Hello all, I run a more modern Death and Taxes with Brimaz, King of Oreskos and Spirit of the Labyrinth in main board, but As I am new to the format, I am having struggles with what to sideboard against some decks. Even after many matches and primers, I either play wrong, or try to adapt my sideboard for each set which is not possible. I have looked through some of the most current lists and come up with this as my current board, and with some matches I do well, but others, I have no idea where to start.
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in Piece
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Serenity
1 Containment Priest (the other is in the main)
2 Gut Shot
2 Cataclysm
1 Council's Judgment
My though is RIP and E.Tutor for dredge/reanimator. and even Gut Shot for killing one of my guys to exile any Bridge from Belows. The containment Priests are for reanimator/sneak and show.
For elves and mirror containment priests and gut shots. Maybe serenity for the mirror.
for miracles, here is where I have struggled winning too, but I would use cataclysm and council's judgement and serenity with some enlightened tutor.
for storm matches I use tutors with canonist
burn and lands, if using Grove of the burnwillows, I would bringing tutors and circle of protection.
for lands specifically, cataclysm.
Decks using True-name nemesis or progenitus i have the council's judgement
for tokens of young pyromancer or another card of the like, ratchet bomb helps with tutors
Ultimately these are the most common matches i can see with this sideboard and it has worked for me for the most part, but if there are more efficient cards and strategies i should use please let me know! thank you
No problem. It'll definitely help if you have an idea of what your local meta is like, or if it's for something like a GP or Starcitygames open. Sideboards work best when tuned to the meta!
Your board looks ok, but I don't like the serenity in there. You only mention boarding it against miracles: I'd argue it hurts you more than it hurts them, blowing up your vials, spirits, revokers, and equipment. Meanwhile, they can bounce their top in response. Definitely not the right tool against Miracles. For a mono-white build, Cataclysm, Pithing Needle and Council's Judgement are the way to go.
Also, CoP: red is worthless against punishing fire decks. Those decks will try to grind you out by killing every creature you land, and only afterwards turn their attention to you (and they usually have a faster way of killing you than p-fire anyway). By then, the fight is already lost. If you are looking for a silver bullet against p-fire, Rest in Peace and Absolute Law are much better choices.
Also, it's not clear that cataclysm is that good against lands, unless you are also running rip and-or flagstones of Trokair. Possibly worth siding in I guess, but you absolute best sideboard card in that match-up is Rest in Peace, as it will stop their whole engine cold. Speaking of which, RiP is a star in so many match-ups other than Reanimator and Dredge. It's a house against any decks playing Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman, Nimble Mongoose & co., usually neutering 8+ cards in those type of strategies. You probably only want to tutor for it in the combo and lands matchups though, as the grindier decks have more ways of getting it off the table (decay, golgari charm...). Note it's also good against storm, stopping them from going off through Past in Flames and also rendering some of their rituals less effective (Cabal Ritual, Rite of Flame), and High Tide (no more reshuffling your combo pieces into your deck with Time Spiral). In short, a truly beastly sideboard card.
Elves: Canonist/Spirit are also good here. Combining one of them with a Containment Priest type effect (and possibly a mother of runes to protect them) will basically shut the elves deck down completely.
Finally, while council's judgement is our only card that can get rid of TNN and Progenitus, its role can be much broader than that. I bring it in all the time against other fair decks as an extra flexible and reliable catch-all that can get rid of enemy creatures, planeswalkers, and any troublesome permanents that they might side in against us. It's almost never the best possible answer to any specific card (except TNN and Progenitus), but it is usually a good enough answer to literally anything, which makes it very precious in a format like legacy with very tight sideboard space.
I hope this helps, and if you intend to get better at playing this deck in legacy, I recommend following this thread regularly. It is a tremendous source of guidance and information for both new and experienced players. Welcome and best of luck!
So, Ideas to change: get rid of serenity and possibly CoP:red. Any suggestions to add to my board? maybe another council's judgement or path? What are thoughts on another jitte in SB? I like CoP for any burn because my meta has a considerable amount of them, but with 1 jitte and 1 batterskull, I think I can get rid of it. I also do like serenity though for the affinity matches because they just blow me right out of the water it seems, but it is very narrow.
I have also been thinking of taking of the spirits because of the TC ban. I may add another revoker, making 4, and serra, making 3, because I am running 2 Brimaz, 3 Wisps, and 1 Mangara as my 3 drops. I thought about adding another mangara, but with 3 karakas, I don't know it is worth it. maybe split 1/1 Brimaz and Mirran.
I will deffinitely follow this thread more often now, thanks!
Would it be worth replacing a card with a pithing needle? I see them around, and since I struggle with miracles, I think it might be useful in addition to turning of a bunch of other problems to. I like the sunlance idea. Thought about a 1/1 split of gut shot and sunlance, but I will have to test that ultimately.
Today I won a GPT for Kyoto in my LGS, went 3-0-2 in the swiss and won the finals, but I gave the byes to my opponent who is a friend of mine and he will go for sure, while I;m somewhat time and budget constrained so there was no assurance that I will go. Still got nice prizes, a Jitte and a GP Boston-Worcester playmat with the Dark Confidant art on it.
