Thanks to everyone for your warm words. Making L2 means a great deal to me, and I'm looking forward to helping others with my new title.
Speaking of, are there any D&T-related rulings that you struggle with (or that you now understand but initially thought were confusing)? For example, interactions between Thalia and cards like Ancestral Vision or Trinisphere? I want to write little posts (likely a few paragraphs) about some of these things.
It'd be nice if there was a more permalink-friendly comprehensive rules document that you could link to as you wrote these helpful hints (perhaps this exists?). I recently learned about Revoker shutting off DRS's not-quite-mana-ability for example; maybe that's something that could help others as well. Expanding on what works, what doesn't work, and what's not worth worrying about with Revoker might be a good thing.
A lot of these rulings are only issues because they involve creative ways to use the rules to our advantage, like Frenadol's recent description of Flickerwisp-Restoration handling Griselbrand, or the original Mangara/Karakas interaction. In that light, it might make sense to have a tips and tricks section that explains certain interactions and links/quotes the comp rules where appropriate. Or alternately have that in addition to a more rules-only section if they really seem distinct.
2c!
P.S. Speaking of Thalia, she helps control Cascaders (if they tap out to cast Shardless Agent for example). And just to sanity check: Ethersworn Canonist should have a similar effect on the Cascaded spell (i.e. it stops it), right?
Keep in mind that Shardless Agent is an artifact, so if it was their first spell, Canonist would not prevent them from casting a spell they cascaded into. However, Canonist would stop them if from cascading into a non-artifact spell if a non-artifact spell had been previously cast. One other interaction to be aware of here is that they cannot use Deathrite to pay the cascade tax if Thalia is in play because Deathrite is not a mana ability - stop your opponent if they try that.
@Medea
Another fairly common interaction is how Thalia works with Engineered Explosives. I've had opponents decide to pay extra mana because they were feeling so generous. I've also seen the Stage/Depths/Wasteland interaction come up here before, and is an important one to know.
And if they have a tapped Stage copying Port/Forest/etc., you Pithing Needle Port/Forest/etc. to prevent them from switching Stage over to Depths, right?
And just to make sure I understand the EE thing, all they needed was to cast it with X=1 with Thalia out if they wanted EE with 2 counters, but they didn't realize Sunburst counted the mana for Thalia so they needlessly paid 3 total mana?
Yes Curby, Pithing Needle would prevent that Stage from copying anything else in that scenario because Stage is now a Forest/Port/etc with an extra ability to copy. No longer named Thespian's Stage. And you're exactly right about the Engineered Explosives interaction. Sunburst takes the tax into account. Sometimes opponents don't realize that's the case, and end up paying more mana. Happened to me just this past weekend.
@esplandes
Suppose your opponent is copying Dark Depths with Stage while you have an untapped Wasteland. You could throw Wasteland at either land before the copy ability resolves, however it is best to let Stage copy it. Dark Depths gets sacrificed to the legend rule. Then a trigger goes on the stack for the Stage/Depths land because it has zero counters. You can then respond to the trigger by targeting the land with Wasteland. In that scenario, your opponent has lost both lands. Also, if you're ever playing a deck with Stifle, never counter the zero counter trigger. It will counter the trigger, but the trigger will once again be put on the stack after it resolves. I've seen that mistake made before.
New to the Legacy Variant of the deck. Can anyone explain to me why many recent list's I've been seeing have been moving away from mangara of corondor.
Thanks for any answers and Thanks for the wonderful thread to help me transition to the legacy variant of D&T
I think the main reason is how slow he is. You can do the same thing with Fiend Hunter (but it takes 1WW mana and a 3 vial for a Flickerwisp) instead of a turn + Karakas, plus you can hard-cast Fiend Hunter to get rid of something immediately if you need to. I could be wrong, though. Some lists still see him as a 1-of, 1 in the side.
When I first started playing this deck 3 Mangaras were the norm. Then it dropped to 2, then to 1. And now I don't run him anymore. It's not that he's too slow, but too weak stat wise. A 3 mana 1/1 is not something you can afford to do even against those grindy matchups where he shines the most (miracles, stoneblade, shardless). Izzet Staticaster, Golgari Charm, Sulfur Elemental and, most importantly, Dread of Night, are real cards. You should try to build you deck taking -1/-1 effects into account, and Mangara is overall the least impactful creature of those available to you. He's an okay Game 1 card before the hate comes out of the sideboard for your opponent, but chances are you're going to side him out after every single game regardless of how well he performs.
*Originally posted this on Reddit to the same question a week ago
@Frenadol
Very well said. I've seen my list go through a similar evolution over the years. The hate on x/1 bodies is real, and should be a deckbuilding consideration.
I'm waiting on one more piece of content from a guest author that I'll likely get tomorrow. After that, I'm going to do one more pass of proofreading, make a few cosmetic changes, move it off my friend's server, and release it into the wild. It will be live absolutely no later than June 23rd, as that's when I'll be starting my summer job at Latin Academy.
And if they have a tapped Stage copying Port/Forest/etc., you Pithing Needle Port/Forest/etc. to prevent them from switching Stage over to Depths, right?
