 1 interaction, which sucks doubly if you lost the die roll, or just happen to be seeded lower than your opponent in Top 8. Now granted, once turn 2 hits, our options of Thalia/Revoker/Canonist/Priest are better than their Sphere of Resistance, but there's no "fold-to" matchup, especially not Elves.
Now take a look at something like Delver. It's basically just "gots game" against everything. Is it favorable against everything? No. Will it straight up "fold" to anything? No. THAT is Tier 1.
As well, let's look at ANT. That's Tier 1, no doubt. Miracles is a tough match, but doable, and their worst matchup - Reanimator - is still not a "fold-to".
This isn't also to say that DnT can't put up Tier 1 numbers, and clearly, it will continue to be popular with the new toys we get. Also, the decks that make DnT not truly Tier 1 are a low percentage of the meta, so there is that. It's my mission though to make it so that each matchup is "winnable"; not within reason of possibility to win (we all know any deck can beat any deck should someone get unlucky/lucky enough), but the likelihood to produce a favorable outcome isn't worse than an average of 2 out of 5.
If someone has a secret to help win 2 out of 5 Elves and Belcher matches consistently, I'm at your Beck // Call.
Edit: Point of Clarification, just to try to poke a hole in my own argument...
Say every Tier 1 deck does have at least one 30/70 matchup. That's still just one matchup. No deck that is as good as DnT is has a 30/70 or worse against:
-Elves
-Belcher
-Tin-Fins
-Oops All Spells
-Mono-R Sneak
that many.
Not to mention, these decks below can act like a 30/70 deck given the right hand, or if you kept a perfectly serviceable hand in a blind game 1 that services only "fair" decks, like Mom, Mystic, Mirran Crusader, Vial, Plowshares, Plains x2:
ANT
TES
SneakShowOmni/OmniTell
All those guys can put an end to you before you draw a card, with the exception of Elves, which is just far more resilient after turn 2 than any of the others. The bottom 3 won't always draw the nuts, so they're still in the "acceptable" range no matter what. The top 5 there though... yeeeesh. None of the cool tools now available within the confines of "white-weenie" are yet fast enough on their own to take that stuff on.
Deck to beat, tier one, a potato... I don't care what you call it, it's clearly one of the best decks in the format despite its weaknesses.
Anyway... Why do I keep seeing Kataki pop up in lists? I'm not sure that's where we want to be, even if it is tutorable. I'm not saying that I'm thrilled with Leonin Relic-Warder or anything, but it is probably better than Kataki due to flexability, not being symmetrical, and hitting enchantments. Unless you all are playing in a very specialized metagame, I don't think Kataki has a very high impact currently.
If you want to interact on the stack to combat Belcher and its ilk, there's Mindbreak Trap, and I can't see us get a better tool that this in the forseeable future.
You guys worry to much about belcher, Tin fins and glass cannon super fast decks. Those decks rarely go off T1 and as consistent as legacy combo decks are sometimes they lose to themselves. If they go off T1 and win so be it. You can play delver and never have the FoW the few times this happens, is all variance.
I believe the most powerful play in legacy is T1 Deathrite shaman. Fair decks is where I see I get most my losses.
What do you recommend (in the current, pre-Recruiter/Sanctum Prelate shell) for sideboarding for an enchantment/stax type deck? Someone at the local store is playing a UWx enchantments deck and it's the only one I lost to last week -- D&T doesn't really mainboard or sideboard much for it in general, maybe a Leonin Relic-Warder? I was thinking a pair of Disenchants, but perhaps there's a better solution.
Leonin-relic warden can be good to take specific enchantments. Council's judgement is fine. Cataclysm can wipe their board mostly if you get it at a point before they can kill you. Having vial with flickerwisp at the ready to remove the land they keep with enchantments on it is a good call. Spirit of the labyrinth is good to shut down their draw engine as well.
I played in the SCG classic this past weekend to a 23rd of 266 finish. I haven't gotten a chance to test as much as I would like with the new Thalia yet, and decided to take Medea's advice and play a 3/2 Thalia/Serra split as opposed to the 2/3 split I had been running.
Round 1 : 2-0 vs White Eldrazi on the play
Game I saw an early Displacer which I named with Revoker. He soon followed up with a Jitte at which point my job became to stop that thing from connecting which I managed to for the rest of this game with most of the tricks at our disposal - Wasteland, Port, Thalia + Karakas. Eventually I got a Crusader with a Batterskull equipped. It was eventually chumped by two Thought-Knots, but I still had two Thalias held back to fend off the Jitte and pick up the Batterkskull. I ended the game at 49 life. In game two, he got in some quick damage with Reshaper and Mimic, but I was able to stabilize with 2x Serra Avenger and mana disruption. He got me down to two before my air force got him.
