In my testing, THC is going to have a positive effect upon the Elves matchup, but only if you can actually make it to turn 3. <-- No surprise there, but it begs the question of which is the best way to get us to turn 3. Sunlance is probably a good sideboard card in general. It may be my first choice. But I really want to be able to hit a Thought-Knot Seer. Ideas?
Against elves I have found that they will still fetch basic forest against us to limit the disruption we can actually bring into a game. If I remember correctly they run 1 basic and if that is the case path to exile is a fine removal spell for both match ups early.
Finn, this could be the black splash enthusiast in me talking here, but you want something fast that hits everything, Elves and Eldrazi included... it's Dismember only. Now of course, that card gets better of time when you have black mana to produce, and worse over time when you don't, but with Elves, we're never talking a match of longevity. Casting it with Port/Wasteland while casting your white spells same turn is very much enough to put you ahead. Probably can only run 1 in your 75, though we're only talking about a "5th" Plowshares, not a "6th" one, right?
Also, been meaning to post about this, because I've even took to adopting the card... Banisher Priest. I saw it in Enevoldsen's recent GP Top8 list, and though I'd thought the card bad when Punishing Fire was more our greatest threat (not to mention it can't get the double whammy of value with Flickerwisp like Fiend Hunter), right now it makes a lot of sense. Everyone wants a reliable answer to an Eldrazi of your choice with as little drawback as possible, and being that that deck often sports Warping Wail, it's good to gum up the works for them as much as possible. Still survives the -1/-1 effects, and attacks for a point more than Fiend Hunter. Now, my own personal inclinations are to avoid cards that trade back the opponent's card when it dies, but it has proven to be a viable option for certain low-opposing-removal matches. Interestingly enough, Priest and Hunter work better when you have Mom, but Enevoldsen went down to 3 Moms in his build, perhaps as a concession to Eldrazi/Warping Wail and Terminus.
Will that serve as a 3-drop as good as THC (^ I second this as the official shorthand moniker) against Elves? Probably not. But probably better than a 2nd Sunlance.
I piloted a list of Imperial Taxes to a 3-0 finish at our local Sunday Legacy yesterday, beating Elves! (2-1), Elves! (2-1), and Lands (2-1). My list, subtly tweaked to the expected metagame:
A few new things became apparent to me while battling through the hordes of green woodfolk, and I thought I might share: It's positively _amazing_ how much a Land->Aether Vial->Rishadan Port start can do for you in this matchup. I know this is pretty much what you wish for against most opponents, but I won three games mostly on the back of this kind of disruptive start against the two elves players, without actually seeing StP (but Equipment later on) in these games at all. Once you have a Vial at three, don't hesitate to flicker lands away as a means of temporary mana denial to hamper their board development during your end step or their upkeep. Don't get too greedy with Sudden Demise; trading 2-for-1 can absolutely be enough to set up a win. Aven Mindcensor does a lot in this matchup (virtually guarantees Jitte counters due to flying, cripples their Natural Order, Green Sun's Zenith and Fetchlands, and catches them by surprise).
Lands was, of course, totally dominated by Magus of the Moon. The fact that Magus off of Vial in response to Punishing Fire shuts off that one copy's recursion is back-breakingly important for both players to keep in mind. As an aside, my favourite moment of the match: Opponent's board consisting of Grove of the Burnwillows, Thespian's Stage and another Land, with a Punishing Fire in the graveyard that's threatening to deal with all my threats. My board: 2 Plains, 1 Cavern. Play Wasteland, sac to destroy his Grove - opponent responds by copying Grove via Stage. Stack resolves. Cast Flickerwisp, targeting the Stage-acting-as-if-it-were-Grove - his eyes widened a fair bit at that point
I have a few quick questions for you Finn regarding Thalia, Heretic Cathar as I saw you posting about testing it a bit over on the source.
1. Are there any plays or moments you can recall from testing that stand out making her an auto include? Also what kind of numbers feel correct to you?
2. Were there ever times where you felt like her ability was just useless and wished she were something like a Mangara, extra Mirran Crusader, Brimaz, spirit of the labyrinth?