I prepared a lot for midrange like Shardless BUG but apparently people still hasn't caught up with the post ban meta so I played against a lot of Delver decks, most people just substituted the banned TCs for something else and called it a day. Those were extremely easy matchups, just like the Canadian Thresh of old. Just trade 1 for 1 with them all day and they run out of gas, the difference with having access to TC is quite brutal. Restoration Angel makes 1 for 1 trades extremely lopsided in your favor, and she can block delvers all day. I had so much fun playing them again after the 3 month hiatus. TC deprecated them but now that Cruise is banned I'm certainly playing this build for the foreseeable future.
Highlights of the day include #yolo boarding in Moat against UR Delver and actually managing to resolve it. Opponent lost with 3 Young Pyros and 28 tokens in play. I swear Moat was for other kinds of matchups! Card was also very neat for stonewalling opposing TNNs, but against Patriot it obviously loses some efficiency because they can remove it, unlike BUG, Jund and my unfortunate UR opponent. If you own a Moat and are playing 9+ fliers give it a try!
I also played against a Reanimator where he got a Needle for Karakas and Griselbrand into play. I still won after doing Resto/Wisp shenanigans for 4 turns straight with 2 of each. Can't bounce Griselbrand? Dont worry, you ain't attacking with him anytime soon anyways!
One change I would make is to get rid of the Cavern of Souls and just use a basic Plains instead. Got screwed in one game today because that land is just dumb.
List is very similar to what I used to play, but no SotL in main and using Mangara. The absence of E. Plague and friends made Mangara a very happy guy today, while I didn't use my Lieges at all.
I went to a Legacy IQ yesterday, Unfortunately I took 9th out of 34. I was just shy of 8th. we were tied in points but his win% was 5% higher than mine. There were 6 rounds I went 4-2
The meta was about normal except for a few Affinity decks and a guy playing Stax. Was a lot of delver, a reanimator, lots of lands, miracles, Belcher, storm, and Elve. Probably more, but this is just what was around my tables. I was at seat 2 twice, moved to seat 1, then spent the rest of my time at seat 5. Surprisingly I was the only person playing Death and Taxes.
I'll update later in more detail but for now...
Round 1 I won 2-0 against UR Delver
Round 2 I won 2-0 against BW Stax
Round 3 I lost 0-2 against The Gate
Round 4 I won 2-0 against Miracles
Round 5 I lost 1-2 against BuG Delver
Round 6 I won 2-1 against Lands
All in all I had a fantastic time. The main deck Cataclysm was a blow out. I had 3 people just scoop to it. I also made my Miracles opponent completely salting by Flickerwisping his Keranos, God of Storms right after his casting of Containment Priest.
This is extremely thoughtful. I am hoping to get games in tomorrow.
I played 3 games against Miracles on Saturday and the green splash with only 1 Gaddock Teeg main and it really wasn't worth it (Qasali Pridemage was irrelevant.) In the absence of the fear of Treasure Cruise, it just felt awkward. Now that may have been because he was playing the Vendilion Clique version, which is a different game since it is less susceptible to Teeg. I would have much preferred Mangara of Corondor, Aven Mindcensor, and Cavern of Souls, so that is what I am going back to.
Still trying to decide between the Frenadol-Medea build (3 Resto instead of Mirran Crusader OR Brimaz; 4 Flagstones of Trokair) and the build close to Bahia.
Sideboard, I am holding off on Enlightened Tutor and going 3 Canonist, 2 RiP, 2 Cage. That might end up being 3 RiP and 1 Cage. Plus 2 Cataclysm.
I'll write a tourney report tomorrow, but the premier IQ in DC didn't go as well as I hoped. I started out the day 3-0, and then I picked up a draw in the next round against a Miracles player who was playing slowly (the game was thoroughly in my favor in turns). Things crumbled from there and I didn't end up cashing.
taking a look at the IQ DC top 32 shows it is chock full of RUG delver, all of them running 3 or 4 stifles... Probably not a good time to be playing fetchlands. The only trouble is, Show and Tell is back in form, and that deck already wants to side in blood moon against us... I'm not sure I want to play 4 flagstones unless I'm also running Dust Bowl, and that kind of requires going up to 24 lands and the resto build... I think I'll give it a shot
I wouldn't call 4 decks out of the top 32 "chock full" and it's BUG, not RUG, unless we are looking at two completely different lists.
This is the one I'm looking at.
Sorry, you'll have to copy and paste the above as I can't get this forum to recognize the link properly no matter what I do.
@ginjinheiro Dryad Militant was considered a few years ago, but I don't think anyone has really tried it since.
It certainly hurts some combo decks and it does do the other things you mention with Goyf decks and Burn.
We need to answer some questions though:
If you look at a build like this, what do you take out? It isn't just replacing Spirit of the Labyrinth, it is eating up real estate.
Are turn 1 combo decks the ones we are really worried about? In other words, is it adding more value than it is taking away if we had other cards for other matches?
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I used that list for testing against Miracles and the winrate was around 80%, especially post board, where Sylvan Library and Choke really shine in that matchup. Qasali is great for getting rid of Counterbalance, and the exalted will give you games for free very often.
And there's also how to play that matchup. Vial is the single most important card, I usually mulligan aggresively for it, or keep otherwise crappy hands if it has a Vial. The opponent if he's smart will Force it, and if it sticks you already have half the game won. Thalia is the most important creature, and assembling the Karakas, Thalia and Vial at 2 combo is one of the many easy ways to destroy Miracles. Always fetch SoFaI with Stoneforge to make every sigle one of your creatures a lethal threat, and don't overextend, and I think that's it. Be annoying in general, never let them make trades in their favor.