Round 2 : 0-2 vs Mono-Red Sneak on the play
I led with Port -> Vial. He plays Crystal Vein. I play another Port and tap him down on his next turn. He plays City of Traitors. My mind jumped to Eldrazi, and didn't consider the possibility of Sneak. So, I played a plains and a second Vial and opted to tap down his City. On his turn, he Seething Songed into Through the Breach for Worldspine Wurm. My STP looked silly in my hand. In game two he killed me on turn one with Griselbrand and Emrakul coming down off of Sneak Attack. Ouch.
Round 3 : 2-0 vs U/W Stoneblade on the draw
I don't remember a lot of details from this match, but do recall Serra Avenger doing a lot of work over a TNN. Post-board, he cast Supreme Verdict to kill a couple of my guys to keep SoFaI offline. I played and equipped Crusader the next turn. He didn't live long enough to attack however Gideon's tokens did, and Revoker shutdown Jitte.
Round 4 : 2-0 vs Burn on the play
Game one I was able to get Batterskull into play and ride it. Game two, I won on a double mulligan after having to Wasteland myself, and STP my Serra Avenger to stay alive. I was able to stabilize at the end with a Jitte.
Round 5 : 1-2 vs Grixis Delver on the play
My opponent was playing the 4 Angler version that has been gaining some popularity recently. Game one, my deck more or less did what it is supposed to - killed Delver, and put pressure on with equipment. Game I got a nice early advantage after my second RIP landed which put him on the Deathrite beatdown plan which was actually pretty effective. I didn't draw many threats, and was able to stick none of them. Deathrite pinged me for five straight combats...then the Baleful Strix/Deathrite combo hit me for four straight turns before he landed a Snapcaster (I think). A bit frustrating to mana flood as I did. His deck pretty much did its thing in the third game - I think I mulled into a decent hand that had a STP for Delver, but no answer for an early Angler.
Round 6 : 2-0 vs Sneak/Omni
I got paired up against one of my buddies so we both know what to expect here. I kept a one land Karakas/Vial hand and got there game one having only drawn that one land. Vial allowed me to play Mom -> Serra -> THC, and he was not able to find the Omniscience win. Game two I won with a turn to spare - final board state had Canonist, Thalia, Priest, and Omniscience in play. Canonist was the MVP.
Round 7 : 2-1 vs Food Chain on the play
In game one, I Revoked his Deathrite which I later reset to Food Chain with Flickerwisp after having seen Manipulate Fate. Revoker stuck around, and Mom was able to force Serra or Flickerwisp through in the air until I got there. In game two, I mulled to five. He didn't find his combo, but recurring Misthollow Griffin was pretty strong. My opponent fetched greedily in game three, and ran into 3x Wasteland. The final board state had 2x Thalia, Canonist, Port to his completely empty board.
Round 8 : 1-1-1 vs BUG Delver on the play
We played a pretty long game one where I cost myself a victory by playing out a Mirran Crusader prior to a THC for no sound reason. TNN came down, and halted my ground force. Game two was much quicker and relatively uneventful - original Thalia is strong. Game three is another long one where it goes to time as I try to fight through a Dread of Night. Crusader connected in time with a Jitte which was unfortunately Abrupt Decayed before he could get a swing in for lethal. I got down a Batterskull. He drew a dud on the final turn in time and was staring down lethal from Crusader with Batterkull on the following turn. My opponent was unwilling to concede, and so a draw it was.
Round 9 : 2-0 vs DnT on the play
My opponent was running a Squadron Hawk package along with Judge's Familiar. In both games, he kept one land Vial hands. I played a Revoker on Vial game one which got a STP, but was able to fetch up Jitte and get it online shortly thereafter. In game two, we both led with Vial, but I played a Revoker on it again after I saw him miss a land drop. He conceded a few turns later after drawing more non land cards.
Overall, the deck felt very smooth and was happy with it. Life loss off Canopy was never relevant, and I was able to cash it in for a card three times during the event. Serra Avenger felt very strong each time I drew it, and I need to seriously consider the look of this deck after Conspiracy. Avenger seems like a fair option to cut, but the loss of evasion is a little concerning.
I don't think E Tutor is where we want to be with Recruiter now. With 4 Flickerwisp, 2 Council's Judgment and a creature target, probably Leonin Relic-Warder is best, one can usually disrupt Enchantment/Artifact based lock decks long enough to grab a win.
the single biggest reason why i think DnT was never a true Tier 1 deck is its inconsistency. drawing the wrong cards when you dont need them. though with the recruiter its getting much better. cutting a SfM and a Mom to slam in two recruiter to effectively run 3 of your 1-of silver bullets feels right to me. the only problem with this is that getting your silver bulet turn 4 is often too late against the very fast decks, thats why i feel the need to accelerate into recruiter, not always necessary but often enough that it makes sense to do so.
this leeds to the next big problem DnT still has despite all the new cards:
a solid and disruptive turn 1 play against all the unfair decks you are just going to lose to otherwise. imo, this is still a big thing for the deck which keeps it borderline tier 1, more like 1.5 to me or even 2.
