When playing postboard against Lands, do you cast RIP ASAP, or let them commit more cards to the yard to get more "value"? I was always playing RIPs as soon as I drew them, and I think my gut feeling to not let them develop at all is correct, but I was occasionally exiling 0 cards (because it was early enough that their yard was entirely empty).
I usually wait for them to have a Loam in their GY before commiting. Is not like in other RIP dependant matchups where they play discard and stuff, so you're allowed to take your time at least for a while.
@Frenadol thanks for the thoughts. How would you sideboard against Jund with my list?
Speaking of Liliana, during the Jund match, with Liliana on the stack I Vialed in Revoker naming Liliana. Tricksy hobbitses!
With your list I'd probably go something like +3 RIP +2 Judgment -1 Thalia -1 Wisp -2 Revoker -1 SoFaI, or all 4 Revokers and the equipment. No WLL hurts a lot, and Fiend Hunter is not all that reliable in the matchup. Wisp is actually okay here because the evasion is huge and it allows you to go aggressive with Batterskull and then reuse it. Much better than Revoker it surely is.
Personally I get rip down as early as possible when they have exploration. When they are just playing 1 land a turn it is likely safe to wait for value and a few key cards to go in the yard.
There was a D&T deck in the top 16 of the Legacy classic this weekend. Link.
There aren't really any unusual cards here, though the exact combination of the deck is a touch odd.
Timofey_Petrov
SoFaI is better than SoWaP against Eldrazi, imo. SoFaI can shoot down Mimics and Matter Reshapers, and the card draw is certainly relevant in the grindy games.
Yes, you are correct about what I wrote about Fiend Hunter.
Cataclysm is pretty good against Shardless, especially if you are playing Flagstones.
There's a series of Legacy tournaments coming up in my city, and I've sleeved up the mono-W, Wg and Wb variants of the deck to test a little. While I've had my fair share of experience with the first two, it's the first time I actually tried out the black splash, and I must say I'm very positively surprised and impressed by it. SwordsToTimeshares's list (nicknamed "Bob from Accouting", which is the best deck name ever, period) seems like a very successful attempt at fixing the mono-W variant's perceived weaknesses - Dark Confidant is the card advantage engine that fits a deck running Æther Vial and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben most naturally, and the ability to preemptively fix problems by means of Thoughtseize (and gain invaluable information in the process) is really, really strong.
Is anyone else still tinkering with this variant, and has some thoughts and secret tech to share?
Is anyone else still tinkering with this variant, and has some thoughts and secret tech to share?
I've finished sleeving it up and I'm very excited to give it a try. For what it's worth, I solitared it out maybe 10 times, and I have to say, it made me even more excited to actually play it, Bob is so broken so it will be nice to finally feel like we're on more of an even keel with the rest of the field of broken ass cards in Legacy.
I don't know that I'll ever completely get away from the mono-white version, it definitely has some inherent strengths that a splash will never have, but I have a good feeling the black splash will be a little more consistent at your average FNM type event since the the mono-white version is such a meta deck, the black version has less cards that are useless against some random decks (ie. Revoker).
Is anyone else still tinkering with this variant, and has some thoughts and secret tech to share?
Haha, just me! I'll hopefully be able to make a Legacy 1K tomorrow, will report back.
If you haven't read the BW Primer, it should be in here as a Google Doc link a page or two back.
Good luck; looking forward to that report!
And thanks for the primer, that actually somehow managed to escape my perception. Very good read indeed; I plan to profit from the knowledge shared tomorrow - will report how I fared.
I've been messing around with a black splash on and off for a couple years now--back when splashing was sacrilegious. I think SwordsToTimeshares is on the right track with his current version. My struggle is trying to decide if we should go up to 2 bitterblossom (1 in the main and 1 in the sb). In those attrition matchups, blossom pulls me way ahead. What's everyone's sbs looking like with a black splash?
Went 3-1 in Swiss at a Columbus GPT in Cedar Rapids, losing to Mentor Miracles, for which my sideboard was weak.
Mulliganed to 4 against Burn in Game 1 of the Quarter-Finals:
7: 0 Land
6: 1 Colorless Land, All White Cards
5: 2 Colorless Land, All White Cards
4: Plains, Port, Thalia, Swords
Almost got there with that 4-card hand, but just didn't have enough business, of course. Subsequently, lost that match.
What do you do in this Game 3 scenario?
Opponent has Eidolon of the Great Revel, and four Mountain, four cards in hand.
You have Thalia, Ethersworn Canonist, Plains, Plains, Rishadan Port. In hand you have Swords, Rishadan Port.
Both players are at 4.
PS, I was sure opp was sandbagging Price of Progress, which he was.
Sideboard:
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Council's Judgment
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Pithing Needle
3 Rest in Peace
1 Sudden Demise
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Phyrexian Revoker
LED Dredge 2-1
G1: Mulled to 5 game 1, didn’t have relevant cards, got mana screwed and conceded.
