interesting to see a 1st place in constructed league running thought-knot seer and eldrazi displacer instead of the usual beaters as well as eldrazi temple instead of the ports. I for one welcome our new eldrazi overlords.
Tawyn, D+T really does not have much in the way of true beaters. The Eldrazi cards are popular in the Modern builds. I presume that what you are seeing is inspired by those card choices.
My THCs arrive this week and I am going to try hard to make a tournament this weekend. But I did a fair amount of testing again this weekend. I was going to put something similar to what spidernova said about the RUG and Shardless matchups. Players of decks like these will HAVE to put more basics in their decks or they will lose hard to this card. It has happened too many times now for me to call it statistical anomaly.
Facing RUG Delver, for example
On the play...
T1 Mother of Runes
T2 (Mom survived) Mystic or TGT or Port a land or StP a Delver or Revoker-meets-Daze or something *anything* useful
T3 THC resolves
T4 (THC survived)
That should about end g1. Seriously.
I've only tested THC against Chaos Elves, and it absolutely wins the game for me. I've had her come down t3, and just work the board, and i've had her come down a bit later when my opponent has established creatures. Even with Quirion Ranger and Wirewood Symbiote THC just makes the job that much harder for Elves.
Unfortunately I won't be making GP Sydney this weekend But a friend is taking my deck to play in the 3 legacy side events. This is my current MB:
Facing RUG Delver, for example
On the play...
T1 Mother of Runes
T2 (Mom survived) Mystic or TGT or Port a land or StP a Delver or Revoker-meets-Daze or something *anything* useful
T3 THC resolves
T4 (THC survived)
That should about end g1. Seriously.
Just to play devil's advocate here, that scenario could fit an opponent's double-Delver fast-win, and should the Plowshares - supposing there was one - get countered, I don't care how awesome THC is (and I do think she's awesome), that could still be a loss. Maybe this isn't others' experience, but most matchups against Delver, no matter which brew of DnT I was playing, are only a downhill battle when 2 or more Delvers flip. Even if you deal with one of them soon after, the timing doesn't generally work in our favor.
I played with 2x THC locally this weekend; she was absent in my Elves match unfortunately, another easy 2-0 for my opponent. But against Grixis Delver, she was instrumental in holding back a Gurmag Angler along with her other self, because combined 5-first strike power on the board (hey, that's a new thing!) is pretty incredible. Twin Thalias on the board is probably enough to muck up any ground game opponents have in game 1, and obviously Rest in Peace cuts them down even harder post-board.
So fundamentally, we are in agreement THC is good. I've adopted your approach of only 4 fliers to accompany her, so naturally, the best approach to hedge against the explosive 2+Delver open is just extra cheap removal. Let's all face it as well: Avenger is really a slow card for Delver anyway. When those decks have to go ground game for lack of drawing or sticking Delvers, we win. With THC, we win that game harder, but the Delver hole stays the same, so if anyone goes in on her and cuts fliers, those versions of the deck would prob consider multiple Sunlance or equivalents again.
Alrighty, I'm starting to do some serious testing again. I have two thoughts thus far:
1. THC seems really good. It pretty easily will warp a game in your favor, especially when both of the taxing effects are relevant. I'm not sure the correct way to adjust the rest of the deck to supplement the plan, but I'm pretty such THC is here to stay. I'm currently testing a build without Serra Avengers, but I have mixed feelings about that.
2. I don't think the Eldrazi matchup is necessarily favorable anymore. In the early days of the deck, the main was often loaded with Spirit Guides/Lotus Petal, Thorns, and Trinisphere. That meant that many of the matches played out like MUD, and we were quite favored as their hands filled up with clunky cards that had relatively low impact. These days, those same slots now tend to be filled with Warping Wail, Dismember, an additional Umezawa's Jitte, and Phyrexian Metamorph or Endbringer. All of those changes are bad news for us. I went 2-7 in preboard games and 2-7 in post board games today. I frequently found myself on my back foot, and I never got to bounce a Batterskull in the 18 games I played; when I first started testing this matchup, recurring Batterskull was the route to stabilizing and victory. Now I don't feel like we have time for that to necessarily happen. Thoughts?