I know you mentioned we're already on the same page here, but I just want to reiterate how right you are saying this. This is EXACTLY what my pet peeve has always been with DnT, albeit it's still my favorite deck aside from False Cure (which is just insanely silly and fun, but more a guilty pleasure).
I think the assessment that DnT is "fine where it is" because it can be 7% of the metagame is just that, "fine". I think what needs to be discussed more is how DnT is different from the other definite "Tier 1" decks that may be that same 7% or even less of the meta. The problem is this:
DnT has more favorably skewed matchups against the 70% or so of the "fair" meta, but is a crapshot or unfavorable against most combo. Infect is probably slightly favored against mono-white DnT, ANT is a crapshot or only very slightly unfavored against DnT, Reanimator without Archetype of Endurance is unfavorable, but if that card is run I'd say they are straight favored against us. OmniTell is a crapshot or slightly favorable, as is Turbo Depths. And obviously, the worst of the worst I mentioned already: Elves, Belcher, Tin-Fins, etc.
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You guys worry to much about belcher, Tin fins and glass cannon super fast decks. Those decks rarely go off T1 and as consistent as legacy combo decks are sometimes they lose to themselves.
They don't "rarely" go off on turn 1, they mostly go off on turn 1. Yes, sometimes they are their own worst enemy, but any Brainstorm-less deck is like that. DnT is like that from time to time. Even if all the turn 1 decks together are 5% of the meta, that's something you IGNORE COMPLETELY at your own peril. Elves is probably 4-5% around any given time, so now we're going to continue to straight-up ignore one-tenth of all decks when something can now be done about it?
I think if you do this, you are just hoping to avoid a fifth or so of the decks people play, accumulated as builds that make DnT fold or are "favored"-to-"crapshot". I'd like to get data on this, but I'd suspect DnT is more played than the 7% of the "Top 8" meta it represents, which means the deck underperforms. It has to. To top 8 a large tourney, you played only the matchups DnT has an actual shot of winning against, because the "fold-to" decks I mentioned the other day eat it for breakfast.
I'm just saying... it's unadvisable to just put blinders on hope to avoid that many matchups.
EDIT: One more point about "underperformance". Those Turn 1 decks like Belcher, Tin-Fins... They ARE bad. It's likely they underperform because of that. If you add all the Top 8 finishes of those decks together and it's 5% of the meta, it's more likely they compromise ~7% of the SWISS rounds meta. Of course, if an Oops, All Spells guy beats you, it's likely he matches up against a real blue deck in the later rounds and loses, because again, the deck sucks. But it played a nice spoiler effect for the DnT player, who might've gone on to beat that fair blue deck player if he didn't have the "bad luck"* of going against a deck he's completely unprepared for.
*It's not really "bad luck" if again, this is a more sizable amount of the gameday meta than indicated by those that actually win.
This is why I hate that Force of Will is considered a 'keep in check' card in Legacy to stop the degenerate unfair T1 win decks. It means that unless you're playing blue and running 4x Force of Will, most decks just fold to the decks you describe. That limits a lot of the format's possibilities for growth: you have to run FoW. If there aren't enough people playing decks with FoW, then the degenerate decks you mention will do much, much better. That inherently limits the 'tier' status of D&T because if at any point where D&T gets ~15%, say, those decks will have twice as much of a chance at getting to later rounds.
I don't really think any of the solutions that have been brought up do that good of a job at actually letting us stop turn-one-win decks. Chalice on 1? Sure, but that requires us having both Chalice and a Sol land in our hand, just like FoW+blue card, but with the disadvantage of having to be on the play or hoping they can't go off on their T1. I don't think we reasonably have a chance at winning those games, period, and wasting our deck construction to try to beat them seems like a lost cause.
The meta shifts, and like you've said, Sneak and Show has changed. Storm has adapted. We can adapt, too, but I just hope that that adaptation doesn't actively hurt our other matchups.
E tutor is ok vs Stax decks if the Stax player boards out Chalice or wants to set it at 2 first. This is possible, but many Stax players will drop a chalice t1 against D N T on the play to avoid vial, making tutor pretty poor. If they run critter win cons then they definitely look to set Chalice @1 to stop Swords. I am a Stax-Humility player (and also run Parfait and have an Enchantress deck too, neither of which run Chalice of course, but both are enchantment control decks). My Stax list is the 4 Humility type, D N T is one of the better matches for it. The problem with Serenity is that white Stax lists run 2/3 O rings, and they have time to get it off. Stacks decks tend to reduce the board to a few permanents anyway, especially if they run Geddon and let the Stack get to work. Serenity might not do so much if the stack has done its job.