3. My last question is if you tested the elves match up, when did she seem strong and when did she seem underwhelming? It would seem that on draw with a druid or ranger that having a couple nettle Sentinel would leave me thinking that she wasn't good enough, but on combo turns with 1 sentinel she then would seem like a fine way to hold them back a bit. I don't let myself get tilted by this match up anymore, but it would be nice to add something that could slightly improve it closer to 30-70 rather than 10-90 in their favor. Maybe I'm not giving us enough credit but in my experience it really seems like elves is close to 10-90 their favor
It might depend too much on matchup, board state and what's in your hand to have a rule of thumb. In addition to the mana efficiency and countermagic blanking that you mention, Vial's great for avoiding sorcery-speed removal, providing combat tricks, and creating instant-speed disruption. This flexibility means that it's used in widely-varying ways.
I'd happily go to 3 if I had a hand full of equipment, StP, and Flickerwisps. I'd be more cautious with Chalice on 2 and no Flickerwisp to reset Chalice.
The only correct answer to that questions is going to be: It totally depends on your build (esp. the number of 2- and 3-drops you are running), and the current board state.
Generally speaking, I keep my Vial at two for as long as needed and possible, simply because it can be argued that the most important things you'll definitely want or even actually need to hit the battlefield are costed at 2 (Stonforge, Thalia, Revoker). I "blindly" (by that I mean if I don't have any (relevant) 3-drops in hand) tick it up to three if and only if, given that my next draw rewards me for making that choice, the reward I hope for is worth that risk (an example where this decision is very easy to make: Suppose I have a Vial at two, no cards in hand, and my opponent has a Marit Lage token on the battlefield - no 2-drop I could ever hope to draw could be good enough to outperform a Fiend Hunter or Flickerwisp in that situation, which is why it's the only correct play to put a third counter on Vial).
It is however pretty common that I, for example, play both Thalia and Stoneforge off of Vial while I do hold a Flickerwisp in hand. Saving a random permanent or having a minor interaction with an one of my opponent's usually isn't better than making sure to have equipment in hand (and likely even on the battlefield), and also usually isn't more important than taxing your opponent's non-creature spells.
Blindly ticking up your Vial to 3 asap may in fact make you lose tempo in the end - imagine you top-deck two or three 2-drops in a row (if your build has significantly more two-drops than three-drops, that's a highly relevant scenario to consider) while your Vial is just sitting by idly, waiting for that awesome CMC=3-critter that isn't arriving. Even worse, if you want these drawn CMC=2 cards to do something, you'll now have to pay actual, cold, hard mana for that to happen. Ew!
Totally depends on the match, board state and hand. That said, Imperial Taxes wants to go to 3 a little bit more than the strictly white version as we want to be able to Vial in Magus of the Moon and most importantly Imperial Recruiter.
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It's better to keep vial at 2 in general, because it gives you the most options and flexibility. If you tick vial up to 3 and draw a string of 2s, it feels bad. If you leave vial at 2 and draw a bunch of 3s, well you can just start moving it up to 3 after the first 3 is drawn. You can always move from 2 to 3, but the only way to go from 3 to 2 is to do a long and round-about flickerwisp reset. In Magic, I think it's always better to do things at the last possible moment to maximize the amount of information you have before you need to make a decision.
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I have a few quick questions for you Finn regarding Thalia, Heretic Cathar as I saw you posting about testing it a bit over on the source.
1. Are there any plays or moments you can recall from testing that stand out making her an auto include? Also what kind of numbers feel correct to you?
2. Were there ever times where you felt like her ability was just useless and wished she were something like a Mangara, extra Mirran Crusader, Brimaz, spirit of the labyrinth?
3. My last question is if you tested the elves match up, when did she seem strong and when did she seem underwhelming? It would seem that on draw with a druid or ranger that having a couple nettle Sentinel would leave me thinking that she wasn't good enough, but on combo turns with 1 sentinel she then would seem like a fine way to hold them back a bit. I don't let myself get tilted by this match up anymore, but it would be nice to add something that could slightly improve it closer to 30-70 rather than 10-90 in their favor. Maybe I'm not giving us enough credit but in my experience it really seems like elves is close to 10-90 their favor
Good questions:
1. THC seems to me to be sort of what we wanted Vryn Wingmare to be. The problem I always had with Wingmare (and Glowrider before that) was that it causes D+T to have an approach that is too narrow. But THC is an addendum to what TGT wants to do to the game, and not more of the same. That is, it makes D+T do more of what D+T does - but from a different angle, so it catches some different decks in its net. And she is a fighter to boot. The closest comparison I can make was when Threshold decks (like RUG) in 2007 swapped out their Werebears for Tarmogoyfs. There was the slight downside of not getting that extra mana, but the upside made the deck do its thing so much better.