G2: Kept a hand of RIP, Thalia, Stoneforge, Jitte, Plains, Port and I think Wasteland? Lost RIP to a Therapy, on his turn 1, but top decked a second one like a boss and he scooped.
G3: Notes just say I landed another RIP and won.
Esper Stoneblade 0-2
G1: Died to Jitte on a True-name Nemesis without much of a fight. I drew no tools to deal with either card in a timely manner.
G2: Again died to Jitte. I think in this game I got a Revoker out naming Jitte, but it ate an STP and I didn’t have a Mom.
Miracles 2-1
G1: Landed a turn 1 Vial, and proceeded to Imperial Recruiter for Imperial Recruiter eventually getting some equipment online and taking it home.
G2: He boarded into Mentors, they killed me.
G3: Lived the dream of Recruiter chaining again, but also dropping Pia and Kiran Nalaar, flickering it for value, playing equipment games with Sword of War and Peace on Thopters, and then closing out the game by throwing thopters for lethal after attacking. I could have just flickered a flashed Clique blocker and won a little earlier during a thopter attack… but didn’t see it at the time and was focused on surviving possible Mentor backlash. Won through an active Jace and Mentors.
Big Red: 0-2
G1: He Blood Moons, I put a Revoker on Sneak Attack and put a Magus of the Moon in, by the end of the game we’re up to 3 moon effects in play between us. I play the wrong creature (should have played the Wingmare) and die to Worldspine Wurm instead of keeping him off Through the Breach mana if he drew one more land (he did) and would have allowed me to swing for lethal even over the Worldspine with SoWaP.
G2: Again died to Through the Breach to Emrakul.
ANT: 2-1
G1: Mom + Thalia + 3 Ports, gets there.
G2: Died to Empty the Warrens for 14 goblins after he got 1 Dread of Night out to kill Thalia and shrink a Canonist, then dropped a second one to wipe my 2 Canonist board.
G3: Canonist equipped with SoFaI and a Thalia close it out pretty quick.
Omnitell 0-2
G1: Shows in an Omniscience, best I can do is flicker it for a turn. Die to Emrakul.
G2: Showed in an Omniscience, best I can do is put in Karakas. Released the Ants all over me. Bummer.
I did not have enough hate for Combo decks in that meta. I would strongly consider going to 4 Ethersworn Canonist and possibly even adding in Simian Spirit Guide in some numbers, or using some other variety of hate bears like a Spirit of the Lab, Containment Priest or even an Eidolon of Rhetoric. Needed some more artifact hate to beat equipment against other Stoneforge decks (1 Stoneblade and 5 Death and Taxes decks out of 33 decks yesterday), possibly Relic Warder again since it can get other stuff, though Seal of Cleansing would allow me to go back to an Enlightened Tutor sideboard and perhaps down to 2 RIP again. Pia and Kiran Nalaar was amazing against Miracles, but may be overkill considering how good Recruiter and Cavern of Souls is against them already with SoWaP. Every opponent had to read it multiple times though, which I consider the goal of any good legacy deck. I only brought in Batterskull once, and it was never really useful. I would consider going to 3 Stoneforge and even dropping Batterskull entirely from the 75. RIP was critical, but just because of Dredge. Dying to Dread of Night sucks by the way and I definitely see the rationale behind splashing black and getting Thoughtseize like SwordsToTimeshares has done. He also played there and top 8’d with Bob From Accounting.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy: WRDeath and Taxes UWRMiracles UBTezzerator GTrinity GBWRLoam URLandstill
Modern: WUBValue Titan UMerfolk WGDeath and Taxes
Hey All! Want to know who the worst quarterfinals player in the world is? <<<<<<THIS GUY
Made it to Top 8 at the Fire and Dice 1K yesterday, and lost 1-2 to the same Big Red player that Bosque lost to. I think that's probably a rough matchup. I don't think I touched upon it on my primer, but here was the low down:
It's game 1, I know he's on this deck, and he mulls to 5. I keep a land with only a fetchland, but all the cards are good, and one of them is Thoughtseize so I say, "hey, what the hell, I've got Thoughtseize, I've got Thalia, I've got Revoker, all I need is another land, like a Port or something, and I can keep him off balance enough for the win". I open with Scrubland>>Thoughtseize and see Ancient Tomb, Blood Moon x2, Sandstone Needle, and Simian Spirit Guide. I opt to take Simian so he can't cast any of those Blood M-... oh, he topdecks a Lotus Petal right after. I get my Revoker down and "race" with that to get him to 2 before he draws his sixth "Mountain" and hardcasts Inferno Titan. G2 I'm on the play again, land Vial, land Thalia, land Canonist, GG. G3goes fairly long, and even though he was at over 40 life from a Wurmcoil Engine at one point, I am able to get rid of the Wurm and get a SoFaI-equipped Thalia and a Bob going. But Bob is starting to get me in the danger zone with a lot of "high" CMC reveals - Mystic, Flickerwisp, Serra Avenger. I'm down to 3 and have a Vial 3 with a Wisp in hand, and he's just got land on his board. I can save my Wisp to flicker Bob to ensure I don't kill myself with an extra card, but decide to tap out and cast Batterskull since I'm still 3 turns away from sealing the game with damage at that point. Skull would have made it 2 turns, and also ensured I climb out of the danger zone for life. He immediately draws his needed sixth land again and slams down another hardast Inferno Titan to hit me for exactly 3 life. Gross. I guess I could have kept my mana open in case I needed to Plowshares Bob instead, which would gain me 2 life against the -3 from Titan, but that line of play is also predicated on drawing another Plowshares or a Vindicate next turn, since I'd still need to get rid of the Titan before my opponent untaps with it. Think he just had my number... Anyway this matchup is soo niche I'm not gonna put much thought into it. I think it's still beatable, just not like I tried it.