If you are talking about an Enchantress type list then you have the issue that they run game winning combos like Helm RIP main and your Serenity may be too slow when you side it in- that extra turn may bite you. Alternatively they sometimes also run Replenish from the board (and board out the combo) as it is good against Miracles.
Honestly from a Stax POV the big worry is Thalia 1 and 2. If you could find a good way to accelerate into that and back it up with a couple of regular disenchant effects then you would be well on the way to winning v Stax.
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This is why I hate that Force of Will is considered a 'keep in check' card in Legacy to stop the degenerate unfair T1 win decks. It means that unless you're playing blue and running 4x Force of Will, most decks just fold to the decks you describe. That limits a lot of the format's possibilities for growth: you have to run FoW. If there aren't enough people playing decks with FoW, then the degenerate decks you mention will do much, much better. That inherently limits the 'tier' status of D&T because if at any point where D&T gets ~15%, say, those decks will have twice as much of a chance at getting to later rounds.
I don't really think any of the solutions that have been brought up do that good of a job at actually letting us stop turn-one-win decks. Chalice on 1? Sure, but that requires us having both Chalice and a Sol land in our hand, just like FoW+blue card, but with the disadvantage of having to be on the play or hoping they can't go off on their T1. I don't think we reasonably have a chance at winning those games, period, and wasting our deck construction to try to beat them seems like a lost cause.
The meta shifts, and like you've said, Sneak and Show has changed. Storm has adapted. We can adapt, too, but I just hope that that adaptation doesn't actively hurt our other matchups.
Well, I think the goal to really aim for is to have better turn 1 plays. Non-blue decks that run a bit of discard are probably "favored" against all those decks just by winning the die roll.
Even Force of Will players will only have that Force of Will in their hand to stop a "Turn 0" win 40% of the time, so really as it applies to Death and Taxes, I'm only concerned with at least making the matchups feasible if you are on the play. As far as Elves, I think the same acceleration that would be great against the turn 1 decks would apply to Elves when we're talking about earlier castings of cards like THC, Containment Priest, and Ethersworn Canonist.
After some in house testing. This is going to be my deck-list for REL competition as of right now. I have done some non-traditional cuts to fit the recruiter package, along with adding some non typical DNT cards. Im no PRO-player or hardcore grinder (Got a life). But I have some experience years playing this in Modern and Legacy. Short summary of my proposed changes.
-1 Thalia, heretic cathar: I have never tutor for this with a recruiter. She does very little in the mid late game. I think she might lose her job altogether one of these days.
-1 Stoneforge: Since we can tutor for it, I think we can afford to cut 1 on G1.
-1 Sword of this/that: Maybe is just me, but most times Im fetching my first equipment is either jitte or batterskull. The sword is more of a secondary or last option. I decided to put it on the board. To compensate I have raise the "Death" level of the deck by adding a strong suit first strikers to go along with jitte to push thru goyfs/baleful strix or what not.
+1 Stonecloaker: I play this MB in my modern DnT and he is very good. He is here in lieu of the 4th flicker wisp and he adds a lot of versatility. GY hate, save a dude, re-buy a creature without targeting is huge and has evasion. In fair games where we doing the "flicker-hawk" plan. I be getting this instead of the 1st flickerwisp. Play it with a recruiter, splicer, stoneforge or wisp on board and make ur opponent blink on his end step with mom/canonist protection.
+1 Blade splicer: Awesome flicker target for fair games, 2 bodies for 4 PWR, 3/3 First strike colorless is awesome in the mirror among other hate.
Silly-ish question... when is CN2 legal? I'm going to Indy this weekend and trying to figure out if I need to get $200 worth of cards to play in side events
Silly-ish question... when is CN2 legal? I'm going to Indy this weekend and trying to figure out if I need to get $200 worth of cards to play in side events
It's legal today.
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I believe that red removal is the most common in legacy. But to answer your question you have; Jund, Lands (punishing fire), BUG decks, OK vs jeskai decks among others.
On-topic: I think the "crazier" you get with redesigning the deck, the further you are going to be from success. I'm not discouraging you from experimenting, by any means, but if you try something and the results aren't great, move on and try a new build. D&T is currently a tier one deck; that means the shell is good and working. Slot in the new cards into that existing shell and you'll likely succeed. Many of the variants I'm seeing are starting to look more and more like Stax, and there is a danger associated with going down that road. You don't want your top-decks to be weak, and the initial power out of the gate probably isn't worth that trade-off. Adding in some Ancient Tombs in particular really decreases (or even eliminates completely) your ability to cast white cards on curve. I think starting with some of the red splash lists for guidance and number balancing will be very helpful.