2. Sure. Well, kinda. This brings me to a point I wanted to make. I seem to be getting more blowout victories. The tools we have now against stuff like Grixis Pyro and Jund and Shardless BUG are so disrupting that I can get far out in front in a way that was much less common in the past. That seems good, of course. You can feel the power of the deck big time. But I do drop a game here and there because I swapped out aggro stuff to achieve that goal. So, yeah. I have been trapped by Punishing Fire. I have been holding a duplicate legend in my hand. But I am leaning toward "it's worth it".
3. THC only seemed underwhelming when turn 3 was pointless. At all times when I got to turn 3 in decent shape - like I said, holding STP and her in the starting grip - I won most of those. I figure you want concrete stuff, so I might say that having her in the deck improves the matchup by perhaps 15%.
Quote from makguffin »
I had an interesting discussion with a friend about "ticking up the Vial".
I have found that there is a kind of intuition that comes with ticking up the vial. That said, I rarely feel that I ticked it up too fast, and I am fairly aggressive with it. I agree with you over your friend about going to three sooner rather than later, and for the same reasons.
**********
One more thing: Considering what a considerable part of [at least my] game, THC has become, I wonder if 2x Eiganjo Castle makes sense. Her butt of 2 (and not 1) is important because the castle gets her past bolts.
As someone with 8 fliers and 3 Crusaders, dropping so much evasion seems pretty scary. Is the somewhat slower, ground-game based build sufficiently capable against Mentor/Pyromancer swarms, Anglers, Eldrazi beaters, and Elf bouncing shenanigans that you're never wishing for more evasion?
Yesterday, while playing in my regular Legacy playtesting group, I had an interesting discussion with a friend about "ticking up the Vial".
His argument was to wait as often as possible with ticking up the Vial to 3, and stretch it with 2 as long as possible - simple reason: you are way more likely to hit a 2-drop than a 3-drop.
My argument was - I use Vial mostly for mana efficiency than for "un-counterability". Plus: the best mid to late-game tricks come from the best three drop I have, Flickerwisp. Maybe I didn't pay attention, but as far as I remember most video coverage I watched I always noticed that the players would go to 3 quite fast...
Any opinions on this?
I race to 3. I have quite a few double-white three drops and Vial is my most reliable way to cast them.
One more thing: Considering what a considerable part of [at least my] game, THC has become, I wonder if 2x Eiganjo Castle makes sense. Her butt of 2 (and not 1) is important because the castle gets her past bolts.
I too have been pondering the castle. Definitely worth testing. I've been playing with Managara too, so bonus points there.
As someone with 8 fliers and 3 Crusaders, dropping so much evasion seems pretty scary. Is the somewhat slower, ground-game based build sufficiently capable against Mentor/Pyromancer swarms, Anglers, Eldrazi beaters, and Elf bouncing shenanigans that you're never wishing for more evasion?
Curby, i expect to drop a game here and there from what you described. From what I have seen though, it is a good trade-off. On that note, though. I wonder if putting at least one more sword in the sb is a good plan. I like the green/black one.
I was just reading your interesting closing thoughts on the BUG matchup. You note that both sides feel favored in this matchup. I definitely feel favored, so much so that I do not use Wilt-Leaf Liege, Mirran Crusader, or even bother with particular Golgari Charm defense at all. In a nutshell, I go in entirely unprepared for this matchup and I still expect to win. I would be very interested to hear what others, especially BUG players have to say on this matter.
Played with 2 in the main for a 36 man legacy tourney. Strong in theory but sample size was just too small. Either she was killed outright or came down too late to really maximize on her effect. Maybe it was unfamiliarity now but 3 opponents made misplays with her on the board. I lost to Burn killing me from 13 life with 4 cards in his hand, and to RUG where I mulled 2 games and was mana screwed out by his timely wastelands, and screwed by his sulfur elementals.