Got somewhere between 5th and 8th and walked away with double my entry fee in cash. Not a bad day. Ended up meeting a couple of DnT forum readers there: Bosque, and a lurker named Cory, both really nice guys. Matches on the day went like this:
-@forgottenforce, I moved Bitterblossom back to my sideboard for Revoker for playing at Fire & Dice because I know people really love Emrakul at that store, and hey, I was right. I'd say Bitterblossom is better in the main when you're up against a normal share of non-combo decks, which perhaps F&D is not (it's higher than the normal 20-25% I think, anyway). I don't know if you need to have two if you run E. Tutor, but I'd certainly be all ears if you try to get it going every match with 2 in the main.
-I still debate whether I want all 4 Thoughtseize in the main from time to time. I really like just having more early game plays. Still open with Vial a lot of the time, but a turn 2 of "Thoughtseize, Wasteland" or the like, in the absence of Thalia, is batty strong.
-As much as I want to cut Revoker for being a bad card, it still saved my ass a couple times yesterday. I guess It's needed even as a one-of in Bob from Accounting. The archetype the DnT deck shell has makes it so that Revoker is still a better card than I often give it credit for, even though it is on its own, almost objectively bad. However, it just... works. I don't get it, still.
-I can't imagine winning the OmniTell matchup consistently with another version of DnT. I think what's more likely is that Sneak/Show players are also adding Omni to their builds rather than going to straight OmniTell, minus Dig Through Time, but in any case, that matchup was bad for mono-DnT before Dig, got worse so much so that I felt you needed Gaddock Teeg to make that match winnable, but now with Dig banned, the other avenues the deck takes to win makes it that only Thoughtseize can really save you. I totally won that R3 match off the back of multiple discards. Even with Thalia in play, you are on the verge of losing at all times.
-Nothing from yesterday wanted me to make any decklist changes. I'm back to the 1x Revoker in the main, Bitterblossom in the side, and have cut Dismember, since Eldrazi doesn't seem very popular in SoCal. At an large open, I'd probably put Dismember back in, move Bitterblossom to the main, and cut Revoker. It's a tricky call though. There's a comfort in knowing you have 8 slots in the main dedicated to fighting combo instead of just 7.
That scenario is likely unwinnable if the burn player actually has gas left in hand. Just about any two spells would mean that you are dead. Given that you had Thalia and Port in play, the burn player has no reason to hold back basic Mountains; accordingly, their hand is likely full of gas. There are some lines where you win, both most of those involve the burn player having absolute garbage in hand or only sorceries. I've been thinking about lines for quite some time, and I don't even know that I would say there is a line that could be called good. I can't really say for sure what I would do without having a feel for my opponent's hand, sequencing, and mana usage over the last few turns.
STT, I watched your match on stream. You gotta own up to the punts here - he didn't just have your number.
If you had held your mana open, you could have Ported him to keep him off even casting the Titan, held STP up for lifegain + even Flickered a land if you wanted even more disruption + present the same clock as the Batterskull.
The other better reason to hold your mana up was because you had a Thalia in play, so you couldn't actually cast the Batterskull that you did cast.
I haven't played too much these past few weeks because of a bad case of being busy as hell. One thing of note is that I managed to win against a Reanimator on the Legacy side event at the GP last week on a mull to 4 and with a turn 2 Griseldaddy from my opponent. Revoker to prevent him from drawing cards and then Flickerwisp + Resto to nearly perma bounce the Grisel every turn so he couldn't attack. Never saw a Karakas in any of the 2 games of that match (or any sideboard card at all in game 2 where I mulled to 5 too)
I'm testing a Sea Gate Wreckage on my usual list and so far I've been loving it. Much better than Horizon Canopy. Against Miracles you can simply puke your hand onto the board and not even worry about Terminus because you're gonna draw it all back in no time.
What do you do in this Game 3 scenario?
Opponent has Eidolon of the Great Revel, and four Mountain, four cards in hand.