Now, if you start playing 50 or 100 games with a build and it still feels solid, then you might be on to something. Currently, there are many diverging thoughts on how to build the deck, and in all honesty, the deck could diverge in two or three directions pretty easily. There is a Classic in Richmond next weekend that I'll try to get to, and I'll write up something substantial after that on the various builds I've been trying.
As for my own idea, I cut Serra Avengers altogether because they can't be searched up with Recruiter, and only running 1-2 seemed wrong. You'd have to hope you draw them and that you can either cast them (WW) or have vial on 2 (instead of 3). Basically you want one in your opener along with a vial, but it seemed a bit too iffy. I know they're great swords holders for finishing, but without a way to find them, we're kind of at the mercy of the deck in that respect. The sideboard was kind of toolboxy with the Recruiter in mind, but you can't really cut Rest in Peace or Council's Judgment.
Edit: Oops, wrong list!
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Creature (26)
1 Banisher Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Flickerwisp
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Instant (4)
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Fiendslayer Paladin
1 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Manriki-Gusari
2 Path to Exile
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Rest in Peace
1 Sanctum Prelate
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
BG Collected Company Elves
Legacy
W Death and Taxes
EDH
GW Sigarda, Host of Herons
GW Saffi Eriksdotter
Say I have 26 creatures in my build. Just because I take out 2 of them and remove a land, then add 3 Lotus Petals doesn't mean the deck is a mutation, not "DnT", or that it requires its own thread.
We've seen people go to 2 equipment, seen people go to 22 or 24 land, seen people already run Chrome Mox main (and top 8 with it), seen people drop Vial, drop Mystic... they're all still DnT and nothing there is too drastic from the main stock, just tuned a bit differently.
@Medea, this may just be semantics, but I'm not sure DnT is "already" Tier 1. Yes, it's a deck that Top 8s often, but other "Tier 1" decks don't really have any "fold-to" matchups like DnT does. Admittedly, that section of decks is just unfair combo stuff like Belcher, Tin-Fins, Oops All Spells and Elves - and any other match is fightable - but I think to be true "Tier 1", a deck has to demonstrate reliable numbers against everything, or at worst 40/60. I don't think DnT is 40/60 against Elves overall; it's probably much worse. Additionally, Elves is probably not Tier 1 for the tough time it has with stuff like Miracles, Reanimator, Show and Tell, etc., though they are winnable matches for DnT. This is the lovely "rock, paper, scissors" that is Legacy.
That said, I think DnT can become a TRUE Tier 1 with these new toys, and it's up to everyone to figure out the best way to do so. Until all matchups are at worst 40/60, but more likely 45/55, a deck is not "true" Tier 1 in my opinion.
WorkshopsLegacy:
Death and Taxes
EDH:
Arcum DagssonMake Paradox Engine Great Again!Urza, Lord High Artificer
Of course, we've all beat an Elves player from time to time, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking traditional non-ramp, mono-white DnT is somehow anything but abysmal against that deck. Ditto for Belcher, Tin-Fins, Oops All, Burning Reanimator... all that turn 1 stuff we have no interaction against. And of course, Elves is a different breed of deck archtype, and just happens to be the one that this archetype can't interact meaningfully with until it's often too late.
Even Lands is a faster deck against combo than DnT is because of Crop Rotation and acceleration via Mox Diamond. If you don't run soft permission, discard, or ramp, DnT has no turn 1 interaction, which sucks doubly if you lost the die roll, or just happen to be seeded lower than your opponent in Top 8. Now granted, once turn 2 hits, our options of Thalia/Revoker/Canonist/Priest are better than their Sphere of Resistance, but there's no "fold-to" matchup, especially not Elves.
Now take a look at something like Delver. It's basically just "gots game" against everything. Is it favorable against everything? No. Will it straight up "fold" to anything? No. THAT is Tier 1.
As well, let's look at ANT. That's Tier 1, no doubt. Miracles is a tough match, but doable, and their worst matchup - Reanimator - is still not a "fold-to".
This isn't also to say that DnT can't put up Tier 1 numbers, and clearly, it will continue to be popular with the new toys we get. Also, the decks that make DnT not truly Tier 1 are a low percentage of the meta, so there is that. It's my mission though to make it so that each matchup is "winnable"; not within reason of possibility to win (we all know any deck can beat any deck should someone get unlucky/lucky enough), but the likelihood to produce a favorable outcome isn't worse than an average of 2 out of 5.
If someone has a secret to help win 2 out of 5 Elves and Belcher matches consistently, I'm at your Beck // Call.
