@redtwister
Sea Gate Wreckage is great in the matchups that are true slugfests. In matchups like Miracles, Grixis Control, and green midrange decks like Maverick or Jund, Sea Gate Wreckage is absurdly strong. Against your combo decks and tempo decks, Horizon Canopy will be much stronger and puts less strain on the manabase. I 3-0'd game night last night with a Restoration Angel build with Sea Gate Wreckage, but I'm still in the "gathering data" stage. I'll post more results as I have them.
Your list seems fine, there are some thing I don't like. I don't like tidehallow sculler much in our deck because he's kinda just a bear. The deal with Death and Taxes is that it doesn't care about its opponent's hand, it really just cares that it can deal with what the opponent can throw at it, REGARDLESS OF WHERE THAT CARD IS (In deck, graveyard, hand, battlefield)
If you're expecting grixis and the mirror I would just load up on like 2 maindeck pontiffs instead of sculler and a 3rd sideboard with a warping wail or two in there as well (good against shardless, the mirror, ANT. This card also helps vs show and tell as I see you have dropped some MD show and tell hate in order to play more into the fair matchups. )
Avenger is pretty solid card. Play her. Especially if you're expecting Delver decks and the mirror. She is pretty unfair.
Modern: Modern is Bad
Legacy:WDeath and TaxesW W45-L16-D11 8 Top 8s 15th Scg Oakland
Current Kiln Fiend Count: 153 Please message me if you want to trade me or give me some.
Commission Rezombied to alter some cards, he's awesome!
In a fairness sculler is possibly one of the best things we can drop vs show and tell. Even if they are on the sneak attack plan. Using vial you can instant speed take the creature they were going to drop in. It also helps where karakas fails vs sneak attack when they have multiple red sources. They activate sneak attack, you put in sculler, they activate again, you use karakas to bounce then just take the creature with sculler once that trigger resolves. Vs miracles it can take terminus and entreat in response to the trigger. Vs shardless it can take a toxic deluge which is often one of the real hosers they have for us. I'm not saying it's the best option in bw, but it is certainly viable and is relevant in many of the match ups you are considering his list has made him weak against.
Disagree entirely. Against show and tell we want to force them to drop something down against us and deal with it from there. Sculler only deals with what's in their hand. All of our other hate cards hate out their deck regardless of the zone that something is present in. Sculler is literally just a "I hope you don't have sneak attack or multiple creatures in hand".
Sculler's uses are vague/undefined (you "improvise" with how it is used because the card becomes worse as the board-state progresses.) Cards in the main deck should never be about the value they generate (especially temporary value like that of sculler's), but rather the problems it addresses in any gamestate: even if the card is addressing the problem with more redundancy
Personally, whenever I make a list I never EVER EVER think about "wow, I can't wait to cast this turn 2 for all of this value", but rather I react accordingly to possible future gamestates and the volatile nature of the hand, deck, board, and graveyard in the format. I understand my opponent can draw three cards and find lightning bolt, getting back their forked bolt. I understand that topdeck sculler mid-to-late game is basically dead in grindy matchups. Cards like thalia, revoker, mom, avenger, mangara are never dead. EVER.
Basically, don't play sculler. It's really. REALLY. REALLY bad. There's also a reason the mono-white version of the deck has consistently been the best version for 8 or so years, but I don't want to get into that because for some reason people think they can improve the deck by weakening a resilient basic-heavy manabase with strong creature synergies by adding things that don't fit the overall goal of the deck
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Modern: Modern is Bad
Legacy:WDeath and TaxesW W45-L16-D11 8 Top 8s 15th Scg Oakland
Current Kiln Fiend Count: 153 Please message me if you want to trade me or give me some.
Commission Rezombied to alter some cards, he's awesome!
That's fine if you don't agree. Tide hollow is likely not the best addition but I used to play deadguy that was spell heavy and I had a list similar to swords to timeshares dark and taxes list and I can speak from experience that it's perfectly fine in the sneak and show match up and works well vs other combo as well as fair decks. Even if it blanks 1 removal spell just to eat another it's still mana your opponent is using to answer a sculler rather than kill you.
Played a local legacy event with 19 players today, my first time playing legacy competitively ever, only ever played a few proxied up games among friends.
Basically played Madea's standard aggro type build:
Started off hot, 2-0, then fell to 2-3.
Match 1, Burn. 2-1
Game one he ran out of gas and I ground it out, game 2 he was too fast. Game 3 a turn 2 Absolute Law followed by a few random dudes sealed the game easily, he couldn't get enough burn through to my face through Thalia.
Match 2, Miracles. 2-1
Game one I keep him off of mana and grind him away, fought through a Terminus without too much trouble.
Game 2 a double Aether Vial Hand loses to a double Wear//Tear hand. He also had StP, and 2 Snapcaster Mage to flash them back which I couldn't get through anything and eventually got Counter/Top locked.
Game 3 T1 Aether vial into double port keeps him off Jace and Terminus as I bash in with dudes. At one point he cast Wear//Tear on my Pithing Needle which was on Top. I Flickerwisp my Phyrexian Revoker which had proactively named Jace, re-name it to Top. It felt so dirty and he never recovered from that. I really like this match-up for us, it honestly didn't feel that tough, and it's nice to feel that way against the "best" deck in the format.
Match 3, Turbo-DarkDepths?? 0-2
G1 I mulled to 3...my opener was a 1 lander no AEther Vial, then I literally didn't see a single land in my mulligans until I got to 3. Regardless, I basically sat there and watched as he went T2 Vampire Hexmage T3 Dark Depths, sac Hexmage make a Marit Lage token...
G2 I literally have no idea what I'm up against or what to board in. I blindly Pithing Needle Hexmage which slows him down until T5 when he has eventually hasThespian's Stage
I don't see 1 Karakus or Wasteland in either game. He said it's kind of a homebrew, the closest I could find to it after coming home and scouring the internet is this. http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=63421
He said that DnT is actually a tougher matchup because of MD Karakus, and I feel like it actually wouldn't be that tough to play against again with some better luck, but I'll give the guy credit he went on to be 5-0.