Is it just me or is anyone else having problems with Sneak & Show now with the MD omniessence? Just got beat 2 straight games to S&T into omni into emrakul. Dropped the past couple matches before that as well. It used to be a pretty favorable matchup, maybe just bad luck.
I wouldn't call 4 decks out of the top 32 "chock full" and it's BUG, not RUG, unless we are looking at two completely different lists.
That's the list, and I see 4 RUG delver decks in the top 16 there, one splashing black for DRS. Regardless of the hyperbole, it was the most popular deck at the top tables together with Shardless BUG
Okay, I looked at the lists carefully this time. First of all, I hate these new names that WotC has shoved down our throats. But that's another issue.
Technically, these decks are 4 color (BURG) lists. So whatever. Still, 4 decks out of 32 is not oppressive. In fact, if you look at the entire breakdown of the top 32, it's quite diverse.
2 Show and Tell
2 Lands
1 Maverick
1 Metalworker
1 Dredge
4 Temur Delver
1 Grixis Control
1 Miracles
1 Jeskai Stoneblade
1 G/B Midrange
3 Esper Stoneblade
5 Shardless Sultai
1 DnT
2 Sultai Delver
2 Miracles
1 Jeskai Control
1 U/W Stoneblade
1 Slivers
1 Storm
19 different decks in the top 32. What more do people want?
Miracles is one the most skill intensive matches. It may be one of the matches that best showcases a DnT player's strengths and weaknesses and Miracles players tend to be very good players as well.
As much as the Wg with 2 Gaddock Teeg deck is stronger against Miracles, and even more so versus Elves, that build isn't nearly as good if RUG, BUG, Shardless BUG, Show and Tell, Stoneblade (all), and weird stuff like MUD and Painter are back in the meta in force. In fact, it ends up being a vanilla 2/2 in those matches for the most part with a bad manabase.
I agree with LucaGrease that the Legacy IQ results do not bode well for Wg, which was his most important conclusion. On the other hand, while Wg is probably not viable, we still get to keep Containment Priest for Elves, Show and Tell, Reanimator, Dredge, and less common decks like Merfolk. We also still have Council's Judgment. Those help a lot out of the side AND we get to take Spirit of the Labyrinth out of the main, and maybe out of the deck entirely, which strengthens us overall. I don't want to run SotL again until it has the SotL effect on a 1/3 body for 1W or even WW aka Magical Christmas Land.
Are turn 1 combo decks the ones we are really worried about? In other words, is it adding more value than it is taking away if we had other cards for other matches?
Thanks for your comment. Yes, those are valid questions and I've been asking those myself as well. I've read the previous debate but as you said it is a few years old now so I thought revisiting the topic wouldn't hurt.
For me T1 combo decks (speed) and Miracles (card advantage) belong among the worst matchups plus they're rather frequent in my area. Anything that can add a few % in our favor (while not being completely dead in other matchups) may be worth of trying. I know it's pretty tough to choose cards to cut, that's why I was wondering if anyone here has any real experience to learn from other's failures/successes. Also DM would help against punishing fire - another problem for DnT.
As for the list you linked to I would probably take out 1 Flickerwisp and probably 1 Revoker. I am a big fan of both but running 4 of both seems unnecessary.
When it comes to ultra-fast combo, the kind that ignores 2-drops and has no need to cantrip or build mana, that's DnT's worst matchup. There aren't many decks that do this: Belcher, Oops All Spells, and to some extent Tin Fins or TES.
Your choice is either to hope not to face these particular matchups or to sideboard something rather narrow in 2-3 slots. By "rather narrow," of course, I mean Mindbreak Trap. Although this is a bad card, it's not all bad: it does serve a role in a coherent anti-combo gameplan, that being to cover one's hiney with the Trap until the 2nd land drop is reached and a hatebear deployed.
I only used to board this card in corner situations, like when I knew the particular guy at the LGS who brought Belcher every week because he loved the deck. Pithing Needle and Chalice of the Void can help too. One thing I liked about Chalice of the Void against Storm is that a Chalice@0 interacts very nicely with the Guardian of Thraben by preventing them from slow-rolling out artifact mana that might have been used to fuel a ritual storm through her.
Round 1: 2-0 vs D&T (Chris Calhoon)
This round was exceptionally close. I won both games at 5 and 6 life respectively. Having the third Mirran Crusader over the Brimaz was really good here.
Round 2: 2-0 vs Chalice Affinity
I won the dice roll, making my turn one Aether Vial a much better play than his turn one Chalice. My opponent took too much damage off his own Ancient Tomb and lost quickly. In game two, I just out tempo'd my opponent, hitting for five damage for a few turns in a row before he had time to find answers to my threats or race me.
Round 3: 2-1 vs D&T (Rob Long)
I lost game 1 very quickly to a quick 8 power on board. In games two and three, my matchup experience helped me to navigate some very complex board states and pull out ahead. While the games were good, this wasn't nearly as much of a nail-biter as the matches in round 1.