You have Thalia, Ethersworn Canonist, Plains, Plains, Rishadan Port. In hand you have Swords, Rishadan Port.
Both players are at 4.
PS, I was sure opp was sandbagging Price of Progress, which he was.
OPPONENT'S TURN
If he swings with Eidolon, you can:
1) block with Canonist and lose it, which permits him to play two one-costing Sorceries on the spot.
2) block with Thalia, but it lets him unload one one-costing Sorcery, and then a one-costing Instant on your turn.
3) let the 2 through, which then is near-certain death, because he can play any spell and burn you out.
If he hangs back with Eidolon:
1) it seems to show that he doesn't have anything out of the cards in his hand, which is extremely unlikely, and even more unlikely to stay that way. Or,
2) he can't cast his two spells with his four mana, since even with his self-prohibitive Eidolon dead, the swingback will kill him with a spell in hand.
In this scenario, the opponent passed turn without attacking Eidolon into your team. It seems to show he can't afford Eidolon to die. His only out is to draw a Fireblast.
YOUR TURN
You can swing with Thalia. If you do, he can kill his Eidolon, and cast an Instant if he has it, and another spell when it comes back to his turn.
You can swing with EC. If you do, he can kill his Eidolon, and the same two spells will kill you, if he has them.
You can swing with both. If you do, he can:
1) block Thalia, and can play an Instant on your turn, and another spell on his turn to kill you, or
2) block Canonist, and can play the two one-costing Instants, or can play an Instant on your turn, and another spell on his turn to kill you.
You can hold back both. If you do:
1) His only out is to draw a Fireblast, which he can't possibly have already.
2) Your only out is to play a Batterskull. You can only cast it with:
A) Three Plains, or
B) a Wasteland (which can kill Port in response to Price of Progress, so Wasteland has no additional benefit except for setting up for the next scenarios), and Three Plains, or
C) a Wasteland, and two Plains and a Karakas (you can kill the Karakas in response to Price of Progress), or
D) a Wasteland, a Flagstones of Trokair (I run three), and two Plains, or
E) alternating plays of Wasteland, Flagstones, Wasteland, Flagstones, or Plains
In this scenario, I blinked first and swung with Thalia. With his Eidolon no longer restricting him, opponent played a Lightning Bolt on my turn, and a Price of Progress on his upkeep and killed me.
STT, I watched your match on stream. You gotta own up to the punts here - he didn't just have your number.
If you had held your mana open, you could have Ported him to keep him off even casting the Titan, held STP up for lifegain + even Flickered a land if you wanted even more disruption + present the same clock as the Batterskull.
The other better reason to hold your mana up was because you had a Thalia in play, so you couldn't actually cast the Batterskull that you did cast.
Wow, surprised that wasn't caught. I'll admit, it was a long and sorted day, I'd been checking in on a work situation remotely in between rounds. Guess my head wasn't all in it. It also means I made an illegal play on camera and no one thought to stop the game in the commenters booth, nor either of us playing, nor the guy managing the stream. WOW.
Any judges know what should have actually happened here, as clearly EVERYONE in the room wasn't paying attention?
There was about 30 seconds between 'cast Batterskull' and 'lose game', so the commentators didn't even notice, only the chat.
You shouldn't feel too bad though, everyone else in the t8 was making misplays left and right too. When you play with a Griselbrand deck you can get pretty far while making misplays. That said, it's too bad you lost since you had pretty favorable matchups the rest of the way.
Looking back at the board again, right play was either:
- STP Bob, port a tomb + flickerwisp a tomb, port both tombs the rest of the game.
or
- STP Bob, port once + hold up flickerwisp for emergency, port both tombs the rest of the game
Actually I think it's certainly #1, since keeping him off both those tombs + having a Thalia in play + drawing 2 cards a turn + doing 9 damage a turn is reliable and he could do something like play a sol land + Sneak Attack or land + SSG + Sneak Attack on his turn if you let him start next turn w/ 3 mana. You did have an E Tutor so you weren't actually dead to a Sneak Attack, but you'd be wasting your turn responding to it.
His tombs are effectively shut off in two turns anyway since he'd be at 22 - 9 - 9 (assuming lifetotals are correct.) So Flickerwisp + Port and you'd be giving him two turns to do something starting with only a mountain live for mana + a Thalia in play.
Would you take Wreckage over Cavern against Miracles? I've been running a Cavern and it hasn't seemed to be doing much, either positive or negative.
I do run a Cavern in my list, mainly for the Delver matchup. It doesn't do much against Miracles, but sometimes being able to make plays a turn earlier against a Daze deck will give you the edge necessary to get the win, and Cavern shines in that matchup, most of the time I name Angel (or Human if I have a turn 2 Thalia) so I can hardcast a Resto without fear of being countered, and a 3/4 flier in play against pretty much any Delver deck is enough to win.