Went with 2 Brimaz too, which gave me 8 legends, so I went back to 4 Karakas. Not really sure if that's correct but that was my setup before with 2 Mangara's instead of Thalia, Heretic Cathar and before I moved to Mirran Crusaders. Granted, maximizing Karakas has a higher ceiling with main deck Mangara's.
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Also, been meaning to post about this, because I've even took to adopting the card... Banisher Priest. I saw it in Enevoldsen's recent GP Top8 list, and though I'd thought the card bad when Punishing Fire was more our greatest threat (not to mention it can't get the double whammy of value with Flickerwisp like Fiend Hunter), right now it makes a lot of sense. Everyone wants a reliable answer to an Eldrazi of your choice with as little drawback as possible, and being that that deck often sports Warping Wail, it's good to gum up the works for them as much as possible. Still survives the -1/-1 effects, and attacks for a point more than Fiend Hunter. Now, my own personal inclinations are to avoid cards that trade back the opponent's card when it dies, but it has proven to be a viable option for certain low-opposing-removal matches. Interestingly enough, Priest and Hunter work better when you have Mom, but Enevoldsen went down to 3 Moms in his build, perhaps as a concession to Eldrazi/Warping Wail and Terminus.
Will that serve as a 3-drop as good as THC (^ I second this as the official shorthand moniker) against Elves? Probably not. But probably better than a 2nd Sunlance.
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Flickerwisp
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Kor Skyfisher
1 Fiendslayer Paladin
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
4 AEther Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Flooded Strand
3 Plateau
2 Plains
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Windswept Heath
3 Sudden Demise
2 Rest in Peace
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Cataclysm
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
1 Containment Priest
A few new things became apparent to me while battling through the hordes of green woodfolk, and I thought I might share: It's positively _amazing_ how much a Land->Aether Vial->Rishadan Port start can do for you in this matchup. I know this is pretty much what you wish for against most opponents, but I won three games mostly on the back of this kind of disruptive start against the two elves players, without actually seeing StP (but Equipment later on) in these games at all. Once you have a Vial at three, don't hesitate to flicker lands away as a means of temporary mana denial to hamper their board development during your end step or their upkeep. Don't get too greedy with Sudden Demise; trading 2-for-1 can absolutely be enough to set up a win. Aven Mindcensor does a lot in this matchup (virtually guarantees Jitte counters due to flying, cripples their Natural Order, Green Sun's Zenith and Fetchlands, and catches them by surprise).
Lands was, of course, totally dominated by Magus of the Moon. The fact that Magus off of Vial in response to Punishing Fire shuts off that one copy's recursion is back-breakingly important for both players to keep in mind. As an aside, my favourite moment of the match: Opponent's board consisting of Grove of the Burnwillows, Thespian's Stage and another Land, with a Punishing Fire in the graveyard that's threatening to deal with all my threats. My board: 2 Plains, 1 Cavern. Play Wasteland, sac to destroy his Grove - opponent responds by copying Grove via Stage. Stack resolves. Cast Flickerwisp, targeting the Stage-acting-as-if-it-were-Grove - his eyes widened a fair bit at that point
1. Are there any plays or moments you can recall from testing that stand out making her an auto include? Also what kind of numbers feel correct to you?
2. Were there ever times where you felt like her ability was just useless and wished she were something like a Mangara, extra Mirran Crusader, Brimaz, spirit of the labyrinth?
3. My last question is if you tested the elves match up, when did she seem strong and when did she seem underwhelming? It would seem that on draw with a druid or ranger that having a couple nettle Sentinel would leave me thinking that she wasn't good enough, but on combo turns with 1 sentinel she then would seem like a fine way to hold them back a bit. I don't let myself get tilted by this match up anymore, but it would be nice to add something that could slightly improve it closer to 30-70 rather than 10-90 in their favor. Maybe I'm not giving us enough credit but in my experience it really seems like elves is close to 10-90 their favor
I'd happily go to 3 if I had a hand full of equipment, StP, and Flickerwisps. I'd be more cautious with Chalice on 2 and no Flickerwisp to reset Chalice.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Generally speaking, I keep my Vial at two for as long as needed and possible, simply because it can be argued that the most important things you'll definitely want or even actually need to hit the battlefield are costed at 2 (Stonforge, Thalia, Revoker). I "blindly" (by that I mean if I don't have any (relevant) 3-drops in hand) tick it up to three if and only if, given that my next draw rewards me for making that choice, the reward I hope for is worth that risk (an example where this decision is very easy to make: Suppose I have a Vial at two, no cards in hand, and my opponent has a Marit Lage token on the battlefield - no 2-drop I could ever hope to draw could be good enough to outperform a Fiend Hunter or Flickerwisp in that situation, which is why it's the only correct play to put a third counter on Vial).