Match 4. Colorless Eldrazi 0-2
Holy *****. I got run over, it wasn't even funny. Basically both games were something like T1 Eldrazi Mimic, T2 Thought-Knot Seer snag my removal, bash for 4. T3 Reality Smasher bash for 14. Warping Wail kills all of our early creatures and Mom is useless for blocking. This deck could be the real deal, having access to an entire deck of 2 colorless producing lands in Legacy + all of the new dudes that got printed seems pretty silly. Blue decks will likely keep it in check, but if it ends up being popular it could be a nuisance for DnT players.
Match 5, win and in to the top8. B/R Faithless Reanimator. 1-2
G1 he went Turn 1 Grave Titan on the play, that ended quickly, loss.
Game 2 he mulled and kept a mana light hand and T2 Thalia and a Wasteland basically put it out of reach, win.
G3 he started off a little slower, but still landed a T3 Grave Titan. I start Vialing in Serra Avenger and 2 Mirran Crusaders but I just couldn't stabilize fast enough and he attacks for exactly lethal with tokens the turn after I am finally able to double block and kill Grave Titan with Crusaders. I would have alpha striked him next turn. I missed one open attack with Serra Avenger which cost me the game as I could have alpha striked a turn earlier.
I never saw my E-Tutor, Rest In Peace, Containment Priests in either of the 2 sideboard games, which sucked, but ultimately I lost the game by a major misplay of missing an open attack.
Pretty happy with my first time playing Legacy competitively, and very proud of beating a decent Miracle's player, feel pretty dumb to have missed top8 over not attacking with a vigilance flier, but excited to back playing magic and love playing DnT already. A huge thanks to the regular contributors here, without your help I wouldnt have won a single game let alone 2 matches, and I hope I can contribute to the cause going forward.
For what it's worth regarding Tidehollow Sculler, as an advocate of BW Taxes, I don't like it because Thoughtseize solves the main problem I wanted to fix, which was for more turn 1 plays against combo - and in general - and also, the gains made from information. Sculler only gets you one of those, and is also fragile, enabling the opponent to get his card back. So you can't even be aggressive with it. The play line of turn 1, Thoughtseize, then turn 2, Thalia/Bob/Mystic is very strong. On that note, I have a tournament report for BW Taxes from just today. 29 players at Fire and Dice:
R1 Infect - Game 1 I had Bob - which possibly doesn't even qualify as a "risk" against the deck most of the time - and plenty of Plowshares. Game 2 I got double-Orzhoz Pontiff blowout off the back of another Bob.
2-0, 1-0.
R2 Junk Loam w/ Punishing Grove - This was basically Tom Keating's deck that won that last SCG of the year. Game 1 I got a Mom-protected Mystic>>Batterskull into play. Game 2 I landed a turn 2 Bitterblossom and he never caught up.
2-0, 2-0.
R3 Pox - Game 1 the Vial I land on turn 1 lefts me play around his Dark Rit>>Turn 1 Liliana, and I get Bob into play, letting me get ahead of his attrition. Game 2 I got Bitterblossom early. Most of his stuff is "sacrifice one creature" so he can't catch up.
2-0, 3-0
R4 Elves - I elect to play this one because I am uncertain if I can double-draw into Top 8. I probably could have, but wanted to try to get to an easy 13 points. Instead I matchup against Elves, have to mulligan to a mediocre 5 in game 1, and lose. Game 2, I am able to get an early Jitte and Containment Priest online. He ends up using all 4 of his Glimpses but can't catchup. Game 3, I just get run over early as Elves is wont to do. Bad choice I guess.
1-2, 3-1
R5 Merfolk - This one got broadcast here. It's at the 03:57:47 mark. They were very good games that exemplify the kind of raw advantage you can get out of black. Even though I missed a Bob trigger in game 1, the rest of them got me through it.
2-0, 4-1
Since my opponent was forced to play this didn't come up, but I was prepared to possibly play R5 even if I could draw into top 8 at 3-1-1, because I would have been 8th seed matching up against my R4 Undefeated Elves opponent if I drew in, which would likely be a fate avoided if I were the 2nd overall seed going in. So playing was a good call...
But I matched up against another Elves opponent in the quarterfinals and was promptly crushed on another bad game 1 mulligan to 5, then crushed again in game 2 with a hardcast Craterhoof through double Containment Priest. Should net me 5th or 6th and a nice dual land after all's said and done. Onward with the streak of really bad QF matchups.
Bob and Pontiff were my MVP cards today, no doubt about it. I can't imagine it was a meta for Sculler, because Thoughtseize wasn't even exceptional today since I never matched up against any of the pure combo in the room, which included a couple ANTs, Dredge, I believe a Reanimator, and a HIVE MIND deck. Blast from the past. That gent was still in Top 8 battling it out when I left. Very good day with the deck overall, though I would have liked to draw Pontiff once against either Elves decks, but what can ya do...
Oh, that was you? I happened to watch that today. That Pontiff against Merfolk was hilarious. It was nice, because I'm currently constructing D&T right now for my girlfriend to play so it was good for her to watch and learn. Nice job!
and splashing for just 4 Bobs just isn't worth it.
This is wrong. Bob is the best creature in the deck. This is the card you are splashing for; the rest of the black cards do some heavy hitting at times, but Confidant is the key, and was the deciding factor in most of my wins yesterday. Ad nauseam on the mana consistency argument... with any splash, I just do not have mana problems. What is your landbase?
Also, I didn't say that discard isn't useful, I said they weren't game deciding for what I played against. That can easily change if there were more rounds, or if I just matched up differently.