Just to play devil's advocate here, that scenario could fit an opponent's double-Delver fast-win, and should the Plowshares - supposing there was one - get countered, I don't care how awesome THC is (and I do think she's awesome), that could still be a loss. Maybe this isn't others' experience, but most matchups against Delver, no matter which brew of DnT I was playing, are only a downhill battle when 2 or more Delvers flip. Even if you deal with one of them soon after, the timing doesn't generally work in our favor.
I played with 2x THC locally this weekend; she was absent in my Elves match unfortunately, another easy 2-0 for my opponent. But against Grixis Delver, she was instrumental in holding back a Gurmag Angler along with her other self, because combined 5-first strike power on the board (hey, that's a new thing!) is pretty incredible. Twin Thalias on the board is probably enough to muck up any ground game opponents have in game 1, and obviously Rest in Peace cuts them down even harder post-board.
So fundamentally, we are in agreement THC is good. I've adopted your approach of only 4 fliers to accompany her, so naturally, the best approach to hedge against the explosive 2+Delver open is just extra cheap removal. Let's all face it as well: Avenger is really a slow card for Delver anyway. When those decks have to go ground game for lack of drawing or sticking Delvers, we win. With THC, we win that game harder, but the Delver hole stays the same, so if anyone goes in on her and cuts fliers, those versions of the deck would prob consider multiple Sunlance or equivalents again.
Right. Point conceded that I did not account for my opponent's actions. And those actions are important in a deck like Canadian Delver. The purpose of my words was to drive home the idea that you can virtually seal up the game in a fashion that was only really possible before if you had TGT + Wingmare and you already had board control. With THC, you can achieve this same condition without having independently wrested control of the board because this chick can fight. Having their potential blockers come out tapped is occasionally important. The result is kind of a lock. Your opponents are so behind in tempo, and dropping further with every turn, that you kinda have the game wrapped up on turn 3.
@Medea, I have been using an Ensnaring Bridge in my side board and some tutors to find it. As far as I can tell, Endrazi does not have a decent answer to it.
I have little to no doubt THC is going to be a staple in D&T going forward, I'm so excited to start playing this card. I look at it like this.
In the Medea/AN build, you have 7 guys that basically just beat down and don't offer any tax/disruption between Mirran Crusader and Serra Avenger. THC easily takes over the Mirran Crusader spot and upgrades it; doesn't lower your flier count, same spot on the curve and improves the spot from solely a beater to a taxing threat. We all love double striking with a Jitte and just destroying someone in one attack, but I think the amount of games that 2nd hit of a Jitte wins you is less than the number of games THC's taxing will.
If you look at it from the perspective of the Wingmare builds I think she's an upgrade too right in the Wingmare slot. The biggest drawback to Wingmare is that it's a 3 drop that can't tangle with anything in combat. THC's taxing affect is pretty comparable and she kills a lot of the field in combat. Losing the ability to block a Delver is relevant, but do we really want to trade our 3 drop Wingmare for their 1 drop anyway? Maybe some adjusting to the sideboard is needed to compensate for that but I think it's well worth it.
Well, Winter Orb is not great with Rishadan Port, so if you run it, understand it's role. Also, If you do Orb + Ensnaring Bridge, then the traditional Enlightened Tutor side once again comes into play and you want to stack things you can ET for.
On that note, Finn, what is your SB looking like now?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard Tempo Modern Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison Legacy
5c Humans DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
This leaves me with a bad curve, and I can feel it. I'm afraid to Wasteland because I occasionally stall on land drops. I also feel kinda thin against Burn and BUG, with nothing dedicated for either. Beyond that, the usual.