Edit: Point of Clarification, just to try to poke a hole in my own argument...
Say every Tier 1 deck does have at least one 30/70 matchup. That's still just one matchup. No deck that is as good as DnT is has a 30/70 or worse against:
-Elves
-Belcher
-Tin-Fins
-Oops All Spells
-Mono-R Sneak
that many.
Not to mention, these decks below can act like a 30/70 deck given the right hand, or if you kept a perfectly serviceable hand in a blind game 1 that services only "fair" decks, like Mom, Mystic, Mirran Crusader, Vial, Plowshares, Plains x2:
ANT
TES
SneakShowOmni/OmniTell
All those guys can put an end to you before you draw a card, with the exception of Elves, which is just far more resilient after turn 2 than any of the others. The bottom 3 won't always draw the nuts, so they're still in the "acceptable" range no matter what. The top 5 there though... yeeeesh. None of the cool tools now available within the confines of "white-weenie" are yet fast enough on their own to take that stuff on.
Anyway... Why do I keep seeing Kataki pop up in lists? I'm not sure that's where we want to be, even if it is tutorable. I'm not saying that I'm thrilled with Leonin Relic-Warder or anything, but it is probably better than Kataki due to flexability, not being symmetrical, and hitting enchantments. Unless you all are playing in a very specialized metagame, I don't think Kataki has a very high impact currently.
If you want to interact on the stack to combat Belcher and its ilk, there's Mindbreak Trap, and I can't see us get a better tool that this in the forseeable future.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-week-in-legacy-recruiter-of-the-guard-and-sanctum-prelate
You guys worry to much about belcher, Tin fins and glass cannon super fast decks. Those decks rarely go off T1 and as consistent as legacy combo decks are sometimes they lose to themselves. If they go off T1 and win so be it. You can play delver and never have the FoW the few times this happens, is all variance.
I believe the most powerful play in legacy is T1 Deathrite shaman. Fair decks is where I see I get most my losses.
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
BG Collected Company Elves
Legacy
W Death and Taxes
EDH
GW Sigarda, Host of Herons
GW Saffi Eriksdotter
11 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
Critters
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
2 Serra Avenger
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Gideon Ally of Zendikar
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Rest in Peace
2 Path to Exile
2 Pithing Needle
Round 1 : 2-0 vs White Eldrazi on the play
Game I saw an early Displacer which I named with Revoker. He soon followed up with a Jitte at which point my job became to stop that thing from connecting which I managed to for the rest of this game with most of the tricks at our disposal - Wasteland, Port, Thalia + Karakas. Eventually I got a Crusader with a Batterskull equipped. It was eventually chumped by two Thought-Knots, but I still had two Thalias held back to fend off the Jitte and pick up the Batterkskull. I ended the game at 49 life. In game two, he got in some quick damage with Reshaper and Mimic, but I was able to stabilize with 2x Serra Avenger and mana disruption. He got me down to two before my air force got him.
Round 2 : 0-2 vs Mono-Red Sneak on the play
I led with Port -> Vial. He plays Crystal Vein. I play another Port and tap him down on his next turn. He plays City of Traitors. My mind jumped to Eldrazi, and didn't consider the possibility of Sneak. So, I played a plains and a second Vial and opted to tap down his City. On his turn, he Seething Songed into Through the Breach for Worldspine Wurm. My STP looked silly in my hand. In game two he killed me on turn one with Griselbrand and Emrakul coming down off of Sneak Attack. Ouch.
Round 3 : 2-0 vs U/W Stoneblade on the draw
I don't remember a lot of details from this match, but do recall Serra Avenger doing a lot of work over a TNN. Post-board, he cast Supreme Verdict to kill a couple of my guys to keep SoFaI offline. I played and equipped Crusader the next turn. He didn't live long enough to attack however Gideon's tokens did, and Revoker shutdown Jitte.
Round 4 : 2-0 vs Burn on the play
Game one I was able to get Batterskull into play and ride it. Game two, I won on a double mulligan after having to Wasteland myself, and STP my Serra Avenger to stay alive. I was able to stabilize at the end with a Jitte.
Round 5 : 1-2 vs Grixis Delver on the play
My opponent was playing the 4 Angler version that has been gaining some popularity recently. Game one, my deck more or less did what it is supposed to - killed Delver, and put pressure on with equipment. Game I got a nice early advantage after my second RIP landed which put him on the Deathrite beatdown plan which was actually pretty effective. I didn't draw many threats, and was able to stick none of them. Deathrite pinged me for five straight combats...then the Baleful Strix/Deathrite combo hit me for four straight turns before he landed a Snapcaster (I think). A bit frustrating to mana flood as I did. His deck pretty much did its thing in the third game - I think I mulled into a decent hand that had a STP for Delver, but no answer for an early Angler.