Round 4: 1-1-1 vs Miracles (Gavin Schober, 9th place)
In the first three turns of the game, Gavin takes about 1 minute humming and hawing over whether or not to let me spells resolve and what they do. I tell him that we will not finish three games if he doesn't pick up his pace (spoiler, I was right), but he doesn't take that well. I win game one easily a few minutes later. In game two, Gavin misplays a ton, and I call a judge on him twice for GRV's; coupled with the fact that I told him that he was slow playing, we do not have an enjoyable rest of the round. Gavin assembles RiP/Helm with about five minutes left on the clock, after I had successfully beaten his RiP/Energy Field combo and a Humility...I was a little upset. In game three, my opponent mulligans and I have him at 12 life with a Mirran Crusader, a second creature, and a SoFaI ready to go for the final points of damage. At my end step, I vial in a Flickerwisp to blink out his second land. This puts him in the situation where he has to have a land in hand and an Energy Field in hand (or vice versa) as his only out to get a draw, as I took him off Council's Judgment, Swords, and Terminus as outs. He draws it. I don't bother asking for the win, as he had been a bad sport all round after I called him on Slow Play.
Round 5: 0-2 vs Tezzerator (Harley Cox, a good friend of mine)
Harley Leyline/Helm'd me on about turn 5 or 6 in both games in a total of about 12 minutes. We got Chipotle. It was a good round.
Round 6: 1-2 vs D&T (Greg _______)
I won game one after drawing 3 (!) StP's to just wreck his board. He won the equipment war in game 2. In game three, I kept a fantastic hand that had a high density of three drops; given that I had a Vial and two lands, I thought this would pan out. A few turns later, I needed a third land or a removal spell to get rid of his Revoker on Vial to very easily win this game, but I just bricked for a few turns too many and he got there while I stumbled. Greg messed up pretty badly a couple of times because he was nervous, and he missed a couple of easily chances to get ahead (e.g. using a Flickerwisp on my Vial instead of just Flickerwisping his Mangara), but he'll be very good if he keeps playing the deck.
Round 7 1-2 vs Lands (Phil Sagnay, another friend of mine)
In game one, I just out-tempo him before he gets established. In game two, I made the mistake of siding out my Swords when he sided in a creature packages of Dark Confidants and Phyrexian Revokers. I lost to the beats. In game 3, I side my removal back in and am ready for his new threats. Unfortunately, his deck decided to reward him. He draws a Phyrexian Revoker back up by two Ports; the Revoker beats me from 20 to four life while I draw a hand of three drops... I have a Mangara and three Flickerwisps in hand, coupled with a Vial at three. I am about to go to town on his Tabernacles and Maze of Ith to clean up this game. Unfortunately, he draws his second Krosan Grip, which I was not playing around, and I pretty much immediately get shut out of the game. I think he killed me in turns or with a minute or two left on the clock.
Round 8 1-2 vs Shardless BUG (Jeremy Hsu, another friend)
Game one, I stick he Mirran Crusader, he dies. Game two, he resolves two Visions and I die. Game three goes to time after an extension. As we were both judges, we got into a pedantic argument about what I had done in a certain turn, and out of curiosity, we spent a little too long talking about it before calling a judge. The call had literal zero impact on the state of the game, but we were just having fun playing around with the rules here. Anyway, I decide to force the draw by just dropping a Cataclysm while he is tapped out, making his sac something like 9 permanents. In turn 5 of turns, he asks me for the concession, and as we were both out of cash range, I oblige him, in case it means that he gets an extra Open point to help him qualify for Richmond.
Reflections on the day:
D&T was all over the place at this event. The deck is well-positioned, so prepare for the mirror in the coming weeks.
Combo is at a low right now. I boarded a Thorn of Amethyst specifically because I played against Storm so much in the DC/Baltimore metagame in the past; I didn't need it.
Mirran Crusader was great. A Brimaz would have been fine against Lands, but Crusader was largely better in the other matches, and it let me play two Caverns more comfortably.
WLL is a really good card right now, but I dropped him in order to opt for the second Cavern. I would not run WLL in a two Cavern build; he's hard to cast as is.
I wasn't running Mangara, I guess I'll try the build with him main and some flagstones. Wondering if it's worth it to add Oblivion Ring back to the board, as its another answer to a show and tell on omniessence. I haven't been seeing much TNN recently and you can tutor up Oblivion Ring, plus its a little easier to cast and answers most of the same things.
I've been testing a mainboard almost identical to the one Bahra's been playing (-1 Phyrexian Revoker, +1 Mirran Crusader)
I've been digging the flagstones so 2x Cataclysm is a must. I'm not really doing much with pithing needle or absolute law. I don't know if it's worth keeping them around.
Absolute Law is still insane against burn but that's definitely dropped in popularity. I still see Young Pyromancer as being a thing coming up here. Probably only in more burn oriented decks, or UR delver running Dig Through Time. I could be wrong about that though.
Pithing Needle just doesn't seem terribly useful anymore. Phyrexian Revoker is just so much better in every matchup especially MUD (or any deck running chalice on 1).
I may replace Pithing Needle with another rest in peace or maybe even another enlightened tutor. What do you all think?
@Medea How is that Thorn of Amethyst working out in the sideboard? I never really considered it due to the 4x Thalia.
I've been testing a mainboard almost identical to the one Bahra's been playing (-1 Phyrexian Revoker, +1 Mirran Crusader)
I've been digging the flagstones so 2x Cataclysm is a must. I'm not really doing much with pithing needle or absolute law. I don't know if it's worth keeping them around.