I got to test the new thalia last night and she was great against lands and miracles. She led to a lot of awkward plays for both players I played against. Lands couldn't get maze of ith to work profitably and miracles had several awkward moments when he could get a fetchland online right away and his flash creatures couldn't act like ambush vipers. I definitely think new thalia has a lot of potential as a 3 or 4 of. At the moment I am testing 2 but plan to pick up at least 1 more. Currently on my WU build. Going back to the 23 land cavern version over the 24 land dust bowl version based off frenadols big dnt mana base.
I suspect that SotL might be really good in THC lists. I think the 1-2 punch of a strong hate bear on two into THC on three is lights out for most decks. That's what I'm mucking around with now.
Not at all. If that is all we have done against miracles we lose. I had multiple games against miracles where I went spirit into thc and they all ended horribly.
I don't think Miracles is the matchup in which THC shines brightest at all. It is a relevant card, to be sure. But Miracles does not skimp on its lands and does not usually either block with creatures or have haste. Thalia is going to be best against
Grixis
RUG
BUG
and will probably still be pretty good against
Elves
Sneak/Show
Eldrazi
and then still relevant in single every other matchup including Miracles.
I wrote a tournament report from this weekend here but most of my information comes from informal testing. It hardly matters. In two weeks everyone will have seen it themselves and know.
THC is really sweet. I had a couple games when she came down early and definitely threw my opponent off. She isn't great against miracles for the fact that they are going for basics anyway. She does throw off fetchlands since you can actually wasteland fetches to keep them from going nutto digging with top to find terminus, swords Etc which is perfectly fine in that match up.
I find THC to be fine against miracles; as long as we save our wastelands for opposing Karakas that is. I recently played in a 29 player tournament the day after she came out. (90 degree weather and poor advertisement =/= high attendance) THC usually felt good when I have her in hand.
My only losses were to Alluren (a surprise deck that i was not sure the best way to combat), and the modern fun police tuned for legacy; Lantern Control. I made a poor choice and was running 3 Flickerwisp and no Cataclysm in my 75. Ensnaring Bridge and Energy Field usually spell game over.
I was the one in 5th. Went 6-0-1 in Swiss and was first seed but lost to the baby stoneblade deck. Matchup is tough but totally winnable. I just drew really bad in the second game in particular. Overall loved the list and felt I played really well.
My THCs arrive this week and I am going to try hard to make a tournament this weekend. But I did a fair amount of testing again this weekend. I was going to put something similar to what spidernova said about the RUG and Shardless matchups. Players of decks like these will HAVE to put more basics in their decks or they will lose hard to this card. It has happened too many times now for me to call it statistical anomaly.
Facing RUG Delver, for example
On the play...
T1 Mother of Runes
T2 (Mom survived) Mystic or TGT or Port a land or StP a Delver or Revoker-meets-Daze or something *anything* useful
T3 THC resolves
T4 (THC survived)
That should about end g1. Seriously.
Unfortunately I won't be making GP Sydney this weekend
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Serra Avenger
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Æther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
11 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
And i'm still working on the sideboard. He's never played DnT before, but is a proficient magic player, so should be interesting to see how it goes!
WDeath and TaxesW
I played with 2x THC locally this weekend; she was absent in my Elves match unfortunately, another easy 2-0 for my opponent. But against Grixis Delver, she was instrumental in holding back a Gurmag Angler along with her other self, because combined 5-first strike power on the board (hey, that's a new thing!) is pretty incredible. Twin Thalias on the board is probably enough to muck up any ground game opponents have in game 1, and obviously Rest in Peace cuts them down even harder post-board.
So fundamentally, we are in agreement THC is good. I've adopted your approach of only 4 fliers to accompany her, so naturally, the best approach to hedge against the explosive 2+Delver open is just extra cheap removal. Let's all face it as well: Avenger is really a slow card for Delver anyway. When those decks have to go ground game for lack of drawing or sticking Delvers, we win. With THC, we win that game harder, but the Delver hole stays the same, so if anyone goes in on her and cuts fliers, those versions of the deck would prob consider multiple Sunlance or equivalents again.