STP Bob, port a tomb + flickerwisp a tomb, port both tombs the rest of the game.
Yea that's probably the way to go. Only my second time ever seeing that matchup through the lens of DnT, and I guess straight out prevention of casting Inferno was the better play.
Yeah in the future vs that deck, just pressure their manabase constantly and try not to keep a hand that autoloses to Blood Moon. They require a lot of mana to really do anything, and unless they have some super fast combo hand they'll just lose to your average Wasteland/Thalia/Vial hand.
I really want some answers in the sideboard against Eldrazi. But I feel that my SB is very cramped for space atm, I have been thinking lately about going back to
an option I felt was suboptimal the last time i tried it; Tutor board. This allows me to remove some of the tutorable pieces already in the SB, and put in more
Eldrazi hate, while still having answers agains a wide field (upcoming GP). It will also give me a fifth way to find Batterskull in the eldrazi matchup. In addition, I will free up one space in main, by going down to one Sylvan Library.
... I've been running a Cavern and it hasn't seemed to be doing much, either positive or negative.
I do run a Cavern in my list, mainly for the Delver matchup. It doesn't do much against Miracles...
I disagree. Especially in the sideboarded games actually, as Miracles is going to be more reliant on Counterbalance, probably siding out Force of Will, and they will have moved to an even more controlling build.
I really want some answers in the sideboard against Eldrazi...
I am experimenting with an Eight-and-a-Half-Tails in the sideboard. Though it's only a one-of, non-tutorable, so it isn't exactly reliable. But it pulls its weight in other matchups running White, and against slower decks such as Miracles, where you may be able to save three mana to stop one threat per turn against your creature.
To be optimized, you should have four Karakas with it, and possibly a Sword of Light and Shadow, which I think is not unreasonable to include on its own merits. A Sword of War and Peace might be just as juicy or better.
I have been adopting the recommendation of more flyers and Equipment against Eldrazi, but I don't really have enough experience to say my suggestions are any more than spitballing.
I usually wait for them to have a Loam in their GY before commiting. Is not like in other RIP dependant matchups where they play discard and stuff, so you're allowed to take your time at least for a while.
With your list I'd probably go something like +3 RIP +2 Judgment -1 Thalia -1 Wisp -2 Revoker -1 SoFaI, or all 4 Revokers and the equipment. No WLL hurts a lot, and Fiend Hunter is not all that reliable in the matchup. Wisp is actually okay here because the evasion is huge and it allows you to go aggressive with Batterskull and then reuse it. Much better than Revoker it surely is.
There aren't really any unusual cards here, though the exact combination of the deck is a touch odd.
Timofey_Petrov
SoFaI is better than SoWaP against Eldrazi, imo. SoFaI can shoot down Mimics and Matter Reshapers, and the card draw is certainly relevant in the grindy games.
Yes, you are correct about what I wrote about Fiend Hunter.
Cataclysm is pretty good against Shardless, especially if you are playing Flagstones.
Is anyone else still tinkering with this variant, and has some thoughts and secret tech to share?
If you haven't read the BW Primer, it should be in here as a Google Doc link a page or two back.
I've finished sleeving it up and I'm very excited to give it a try. For what it's worth, I solitared it out maybe 10 times, and I have to say, it made me even more excited to actually play it, Bob is so broken so it will be nice to finally feel like we're on more of an even keel with the rest of the field of broken ass cards in Legacy.
I don't know that I'll ever completely get away from the mono-white version, it definitely has some inherent strengths that a splash will never have, but I have a good feeling the black splash will be a little more consistent at your average FNM type event since the the mono-white version is such a meta deck, the black version has less cards that are useless against some random decks (ie. Revoker).
Good luck; looking forward to that report!
And thanks for the primer, that actually somehow managed to escape my perception. Very good read indeed; I plan to profit from the knowledge shared tomorrow
Mulliganed to 4 against Burn in Game 1 of the Quarter-Finals:
7: 0 Land
6: 1 Colorless Land, All White Cards
5: 2 Colorless Land, All White Cards
4: Plains, Port, Thalia, Swords
Almost got there with that 4-card hand, but just didn't have enough business, of course. Subsequently, lost that match.
What do you do in this Game 3 scenario?
Opponent has Eidolon of the Great Revel, and four Mountain, four cards in hand.
You have Thalia, Ethersworn Canonist, Plains, Plains, Rishadan Port. In hand you have Swords, Rishadan Port.
Both players are at 4.
PS, I was sure opp was sandbagging Price of Progress, which he was.
J
4 Flickerwisp
3 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Mangara of Corondor
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Vryn Wingmare
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
3 Plains
2 Plateau
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Council's Judgment
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Pithing Needle
3 Rest in Peace
1 Sudden Demise
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Phyrexian Revoker
LED Dredge 2-1
G1: Mulled to 5 game 1, didn’t have relevant cards, got mana screwed and conceded.