Round 6 : 2-0 vs Sneak/Omni
I got paired up against one of my buddies so we both know what to expect here. I kept a one land Karakas/Vial hand and got there game one having only drawn that one land. Vial allowed me to play Mom -> Serra -> THC, and he was not able to find the Omniscience win. Game two I won with a turn to spare - final board state had Canonist, Thalia, Priest, and Omniscience in play. Canonist was the MVP.
Round 7 : 2-1 vs Food Chain on the play
In game one, I Revoked his Deathrite which I later reset to Food Chain with Flickerwisp after having seen Manipulate Fate. Revoker stuck around, and Mom was able to force Serra or Flickerwisp through in the air until I got there. In game two, I mulled to five. He didn't find his combo, but recurring Misthollow Griffin was pretty strong. My opponent fetched greedily in game three, and ran into 3x Wasteland. The final board state had 2x Thalia, Canonist, Port to his completely empty board.
Round 8 : 1-1-1 vs BUG Delver on the play
We played a pretty long game one where I cost myself a victory by playing out a Mirran Crusader prior to a THC for no sound reason. TNN came down, and halted my ground force. Game two was much quicker and relatively uneventful - original Thalia is strong. Game three is another long one where it goes to time as I try to fight through a Dread of Night. Crusader connected in time with a Jitte which was unfortunately Abrupt Decayed before he could get a swing in for lethal. I got down a Batterskull. He drew a dud on the final turn in time and was staring down lethal from Crusader with Batterkull on the following turn. My opponent was unwilling to concede, and so a draw it was.
Round 9 : 2-0 vs DnT on the play
My opponent was running a Squadron Hawk package along with Judge's Familiar. In both games, he kept one land Vial hands. I played a Revoker on Vial game one which got a STP, but was able to fetch up Jitte and get it online shortly thereafter. In game two, we both led with Vial, but I played a Revoker on it again after I saw him miss a land drop. He conceded a few turns later after drawing more non land cards.
Overall, the deck felt very smooth and was happy with it. Life loss off Canopy was never relevant, and I was able to cash it in for a card three times during the event. Serra Avenger felt very strong each time I drew it, and I need to seriously consider the look of this deck after Conspiracy. Avenger seems like a fair option to cut, but the loss of evasion is a little concerning.
Serenity. Run a tutor-board (Enlightened Tutor), and make them weep.
I don't think E Tutor is where we want to be with Recruiter now. With 4 Flickerwisp, 2 Council's Judgment and a creature target, probably Leonin Relic-Warder is best, one can usually disrupt Enchantment/Artifact based lock decks long enough to grab a win.
I think the assessment that DnT is "fine where it is" because it can be 7% of the metagame is just that, "fine". I think what needs to be discussed more is how DnT is different from the other definite "Tier 1" decks that may be that same 7% or even less of the meta. The problem is this:
DnT has more favorably skewed matchups against the 70% or so of the "fair" meta, but is a crapshot or unfavorable against most combo. Infect is probably slightly favored against mono-white DnT, ANT is a crapshot or only very slightly unfavored against DnT, Reanimator without Archetype of Endurance is unfavorable, but if that card is run I'd say they are straight favored against us. OmniTell is a crapshot or slightly favorable, as is Turbo Depths. And obviously, the worst of the worst I mentioned already: Elves, Belcher, Tin-Fins, etc.
They don't "rarely" go off on turn 1, they mostly go off on turn 1. Yes, sometimes they are their own worst enemy, but any Brainstorm-less deck is like that. DnT is like that from time to time. Even if all the turn 1 decks together are 5% of the meta, that's something you IGNORE COMPLETELY at your own peril. Elves is probably 4-5% around any given time, so now we're going to continue to straight-up ignore one-tenth of all decks when something can now be done about it?
I think if you do this, you are just hoping to avoid a fifth or so of the decks people play, accumulated as builds that make DnT fold or are "favored"-to-"crapshot". I'd like to get data on this, but I'd suspect DnT is more played than the 7% of the "Top 8" meta it represents, which means the deck underperforms. It has to. To top 8 a large tourney, you played only the matchups DnT has an actual shot of winning against, because the "fold-to" decks I mentioned the other day eat it for breakfast.
I'm just saying... it's unadvisable to just put blinders on hope to avoid that many matchups.
EDIT: One more point about "underperformance". Those Turn 1 decks like Belcher, Tin-Fins... They ARE bad. It's likely they underperform because of that. If you add all the Top 8 finishes of those decks together and it's 5% of the meta, it's more likely they compromise ~7% of the SWISS rounds meta. Of course, if an Oops, All Spells guy beats you, it's likely he matches up against a real blue deck in the later rounds and loses, because again, the deck sucks. But it played a nice spoiler effect for the DnT player, who might've gone on to beat that fair blue deck player if he didn't have the "bad luck"* of going against a deck he's completely unprepared for.
