MTG Salvation

Quote from Bosque »

@headminerve: You board out all your equipment but Batterskull against Miracles? I'd really suggest you keep all the Mystic's and Sword of Fire and Ice in, and Sword of War and Peace if you have it. Having equipment makes any creature (and we have a lot of them) dangerous. SoFaI gives us card advantage and protects from Jace bounce and Snapcaster/Clique ambush, and SoWaP gives us protection from Swords to Plowshares, Monks and a fast clock. We have 26 creatures, they only have 4 Terminus and up to possibly 8 StP with Snapcaster.

Yeah, if anything Batterskull is the first to go for me. It is expensive without a SFM you can't guarantee and it "goes away" a lot more easily than the other equip. Either sword is pressure and Jitte keeps the board clear against the creature heavy lists while also being a finisher.

Yeah I usually keep equipment in for the random top deck creature to wear and to close a game quicker if my opponent hasn't found an answer yet.

If there is an equipment that comes out in the miracles matchup I think its Jitte. The recurrable body on Batterskull and the value from Sowap/Sofai are significantly more advantageous to us in a lengthy drawn out game than a Jitte. As for Planeswalkers. I've tested both Elspeth KE and big Elspeth. I have to say the game is essentially over if you land big elspeth. She can wipe the angels off the board if they've gotten there, and she can create near infinite chump blockers for mentors if they're trying to outrace you. Only terminus hits her off CB and hopefully they've been digging and playing their terminus' throughout the game.

Against Miracles I keep both Swords and Batterskull, and take out Jitte. I think that's about right. Usually fetch the two swords first unless I desperately need a body on play.

I have SoWaP, SoFaI, and Jitte in against Miracles. Batterskull Germ tokens are prone to being bounced by Jace, and few things feel worse than paying 5 mana for an equip only to have your creature answered for one mana; you are giving your opponent virtual time walks. To its credit, Batterskull is a threat that slips through Counterbalance most of the time though.

Yeah, I don't think we can afford to enter the long game with Miracles anymore, i.e. the point where you can use Batterskull as a recursive threat. They have better tools for the late game and out of no where kills with mentor. And I fully agree with Madea's points on Batterskull otherwise.

The swords make any creature a threat.

My local meta seemed to mainly have the legend heavy build or mentor, and I think Jitte is good insurance for both. Keeps you protected from annoying shenanigans and safe from a swarm.

Yeah, I keep Batterskull because I can force it through Counterbalance, I'm aware it's weak to Jace though (I board in Pithing Needle for him).
Jitte looks fine against Monastery Mentor, although a PW can match and possibly overcome the amount of tokens the opponent may generate without needing to invest mana to equip anything, nor a body to cast and attack with.
That's why I tend to board out the sword as well. I feel like I miss bodies, especially when you play the long game and draw your deck naturally while your opponent Ponders / Brainstorms every 2 turns. I can force an attack with Mother of Runes by the way, and she protects my guys against white...

All in all, I like the idea of Gideon making emblems against the hate and making bodies against the nature of decks like Shardless Sultai that has a decent amount of bodies and removals altogether, or Miracles that has so many ways to dig quickly for the right answers. And with him, I feel I can keep the Sword in and the 4 Mystics, like a combo piece.

Big Elspeth is tempting for the very specific Miracles MU, as we will have our 6 mana eventually, they don't have -1/-1 hate, she sneaks through CB, and deals with Angels indeed ! But I like Gideon better on the paper for its wider efficience (in terms of MUs).

For now I'll follow Frenadol's way, i.e. board out Jitte against Miracles. But some of you guys haven't said anything about Gideon, or the PW angle... What do you think ?
My first feelings about the archetype is some of our topdecks need to be gamebreakers post-board. There's a clear SB plan against Lands, Storm, Elves, Sneak and Show, etc... but I miss a real dedicated card against Miracles and various BGx decks (even though Crusader is a start).

On the fun side of things, what do you think of an old favorite of mine when I was 14 : Kjeldoran Outpost ? More than a real proposition (instead of a fourth Karakas ? mmh...), I'm thinking of it because it generates bodies, it doesn't solve the -1/-1 hate problem but it's close to what would be an ideal land for the archetype.