G2: Kept a hand of RIP, Thalia, Stoneforge, Jitte, Plains, Port and I think Wasteland? Lost RIP to a Therapy, on his turn 1, but top decked a second one like a boss and he scooped.
G3: Notes just say I landed another RIP and won.
Esper Stoneblade 0-2
G1: Died to Jitte on a True-name Nemesis without much of a fight. I drew no tools to deal with either card in a timely manner.
G2: Again died to Jitte. I think in this game I got a Revoker out naming Jitte, but it ate an STP and I didn’t have a Mom.
Miracles 2-1
G1: Landed a turn 1 Vial, and proceeded to Imperial Recruiter for Imperial Recruiter eventually getting some equipment online and taking it home.
G2: He boarded into Mentors, they killed me.
G3: Lived the dream of Recruiter chaining again, but also dropping Pia and Kiran Nalaar, flickering it for value, playing equipment games with Sword of War and Peace on Thopters, and then closing out the game by throwing thopters for lethal after attacking. I could have just flickered a flashed Clique blocker and won a little earlier during a thopter attack… but didn’t see it at the time and was focused on surviving possible Mentor backlash. Won through an active Jace and Mentors.
Big Red: 0-2
G1: He Blood Moons, I put a Revoker on Sneak Attack and put a Magus of the Moon in, by the end of the game we’re up to 3 moon effects in play between us. I play the wrong creature (should have played the Wingmare) and die to Worldspine Wurm instead of keeping him off Through the Breach mana if he drew one more land (he did) and would have allowed me to swing for lethal even over the Worldspine with SoWaP.
G2: Again died to Through the Breach to Emrakul.
ANT: 2-1
G1: Mom + Thalia + 3 Ports, gets there.
G2: Died to Empty the Warrens for 14 goblins after he got 1 Dread of Night out to kill Thalia and shrink a Canonist, then dropped a second one to wipe my 2 Canonist board.
G3: Canonist equipped with SoFaI and a Thalia close it out pretty quick.
Omnitell 0-2
G1: Shows in an Omniscience, best I can do is flicker it for a turn. Die to Emrakul.
G2: Showed in an Omniscience, best I can do is put in Karakas. Released the Ants all over me. Bummer.
I did not have enough hate for Combo decks in that meta. I would strongly consider going to 4 Ethersworn Canonist and possibly even adding in Simian Spirit Guide in some numbers, or using some other variety of hate bears like a Spirit of the Lab, Containment Priest or even an Eidolon of Rhetoric. Needed some more artifact hate to beat equipment against other Stoneforge decks (1 Stoneblade and 5 Death and Taxes decks out of 33 decks yesterday), possibly Relic Warder again since it can get other stuff, though Seal of Cleansing would allow me to go back to an Enlightened Tutor sideboard and perhaps down to 2 RIP again. Pia and Kiran Nalaar was amazing against Miracles, but may be overkill considering how good Recruiter and Cavern of Souls is against them already with SoWaP. Every opponent had to read it multiple times though, which I consider the goal of any good legacy deck. I only brought in Batterskull once, and it was never really useful. I would consider going to 3 Stoneforge and even dropping Batterskull entirely from the 75. RIP was critical, but just because of Dredge. Dying to Dread of Night sucks by the way and I definitely see the rationale behind splashing black and getting Thoughtseize like SwordsToTimeshares has done. He also played there and top 8’d with Bob From Accounting.
Modern: WUBValue Titan UMerfolk WGDeath and Taxes
Made it to Top 8 at the Fire and Dice 1K yesterday, and lost 1-2 to the same Big Red player that Bosque lost to. I think that's probably a rough matchup. I don't think I touched upon it on my primer, but here was the low down:
It's game 1, I know he's on this deck, and he mulls to 5. I keep a land with only a fetchland, but all the cards are good, and one of them is Thoughtseize so I say, "hey, what the hell, I've got Thoughtseize, I've got Thalia, I've got Revoker, all I need is another land, like a Port or something, and I can keep him off balance enough for the win". I open with Scrubland>>Thoughtseize and see Ancient Tomb, Blood Moon x2, Sandstone Needle, and Simian Spirit Guide. I opt to take Simian so he can't cast any of those Blood M-... oh, he topdecks a Lotus Petal right after. I get my Revoker down and "race" with that to get him to 2 before he draws his sixth "Mountain" and hardcasts Inferno Titan. G2 I'm on the play again, land Vial, land Thalia, land Canonist, GG. G3goes fairly long, and even though he was at over 40 life from a Wurmcoil Engine at one point, I am able to get rid of the Wurm and get a SoFaI-equipped Thalia and a Bob going. But Bob is starting to get me in the danger zone with a lot of "high" CMC reveals - Mystic, Flickerwisp, Serra Avenger. I'm down to 3 and have a Vial 3 with a Wisp in hand, and he's just got land on his board. I can save my Wisp to flicker Bob to ensure I don't kill myself with an extra card, but decide to tap out and cast Batterskull since I'm still 3 turns away from sealing the game with damage at that point. Skull would have made it 2 turns, and also ensured I climb out of the danger zone for life. He immediately draws his needed sixth land again and slams down another hardast Inferno Titan to hit me for exactly 3 life. Gross. I guess I could have kept my mana open in case I needed to Plowshares Bob instead, which would gain me 2 life against the -3 from Titan, but that line of play is also predicated on drawing another Plowshares or a Vindicate next turn, since I'd still need to get rid of the Titan before my opponent untaps with it. Think he just had my number... Anyway this matchup is soo niche I'm not gonna put much thought into it. I think it's still beatable, just not like I tried it.