Absolute Law is still insane against burn but that's definitely dropped in popularity. I still see Young Pyromancer as being a thing coming up here. Probably only in more burn oriented decks, or UR delver running Dig Through Time. I could be wrong about that though.
Pithing Needle just doesn't seem terribly useful anymore. Phyrexian Revoker is just so much better in every matchup especially MUD (or any deck running chalice on 1).
I may replace Pithing Needle with another rest in peace or maybe even another enlightened tutor. What do you all think?
@Medea How is that Thorn of Amethyst working out in the sideboard? I never really considered it due to the 4x Thalia.
I'd cut the Absolute Law for something else (a second RiP?). It's a fine sideboard card, but probably not the right meta call moving forward. Otherwise it looks fine. I'll also second the fact that Needle is very strong.
Thorn of Amethyst is something you should play only when you are really expecting a bunch of problems with combo. It stacks with Thalia (which is insane), making Storm players cry. I ran that specifically because historically I played against a ton of Storm in DC AND I wasn't running Etutor. It's a card I always carry with me, but rarely bust out, since the sideboard cards are so tight as is. I won't be running it at my next event unless there is a ton of spell-based combo in the room.
Hi guys, been a somewhat regular reader to this great forum for a while. Now it seems like a good time to get more involved in the discussion :).
Just last week I played at a local tournament where I got smashed by a storm deck generating 18 goblin tokens on turn 1 thanks to Past in Flames... So I am thinking of trying 2 DMs out replacing SotL. Do you think it makes sense? Has anyone here done any testing of DM recently?
Mindbreak Trap was mentioned as one of the few things you can do on the opponent's Turn 1. Sometimes you just get blown out by this. The rest of DnT is pretty well built to beat these decks, once you get to two mana. I wouldn't take out Spirit of the Labyrinth as a response to combo in the metagame.
Is it just me or is anyone else having problems with Sneak & Show now with the MD omniessence? Just got beat 2 straight games to S&T into omni into emrakul. Dropped the past couple matches before that as well. It used to be a pretty favorable matchup, maybe just bad luck.
I have found it tricky, and it seems to be showing up more. There are a few answers of course in the ordinary DnT list. I'll try to just mention them more or less in order:
I mention Flickerwisp only because it buys you a turn -- not that great.
I would like to propose a sideboard option for this and other mono-blue decks. Please don't dismiss it out-of-hand. Although I'll confess it's very slow, perhaps too slow, it is effective, and it might be good in some other matchups, especially Reanimator or something like that: Smokestack.
J
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http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/control/179856-deck-death-and-taxes
I'm sure they can help you more than out here in the main forum.
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2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in Piece
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Serenity
1 Containment Priest (the other is in the main)
2 Gut Shot
2 Cataclysm
1 Council's Judgment
My though is RIP and E.Tutor for dredge/reanimator. and even Gut Shot for killing one of my guys to exile any Bridge from Belows. The containment Priests are for reanimator/sneak and show.
For elves and mirror containment priests and gut shots. Maybe serenity for the mirror.
for miracles, here is where I have struggled winning too, but I would use cataclysm and council's judgement and serenity with some enlightened tutor.
for storm matches I use tutors with canonist
burn and lands, if using Grove of the burnwillows, I would bringing tutors and circle of protection.
for lands specifically, cataclysm.
Decks using True-name nemesis or progenitus i have the council's judgement
for tokens of young pyromancer or another card of the like, ratchet bomb helps with tutors
Ultimately these are the most common matches i can see with this sideboard and it has worked for me for the most part, but if there are more efficient cards and strategies i should use please let me know! thank you
I thought about it, but with so many people and different topics, I was not sure if I would get the help I need, but I will give it a shot!
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So, Ideas to change: get rid of serenity and possibly CoP:red. Any suggestions to add to my board? maybe another council's judgement or path? What are thoughts on another jitte in SB? I like CoP for any burn because my meta has a considerable amount of them, but with 1 jitte and 1 batterskull, I think I can get rid of it. I also do like serenity though for the affinity matches because they just blow me right out of the water it seems, but it is very narrow.
I have also been thinking of taking of the spirits because of the TC ban. I may add another revoker, making 4, and serra, making 3, because I am running 2 Brimaz, 3 Wisps, and 1 Mangara as my 3 drops. I thought about adding another mangara, but with 3 karakas, I don't know it is worth it. maybe split 1/1 Brimaz and Mirran.
I will deffinitely follow this thread more often now, thanks!
I prepared a lot for midrange like Shardless BUG but apparently people still hasn't caught up with the post ban meta so I played against a lot of Delver decks, most people just substituted the banned TCs for something else and called it a day. Those were extremely easy matchups, just like the Canadian Thresh of old. Just trade 1 for 1 with them all day and they run out of gas, the difference with having access to TC is quite brutal. Restoration Angel makes 1 for 1 trades extremely lopsided in your favor, and she can block delvers all day. I had so much fun playing them again after the 3 month hiatus. TC deprecated them but now that Cruise is banned I'm certainly playing this build for the foreseeable future.