And just to make sure I understand the EE thing, all they needed was to cast it with X=1 with Thalia out if they wanted EE with 2 counters, but they didn't realize Sunburst counted the mana for Thalia so they needlessly paid 3 total mana?
Yes to both. This gives them the option of finding a new stage and still comboing out, but naming the card it's currently copying is what you want to do, since it's a copy of said land with thespian's stages ability.
And yes, EE basically costs the same with Thalia out, as you can cast it for X = 1, and then pay the tax with a colored mana that will be factored in towards the sunburst count.
If there's any other lands related questions, I can do my best to answer them as I have a lot of experience with the deck.
Thanks to everyone for your warm words. Making L2 means a great deal to me, and I'm looking forward to helping others with my new title.
Speaking of, are there any D&T-related rulings that you struggle with (or that you now understand but initially thought were confusing)? For example, interactions between Thalia and cards like Ancestral Vision or Trinisphere? I want to write little posts (likely a few paragraphs) about some of these things.
A couple things that spring to mind is: where do the cards go when someone destroys Rest in Peace (occasionally causes a moment of consideration), and what happens if you "Mangara" a target and the target goes away before Mangara's ability resolves (the Mangara remains on the battlefield). That one occasionally catches opponents unawares, and from time to time, I mechanically go to exile my Mangara before I remember.
The interaction between RIP, Flagstones and Cataclysm is also something worth talking about. If i control both permanents and cast a Cata saccing both, do I get to search for a Plains? I asked our local TO once who is a part time pro player and he said it shouldn't trigger but I'd like to see some definitive rulings on that.
I would have to say that flagstones wouldn't trigger since it would be exiled due to the static effect of rest in peace being on the board when things are going away. If it was an effect like smallpox which causes you to do things in order, then it would work if rest in peace went away first. Since they all go to the bin at the same time they would all get exiled and cataclysm still ends up in the bin once it is done resolving.
Yeah, the 10/1/2012 ruling for Rest in Peace in Gatherer says:
While Rest in Peace is on the battlefield, abilities that trigger whenever a creature dies won’t trigger because cards and tokens never reach a player’s graveyard.
I'd assume the same would be said of lands as well, and since Flagstones never reaches your graveyard, you don't get the search.
@ECT the tricky part is that RIP is also going away at the same time as Flagstones. This might be similar to how Phantasmal Image off S&T cannot clone the Showed Emrakul, or what happens when RIP is Disenchanted.
Yes, but with Cataclysm everything goes away at the same time while rest in peace is still active. With cards like disenchant or other enchantment killers, rest in peace is exiled from its own ability and then the removal spell goes to the yard. Everything sacrificed to cataclysm is exiled and Cataclysm would go to the yard.
@ECT the tricky part is that RIP is also going away at the same time as Flagstones. This might be similar to how Phantasmal Image off S&T cannot clone the Showed Emrakul, or what happens when RIP is Disenchanted.
If you disenchant a RIP, the RIP is exiled and the disenchant goes into the graveyard. If you Cataclysm away a RIP and a Flagstones, the RIP and Flagstones both get exiled so it doesn't trigger. The Cataclysm goes to the bin at the end of it all.
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I live for fair Magic.
Ooooo, you guys found a good one! I'll drop the judge lingo on your guys:
Rest in Peace has what we call a replacement effect. If a card *would* go to the graveyard, it is exiled *instead.* Now take a look at Flagstones. That has a trigger (notice the word *when*) that happens when it is put in a graveyard. Rest in Peace prevents Flagstones from ever going to the graveyard, so its ability will never trigger.
Does this change with Cataclysm? The short answer is no. Notice on Cataclysm that it says and "sacrifices the rest." Any permanents that will be sacrificed are all sacrificed at the same time. Rest in Peace's replacement effect applies to itself and to every permanent sacrificed. All of the sacrificed cards go to exile, and the final step of resolving a spell is to put it in your graveyard. Now that RiP is gone, Cataclysm (or any other spell that would have destroyed it, for that matter) hits the graveyard.
Edit:
@Curby
Yes, clones can only copy something that already existed on the battlefield at the time it was placed in. The rulings all look something like this:
7/1/2012: If Clone somehow enters the battlefield at the same time as another creature, Clone can't become a copy of that creature. You may only choose a creature that's already on the battlefield.
I'm fairly sure that Medea has this correct. The very old version of this scenario was with Nevinyrral's Disk, Benalish Hero, and Regeneration on it. When the disk gets popped, you can activate Regeneration to save the hero.
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Congrats!
Modern
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Speaking of, are there any D&T-related rulings that you struggle with (or that you now understand but initially thought were confusing)? For example, interactions between Thalia and cards like Ancestral Vision or Trinisphere? I want to write little posts (likely a few paragraphs) about some of these things.
A lot of these rulings are only issues because they involve creative ways to use the rules to our advantage, like Frenadol's recent description of Flickerwisp-Restoration handling Griselbrand, or the original Mangara/Karakas interaction. In that light, it might make sense to have a tips and tricks section that explains certain interactions and links/quotes the comp rules where appropriate. Or alternately have that in addition to a more rules-only section if they really seem distinct.
