I wouldn't dedicate more than one card in your sideboard for the mirror, and that card should have overlap elsewhere. That's why I've been such a big fan of SoWaP as a mirror-breaker.
Hey I'm new here, first time posting and all, but have been viewing the page for quite some time. I'm playing close to the 75 of Madea and AntiquatedNotion, but wanted to know why you guys like sword of war and peace. Obviously it's great in the mirror and probably reasonable against miracles, but are there other applications I don't know about?
Against combo decks that need a total mass of spells it represents an extremely quick clock. Even against any control deck that holds a lot of reactive spells it deals a bit of extra damage. The protection from white and red is very relevant facing down removal.
Struggling to find legacy fun recently. Turn 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria every game against reanimator is getting tiresome. I don't think we have any answers for that, either, and siding in Containment Priest + Rest in Peace doesn't do anything until turn 2. By then, they've already done their trick naming white.
(Edit: should I just mulligan until I get a Karakas or scoop? Is there a better strategy here?)
What is your reasoning for Honor over Wilt-Leaf Liege? I imagine the speed is a factor, but you probably don't have a huge army to protect from a sweeper on turn 2, and Thalia pushes the cost pretty close to that of Liege. At the same time, you lose the splash damage against Hymn and Liliana.
I don't think Hymn is that prevalent; you have to have a better answer to Lili than Liege. And Liege dies to more things. Coming down even a turn later is too late in my opinion. I find that I have to protect my board first priority, regardless of how small it is. I want to get an edge on Dread of Night, and will be caught napping against Sulfur Elemental. Then Golgari Charm is probably the most common. Honor has some relevant speed of application against those. Honor can take the place of the creature answer of Liege because Honor keeps creatures on the table, so in a sense it translates as a threat. Putting Vial to 4 basically tosses away a card (Vial itself).
Hey I'm new here, first time posting and all, but have been viewing the page for quite some time. I'm playing close to the 75 of Madea and AntiquatedNotion, but wanted to know why you guys like sword of war and peace. Obviously it's great in the mirror and probably reasonable against miracles, but are there other applications I don't know about?
Though it is ideal in those application (and possibly others) I have not adopted it because I don't think I can run four Equipment, and the first three are indispensable. So, I am accepting a compromise of the other, slower life-gain Equipment.
Struggling to find legacy fun recently. Turn 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria every game against reanimator is getting tiresome. I don't think we have any answers for that, either, and siding in Containment Priest + Rest in Peace doesn't do anything until turn 2. By then, they've already done their trick naming white.
(Edit: should I just mulligan until I get a Karakas or scoop? Is there a better strategy here?)
I have found Reanimator to always be one of the easier matchups. You could run four Karakas -- it's not unreasonable -- then build with Mangara for sure and possible another toss-in Legend such as Brimaz. Tormod's Crypt or Grafdigger's Cage if you are really obsessed, but I find 1x Relic of Progenitus (along with two RIP) to be sufficient unless they get the stone nuts. As is said in another response, Vial is good here, and a flyer with protection. The same dangers (and solutions) are seen against Lands, where I think we're in deeper trouble.
...The only answer to turn 1 inkwell on the play is turn 3 council's judgment and they will have two turns to find the counter. On the draw, you might still stabilize with stoneforge mystic into batterskull.
I have seen it with my own eyes, Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull race Turn 1 Leviathan.
I don't know about the rest of you, but the bane of my existence out of reanimator is Tidespout Tyrant. Karakas doesn't answer it, if they have countermagic for swords to plowshares we are likely never getting established on the board if they can chain a spell or two every turn. I hate that card soo much!
I haven't dropped a single game against Reanimator ever since last year when I played against someone who had 3 Dread of Nights in his sideboard and he managed to draw two. The matchup is legit free as long as the opponent doesn't have the absolute nuts (turn 1 Tidespout Tyrant into 3 counterspells)
There was a lot of D&T at GPLA. My girlfriend played it and started out well at 2-0 but had a big losing streak after. She's still new to the format but had fun.
Is two Pithing Needle the right call nowadays? I also really like Honor of the Pure out of the board against all the dread of night/sulfur elemental effects. Staticaster too. I will have to test that.
@Sparki
Yeah, I really like two Needles. It has great applications against many top decks (Lands, Miracles, the mirror) while also stopping a bunch of the random stuff you will encounter.