Highlights of the day include #yolo boarding in Moat against UR Delver and actually managing to resolve it. Opponent lost with 3 Young Pyros and 28 tokens in play. I swear Moat was for other kinds of matchups! Card was also very neat for stonewalling opposing TNNs, but against Patriot it obviously loses some efficiency because they can remove it, unlike BUG, Jund and my unfortunate UR opponent. If you own a Moat and are playing 9+ fliers give it a try!
I also played against a Reanimator where he got a Needle for Karakas and Griselbrand into play. I still won after doing Resto/Wisp shenanigans for 4 turns straight with 2 of each. Can't bounce Griselbrand? Dont worry, you ain't attacking with him anytime soon anyways!
One change I would make is to get rid of the Cavern of Souls and just use a basic Plains instead. Got screwed in one game today because that land is just dumb.
List is very similar to what I used to play, but no SotL in main and using Mangara. The absence of E. Plague and friends made Mangara a very happy guy today, while I didn't use my Lieges at all.
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Restoration Angel
3 Serra Avenger
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Mangara of Corondor
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
5 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Cataclysm
2 Council's Judgment
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Pithing Needle
1 Moat
2 Rest in Peace
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1x Containment Priest
4x Flickerwisp
1x Mangara of Corondor
4x Mother of Runes
3x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Serra Avenger
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Instants
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Cataclysm
Lands
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Eiganjo Castle
3x Flagstones of Trokair
3x Karakas
7x Plains
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
Artifacts
4x AEther Vial
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Absolute Law
1x Cataclysm
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Containment Priest
2x Council's Judgment
1x Enlightened Tutor
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Gut Shot
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ratchet Bomb
2x Rest in Peace
The meta was about normal except for a few Affinity decks and a guy playing Stax. Was a lot of delver, a reanimator, lots of lands, miracles, Belcher, storm, and Elve. Probably more, but this is just what was around my tables. I was at seat 2 twice, moved to seat 1, then spent the rest of my time at seat 5. Surprisingly I was the only person playing Death and Taxes.
I'll update later in more detail but for now...
Round 1 I won 2-0 against UR Delver
Round 2 I won 2-0 against BW Stax
Round 3 I lost 0-2 against The Gate
Round 4 I won 2-0 against Miracles
Round 5 I lost 1-2 against BuG Delver
Round 6 I won 2-1 against Lands
All in all I had a fantastic time. The main deck Cataclysm was a blow out. I had 3 people just scoop to it. I also made my Miracles opponent completely salting by Flickerwisping his Keranos, God of Storms right after his casting of Containment Priest.
"Death & Taxes"
Legacy:
"Death & Taxes"
I played 3 games against Miracles on Saturday and the green splash with only 1 Gaddock Teeg main and it really wasn't worth it (Qasali Pridemage was irrelevant.) In the absence of the fear of Treasure Cruise, it just felt awkward. Now that may have been because he was playing the Vendilion Clique version, which is a different game since it is less susceptible to Teeg. I would have much preferred Mangara of Corondor, Aven Mindcensor, and Cavern of Souls, so that is what I am going back to.
Still trying to decide between the Frenadol-Medea build (3 Resto instead of Mirran Crusader OR Brimaz; 4 Flagstones of Trokair) and the build close to Bahia.
Sideboard, I am holding off on Enlightened Tutor and going 3 Canonist, 2 RiP, 2 Cage. That might end up being 3 RiP and 1 Cage. Plus 2 Cataclysm.
Tomorrow.
Modern
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I wouldn't call 4 decks out of the top 32 "chock full" and it's BUG, not RUG, unless we are looking at two completely different lists.
This is the one I'm looking at.
Sorry, you'll have to copy and paste the above as I can't get this forum to recognize the link properly no matter what I do.
Dryad Militant was considered a few years ago, but I don't think anyone has really tried it since.
It certainly hurts some combo decks and it does do the other things you mention with Goyf decks and Burn.
We need to answer some questions though:
If you look at a build like this, what do you take out? It isn't just replacing Spirit of the Labyrinth, it is eating up real estate.
Are turn 1 combo decks the ones we are really worried about? In other words, is it adding more value than it is taking away if we had other cards for other matches?
Modern
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
I used that list for testing against Miracles and the winrate was around 80%, especially post board, where Sylvan Library and Choke really shine in that matchup. Qasali is great for getting rid of Counterbalance, and the exalted will give you games for free very often.
And there's also how to play that matchup. Vial is the single most important card, I usually mulligan aggresively for it, or keep otherwise crappy hands if it has a Vial. The opponent if he's smart will Force it, and if it sticks you already have half the game won. Thalia is the most important creature, and assembling the Karakas, Thalia and Vial at 2 combo is one of the many easy ways to destroy Miracles. Always fetch SoFaI with Stoneforge to make every sigle one of your creatures a lethal threat, and don't overextend, and I think that's it. Be annoying in general, never let them make trades in their favor.
"Death & Taxes"
Legacy:
"Death & Taxes"
Okay, I looked at the lists carefully this time. First of all, I hate these new names that WotC has shoved down our throats. But that's another issue.
Technically, these decks are 4 color (BURG) lists. So whatever. Still, 4 decks out of 32 is not oppressive. In fact, if you look at the entire breakdown of the top 32, it's quite diverse.