I think your manabase is the issue. You only have 8 true black sources. I think you need 10: 6 fetches, 4 Scrubland. Cavern is cute and all - and yes, B/W does run a lot of Humans - but I started at 9 and found 10 is what it needed to be consistent.
It seems soft to Lands, but it is very fast and Warping Wail is better in that deck that in ours. It brutalizes Miracles because it makes Counterbalance look really bad and it plays 4 Chalice of the Void, which it can play on 1 immediately, leaving FoW as the only out. Also very bad for Elves.
I'm not sure I want to warp my deck to accommodate it, but I think it will also be present in enough quantity to have to be prepared for.
I'm not suggesting it isn't beatable, but it's kind of MUD-like, but bigger and artifact hate is largely useless against it except for hitting their Chalice.
I haven't seen the Eldrazi deck in action yet, but I imagine they'll end up with one, maybe two threats on board, and you're supposed to deal with that in a way that (preferably) isn't a sorcery. Oblivion Ring could be an option. Retribution of the Meek could act as a valid Sorcery-type solution for all fat-related problems. Meekstone, maybe?
Wouldn't worry about Eldrazi too much. It isn't as favorable as MUD because Eldrazi functions as more of an aggro deck than a ramp deck, but we have the tools to fight it. Like other prison-stompy decks, all you have to do is survive the first few turns and beat them down in the air and with equipment while locking them down with Port/Wasteland. Flickerwisp takes care of Endless One and Chalice, Thalia-Karakas blocks beaters for days, and Mangara is a repeatable removal spell they can't kill. If you're concerned about the matchup, cut Wingmare's and add more Serra Avenger. The biggest concern is Thought-Knot Seer because we can't protect our hand, but that's it. Just make sure to cut Mother of Runes post-board.
Death and taxes actually can deal very easily with those pesky Eldrazi decks. Resource denial is key, treat them the same as MUD, keep hands with Wasteland/Port and a Vial and just don't let them go over 4 mana.
DnT vs. Eldrazi Assessment
Firstly, I’m not overly worried about overdoing the sideboard for Eldrazi because we don’t have much in the side as it is.
Secondly, I think, unlike Modern, Eldrazi.dec might be a healthy shake-up for Legacy. Decks will have to figure out how to adjust. I don't think the ones hurt most by the deck figure it out in time for Philadelphia.
Thirdly, I do not think this is as bad as, say, Elves. It is still (kind of) a fair deck with little deck manipulation, and susceptible to poor draws because they are, in the end, an overpowered Timmy deck. Yes, it can have a nut starting hand, but it can’t combo off into a win and it lacks search. Sometimes they don’t have a turn 1 or turn 2 creatures, which isn’t our problem, most games. Equipment is huge, though sadly Warping Wail is well-suited to killing Stoneforge Mystic. Mana denial is huge, keeping in mind they also run Wasteland because, why not? But if they are trying to Wasteland us, it is slowing them down. Do NOT waste Ancient Tomb unless it completely takes them off mana. They have to place big dummies, so let them kill themselves. It helps us race. Try to avoid x/1 creatures post board. Ethersworn Canonist is way better than Thalia, Guardian of thraben because they want to play more than one spell, especially creatures, each turn. Slow them down and take away Warping Wail as removal. Sorceries aren’t very good, but Mangara and some equipment are good.
Sideboard
Thalia and Mom come out games 2 and 3. 2 Canonist (slow them down), 2 Mangara (everything removal), O-Ring/Fiend hunter (general creature removal), Manriki-Gusari (they run Jitte), Ratchet Bomb (on 0 for Chalice, Endless One) come in. Keep 1 Mom for Dismember.
Council’s Judgment is actively mediocre against a deck that can and does run 4 Warping Wail and it is very expensive. Oblivion Ring is actually better and the Flickerwisp tricks are relevant. You might want to review that part of the Primer.
Moat is too slow. Great choice for Miracles players, though. hin, hint: if you want to beat Eldrazi and you play Miracles, play Moat...
Ensnaring Bridge stops us from attacking, and we really need to get through them before they get Endbringer online. If you haven’t died from that card yet, it is very, very annoying since it untaps on every upkeep.
Cataclysm hurts us more than them because their lone creature is probably better than ours and they run several artifacts, most importantly Jitte and Revoker, which also hurt us. Plus they often are stuck with an Eye of Ugin in hand, which they can now play.
tnehlig suggested Retribution of the Meek, which is okay. I wish I knew what other deck we used it against…
Ratchet Bomb on 0 destroys Chalice of the Void and Endless One, but not much else aside from us.
Path to Exile probably doesn’t get them a land, I don’t think they run basics in the Legacy build, which is why Blood Moon early is very good against them. However, Chalice on 1 is still a problem.
Mangara of Corondor dies to Warping Wail and is slow, but it is repeatable removal that ignores Reality Smasher’s self-protection. It also gets Chalice off the board and exiles lands.
Ghostly Prison seems okay, but it probably only slows them to one attack a turn rather than stopping them.
OMG, they’re gonna make me run Godsend, aren’t they? If the equip was one less, I would say this card is bonkers against them when equipped to Serra Avenger.
If players are expecting Eldrazi, then based on how the deck plays out…
- Miracles, Elves, Storm and possibly Sneak n Show are significantly worse thanks to a combination of Cavern, Chalice, Wail, and sheer speed. Miracles will need Moat and then the match improves. Plus a 2cmc way to kill Chalice.
- If they run Relic of Progenitus, which I believe is a 4-of in their sideboard, with the Chalices, Reanimator and Dredge are also in a lot of trouble.
- Burn seems soft, thanks to Chalice. Without Chalice, maybe. Eidolon hurts burn more than Eldrazi. After turn 1, they probably can’t attack with creatures and have to send burn to the face, but Eldrazi reliance on Ancient Tomb helps Burn out, so they can put themselves within kill range quickly. They also can’t afford to stumble against Burn.