Regarding reanimator:
The matchup is pretty easy, but it is certainly losable. A T1 Iona gives us three shots to find Karakas or just be dead. You aren't going to race a turn 1 Inkwell with your Batterksull unless you have the perfects for follow ups and your opponent has stone cold nothing; you are really hoping for a Council's Judgment as your answer.
Regarding SoWaP:
It has become clear that I should just prepare a blurb for this card. It is great against Miracles and the mirror in particular. Against Miracles, it shuts off StP as a potential out, forcing your opponent to find Terminus or bounce with Jace; it also threatens to end the game with a single connection if you get it online early enough. In the mirror, it completely breaks open the board stalls while also allowing you to race most board states. It has applications against many popular decks (Lands for protection, Burn for protection/life gain) while also serving as an extremely swift clock against any combo deck. If you want to run a 4th equipment, SoWaP is likely the best choice due to its versatility.
It seems that you replied to my post but didn't quote but I'll just answer back anyways:
I was playing GW that time iirc, in the end what matters in that matchup are the white cards, and how much sideboard space are you willing to dedicate to cards that hit the matchup well. I usually tend to lean towards wider sideboard cards like RIP and Containment Priest, usually running 3 of the former and 2 of the later, as I feel those cards are too good in too many matchups, and they end up being very efficient sideboard slots, as you cover a lot of ground with few cards. But yeah, in general against Reanimator you want either of them, hopefully with a Karakas in your starting hand.
Cards that matter in Reanimator:
RIP - Stops all GY shenanigans until Decay
Containment Priest - Stops everything until they get rid of it. No reanimation, no SnT, nothing. With a Mom in play it's immune to everything except Massacre.
Revoker - Stops Griseldaddy allowing you to bounce or block him with blinkers/protection.
Flickerwisp/Resto Combo - Either solo Wisp (with Vial) or coupled with Resto to perma blink their creatures. You hardcast Wisp, then block Griselbrand with it and blink with Resto, targeting Resto back. EOT Resto comes back again targeting Wisp, Wisp blinks Resto away until your EOT. In your turn you attack with Wisp, EOT Resto comes back targeting Wisp, blink Griselbrand away until his EOT. If you have another Wisp you can chain them with Resto to keep a Griselbrand away for as many 2-3 turns each iteration, more than plenty of time to close the game with him gaining zero life the whole time. This also works in pretty much every matchup, another notable example being Sneak and Show. You can get very creative with Wisp and Resto if you decide to run her.
Fiend Hunter - He notably survives Elesh Norn and Massacre, making him pretty hard removal only vulnerable to Decay. If you are on the draw and you see the opponent is going to Turn 2 you with something you can EOT discard him off hand size and recover him with an Exhume exiling their creature. Same with Revoker if the target is obviously going to be Griselbrand, no time to react and draw.
Karakas - Obviously. But I have seem people even maindeck Pithing Needle, and always have at least 2 in the sideboard, so it's nice to have in Game 2 but I wouldn't recommend keeping a hand with no other hate postboard.
With my current list (posted a couple pages ago i think) I would side like this: +3 RIP +2 Priest +2 Hunter -1 Jitte -2 SFM -3 Avenger -1 SoFaI
Overall Reanimator is an easy matchup because it allows you to play the deck in creative ways to best the opponent, and the opponent isn't always going to be aware of all the tricks DnT can play on him. But it sometimes requires you to think outside the box, so getting plenty of practice in that matchup is a must. But once you know what kind of hand to keep and how to make the most out of your cards it can be a blast for you (but not for your opponent).
Sorry about not quoting, I'm still rather new to MTG Salvation. Thank you so much for taking the time to write this up; I learned a lot! I run Restoration Angels in my modern D&T, but not legacy (yet). I'll definitely think about including her; I'm just not quite sure what I'd cut. I am in the process of retuning my sideboard at the moment. I'll post my deck list and maybe others can give me more insight!
The issue with the sideboard as it is: I don't think it helps us against our worst matchup (Elves?!) besides Containment Priest and the mainboard Revokers. I was hoping to try to shove a Cursed Totem or something in here, but maybe we don't care enough. I'm not sure I have much game against Eldrazi Aggro, either. I was trying to fit a Magus of the Moat or Fiend Hunter in here to take care of it, but they can Warping Wail either of those to get back on track.
Thanks in advance! Love this thread and the D&T community!
I played in two more GP trials this weekend since I had nothing better to do, and can always use the practice. I went 6-2 overall excluding intentional draws, and made top 8 for both. Prize split and an unfortunate loss in the quarterfinals to 12 Post. But it's cool, because my buddy smashed him the next round with Griselbrand and Tidespout Tyrant.