2 Show and Tell
2 Lands
1 Maverick
1 Metalworker
1 Dredge
4 Temur Delver
1 Grixis Control
1 Miracles
1 Jeskai Stoneblade
1 G/B Midrange
3 Esper Stoneblade
5 Shardless Sultai
1 DnT
2 Sultai Delver
2 Miracles
1 Jeskai Control
1 U/W Stoneblade
1 Slivers
1 Storm
19 different decks in the top 32. What more do people want?
As much as the Wg with 2 Gaddock Teeg deck is stronger against Miracles, and even more so versus Elves, that build isn't nearly as good if RUG, BUG, Shardless BUG, Show and Tell, Stoneblade (all), and weird stuff like MUD and Painter are back in the meta in force. In fact, it ends up being a vanilla 2/2 in those matches for the most part with a bad manabase.
I agree with LucaGrease that the Legacy IQ results do not bode well for Wg, which was his most important conclusion. On the other hand, while Wg is probably not viable, we still get to keep Containment Priest for Elves, Show and Tell, Reanimator, Dredge, and less common decks like Merfolk. We also still have Council's Judgment. Those help a lot out of the side AND we get to take Spirit of the Labyrinth out of the main, and maybe out of the deck entirely, which strengthens us overall. I don't want to run SotL again until it has the SotL effect on a 1/3 body for 1W or even WW aka Magical Christmas Land.
On Omniscience, I'm happy to run 2 Mangara of Corondor in the main, and combined with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Flickerwisp, Game 1 is by no means unwinnable and improves after siding.
Sadly, due to expected bad weather, I didn't get to play tonight.
Modern
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Full report from him here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29099-1st-at-Eternal-Clash-2015-with-Death-and-Taxes
Here is his build
1x Horizon Canopy
3x Karakas
4x Flagstones of Trokair
6x Plains
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
4x Flickerwisp
4x Mother of Runes
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Mangara of Corondor
2x Mirran Crusader
2x Serra Avenger
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull
2x Council's Judgement
2x Enlightened tutor
2x Rest in Peace
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ratchet Bomb
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
1x Containment Priest
seems like a good build to start with going forward.
When it comes to ultra-fast combo, the kind that ignores 2-drops and has no need to cantrip or build mana, that's DnT's worst matchup. There aren't many decks that do this: Belcher, Oops All Spells, and to some extent Tin Fins or TES.
Your choice is either to hope not to face these particular matchups or to sideboard something rather narrow in 2-3 slots. By "rather narrow," of course, I mean Mindbreak Trap. Although this is a bad card, it's not all bad: it does serve a role in a coherent anti-combo gameplan, that being to cover one's hiney with the Trap until the 2nd land drop is reached and a hatebear deployed.
I only used to board this card in corner situations, like when I knew the particular guy at the LGS who brought Belcher every week because he loved the deck. Pithing Needle and Chalice of the Void can help too. One thing I liked about Chalice of the Void against Storm is that a Chalice@0 interacts very nicely with the Guardian of Thraben by preventing them from slow-rolling out artifact mana that might have been used to fuel a ritual storm through her.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
3x Karakas
4x Flagstones of Trokair
6x Plains
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
4x Flickerwisp
4x Mother of Runes
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Mangara of Corondor
3x Mirran Crusader
2x Serra Avenger
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull
2x Cataclysm
2x Council's Judgement
3x Rest in Peace
1x Pithing Needle
3x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Thorn of Amethist
2x Containment Priest
1 Grafdigger's Cage
Round 1: 2-0 vs D&T (Chris Calhoon)
This round was exceptionally close. I won both games at 5 and 6 life respectively. Having the third Mirran Crusader over the Brimaz was really good here.
Round 2: 2-0 vs Chalice Affinity
I won the dice roll, making my turn one Aether Vial a much better play than his turn one Chalice. My opponent took too much damage off his own Ancient Tomb and lost quickly. In game two, I just out tempo'd my opponent, hitting for five damage for a few turns in a row before he had time to find answers to my threats or race me.
Round 3: 2-1 vs D&T (Rob Long)
I lost game 1 very quickly to a quick 8 power on board. In games two and three, my matchup experience helped me to navigate some very complex board states and pull out ahead. While the games were good, this wasn't nearly as much of a nail-biter as the matches in round 1.
Round 4: 1-1-1 vs Miracles (Gavin Schober, 9th place)
In the first three turns of the game, Gavin takes about 1 minute humming and hawing over whether or not to let me spells resolve and what they do. I tell him that we will not finish three games if he doesn't pick up his pace (spoiler, I was right), but he doesn't take that well. I win game one easily a few minutes later. In game two, Gavin misplays a ton, and I call a judge on him twice for GRV's; coupled with the fact that I told him that he was slow playing, we do not have an enjoyable rest of the round. Gavin assembles RiP/Helm with about five minutes left on the clock, after I had successfully beaten his RiP/Energy Field combo and a Humility...I was a little upset. In game three, my opponent mulligans and I have him at 12 life with a Mirran Crusader, a second creature, and a SoFaI ready to go for the final points of damage. At my end step, I vial in a Flickerwisp to blink out his second land. This puts him in the situation where he has to have a land in hand and an Energy Field in hand (or vice versa) as his only out to get a draw, as I took him off Council's Judgment, Swords, and Terminus as outs. He draws it. I don't bother asking for the win, as he had been a bad sport all round after I called him on Slow Play.
Round 5: 0-2 vs Tezzerator (Harley Cox, a good friend of mine)
Harley Leyline/Helm'd me on about turn 5 or 6 in both games in a total of about 12 minutes. We got Chipotle. It was a good round.