- It’s pretty bad for BUG, Grixis, and 4 Color and RUG Delver and Shardless BUG because their removal looks pretty bad and their creatures don’t match up to 5/5 Haste, Trample on turns 2/3. Plus chalice on 1 is, once again, super effective.
- Jund seems to have a game that goes from mediocre to outright bad. Hurting themselves with Bob and mostly irrelevant removal.
- Stoneblade and Deathblade look mediocre because they can’t race and trample goes right through TNN, but a TNN with equipment is good if Eldrazi stumble.
- Infect has to not allow Eldrazi to resolve Chalice. If they do, then Eldrazi have removal for their creatures and can race. Since Infect uses it’s counterspells for tempo, not to stop creatures from being played, Cavern doesn’t help Eldrazi here.
- Merfolk has an average match in the absence of Islandwalk. It does have TNN and Phantasmal image, plus Meerow Reejerey to tap blockers, but if they don’t hit those, they can’t stonewall, either. A couple of lords turn a TNN with Jitte into a nightmare. 45/55 or 50/50.
- Dragon Stompy, a deck that does not impress me at all, should benefit from turn 1 Blood Moon/ Magus of the Moon and be a huge pain for Eldrazi using their own tricks. Plus 3 Ensnaring Bridge. It’s basically a prison deck with a way to finish.
- MUD is a toss up. Probably strong? Blightsteel Colossus and Wurmcoil Engine look real good, but not as fast. The longer the game goes, the better MUD’s chances.
- Lands seems strong against them because they play on the wrong angles for Eldrazi.
- Painter should demolish them. I’m expecting a lot of Painter’s Servant.
- I have no sense of how Goblins does. Can they go wide fast enough?
I expect decks with Blood Moon, which is fine for us. Thanks for wasting your slots against us.
If I had to make a guess, if people are hedging against being surprised like the Modern PT was, then I expect the following strategies:
- Merfolk from those trying to race with evasion
- Painter from combo
- MUD as a kind of direct frontal attack (sheer power versus sheer power)
- Lands from control
The biggest losers are probably many of the most popular decks in the meta: Miracles, Elves, Storm, Reanimator, Dredge, Delver, Burn, Jund, Show and Tell. Still, I expect combo decks trying to race them for the turn 2 kill, or at least getting out something that they can’t cope with (Griselbrand, Emrakul). Plus, people will play what they have and Storm, Reanimator and Sneak n Show are 21% of the meta and rising.
If this is right, we are better positioned than the biggest losers, maybe close to Merfolk or Dragon Stompy, but not better than 50/50. Mostly that is because Chalice on 0 or 1 does not ruin us, but a lot of decks fold to a deck that can do that and then kill you 2-4 turns later with big, aggressive creatures. That combination of lock-out plus aggression is very effective.
Thoughts? Alternative assessments? Philadelphia is going to be interesting. Or terrible.
Bonus Question: Modern Pro Tour even more boring than the 50th Super Bowl? Vote now!
Thank you for your post @redtwister. It puts things into perspective. There was an Eldrazi player last weekend at an event I played. It looked quite terrifying. There simply are not enough Swords to Plowshares to go around! Reality Smasher makes me super nervous. I like your assessment of brining in Oblivion Rings. I think that enchantments are going to be one of the keys to defeating them. Worship, for example, seems like it would be an auto-win if we can stick it. Condemn comes to mind. Journey to Nowhere. Circle of Solace is dirty but very slow.
How many people usually go to Legacy SCG Opens? How many people are expected to go to this one? What percentage of those do we think will have Eldrazi.dec built in time? So many questions.
Opens on the East Coast are typically quite large. 500-800. I know a lot of people in Baltimore brewing Eldrazi for Legacy, 3 in my local meta alone, not including the other 5-6 shops in the immediate vicinity. I expect it will be a surprisingly large part of the meta at this event. The transition from Modern to Legacy isn't cheap (City of Traitors and Ancient Tomb are not cheap), but if you own the Modern deck, it isn't that bad. Novelty could lead it to be 10% of the meta and a way for Modern players to get into Legacy (that is happening here, for sure.)
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Standard
Tempo Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Two weeks ago I piloted BW Taxes against my friend's build of colorless Eldrazi which plays mana rocks in addition to the Sol Lands. There was no amount of mana denial that could keep it down. 3 Waste + 1 Port barely made a dent. I think I won 1 of 5 games. It was absolutely brutal. The best hope was early fliers with equipment. Perhaps Ensnaring Bridge could steal a win if they don't run/draw Endbringer. The point to test is whether the potential sideboard cards make enough of a difference to swing the matchup or whether we're better off praying to dodge it.
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"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
Speaking of Retribution of the Meek, looks like it got bought out on TCG Player last night, copies went from around $3 to just shy of $10. I guess either someone's planning on facing a lot of Eldrazi, or speculating hard that it's a card people are going to want. I didn't even realize it's a Reserved List card.
It does hit Tasigur, Gurmag Angler, mid-to-late-game Tarmogoyfs (aka, everything in BUG Delver that isn't Delver or Deathrite), TNN after a single Merfolk lord, most non-indestructible Eldrazi, most Reanimator and Show and Tell targets, Sigarda, Prime Time, about half of MUD's creatures, almost always Knight of the Reliquery, our Batterskull'd Germ token...
It's absolutely useless against Burn, Goblins, Infect, Elves, most non-BUG Delver variants (and obviously any creatureless decks) though.
I guess if you're expecting Eldrazi and/or lots and lots of fatties, it's an option. Doesn't really shore up our bad matches (Infect and Elves) though.
Two weeks ago I piloted BW Taxes against my friend's build of colorless Eldrazi which plays mana rocks in addition to the Sol Lands. There was no amount of mana denial that could keep it down. 3 Waste + 1 Port barely made a dent. I think I won 1 of 5 games. It was absolutely brutal. The best hope was early fliers with equipment. Perhaps Ensnaring Bridge could steal a win if they don't run/draw Endbringer. The point to test is whether the potential sideboard cards make enough of a difference to swing the matchup or whether we're better off praying to dodge it.