Quote from headminerve »

Yeah, I keep Batterskull because I can force it through Counterbalance, I'm aware it's weak to Jace though (I board in Pithing Needle for him).
Jitte looks fine against Monastery Mentor, although a PW can match and possibly overcome the amount of tokens the opponent may generate without needing to invest mana to equip anything, nor a body to cast and attack with.
That's why I tend to board out the sword as well. I feel like I miss bodies, especially when you play the long game and draw your deck naturally while your opponent Ponders / Brainstorms every 2 turns. I can force an attack with Mother of Runes by the way, and she protects my guys against white...

All in all, I like the idea of Gideon making emblems against the hate and making bodies against the nature of decks like Shardless Sultai that has a decent amount of bodies and removals altogether, or Miracles that has so many ways to dig quickly for the right answers. And with him, I feel I can keep the Sword in and the 4 Mystics, like a combo piece.

Big Elspeth is tempting for the very specific Miracles MU, as we will have our 6 mana eventually, they don't have -1/-1 hate, she sneaks through CB, and deals with Angels indeed ! But I like Gideon better on the paper for its wider efficience (in terms of MUs).

For now I'll follow Frenadol's way, i.e. board out Jitte against Miracles. But some of you guys haven't said anything about Gideon, or the PW angle... What do you think ?
My first feelings about the archetype is some of our topdecks need to be gamebreakers post-board. There's a clear SB plan against Lands, Storm, Elves, Sneak and Show, etc... but I miss a real dedicated card against Miracles and various BGx decks (even though Crusader is a start).

On the fun side of things, what do you think of an old favorite of mine when I was 14 : Kjeldoran Outpost ? More than a real proposition (instead of a fourth Karakas ? mmh...), I'm thinking of it because it generates bodies, it doesn't solve the -1/-1 hate problem but it's close to what would be an ideal land for the archetype.

I like the idea of Gideon, personally. A beater, stream of dudes, and an anthem that can't be interacted with. I would think he'd fit more in the aggressive list because he wouldn't be taxed as heavily, but I would be concerned about tying up another slot in the beater category. From the previous lists, I would say he'd be a replacement for Brimaz with also having Karakas insulation. He is obviously not stellar in the Wingmare list.

I do not particularly like the idea of Big Elspeth. Like I said in my last post, going to the later game isn't ideal against Miracles anymore and I don't think that she solves that challenge. It's incorrect to say that they don't have -1/-1 hate because Staticaster Mage and Sulfur Elemental are common in my experience. The tokens are also a losing proposition against mentor because they will quickly be outnumbered and out classed by the prowess.

Outpost is a fun card, and I'd certainly say any card is worth being tested (even more so if it's a favorite). I will say the Plains requirement, both needing one and having to sacrifice it, is rough, especially since it opens you up further to Wasteland. It also ties up your mana quite a bit, reducing the effectiveness of Rishadan Port.

It's incorrect to say that they don't have -1/-1 hate because Staticaster Mage and Sulfur Elemental are common in my experience

Very true, I even quoted Elemental in my previous post.

As far as Planeswalkers go why not run ajani in the more aggressive lists. Get a crusader suited up and fly him over the top or drop counters on your creatures for more stability vs - effects?

I think Gideon is fine, I think I saw a list somewhere jamming one into the sideboard. If you want to test it I'd go ahead, but personally I like running 3-4 Vryn Wingmare, so I don't think I'll be trying him anytime soon.

Elspeth looks nice in theory, but 6 mana is asking a lot, even in a grindy game against Miracles. That means spending a turn tapping your Karakas, so it can't protect Thalia/Brimaz; and tapping your Ports, so you can't limit their mana. Even the times that she is castable I feel like you won't always want to.

Veteran Armorer is superior to Honor of the Pure, not least because 1) it is unaffected by Thalia, 2) can be vialed in, 3) provides a 2/2 body. Sure, it can be killed, but I wouldn't say that "dies to removal" is worse than "enchantment taxed by Thalia and Wingmare + has to be hard cast into counterspells + dies to Abrupt Decay." The real decision is between VA and Wilt-Leaf Liege, and that's largely because WLL is really hard to kill and is fun for messing with hand destruction decks.