1. THC seems really good. It pretty easily will warp a game in your favor, especially when both of the taxing effects are relevant. I'm not sure the correct way to adjust the rest of the deck to supplement the plan, but I'm pretty such THC is here to stay. I'm currently testing a build without Serra Avengers, but I have mixed feelings about that.
2. I don't think the Eldrazi matchup is necessarily favorable anymore. In the early days of the deck, the main was often loaded with Spirit Guides/Lotus Petal, Thorns, and Trinisphere. That meant that many of the matches played out like MUD, and we were quite favored as their hands filled up with clunky cards that had relatively low impact. These days, those same slots now tend to be filled with Warping Wail, Dismember, an additional Umezawa's Jitte, and Phyrexian Metamorph or Endbringer. All of those changes are bad news for us. I went 2-7 in preboard games and 2-7 in post board games today. I frequently found myself on my back foot, and I never got to bounce a Batterskull in the 18 games I played; when I first started testing this matchup, recurring Batterskull was the route to stabilizing and victory. Now I don't feel like we have time for that to necessarily happen. Thoughts?
@Medea, I have been using an Ensnaring Bridge in my side board and some tutors to find it. As far as I can tell, Endrazi does not have a decent answer to it.
In the Medea/AN build, you have 7 guys that basically just beat down and don't offer any tax/disruption between Mirran Crusader and Serra Avenger. THC easily takes over the Mirran Crusader spot and upgrades it; doesn't lower your flier count, same spot on the curve and improves the spot from solely a beater to a taxing threat. We all love double striking with a Jitte and just destroying someone in one attack, but I think the amount of games that 2nd hit of a Jitte wins you is less than the number of games THC's taxing will.
If you look at it from the perspective of the Wingmare builds I think she's an upgrade too right in the Wingmare slot. The biggest drawback to Wingmare is that it's a 3 drop that can't tangle with anything in combat. THC's taxing affect is pretty comparable and she kills a lot of the field in combat. Losing the ability to block a Delver is relevant, but do we really want to trade our 3 drop Wingmare for their 1 drop anyway? Maybe some adjusting to the sideboard is needed to compensate for that but I think it's well worth it.
Was thinking the same with Crackdown...
On that note, Finn, what is your SB looking like now?
Modern
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
-4 Mother of Runes
-3 Phyrexian Revoker
+2 Enlightened Tutor
+2 Fiend Hunter
+1 Ensnaring Bridge
+2 Council's Judgment
This leaves me with a bad curve, and I can feel it. I'm afraid to Wasteland because I occasionally stall on land drops. I also feel kinda thin against Burn and BUG, with nothing dedicated for either. Beyond that, the usual.
Winter Orb HAS been a fine sideboard option against Miracles/Lands/Post predating Eldritch Moon/Thalia, Heretic Cathar. It already provides a powerful asymmetrical effect given DnT's use of Æther Vial. Adding it to any combination of Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Wasteland and Rishadan Port ensures these mana hungry decks don't execute their game plans.
+1 to Crackdown being both fine before and even better now.
I suspect that SotL might be really good in THC lists. I think the 1-2 punch of a strong hate bear on two into THC on three is lights out for most decks. That's what I'm mucking around with now.
Grixis
RUG
BUG
and will probably still be pretty good against
Elves
Sneak/Show
Eldrazi
and then still relevant in single every other matchup including Miracles.
I wrote a tournament report from this weekend here but most of my information comes from informal testing. It hardly matters. In two weeks everyone will have seen it themselves and know.
My only losses were to Alluren (a surprise deck that i was not sure the best way to combat), and the modern fun police tuned for legacy; Lantern Control. I made a poor choice and was running 3 Flickerwisp and no Cataclysm in my 75. Ensnaring Bridge and Energy Field usually spell game over.
Three D&T in the top 16 this time around. The Stoneblade list is particularly interesting, btw.
Edit: now with the correct link
Likely a mix of both.