I, too, will echo is is challenging. I've played two matches against them with BW now, 3-3 total in games. First match I lost 1-2, second I won, 2-1. No game was easy. The games I won were close, and only 1 of the games I lost were close. The match I won had a lot of flipped Plowshares via Bob, so yea, you need card advantage up the ass to get our meager playset of Plowshares. Vindicate comes in pretty handy here, and I used Bitterblossom to stall and then eventually overwhelm at once point, but I only run singletons of those, so perhaps I even got lucky "tying" against the deck. Definitely something to watch out for.
Or just play Moat out of the side. Always an option, albeit expensive.
I, too, will echo is is challenging. I've played two matches against them with BW now, 3-3 total in games. First match I lost 1-2, second I won, 2-1. No game was easy. The games I won were close, and only 1 of the games I lost were close. The match I won had a lot of flipped Plowshares via Bob, so yea, you need card advantage up the ass to get our meager playset of Plowshares. Vindicate comes in pretty handy here, and I used Bitterblossom to stall and then eventually overwhelm at once point, but I only run singletons of those, so perhaps I even got lucky "tying" against the deck. Definitely something to watch out for.
Or just play Moat out of the side. Always an option, albeit expensive.
I've always been looking for a reason to buy a Moat
Could you post your updated list and sideboard?
I've still only had the chance to test three matchups with BW Taxes: Mana-Rock Eldrazi, RUG Delver, and Shardless Pox. To be honest, none of them have been pretty. A decision that came up frequently in the latter two was whether to expose a Scrubland in the early game. Despite trying to protect them where possible, I frequently had issues getting WW for Serra Avenger or Flickerwisp because of opposing Wastelands, Stifles, Smallpoxes, and Sinkholes. I hope to get the chance to test against other decks.
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"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
I decided to test out SwordsToTimeshares BW build on cockatrice this evening. My only changes were -1 revoker +1 avenger main and adding a ensnaring bridge to the SB. I've been opposed to splashing any color in D&T for awhile now. I dabbled with the green splash before and top 4'd a local event with it but overall I wasn't impressed because I thought it was too inconsistent. Simply put, it made some matchups better but many other worse. That said, my initial impression of the black splash was very positive. Having access to thoughtseize is awesome. Just the info alone on how to map out a game plan feels like cheating. Then dark confidant... the card is really good in this deck. I'd encourage others to test it out. I was skeptical, but now I'm checking out the best prices on scrublands...
Things to note: 24 lands with one wreckage. It may become a second instead of the ghost quarter, but I like the extra wasteland effect against most decks as they generally grab their basics first in games 2 and 3.
Batterskull may go to side or Sword of War and Peace might be put in there due to the flying and life gain because I like War and Peace in my meta with Crusader, but I don't know the value if I don't have Crusader.
I can't decide if I want Moat or Magus because both have upsides and downsides. I don't see much Bolt, so I think I prefer Magus. Enlightened tutor is a nice interaction though... I will post results! So far in my testing, It is doing well. It is helping in the Jund match greatly.
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Sea Gate Wreckage is great in the matchups that are true slugfests. In matchups like Miracles, Grixis Control, and green midrange decks like Maverick or Jund, Sea Gate Wreckage is absurdly strong. Against your combo decks and tempo decks, Horizon Canopy will be much stronger and puts less strain on the manabase. I 3-0'd game night last night with a Restoration Angel build with Sea Gate Wreckage, but I'm still in the "gathering data" stage. I'll post more results as I have them.
If you're expecting grixis and the mirror I would just load up on like 2 maindeck pontiffs instead of sculler and a 3rd sideboard with a warping wail or two in there as well (good against shardless, the mirror, ANT. This card also helps vs show and tell as I see you have dropped some MD show and tell hate in order to play more into the fair matchups. )
Avenger is pretty solid card. Play her. Especially if you're expecting Delver decks and the mirror. She is pretty unfair.
Legacy:WDeath and TaxesW W45-L16-D11 8 Top 8s 15th Scg Oakland
Current Kiln Fiend Count: 153 Please message me if you want to trade me or give me some.
Commission Rezombied to alter some cards, he's awesome!
Sculler's uses are vague/undefined (you "improvise" with how it is used because the card becomes worse as the board-state progresses.) Cards in the main deck should never be about the value they generate (especially temporary value like that of sculler's), but rather the problems it addresses in any gamestate: even if the card is addressing the problem with more redundancy
Personally, whenever I make a list I never EVER EVER think about "wow, I can't wait to cast this turn 2 for all of this value", but rather I react accordingly to possible future gamestates and the volatile nature of the hand, deck, board, and graveyard in the format. I understand my opponent can draw three cards and find lightning bolt, getting back their forked bolt. I understand that topdeck sculler mid-to-late game is basically dead in grindy matchups. Cards like thalia, revoker, mom, avenger, mangara are never dead. EVER.
Basically, don't play sculler. It's really. REALLY. REALLY bad. There's also a reason the mono-white version of the deck has consistently been the best version for 8 or so years, but I don't want to get into that because for some reason people think they can improve the deck by weakening a resilient basic-heavy manabase with strong creature synergies by adding things that don't fit the overall goal of the deck
Legacy:WDeath and TaxesW W45-L16-D11 8 Top 8s 15th Scg Oakland
Current Kiln Fiend Count: 153 Please message me if you want to trade me or give me some.
Commission Rezombied to alter some cards, he's awesome!
Basically played Madea's standard aggro type build:
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Serra Avenger
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Flickerwisp
4 Æther Vial
1 Sword of Fire and ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Absolute Law
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest In Peace
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
2 Cataclysm
1 Sunlance
Started off hot, 2-0, then fell to 2-3.