Hi Everyone,
First time poster on this forum. I have been playing Death and Taxes for about a year with some success (60% win rate life time at local events). Our legacy community is ever growing where I live and I am struggling more and more to achieve a higher win rate.

My local meta is pretty small. Lots of Miracles, lots of shardless, 1 or two storm, couple delver lists, couple brews.

I struggle continually with the miracles match up. I dont know if its my list or just my approach to the match up or both.

As for my approach I tend to be more of the aggressive side of the fence. I will admit to jamming creatures onto the board to establish myself as the aggro deck, only to get wrecked by a terminus (which is obviously a problem). However I somehow rationalize that this was correct as, again I am the aggro deck in this matchup. Should I grind the matchup out deploying 1 threat at a time? Should I deploy a few threats, wait for a terminus, then deploy the rest and hope not to get terminused again? Or should I be jamming?

Any help is appreciated. Comments and criticisms are welcome.

Welcome!

About Kjeldoran Outpost: it would've been nice if it allowed you to sac any land instead of a Plains so it could have some neat interactions with Flagstones, but as it is I don't think the deck needs such an effect against any matchup other than Miracles, and the net loss of a land is hard to swallow. This deck is very mana hungry and a self 1-for-2 is not worth it. The Outpost itself can also be Wastelanded.

Ive noticed that the matchup depends more on your starting hand than on what you actually side in. Ideally you want to keep a hand with Wasteland to keep Grove out in the first few turns which are crucial, and deploy a quick clock before they can stabilize. It's not a good matchup but it's still doable with the correct hand. When it comes to deckbuilding you want stuff that doesn't automatically die to Punishing Fire, like Serra Avenger, who also flies so it can punch through KotR.

When it comes to identifying threats Bob is by far your number one target. 4c Loam is a really inefficient deck when it can't generate extra card draws or have an active Loam with a ton of mana and cycle lands, which only happens when they've stabilized in the mid lategame. If they land a Bob try to kill it by all means possible. Fetch a Jitte if you don't have an Avenger to make contact with a SoFaI for the trigger, or just StP it if you have one in hand. It's not unusual for the opponent to just mana flood into oblivion when they're reduced to drawing one card per turn.

If you really want sideboard help then upping your RiP count to 3 and adding an Absolute Law isn't out of the question.

Quote from Ayiluss »

Hey everyone,
I have a friend who plays 4C Loam deck and I'm not sure how to sideboard against it...

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/control/179856-deck-death-and-taxes?comment=13593
J

Quote from chorney »

Hi Everyone,
First time poster on this forum. I have been playing Death and Taxes for about a year with some success (60% win rate life time at local events). Our legacy community is ever growing where I live and I am struggling more and more to achieve a higher win rate.

My local meta is pretty small. Lots of Miracles, lots of shardless, 1 or two storm, couple delver lists, couple brews.

I struggle continually with the miracles match up. I dont know if its my list or just my approach to the match up or both.

As for my approach I tend to be more of the aggressive side of the fence. I will admit to jamming creatures onto the board to establish myself as the aggro deck, only to get wrecked by a terminus (which is obviously a problem). However I somehow rationalize that this was correct as, again I am the aggro deck in this matchup. Should I grind the matchup out deploying 1 threat at a time? Should I deploy a few threats, wait for a terminus, then deploy the rest and hope not to get terminused again? Or should I be jamming?

Any help is appreciated. Comments and criticisms are welcome.

While I don't often play DnT, I did play goblins for years and this was a huge problem there too. when you're the aggro player against decks with board wipes like terminus, or even the non-permanent -x/-1 effects discussed right now it is entirely wrong to over extend yourself. endlessly jamming creatures might get you a lot of early pressure but it leaves you empty and top decking after a board wipe and a decent opponent will just walk all over you. Now on the flip side playing one threat at a time is equally wrong, most of the time. You won't have the proper pressure you need to win the game and you're just more playing into their control. You need to find the sweet spot of holding enough creatures to rebuild post board wipe while still maintaining enough board presence to control the board. Sadly when playing DnT we don't have a ringleader effect to just hold back and recover from the board wipe, so we need to ask ourselves before we play a creature "do we need this guy/gal on the field right now?" if not hold it. As a very loose guide in the beginning try to keep about half your creatures back in hand to prevent board wipes, and with practice you'll be able to know that balance when you're playing.

in addition to that try to find small plays to help out. Obviously if you're expecting a board wipe, try to tax them out of playing it as best you can. If you have a vial on 3 hold your flickerwisp so you can save an important creature. We run the equipment so any of these creatures can quickly become a threat make good use of them. Hope this all helps.