@esplandes
Your maindeck is fine, and nearly identical to what I've been running. I don't believe that Leyline of Sanctity has any place in the deck. We have to devote too many sideboard slots to it, and when are you really boarding it in? Storm or Burn? We have better tools for those decks. You should never bring this in for decks with Liliana or Jace. You have better ways to handle them. Valakut is largely irrelevant in Legacy. Just the rare NicFit deck. You can cut them for Fiend Hunter to shore up the Eldrazi match a bit.
Don't forget about Canonist for the Elves match. Needle is also not bad. Overall, Elves is a little suppressed in the current meta, and I think it is not worth worrying too much with dedicated slot. Gut Shot is a fine option if you want a little extra game here, and is relevant in some other matchups.
@everyone
I am now a level two judge. Huzzah! That's one more thing off my metaphorical plate.
@esplanades
Don't worry about trying to beat Elves. You are going to lose to them most of the time no matter what you do. Instead, build your deck to beat the rest of the format and leave yourself with the tools to attempt to win the matchup. Between Canonist, Jitte, and Containment Priest, you will steal some games here and there. I'll second antiquatednotion's thought that Leyline is likely not great in this deck.
On the subject of Leyline, that's a card that you really want in your starting hand for it to do pretty much anything, so by definition it should be a 4-of if you run it. But the card is subpar in this deck so the more obvious choice would be to just run zero. Generally cards that you want in your starting hand are all 4-ofs, such as Vial, Mom and Thalia, and they become increasingly worse over time, so the thing to do is to run the maximum possible amount of them in the deck to maximize your chances of having one in your opener. 2 Leylines (or pretty much any such card) is meaningless anyways.
Good points everyone! Thanks. I'm not quite sure what to replace it with, other than up Ethersworn Canonist and Rest in Peace to 3-ofs. Maybe 2 Fiend Hunter, since it can get rid of a few nasty creatures and can sit on the same 3-vial as others and it's good against Eldrazi Aggro.
I would definitely give the Hunters a try. They patch a lot of the deficiencies of the maindeck, such as extra creature removal and more importantly, non CMC1 creature removal for Chalice decks. They're also rpetty bonkers against Grixis Delver, being able to Vial in one during combat and eat a Delver and block kill a Pyromancer for example.
First Strike is boss with Umezawa's Jitte. In the matchups where you presumably board in either (Silver Knight or Kor Firewalker), I don't think the interaction is very relevant. I'm not sure if we have other matchups where a 2/2 pro-R critter with FS provides more value than a 2/2 pro-R critter with Firewalker's lifegain ability, but I'm curious to read suggestions and reasonings
Silver Knight is a Human, so that could be relevant against Delver Burn with Cavern of Souls.
If you want a pro red creature, then either Paladin en-Vec and Fiendslayer Paladin are better options. The problem with Silver Knight is that the double WW makes him awkward to cast at times, so it makes him very reliant on a turn 1 Vial to be effective. Serra Avenger is the only other WW CMC2 creature but she doesn't suffer from the same limitations because she doesn't come down till later, when you usually have deployed at least 2 white sources.
I will add that the lifelink on Fiendslayer Paladin was very relevant for the brief time period that I ran him. I thought he was great vs UR Delver, Burn, Jund and Lands.
@lolsplash
I'd be more willing to play Cavern of Souls in anticipation of Miracles. Eldrazi is likely to put their Chalices on one to shut off Swords to Plowshares in an attempt to end game one early. Cavern really only would push a Mom through in those scenarios, so that's probably not necessary.
(Edit: should I just mulligan until I get a Karakas or scoop? Is there a better strategy here?)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
BG Collected Company Elves
Legacy
W Death and Taxes
EDH
GW Sigarda, Host of Herons
GW Saffi Eriksdotter
I don't think Hymn is that prevalent; you have to have a better answer to Lili than Liege. And Liege dies to more things. Coming down even a turn later is too late in my opinion. I find that I have to protect my board first priority, regardless of how small it is. I want to get an edge on Dread of Night, and will be caught napping against Sulfur Elemental. Then Golgari Charm is probably the most common. Honor has some relevant speed of application against those. Honor can take the place of the creature answer of Liege because Honor keeps creatures on the table, so in a sense it translates as a threat. Putting Vial to 4 basically tosses away a card (Vial itself).