It is however pretty common that I, for example, play both Thalia and Stoneforge off of Vial while I do hold a Flickerwisp in hand. Saving a random permanent or having a minor interaction with an one of my opponent's usually isn't better than making sure to have equipment in hand (and likely even on the battlefield), and also usually isn't more important than taxing your opponent's non-creature spells.
Blindly ticking up your Vial to 3 asap may in fact make you lose tempo in the end - imagine you top-deck two or three 2-drops in a row (if your build has significantly more two-drops than three-drops, that's a highly relevant scenario to consider) while your Vial is just sitting by idly, waiting for that awesome CMC=3-critter that isn't arriving. Even worse, if you want these drawn CMC=2 cards to do something, you'll now have to pay actual, cold, hard mana for that to happen. Ew!
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Good questions:
1. THC seems to me to be sort of what we wanted Vryn Wingmare to be. The problem I always had with Wingmare (and Glowrider before that) was that it causes D+T to have an approach that is too narrow. But THC is an addendum to what TGT wants to do to the game, and not more of the same. That is, it makes D+T do more of what D+T does - but from a different angle, so it catches some different decks in its net. And she is a fighter to boot. The closest comparison I can make was when Threshold decks (like RUG) in 2007 swapped out their Werebears for Tarmogoyfs. There was the slight downside of not getting that extra mana, but the upside made the deck do its thing so much better.
2. Sure. Well, kinda. This brings me to a point I wanted to make. I seem to be getting more blowout victories. The tools we have now against stuff like Grixis Pyro and Jund and Shardless BUG are so disrupting that I can get far out in front in a way that was much less common in the past. That seems good, of course. You can feel the power of the deck big time. But I do drop a game here and there because I swapped out aggro stuff to achieve that goal. So, yeah. I have been trapped by Punishing Fire. I have been holding a duplicate legend in my hand. But I am leaning toward "it's worth it".
3. THC only seemed underwhelming when turn 3 was pointless. At all times when I got to turn 3 in decent shape - like I said, holding STP and her in the starting grip - I won most of those. I figure you want concrete stuff, so I might say that having her in the deck improves the matchup by perhaps 15%.
I have found that there is a kind of intuition that comes with ticking up the vial. That said, I rarely feel that I ticked it up too fast, and I am fairly aggressive with it. I agree with you over your friend about going to three sooner rather than later, and for the same reasons.
**********
One more thing: Considering what a considerable part of [at least my] game, THC has become, I wonder if 2x Eiganjo Castle makes sense. Her butt of 2 (and not 1) is important because the castle gets her past bolts.
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Mangara of Corondor
As someone with 8 fliers and 3 Crusaders, dropping so much evasion seems pretty scary. Is the somewhat slower, ground-game based build sufficiently capable against Mentor/Pyromancer swarms, Anglers, Eldrazi beaters, and Elf bouncing shenanigans that you're never wishing for more evasion?
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
I race to 3. I have quite a few double-white three drops and Vial is my most reliable way to cast them.
A glorious venn diagram titled "Pithing Needle vs Phyrexian Revoker" for all of us to print out and hang on our walls in a highly visible place.
I too have been pondering the castle. Definitely worth testing. I've been playing with Managara too, so bonus points there.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/661941-list-of-stores-that-support-legacy
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28892-Compilation-Of-Legacy-Streams
Went with 2 Brimaz too, which gave me 8 legends, so I went back to 4 Karakas. Not really sure if that's correct but that was my setup before with 2 Mangara's instead of Thalia, Heretic Cathar and before I moved to Mirran Crusaders. Granted, maximizing Karakas has a higher ceiling with main deck Mangara's.
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