2c!
P.S. Speaking of Thalia, she helps control Cascaders (if they tap out to cast Shardless Agent for example). And just to sanity check: Ethersworn Canonist should have a similar effect on the Cascaded spell (i.e. it stops it), right?
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Keep in mind that Shardless Agent is an artifact, so if it was their first spell, Canonist would not prevent them from casting a spell they cascaded into. However, Canonist would stop them if from cascading into a non-artifact spell if a non-artifact spell had been previously cast. One other interaction to be aware of here is that they cannot use Deathrite to pay the cascade tax if Thalia is in play because Deathrite is not a mana ability - stop your opponent if they try that.
@Medea
Another fairly common interaction is how Thalia works with Engineered Explosives. I've had opponents decide to pay extra mana because they were feeling so generous. I've also seen the Stage/Depths/Wasteland interaction come up here before, and is an important one to know.
And just to make sure I understand the EE thing, all they needed was to cast it with X=1 with Thalia out if they wanted EE with 2 counters, but they didn't realize Sunburst counted the mana for Thalia so they needlessly paid 3 total mana?
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
BG Collected Company Elves
Legacy
W Death and Taxes
EDH
GW Sigarda, Host of Herons
GW Saffi Eriksdotter
@esplandes
Suppose your opponent is copying Dark Depths with Stage while you have an untapped Wasteland. You could throw Wasteland at either land before the copy ability resolves, however it is best to let Stage copy it. Dark Depths gets sacrificed to the legend rule. Then a trigger goes on the stack for the Stage/Depths land because it has zero counters. You can then respond to the trigger by targeting the land with Wasteland. In that scenario, your opponent has lost both lands. Also, if you're ever playing a deck with Stifle, never counter the zero counter trigger. It will counter the trigger, but the trigger will once again be put on the stack after it resolves. I've seen that mistake made before.
Thanks for any answers and Thanks for the wonderful thread to help me transition to the legacy variant of D&T
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
BG Collected Company Elves
Legacy
W Death and Taxes
EDH
GW Sigarda, Host of Herons
GW Saffi Eriksdotter
*Originally posted this on Reddit to the same question a week ago
My primer on lands has a long discussion about those tricks. The Thalia and EE one is great, and I'll add that.
Very well said. I've seen my list go through a similar evolution over the years. The hate on x/1 bodies is real, and should be a deckbuilding consideration.
@Medea
Are any of your primers available yet?
I'm waiting on one more piece of content from a guest author that I'll likely get tomorrow. After that, I'm going to do one more pass of proofreading, make a few cosmetic changes, move it off my friend's server, and release it into the wild. It will be live absolutely no later than June 23rd, as that's when I'll be starting my summer job at Latin Academy.
Yes to both. This gives them the option of finding a new stage and still comboing out, but naming the card it's currently copying is what you want to do, since it's a copy of said land with thespian's stages ability.
And yes, EE basically costs the same with Thalia out, as you can cast it for X = 1, and then pay the tax with a colored mana that will be factored in towards the sunburst count.
If there's any other lands related questions, I can do my best to answer them as I have a lot of experience with the deck.
WGURBLands!WGURB
WGUInfectWGU
Legacy Lands Primer
Top 8 SCG Oakland 2014
Helpdesk
My Cube on CubeTutor
A couple things that spring to mind is: where do the cards go when someone destroys Rest in Peace (occasionally causes a moment of consideration), and what happens if you "Mangara" a target and the target goes away before Mangara's ability resolves (the Mangara remains on the battlefield). That one occasionally catches opponents unawares, and from time to time, I mechanically go to exile my Mangara before I remember.
J
I'd assume the same would be said of lands as well, and since Flagstones never reaches your graveyard, you don't get the search.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
If you disenchant a RIP, the RIP is exiled and the disenchant goes into the graveyard. If you Cataclysm away a RIP and a Flagstones, the RIP and Flagstones both get exiled so it doesn't trigger. The Cataclysm goes to the bin at the end of it all.
I live for fair Magic.
Legacy: D&T/Lands
Modern: BGx
Rest in Peace has what we call a replacement effect. If a card *would* go to the graveyard, it is exiled *instead.* Now take a look at Flagstones. That has a trigger (notice the word *when*) that happens when it is put in a graveyard. Rest in Peace prevents Flagstones from ever going to the graveyard, so its ability will never trigger.
Does this change with Cataclysm? The short answer is no. Notice on Cataclysm that it says and "sacrifices the rest." Any permanents that will be sacrificed are all sacrificed at the same time. Rest in Peace's replacement effect applies to itself and to every permanent sacrificed. All of the sacrificed cards go to exile, and the final step of resolving a spell is to put it in your graveyard. Now that RiP is gone, Cataclysm (or any other spell that would have destroyed it, for that matter) hits the graveyard.
Edit:
@Curby
Yes, clones can only copy something that already existed on the battlefield at the time it was placed in. The rulings all look something like this:
7/1/2012: If Clone somehow enters the battlefield at the same time as another creature, Clone can't become a copy of that creature. You may only choose a creature that's already on the battlefield.