Match 1, Burn. 2-1
Game one he ran out of gas and I ground it out, game 2 he was too fast. Game 3 a turn 2 Absolute Law followed by a few random dudes sealed the game easily, he couldn't get enough burn through to my face through Thalia.
Match 2, Miracles. 2-1
Game one I keep him off of mana and grind him away, fought through a Terminus without too much trouble.
Game 2 a double Aether Vial Hand loses to a double Wear//Tear hand. He also had StP, and 2 Snapcaster Mage to flash them back which I couldn't get through anything and eventually got Counter/Top locked.
Game 3 T1 Aether vial into double port keeps him off Jace and Terminus as I bash in with dudes. At one point he cast Wear//Tear on my Pithing Needle which was on Top. I Flickerwisp my Phyrexian Revoker which had proactively named Jace, re-name it to Top. It felt so dirty and he never recovered from that. I really like this match-up for us, it honestly didn't feel that tough, and it's nice to feel that way against the "best" deck in the format.
Match 3, Turbo-DarkDepths?? 0-2
G1 I mulled to 3...my opener was a 1 lander no AEther Vial, then I literally didn't see a single land in my mulligans until I got to 3. Regardless, I basically sat there and watched as he went T2 Vampire Hexmage T3 Dark Depths, sac Hexmage make a Marit Lage token...
G2 I literally have no idea what I'm up against or what to board in. I blindly Pithing Needle Hexmage which slows him down until T5 when he has eventually hasThespian's Stage
I don't see 1 Karakus or Wasteland in either game. He said it's kind of a homebrew, the closest I could find to it after coming home and scouring the internet is this.
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=63421
He said that DnT is actually a tougher matchup because of MD Karakus, and I feel like it actually wouldn't be that tough to play against again with some better luck, but I'll give the guy credit he went on to be 5-0.
Match 4. Colorless Eldrazi 0-2
Holy *****. I got run over, it wasn't even funny. Basically both games were something like T1 Eldrazi Mimic, T2 Thought-Knot Seer snag my removal, bash for 4. T3 Reality Smasher bash for 14. Warping Wail kills all of our early creatures and Mom is useless for blocking. This deck could be the real deal, having access to an entire deck of 2 colorless producing lands in Legacy + all of the new dudes that got printed seems pretty silly. Blue decks will likely keep it in check, but if it ends up being popular it could be a nuisance for DnT players.
Match 5, win and in to the top8. B/R Faithless Reanimator. 1-2
G1 he went Turn 1 Grave Titan on the play, that ended quickly, loss.
Game 2 he mulled and kept a mana light hand and T2 Thalia and a Wasteland basically put it out of reach, win.
G3 he started off a little slower, but still landed a T3 Grave Titan. I start Vialing in Serra Avenger and 2 Mirran Crusaders but I just couldn't stabilize fast enough and he attacks for exactly lethal with tokens the turn after I am finally able to double block and kill Grave Titan with Crusaders. I would have alpha striked him next turn. I missed one open attack with Serra Avenger which cost me the game as I could have alpha striked a turn earlier.
I never saw my E-Tutor, Rest In Peace, Containment Priests in either of the 2 sideboard games, which sucked, but ultimately I lost the game by a major misplay of missing an open attack.
Pretty happy with my first time playing Legacy competitively, and very proud of beating a decent Miracle's player, feel pretty dumb to have missed top8 over not attacking with a vigilance flier, but excited to back playing magic and love playing DnT already. A huge thanks to the regular contributors here, without your help I wouldnt have won a single game let alone 2 matches, and I hope I can contribute to the cause going forward.
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
2 Serra Avenger
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Karakas
2 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Rest in Peace
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Vindicate
1 Thoughtseize
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Pithing Needle
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Bitterblossom
1 Enlightened Tutor
R1 Infect - Game 1 I had Bob - which possibly doesn't even qualify as a "risk" against the deck most of the time - and plenty of Plowshares. Game 2 I got double-Orzhoz Pontiff blowout off the back of another Bob.
2-0, 1-0.
R2 Junk Loam w/ Punishing Grove - This was basically Tom Keating's deck that won that last SCG of the year. Game 1 I got a Mom-protected Mystic>>Batterskull into play. Game 2 I landed a turn 2 Bitterblossom and he never caught up.
2-0, 2-0.
R3 Pox - Game 1 the Vial I land on turn 1 lefts me play around his Dark Rit>>Turn 1 Liliana, and I get Bob into play, letting me get ahead of his attrition. Game 2 I got Bitterblossom early. Most of his stuff is "sacrifice one creature" so he can't catch up.
2-0, 3-0
R4 Elves - I elect to play this one because I am uncertain if I can double-draw into Top 8. I probably could have, but wanted to try to get to an easy 13 points. Instead I matchup against Elves, have to mulligan to a mediocre 5 in game 1, and lose. Game 2, I am able to get an early Jitte and Containment Priest online. He ends up using all 4 of his Glimpses but can't catchup. Game 3, I just get run over early as Elves is wont to do. Bad choice I guess.
1-2, 3-1
R5 Merfolk - This one got broadcast here. It's at the 03:57:47 mark. They were very good games that exemplify the kind of raw advantage you can get out of black. Even though I missed a Bob trigger in game 1, the rest of them got me through it.
2-0, 4-1
Since my opponent was forced to play this didn't come up, but I was prepared to possibly play R5 even if I could draw into top 8 at 3-1-1, because I would have been 8th seed matching up against my R4 Undefeated Elves opponent if I drew in, which would likely be a fate avoided if I were the 2nd overall seed going in. So playing was a good call...
But I matched up against another Elves opponent in the quarterfinals and was promptly crushed on another bad game 1 mulligan to 5, then crushed again in game 2 with a hardcast Craterhoof through double Containment Priest. Should net me 5th or 6th and a nice dual land after all's said and done. Onward with the streak of really bad QF matchups.