Though it is ideal in those application (and possibly others) I have not adopted it because I don't think I can run four Equipment, and the first three are indispensable. So, I am accepting a compromise of the other, slower life-gain Equipment.
I have found Reanimator to always be one of the easier matchups. You could run four Karakas -- it's not unreasonable -- then build with Mangara for sure and possible another toss-in Legend such as Brimaz. Tormod's Crypt or Grafdigger's Cage if you are really obsessed, but I find 1x Relic of Progenitus (along with two RIP) to be sufficient unless they get the stone nuts. As is said in another response, Vial is good here, and a flyer with protection. The same dangers (and solutions) are seen against Lands, where I think we're in deeper trouble.
I have seen it with my own eyes, Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull race Turn 1 Leviathan.
J
Woah. Didn't know this. Thanks!
(I get that there are still better targets, but this is useful knowledge.)
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Is two Pithing Needle the right call nowadays? I also really like Honor of the Pure out of the board against all the dread of night/sulfur elemental effects. Staticaster too. I will have to test that.
WGURBLands!WGURB
WGUInfectWGU
Legacy Lands Primer
Top 8 SCG Oakland 2014
Helpdesk
My Cube on CubeTutor
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
BG Collected Company Elves
Legacy
W Death and Taxes
EDH
GW Sigarda, Host of Herons
GW Saffi Eriksdotter
She's playing monoW.
WGURBLands!WGURB
WGUInfectWGU
Legacy Lands Primer
Top 8 SCG Oakland 2014
Helpdesk
My Cube on CubeTutor
Yeah, I really like two Needles. It has great applications against many top decks (Lands, Miracles, the mirror) while also stopping a bunch of the random stuff you will encounter.
Regarding reanimator:
The matchup is pretty easy, but it is certainly losable. A T1 Iona gives us three shots to find Karakas or just be dead. You aren't going to race a turn 1 Inkwell with your Batterksull unless you have the perfects for follow ups and your opponent has stone cold nothing; you are really hoping for a Council's Judgment as your answer.
Regarding SoWaP:
It has become clear that I should just prepare a blurb for this card. It is great against Miracles and the mirror in particular. Against Miracles, it shuts off StP as a potential out, forcing your opponent to find Terminus or bounce with Jace; it also threatens to end the game with a single connection if you get it online early enough. In the mirror, it completely breaks open the board stalls while also allowing you to race most board states. It has applications against many popular decks (Lands for protection, Burn for protection/life gain) while also serving as an extremely swift clock against any combo deck. If you want to run a 4th equipment, SoWaP is likely the best choice due to its versatility.
It seems that you replied to my post but didn't quote but I'll just answer back anyways:
I was playing GW that time iirc, in the end what matters in that matchup are the white cards, and how much sideboard space are you willing to dedicate to cards that hit the matchup well. I usually tend to lean towards wider sideboard cards like RIP and Containment Priest, usually running 3 of the former and 2 of the later, as I feel those cards are too good in too many matchups, and they end up being very efficient sideboard slots, as you cover a lot of ground with few cards. But yeah, in general against Reanimator you want either of them, hopefully with a Karakas in your starting hand.
Cards that matter in Reanimator:
RIP - Stops all GY shenanigans until Decay
Containment Priest - Stops everything until they get rid of it. No reanimation, no SnT, nothing. With a Mom in play it's immune to everything except Massacre.
Revoker - Stops Griseldaddy allowing you to bounce or block him with blinkers/protection.
Flickerwisp/Resto Combo - Either solo Wisp (with Vial) or coupled with Resto to perma blink their creatures. You hardcast Wisp, then block Griselbrand with it and blink with Resto, targeting Resto back. EOT Resto comes back again targeting Wisp, Wisp blinks Resto away until your EOT. In your turn you attack with Wisp, EOT Resto comes back targeting Wisp, blink Griselbrand away until his EOT. If you have another Wisp you can chain them with Resto to keep a Griselbrand away for as many 2-3 turns each iteration, more than plenty of time to close the game with him gaining zero life the whole time. This also works in pretty much every matchup, another notable example being Sneak and Show. You can get very creative with Wisp and Resto if you decide to run her.
Fiend Hunter - He notably survives Elesh Norn and Massacre, making him pretty hard removal only vulnerable to Decay. If you are on the draw and you see the opponent is going to Turn 2 you with something you can EOT discard him off hand size and recover him with an Exhume exiling their creature. Same with Revoker if the target is obviously going to be Griselbrand, no time to react and draw.