Round 6: 1-2 vs D&T (Greg _______)
I won game one after drawing 3 (!) StP's to just wreck his board. He won the equipment war in game 2. In game three, I kept a fantastic hand that had a high density of three drops; given that I had a Vial and two lands, I thought this would pan out. A few turns later, I needed a third land or a removal spell to get rid of his Revoker on Vial to very easily win this game, but I just bricked for a few turns too many and he got there while I stumbled. Greg messed up pretty badly a couple of times because he was nervous, and he missed a couple of easily chances to get ahead (e.g. using a Flickerwisp on my Vial instead of just Flickerwisping his Mangara), but he'll be very good if he keeps playing the deck.
Round 7 1-2 vs Lands (Phil Sagnay, another friend of mine)
In game one, I just out-tempo him before he gets established. In game two, I made the mistake of siding out my Swords when he sided in a creature packages of Dark Confidants and Phyrexian Revokers. I lost to the beats. In game 3, I side my removal back in and am ready for his new threats. Unfortunately, his deck decided to reward him. He draws a Phyrexian Revoker back up by two Ports; the Revoker beats me from 20 to four life while I draw a hand of three drops... I have a Mangara and three Flickerwisps in hand, coupled with a Vial at three. I am about to go to town on his Tabernacles and Maze of Ith to clean up this game. Unfortunately, he draws his second Krosan Grip, which I was not playing around, and I pretty much immediately get shut out of the game. I think he killed me in turns or with a minute or two left on the clock.
Round 8 1-2 vs Shardless BUG (Jeremy Hsu, another friend)
Game one, I stick he Mirran Crusader, he dies. Game two, he resolves two Visions and I die. Game three goes to time after an extension. As we were both judges, we got into a pedantic argument about what I had done in a certain turn, and out of curiosity, we spent a little too long talking about it before calling a judge. The call had literal zero impact on the state of the game, but we were just having fun playing around with the rules here. Anyway, I decide to force the draw by just dropping a Cataclysm while he is tapped out, making his sac something like 9 permanents. In turn 5 of turns, he asks me for the concession, and as we were both out of cash range, I oblige him, in case it means that he gets an extra Open point to help him qualify for Richmond.
Reflections on the day:
D&T was all over the place at this event. The deck is well-positioned, so prepare for the mirror in the coming weeks.
Combo is at a low right now. I boarded a Thorn of Amethyst specifically because I played against Storm so much in the DC/Baltimore metagame in the past; I didn't need it.
Mirran Crusader was great. A Brimaz would have been fine against Lands, but Crusader was largely better in the other matches, and it let me play two Caverns more comfortably.
WLL is a really good card right now, but I dropped him in order to opt for the second Cavern. I would not run WLL in a two Cavern build; he's hard to cast as is.
I wasn't running Mangara, I guess I'll try the build with him main and some flagstones. Wondering if it's worth it to add Oblivion Ring back to the board, as its another answer to a show and tell on omniessence. I haven't been seeing much TNN recently and you can tutor up Oblivion Ring, plus its a little easier to cast and answers most of the same things.
I've been testing a mainboard almost identical to the one Bahra's been playing (-1 Phyrexian Revoker, +1 Mirran Crusader)
I've been digging the flagstones so 2x Cataclysm is a must. I'm not really doing much with pithing needle or absolute law. I don't know if it's worth keeping them around.
Absolute Law is still insane against burn but that's definitely dropped in popularity. I still see Young Pyromancer as being a thing coming up here. Probably only in more burn oriented decks, or UR delver running Dig Through Time. I could be wrong about that though.
Pithing Needle just doesn't seem terribly useful anymore. Phyrexian Revoker is just so much better in every matchup especially MUD (or any deck running chalice on 1).
I may replace Pithing Needle with another rest in peace or maybe even another enlightened tutor. What do you all think?
@Medea How is that Thorn of Amethyst working out in the sideboard? I never really considered it due to the 4x Thalia.
I'd cut the Absolute Law for something else (a second RiP?). It's a fine sideboard card, but probably not the right meta call moving forward. Otherwise it looks fine. I'll also second the fact that Needle is very strong.
Thorn of Amethyst is something you should play only when you are really expecting a bunch of problems with combo. It stacks with Thalia (which is insane), making Storm players cry. I ran that specifically because historically I played against a ton of Storm in DC AND I wasn't running Etutor. It's a card I always carry with me, but rarely bust out, since the sideboard cards are so tight as is. I won't be running it at my next event unless there is a ton of spell-based combo in the room.
Mindbreak Trap was mentioned as one of the few things you can do on the opponent's Turn 1. Sometimes you just get blown out by this. The rest of DnT is pretty well built to beat these decks, once you get to two mana. I wouldn't take out Spirit of the Labyrinth as a response to combo in the metagame.
I have found it tricky, and it seems to be showing up more. There are a few answers of course in the ordinary DnT list. I'll try to just mention them more or less in order:
I mention Flickerwisp only because it buys you a turn -- not that great.
I would like to propose a sideboard option for this and other mono-blue decks. Please don't dismiss it out-of-hand. Although I'll confess it's very slow, perhaps too slow, it is effective, and it might be good in some other matchups, especially Reanimator or something like that: Smokestack.
J