Bob and Pontiff were my MVP cards today, no doubt about it. I can't imagine it was a meta for Sculler, because Thoughtseize wasn't even exceptional today since I never matched up against any of the pure combo in the room, which included a couple ANTs, Dredge, I believe a Reanimator, and a HIVE MIND deck. Blast from the past. That gent was still in Top 8 battling it out when I left. Very good day with the deck overall, though I would have liked to draw Pontiff once against either Elves decks, but what can ya do...
WGURBLands!WGURB
WGUInfectWGU
Legacy Lands Primer
Top 8 SCG Oakland 2014
Helpdesk
My Cube on CubeTutor
Also, I didn't say that discard isn't useful, I said they weren't game deciding for what I played against. That can easily change if there were more rounds, or if I just matched up differently.
It's the Modern deck, but it uses 4 Ancient Tomb, 4 Cavern of Souls, 4 City of Traitors plus Eldrazi lands, plus 2 Umezawa's Jitte, Phyrexian Revoker, and Endbringer to kill x/1's every turn or draw. I agree with tnehlig, it is real, but I'm not sure that Blue decks have a great game against it
It seems soft to Lands, but it is very fast and Warping Wail is better in that deck that in ours. It brutalizes Miracles because it makes Counterbalance look really bad and it plays 4 Chalice of the Void, which it can play on 1 immediately, leaving FoW as the only out. Also very bad for Elves.
I'm not sure I want to warp my deck to accommodate it, but I think it will also be present in enough quantity to have to be prepared for.
I'm not suggesting it isn't beatable, but it's kind of MUD-like, but bigger and artifact hate is largely useless against it except for hitting their Chalice.
Mom is bad. Chalice on 1 is rough.
Ghostly Prison? Moat? Ensnaring Bridge? Cataclysm seems bad, since whatever creature they keep is probably bigger than ours.
Or back to Imperial Taxes with 3 Magus of the Moon? Not sure that is good enough.
What else are other people preparing for if you are going to the Open?
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Firstly, I’m not overly worried about overdoing the sideboard for Eldrazi because we don’t have much in the side as it is.
Secondly, I think, unlike Modern, Eldrazi.dec might be a healthy shake-up for Legacy. Decks will have to figure out how to adjust. I don't think the ones hurt most by the deck figure it out in time for Philadelphia.
Thirdly, I do not think this is as bad as, say, Elves. It is still (kind of) a fair deck with little deck manipulation, and susceptible to poor draws because they are, in the end, an overpowered Timmy deck. Yes, it can have a nut starting hand, but it can’t combo off into a win and it lacks search. Sometimes they don’t have a turn 1 or turn 2 creatures, which isn’t our problem, most games. Equipment is huge, though sadly Warping Wail is well-suited to killing Stoneforge Mystic. Mana denial is huge, keeping in mind they also run Wasteland because, why not? But if they are trying to Wasteland us, it is slowing them down. Do NOT waste Ancient Tomb unless it completely takes them off mana. They have to place big dummies, so let them kill themselves. It helps us race. Try to avoid x/1 creatures post board. Ethersworn Canonist is way better than Thalia, Guardian of thraben because they want to play more than one spell, especially creatures, each turn. Slow them down and take away Warping Wail as removal. Sorceries aren’t very good, but Mangara and some equipment are good.
Sideboard
Thalia and Mom come out games 2 and 3. 2 Canonist (slow them down), 2 Mangara (everything removal), O-Ring/Fiend hunter (general creature removal), Manriki-Gusari (they run Jitte), Ratchet Bomb (on 0 for Chalice, Endless One) come in. Keep 1 Mom for Dismember.
Council’s Judgment is actively mediocre against a deck that can and does run 4 Warping Wail and it is very expensive. Oblivion Ring is actually better and the Flickerwisp tricks are relevant. You might want to review that part of the Primer.
Moat is too slow. Great choice for Miracles players, though. hin, hint: if you want to beat Eldrazi and you play Miracles, play Moat...
Ensnaring Bridge stops us from attacking, and we really need to get through them before they get Endbringer online. If you haven’t died from that card yet, it is very, very annoying since it untaps on every upkeep.
Cataclysm hurts us more than them because their lone creature is probably better than ours and they run several artifacts, most importantly Jitte and Revoker, which also hurt us. Plus they often are stuck with an Eye of Ugin in hand, which they can now play.
Armageddon is strictly worse that Cataclysm.
tnehlig suggested Retribution of the Meek, which is okay. I wish I knew what other deck we used it against…
Ratchet Bomb on 0 destroys Chalice of the Void and Endless One, but not much else aside from us.
Path to Exile probably doesn’t get them a land, I don’t think they run basics in the Legacy build, which is why Blood Moon early is very good against them. However, Chalice on 1 is still a problem.
Mangara of Corondor dies to Warping Wail and is slow, but it is repeatable removal that ignores Reality Smasher’s self-protection. It also gets Chalice off the board and exiles lands.
Ghostly Prison seems okay, but it probably only slows them to one attack a turn rather than stopping them.
OMG, they’re gonna make me run Godsend, aren’t they? If the equip was one less, I would say this card is bonkers against them when equipped to Serra Avenger.
Thinking something like this for Philadelphia:
11 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
1 Ghost Quarter
Creatures 26
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Æther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Pithing Needle
1 Oblivion Ring or Fiend Hunter
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Manriki-Gusari or Godsend (I’m not kidding…)
If players are expecting Eldrazi, then based on how the deck plays out…
- Miracles, Elves, Storm and possibly Sneak n Show are significantly worse thanks to a combination of Cavern, Chalice, Wail, and sheer speed. Miracles will need Moat and then the match improves. Plus a 2cmc way to kill Chalice.
- If they run Relic of Progenitus, which I believe is a 4-of in their sideboard, with the Chalices, Reanimator and Dredge are also in a lot of trouble.