Massacre isn't a relevant argument. If you are rolling deep in x/1 creatures, Honor, Armorer and WLL all fail. The best defenses against it are non-Plains white sources, taxing, and Gaddock Teeg or double lord effect.

You are right about Pyroclasm, but, again, 2 damage, so the same issue applies, except Teeg is useless there. In that case, what you want is Mom to sacrifice herself and make your best card pro-red.

That leaves Toxic Deluge. Honor allows them to know exactly how much life they need to pay (2+). However, Armorer + Vial means that if they pay 1 life, Armorer saves everyone and they just wasted a huge spell. It is a blowout. If we have an x/2+ creature on the field, then, once again, none of the pump effects work because they will pay enough life to kill everything anyway.

Will we always have Vial and Veteran? Of course not, but having Vial on 2 and the opponent having to play guessing games is part of our taxing.

What Massacre and Pyroclasm are good arguments in favor of is a bunch of Serra Avengers.

EDIT: ..., yes, and Brimaz!

... and Brimaz !

I'm not sure about Brimaz right now because of Tarmogoyf returning to an all time high in usage rate now that there are no prominent Delve cards **cough**TC, DTT**cough** eating up all the graveyards anymore.

Brimaz was a house in the TC era because he was often the biggest creature on the field but not anymore. Still eternally good against Miracles but not that optimal in all other matchups, I'd rather have an Avenger instead.

I've been getting into Legacy and working towards building D&T (slowly :rolleyes2:) and Ive been wondering if there is a reason for the 1 off Flagstone of Trokair other than there being essentially no downside to running one?/ the occasional pox game

One of the possible occurrences is that when you cast cataclysm it allows you to essentially keep 2 lands in play instead of 1

I played Legacy FNM at my LGS. Love my shop. Only 12 people tonight but got some testing in with Kor Skyfisher as a 2 of.

Round One Infect:

Lost game 1 on turn 2. Invigorate/Berk for the loss.
Game 2: Vial turn 1. Turn 2 play Kor Skyfisher returning a land back to my hand. He was unable to attack with his Glistener Elf with Noble Hierarch backup. He drew two more heirarchs which played turn 3. Luckily I was able to get a Thalia, Karakas and a Vial at 2 :). Infinite chump blocks while I attacked for 2 in the air. Game 3 was Thalia turn 2, Lots of ports and wastelands. I feel Mirran would have been better in this matchup but either would have been fine.

Round Two: Elves. I died. The end.

Round Three: MUD.
Turn Two Skyfisher bouncing a land. eventually picked up a Jitte. He flooded out with plenty of mana but no threats.
Game 2 Vial turn 1. He wastelanded 2 of my lands for tempo and attacked with Lodestone Golem for 15 damage. I vialed in Stoneforge fetching a Batterskull blocking his golem, killing both. Next Turn I skyfishered the Skull and stoneforged it back out. I then ported him into oblivion. Kor Skyfisher I feel was more useful than Mirran would have been.

Round 4: DNT Mirror.

Game 1 was decided by equipment advantage. I got my Jitte revoked but my Sword of Fire and Ice on a Flickerwisp took it.
Game 2: Stoneforge and Sword of War and Peace. I was able to Skyfisher Stoneforge to get a Jitte.

Overall Impressions of Skyfisher: A turn 2 2/3 flyer was better than I thought it would be. It was never back breaking but it provided incremental advantage and a butt of 3 is amazing early game. Several times I vialed it in on turn 3 when I missed a land drop to accelerate. I was able to bounce Stoneforge twice for value as well. However, I'm curious to see how it would do in the BUG matchups where Mirran shines. However, Skyfisher would probably be better in the Miracles and Land matchups.

Theoretically, emancipation angel may be better as I can then play Flickerwisp tricks with a vial at 3 but that's probably too uncommon a situation to be a consideration.

Brad Nelson is playing D&T in the SCG players championship. It's on camera now.