Got somewhere between 5th and 8th and walked away with double my entry fee in cash. Not a bad day. Ended up meeting a couple of DnT forum readers there: Bosque, and a lurker named Cory, both really nice guys. Matches on the day went like this:
R1 DnT (Cory): 1-2, 0-1
R2 Grixis Delver: 2-0, 1-1
R3 OmniTell: 2-0, 2-1
R4 5-Color Lands: 2-1, 3-1
R5 Reanimator: 2-0, 4-1
R6 ID: 0-0-3, 4-1-1
Quarters Big Red: 1-2
More about black splash:
-@forgottenforce, I moved Bitterblossom back to my sideboard for Revoker for playing at Fire & Dice because I know people really love Emrakul at that store, and hey, I was right. I'd say Bitterblossom is better in the main when you're up against a normal share of non-combo decks, which perhaps F&D is not (it's higher than the normal 20-25% I think, anyway). I don't know if you need to have two if you run E. Tutor, but I'd certainly be all ears if you try to get it going every match with 2 in the main.
-I still debate whether I want all 4 Thoughtseize in the main from time to time. I really like just having more early game plays. Still open with Vial a lot of the time, but a turn 2 of "Thoughtseize, Wasteland" or the like, in the absence of Thalia, is batty strong.
-As much as I want to cut Revoker for being a bad card, it still saved my ass a couple times yesterday. I guess It's needed even as a one-of in Bob from Accounting. The archetype the DnT deck shell has makes it so that Revoker is still a better card than I often give it credit for, even though it is on its own, almost objectively bad. However, it just... works. I don't get it, still.
-I can't imagine winning the OmniTell matchup consistently with another version of DnT. I think what's more likely is that Sneak/Show players are also adding Omni to their builds rather than going to straight OmniTell, minus Dig Through Time, but in any case, that matchup was bad for mono-DnT before Dig, got worse so much so that I felt you needed Gaddock Teeg to make that match winnable, but now with Dig banned, the other avenues the deck takes to win makes it that only Thoughtseize can really save you. I totally won that R3 match off the back of multiple discards. Even with Thalia in play, you are on the verge of losing at all times.
-Nothing from yesterday wanted me to make any decklist changes. I'm back to the 1x Revoker in the main, Bitterblossom in the side, and have cut Dismember, since Eldrazi doesn't seem very popular in SoCal. At an large open, I'd probably put Dismember back in, move Bitterblossom to the main, and cut Revoker. It's a tricky call though. There's a comfort in knowing you have 8 slots in the main dedicated to fighting combo instead of just 7.
That scenario is likely unwinnable if the burn player actually has gas left in hand. Just about any two spells would mean that you are dead. Given that you had Thalia and Port in play, the burn player has no reason to hold back basic Mountains; accordingly, their hand is likely full of gas. There are some lines where you win, both most of those involve the burn player having absolute garbage in hand or only sorceries. I've been thinking about lines for quite some time, and I don't even know that I would say there is a line that could be called good. I can't really say for sure what I would do without having a feel for my opponent's hand, sequencing, and mana usage over the last few turns.
If you had held your mana open, you could have Ported him to keep him off even casting the Titan, held STP up for lifegain + even Flickered a land if you wanted even more disruption + present the same clock as the Batterskull.
The other better reason to hold your mana up was because you had a Thalia in play, so you couldn't actually cast the Batterskull that you did cast.
I haven't played too much these past few weeks because of a bad case of being busy as hell. One thing of note is that I managed to win against a Reanimator on the Legacy side event at the GP last week on a mull to 4 and with a turn 2 Griseldaddy from my opponent. Revoker to prevent him from drawing cards and then Flickerwisp + Resto to nearly perma bounce the Grisel every turn so he couldn't attack. Never saw a Karakas in any of the 2 games of that match (or any sideboard card at all in game 2 where I mulled to 5 too)
I'm testing a Sea Gate Wreckage on my usual list and so far I've been loving it. Much better than Horizon Canopy. Against Miracles you can simply puke your hand onto the board and not even worry about Terminus because you're gonna draw it all back in no time.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
OPPONENT'S TURN
If he swings with Eidolon, you can:
1) block with Canonist and lose it, which permits him to play two one-costing Sorceries on the spot.