- Burn seems soft, thanks to Chalice. Without Chalice, maybe. Eidolon hurts burn more than Eldrazi. After turn 1, they probably can’t attack with creatures and have to send burn to the face, but Eldrazi reliance on Ancient Tomb helps Burn out, so they can put themselves within kill range quickly. They also can’t afford to stumble against Burn.
- It’s pretty bad for BUG, Grixis, and 4 Color and RUG Delver and Shardless BUG because their removal looks pretty bad and their creatures don’t match up to 5/5 Haste, Trample on turns 2/3. Plus chalice on 1 is, once again, super effective.
- Jund seems to have a game that goes from mediocre to outright bad. Hurting themselves with Bob and mostly irrelevant removal.
- Stoneblade and Deathblade look mediocre because they can’t race and trample goes right through TNN, but a TNN with equipment is good if Eldrazi stumble.
- Infect has to not allow Eldrazi to resolve Chalice. If they do, then Eldrazi have removal for their creatures and can race. Since Infect uses it’s counterspells for tempo, not to stop creatures from being played, Cavern doesn’t help Eldrazi here.
- Merfolk has an average match in the absence of Islandwalk. It does have TNN and Phantasmal image, plus Meerow Reejerey to tap blockers, but if they don’t hit those, they can’t stonewall, either. A couple of lords turn a TNN with Jitte into a nightmare. 45/55 or 50/50.
- Dragon Stompy, a deck that does not impress me at all, should benefit from turn 1 Blood Moon/ Magus of the Moon and be a huge pain for Eldrazi using their own tricks. Plus 3 Ensnaring Bridge. It’s basically a prison deck with a way to finish.
- MUD is a toss up. Probably strong? Blightsteel Colossus and Wurmcoil Engine look real good, but not as fast. The longer the game goes, the better MUD’s chances.
- Lands seems strong against them because they play on the wrong angles for Eldrazi.
- Painter should demolish them. I’m expecting a lot of Painter’s Servant.
- I have no sense of how Goblins does. Can they go wide fast enough?
I expect decks with Blood Moon, which is fine for us. Thanks for wasting your slots against us.
If I had to make a guess, if people are hedging against being surprised like the Modern PT was, then I expect the following strategies:
- Merfolk from those trying to race with evasion
- Painter from combo
- MUD as a kind of direct frontal attack (sheer power versus sheer power)
- Lands from control
The biggest losers are probably many of the most popular decks in the meta: Miracles, Elves, Storm, Reanimator, Dredge, Delver, Burn, Jund, Show and Tell. Still, I expect combo decks trying to race them for the turn 2 kill, or at least getting out something that they can’t cope with (Griselbrand, Emrakul). Plus, people will play what they have and Storm, Reanimator and Sneak n Show are 21% of the meta and rising.
If this is right, we are better positioned than the biggest losers, maybe close to Merfolk or Dragon Stompy, but not better than 50/50. Mostly that is because Chalice on 0 or 1 does not ruin us, but a lot of decks fold to a deck that can do that and then kill you 2-4 turns later with big, aggressive creatures. That combination of lock-out plus aggression is very effective.
Thoughts? Alternative assessments? Philadelphia is going to be interesting. Or terrible.
Bonus Question: Modern Pro Tour even more boring than the 50th Super Bowl? Vote now!
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
How many people usually go to Legacy SCG Opens? How many people are expected to go to this one? What percentage of those do we think will have Eldrazi.dec built in time? So many questions.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
My 1994 Magic Cube
Japanese cards on eBay -- Legacy, Modern, EDH, Cube.
It does hit Tasigur, Gurmag Angler, mid-to-late-game Tarmogoyfs (aka, everything in BUG Delver that isn't Delver or Deathrite), TNN after a single Merfolk lord, most non-indestructible Eldrazi, most Reanimator and Show and Tell targets, Sigarda, Prime Time, about half of MUD's creatures, almost always Knight of the Reliquery, our Batterskull'd Germ token...
It's absolutely useless against Burn, Goblins, Infect, Elves, most non-BUG Delver variants (and obviously any creatureless decks) though.
I guess if you're expecting Eldrazi and/or lots and lots of fatties, it's an option. Doesn't really shore up our bad matches (Infect and Elves) though.
Or just play Moat out of the side. Always an option, albeit expensive.
Could you post your updated list and sideboard?
I've still only had the chance to test three matchups with BW Taxes: Mana-Rock Eldrazi, RUG Delver, and Shardless Pox. To be honest, none of them have been pretty. A decision that came up frequently in the latter two was whether to expose a Scrubland in the early game. Despite trying to protect them where possible, I frequently had issues getting WW for Serra Avenger or Flickerwisp because of opposing Wastelands, Stifles, Smallpoxes, and Sinkholes. I hope to get the chance to test against other decks.
My 1994 Magic Cube
Japanese cards on eBay -- Legacy, Modern, EDH, Cube.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=11508&d=265464&f=LE
Even with Eldrazi.dec possibly being a thing, I think I'm gonna to keep this the same for now.
I have come up with this list to combat it.
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Ghost Quarter
10 Plains
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Magus of the Moat
4 Sword to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Magus of the Moat
2 Containment Priest
2 Wilt-leaf Liege
2 Council's Judgement
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in Piece
2 Ethersworn Canonist
Things to note: 24 lands with one wreckage. It may become a second instead of the ghost quarter, but I like the extra wasteland effect against most decks as they generally grab their basics first in games 2 and 3.
Batterskull may go to side or Sword of War and Peace might be put in there due to the flying and life gain because I like War and Peace in my meta with Crusader, but I don't know the value if I don't have Crusader.
I can't decide if I want Moat or Magus because both have upsides and downsides. I don't see much Bolt, so I think I prefer Magus. Enlightened tutor is a nice interaction though... I will post results! So far in my testing, It is doing well. It is helping in the Jund match greatly.