*It's not really "bad luck" if again, this is a more sizable amount of the gameday meta than indicated by those that actually win.
I don't really think any of the solutions that have been brought up do that good of a job at actually letting us stop turn-one-win decks. Chalice on 1? Sure, but that requires us having both Chalice and a Sol land in our hand, just like FoW+blue card, but with the disadvantage of having to be on the play or hoping they can't go off on their T1. I don't think we reasonably have a chance at winning those games, period, and wasting our deck construction to try to beat them seems like a lost cause.
The meta shifts, and like you've said, Sneak and Show has changed. Storm has adapted. We can adapt, too, but I just hope that that adaptation doesn't actively hurt our other matchups.
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
BG Collected Company Elves
Legacy
W Death and Taxes
EDH
GW Sigarda, Host of Herons
GW Saffi Eriksdotter
E tutor is ok vs Stax decks if the Stax player boards out Chalice or wants to set it at 2 first. This is possible, but many Stax players will drop a chalice t1 against D N T on the play to avoid vial, making tutor pretty poor. If they run critter win cons then they definitely look to set Chalice @1 to stop Swords. I am a Stax-Humility player (and also run Parfait and have an Enchantress deck too, neither of which run Chalice of course, but both are enchantment control decks). My Stax list is the 4 Humility type, D N T is one of the better matches for it. The problem with Serenity is that white Stax lists run 2/3 O rings, and they have time to get it off. Stacks decks tend to reduce the board to a few permanents anyway, especially if they run Geddon and let the Stack get to work. Serenity might not do so much if the stack has done its job.
If you are talking about an Enchantress type list then you have the issue that they run game winning combos like Helm RIP main and your Serenity may be too slow when you side it in- that extra turn may bite you. Alternatively they sometimes also run Replenish from the board (and board out the combo) as it is good against Miracles.
Honestly from a Stax POV the big worry is Thalia 1 and 2. If you could find a good way to accelerate into that and back it up with a couple of regular disenchant effects then you would be well on the way to winning v Stax.
Even Force of Will players will only have that Force of Will in their hand to stop a "Turn 0" win 40% of the time, so really as it applies to Death and Taxes, I'm only concerned with at least making the matchups feasible if you are on the play. As far as Elves, I think the same acceleration that would be great against the turn 1 decks would apply to Elves when we're talking about earlier castings of cards like THC, Containment Priest, and Ethersworn Canonist.
After some in house testing. This is going to be my deck-list for REL competition as of right now. I have done some non-traditional cuts to fit the recruiter package, along with adding some non typical DNT cards. Im no PRO-player or hardcore grinder (Got a life). But I have some experience years playing this in Modern and Legacy. Short summary of my proposed changes.
-1 Thalia, heretic cathar: I have never tutor for this with a recruiter. She does very little in the mid late game. I think she might lose her job altogether one of these days.
-1 Stoneforge: Since we can tutor for it, I think we can afford to cut 1 on G1.
-1 Sword of this/that: Maybe is just me, but most times Im fetching my first equipment is either jitte or batterskull. The sword is more of a secondary or last option. I decided to put it on the board. To compensate I have raise the "Death" level of the deck by adding a strong suit first strikers to go along with jitte to push thru goyfs/baleful strix or what not.
+1 Stonecloaker: I play this MB in my modern DnT and he is very good. He is here in lieu of the 4th flicker wisp and he adds a lot of versatility. GY hate, save a dude, re-buy a creature without targeting is huge and has evasion. In fair games where we doing the "flicker-hawk" plan. I be getting this instead of the 1st flickerwisp. Play it with a recruiter, splicer, stoneforge or wisp on board and make ur opponent blink on his end step with mom/canonist protection.
+1 Blade splicer: Awesome flicker target for fair games, 2 bodies for 4 PWR, 3/3 First strike colorless is awesome in the mirror among other hate.
3 flickerwisp
1 stone cloaker
2 recruiter of the guard
2 fiendslayer paladin
1 thalia, heretic cathar
1 mirran crusader
1 sanctum prelate
1 blade splicer
3 phyrexian revoker
3 stoneforge mystic
2 ethersworn canonist
4 mother of runes
Spell: 10
4 aether vial
4 swords to plowshares
1 batterskull
1 umezawa jitte
2 cavern of souls
2 karakas
4 wasteland
3 rishadan port
1 ghost quarter
10 plains
1 horizon canopy
Updated in the Eternal Calendar
Modern
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
It's legal today.