2) block with Thalia, but it lets him unload one one-costing Sorcery, and then a one-costing Instant on your turn.
3) let the 2 through, which then is near-certain death, because he can play any spell and burn you out.
If he hangs back with Eidolon:
1) it seems to show that he doesn't have anything out of the cards in his hand, which is extremely unlikely, and even more unlikely to stay that way. Or,
2) he can't cast his two spells with his four mana, since even with his self-prohibitive Eidolon dead, the swingback will kill him with a spell in hand.
In this scenario, the opponent passed turn without attacking Eidolon into your team. It seems to show he can't afford Eidolon to die. His only out is to draw a Fireblast.
YOUR TURN
You can swing with Thalia. If you do, he can kill his Eidolon, and cast an Instant if he has it, and another spell when it comes back to his turn.
You can swing with EC. If you do, he can kill his Eidolon, and the same two spells will kill you, if he has them.
You can swing with both. If you do, he can:
1) block Thalia, and can play an Instant on your turn, and another spell on his turn to kill you, or
2) block Canonist, and can play the two one-costing Instants, or can play an Instant on your turn, and another spell on his turn to kill you.
You can hold back both. If you do:
1) His only out is to draw a Fireblast, which he can't possibly have already.
2) Your only out is to play a Batterskull. You can only cast it with:
A) Three Plains, or
B) a Wasteland (which can kill Port in response to Price of Progress, so Wasteland has no additional benefit except for setting up for the next scenarios), and Three Plains, or
C) a Wasteland, and two Plains and a Karakas (you can kill the Karakas in response to Price of Progress), or
D) a Wasteland, a Flagstones of Trokair (I run three), and two Plains, or
E) alternating plays of Wasteland, Flagstones, Wasteland, Flagstones, or Plains
In this scenario, I blinked first and swung with Thalia. With his Eidolon no longer restricting him, opponent played a Lightning Bolt on my turn, and a Price of Progress on his upkeep and killed me.
J
Any judges know what should have actually happened here, as clearly EVERYONE in the room wasn't paying attention?
You shouldn't feel too bad though, everyone else in the t8 was making misplays left and right too. When you play with a Griselbrand deck you can get pretty far while making misplays. That said, it's too bad you lost since you had pretty favorable matchups the rest of the way.
https://www.twitch.tv/fadgames/v/62430911
Looking back at the board again, right play was either:
- STP Bob, port a tomb + flickerwisp a tomb, port both tombs the rest of the game.
or
- STP Bob, port once + hold up flickerwisp for emergency, port both tombs the rest of the game
Actually I think it's certainly #1, since keeping him off both those tombs + having a Thalia in play + drawing 2 cards a turn + doing 9 damage a turn is reliable and he could do something like play a sol land + Sneak Attack or land + SSG + Sneak Attack on his turn if you let him start next turn w/ 3 mana. You did have an E Tutor so you weren't actually dead to a Sneak Attack, but you'd be wasting your turn responding to it.
His tombs are effectively shut off in two turns anyway since he'd be at 22 - 9 - 9 (assuming lifetotals are correct.) So Flickerwisp + Port and you'd be giving him two turns to do something starting with only a mountain live for mana + a Thalia in play.
I do run a Cavern in my list, mainly for the Delver matchup. It doesn't do much against Miracles, but sometimes being able to make plays a turn earlier against a Daze deck will give you the edge necessary to get the win, and Cavern shines in that matchup, most of the time I name Angel (or Human if I have a turn 2 Thalia) so I can hardcast a Resto without fear of being countered, and a 3/4 flier in play against pretty much any Delver deck is enough to win.
an option I felt was suboptimal the last time i tried it; Tutor board. This allows me to remove some of the tutorable pieces already in the SB, and put in more
Eldrazi hate, while still having answers agains a wide field (upcoming GP). It will also give me a fifth way to find Batterskull in the eldrazi matchup. In addition, I will free up one space in main, by going down to one Sylvan Library.
My SB would then look something like this:
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Choke
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Absolute Law
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Pithing Needle
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Containment Priest
1 Fiend Hunter
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
Thoughts?
I disagree. Especially in the sideboarded games actually, as Miracles is going to be more reliant on Counterbalance, probably siding out Force of Will, and they will have moved to an even more controlling build.
I am experimenting with an Eight-and-a-Half-Tails in the sideboard. Though it's only a one-of, non-tutorable, so it isn't exactly reliable. But it pulls its weight in other matchups running White, and against slower decks such as Miracles, where you may be able to save three mana to stop one threat per turn against your creature.
To be optimized, you should have four Karakas with it, and possibly a Sword of Light and Shadow, which I think is not unreasonable to include on its own merits. A Sword of War and Peace might be just as juicy or better.
I have been adopting the recommendation of more flyers and Equipment against Eldrazi, but I don't really have enough experience to say my suggestions are any more than spitballing.
J