Karakas - Obviously. But I have seem people even maindeck Pithing Needle, and always have at least 2 in the sideboard, so it's nice to have in Game 2 but I wouldn't recommend keeping a hand with no other hate postboard.
With my current list (posted a couple pages ago i think) I would side like this: +3 RIP +2 Priest +2 Hunter -1 Jitte -2 SFM -3 Avenger -1 SoFaI
Overall Reanimator is an easy matchup because it allows you to play the deck in creative ways to best the opponent, and the opponent isn't always going to be aware of all the tricks DnT can play on him. But it sometimes requires you to think outside the box, so getting plenty of practice in that matchup is a must. But once you know what kind of hand to keep and how to make the most out of your cards it can be a blast for you (but not for your opponent).
3 Karakas
12 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Creatures
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Swords to Plowshares
Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
1 Sword of War and Peace
Reasoning for my sideboards:
Containment Priest -- as stated earlier, great against Show & Tell, Reanimator, Merfolk/D&T with vials
Council's Judgment -- gets rid of True Name Nemesis, unfriendly enchantments/artifacts
Ethersworn Canonist -- Storm (also, would we want to side it in against things like UW Miracles who want to chain a bunch of filtering spells?)
Leyline of Sanctity -- burn, Liliana of the Veil, mill, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
Wilt-Leaf Liege -- Liliana of the Veil, anti-anthems
Pithing Needle -- Sensei's Divining Top, all the planeswalkers, Maze of Ith, tons of others
Rest in Peace -- Reanimator, Tarmogoyf, Snapcaster Mage
Sword of War and Peace -- mirror, burn, lands, miracles
The issue with the sideboard as it is: I don't think it helps us against our worst matchup (Elves?!) besides Containment Priest and the mainboard Revokers. I was hoping to try to shove a Cursed Totem or something in here, but maybe we don't care enough. I'm not sure I have much game against Eldrazi Aggro, either. I was trying to fit a Magus of the Moat or Fiend Hunter in here to take care of it, but they can Warping Wail either of those to get back on track.
Thanks in advance! Love this thread and the D&T community!
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
BG Collected Company Elves
Legacy
W Death and Taxes
EDH
GW Sigarda, Host of Herons
GW Saffi Eriksdotter
@esplandes
Your maindeck is fine, and nearly identical to what I've been running. I don't believe that Leyline of Sanctity has any place in the deck. We have to devote too many sideboard slots to it, and when are you really boarding it in? Storm or Burn? We have better tools for those decks. You should never bring this in for decks with Liliana or Jace. You have better ways to handle them. Valakut is largely irrelevant in Legacy. Just the rare NicFit deck. You can cut them for Fiend Hunter to shore up the Eldrazi match a bit.
Don't forget about Canonist for the Elves match. Needle is also not bad. Overall, Elves is a little suppressed in the current meta, and I think it is not worth worrying too much with dedicated slot. Gut Shot is a fine option if you want a little extra game here, and is relevant in some other matchups.
I am now a level two judge. Huzzah! That's one more thing off my metaphorical plate.
@esplanades
Don't worry about trying to beat Elves. You are going to lose to them most of the time no matter what you do. Instead, build your deck to beat the rest of the format and leave yourself with the tools to attempt to win the matchup. Between Canonist, Jitte, and Containment Priest, you will steal some games here and there. I'll second antiquatednotion's thought that Leyline is likely not great in this deck.
On the subject of Leyline, that's a card that you really want in your starting hand for it to do pretty much anything, so by definition it should be a 4-of if you run it. But the card is subpar in this deck so the more obvious choice would be to just run zero. Generally cards that you want in your starting hand are all 4-ofs, such as Vial, Mom and Thalia, and they become increasingly worse over time, so the thing to do is to run the maximum possible amount of them in the deck to maximize your chances of having one in your opener. 2 Leylines (or pretty much any such card) is meaningless anyways.
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
BG Collected Company Elves
Legacy
W Death and Taxes
EDH
GW Sigarda, Host of Herons
GW Saffi Eriksdotter
Silver Knight is a Human, so that could be relevant against Delver Burn with Cavern of Souls.
Congratulations!!
WDeath and TaxesW
I'd be more willing to play Cavern of Souls in anticipation of Miracles. Eldrazi is likely to put their Chalices on one to shut off Swords to Plowshares in an attempt to end game one early. Cavern really only would push a Mom through in those scenarios, so that's probably not necessary.