I'll write a tournament report tomorrow, but I split in the finals of the IQ today so a friend could qualify. The short version is that the Mangara lock is nuts right now, Aven Mindcensor pulled his weight, two Revokers seemed suffient, and mastery of the rules of Magic gives you a huge edge when playing this deck.
Kird Ape wins the Legacy Open today. I love this format.
By the way, considering Mindcensor: I think he's a perfectly reasonable choice to have at almost any time, especially if you aren't a fan of Spirit of the Labyrinth, because you'll still have good Elves-hate maindeck.
I checked them out. Far more spirit than I age with. I played an lgs today. Lost to rug landstill, death blade due to pay errors. Land still game 3 I kept a very greedy hand of 2 vials and 1 waste and he went turn 1 needle on vial. Otherwise I was mint. Tested angel of jubilation instead of my usual 2 mirran crusader. It was actually pretty good. Saved me from golgari charm in 1 match against bug and completely shut down some necessary fetch lands by my reanimater opponent. I'll probably test more. Thinking I want a second cavern or 10th plains.
Yesterday I played in a 5 round IQ and split in the finals. My list was the same as I posted above, with the exception of the two Kor Firewalkers in the sideboard being changed to a Ratchet Bomb and a Pithing Needle, and one of the Rest in Peace was changed to a Relic of Progenitus.
Round 1: 1-2 vs Infect
In game one, he was on the play and I took 9 infect on turn 2, and the remainder on turn 4. In game three, I died on turn three through a Canonist. Can't be mad. My opponent drew his 1-of Null Rod in both post-board games, which was a little rough.
Round 2: 2-1 vs Deathblade
In games 1 and 3, I just out-tempo'd my opponent and ran him over with fliers while he stumbled to deal with my disruption. Game 2 was lost to an early TNN and Jitte combo.
Round 3: 2-1 vs BUG Midrange
I lost game 1 to a turn 4 TNN equipped with Jitte; I was not expecting that combo to come out of the gates so quickly, and could have beaten it with one more turn's notice. Games two and three were pretty straight-forward, as I had additional answers to Goyfs.
Round 4: 2-0 vs Reanimator
It's hard to lose this matchup when you have 7 pieces of graveyard hate, 3 Karakas, and a bunch of things that are just generally a pain for that deck. I raced a turn 2 (on the play) Inkwell Leviathan. Come at me bro.
Round 5: ID with UR Delver
This ID wasn't 100% safe, but it would require about 6 matches to go against me, so I took the ID and slotted into the top 8 at 7th seed.
Round 6: 2-0 vs UR Delver
Game one: It doesn't matter how many cards you have if Mangara and Mincensor eat all your lands. Game 2: My opponent had to Force of Will my Ethersworn Canonist (cast off of Cavern of Souls) to fill his graveyard enough to Treasure Cruise through a Thalia and a Port...you don't win games where that happens.
Round 7: 2-0 vs Miracles
I played some of the tightest Magic of my life during this round. I don't know how many times you've experienced the pinnacle of D&T play, but there is this strange euphoric feeling you get when you completely dominate your opponent and strategically lay out traps for them that *seem* like the correct play. To make a long story short, I assembled the Mangara lock though Counterbalance, Top, Jace, and Izzet Staticaster by using two Thalia as bait over the course of three turns. Basically I tried to get in a position where he had a tapped Staticaster at his end step to kill my second Thalia (he used two Swords and the Staticaster activations to get both), allowing me to Vial in the Mangara while he was both tapped out and the Staticaster was tapped. Once the lock was assembled, I ate Jace, his Counterbalance, and got to work on his lands. After another trap to make sure he could not cast the Terminus he Brainstormed back, and yet another tricky scenario to invalidate his Entreat, he scooped with only a single white source available to him for the rest of the game, and triple port doing work on his lands.
Round 8: ID vs UWR Stoneblade
My opponent needed the invite, while I didn't, so after a quick redistribution of the prizes, I conceded.
Thoughts:
The Mangara lock was dumb all day and got me out of some binds that perhaps no other card could.
I tried a Relic of Progenitus over the second Rest in Peace today. I'm not sure how I feel about that, but it's nice to have the Relic against Cruise decks.
Aven Mindcensor, Flickerwisp, Brimaz, and Mangara together make moving the vial up to three a pretty safe bet in most stages of the game, and it scares the crap out of people.
8 fliers is fantastic.
I did not miss Spirit. At all.
2 Revoker was enough, but I wouldn't have been sad to have a third.
TNN into Jitte draws when your opponent is on the play are pretty much untouchable without an immediate answer.
Cavern of Souls should become more of a staple than it is currently. I would play four if it didn't make Council's Judgment, StP, and sideboard cards so difficult to cast.
I definitely would say your reflections are identical to mine. The only difference in opinion that i can say is that I don't like the idea of an e-tutor side board plan. But perhaps it's time to test it. Did you feel having access top e-tutor plus silver bullets was key at all.
Nice report Medea! Did you miss Mirran Crusader at all, as in, were there any games where you wished the 2x Brimaz were Crusaders? Or was the kitty-king pretty boss all day long? I'm having problems picking which one to use myself, as there are a handful of games where a single equipped Crusader has won games for me with Mom backup.
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Having the Enlightened Tutors was not important to my success at this individual event. It certainly added some percentage points to the Reanimator matchup, but that matchup is extremely good in the first place. I'm not sure that I want to cut them, but I would not fault anyone for doing so. If I cut the Etutors, I would probably add another RiP/Relic/Containment Priest, a third Ethersworn Canonist or a SotL, and I'd cut the CoP:Red for some creature (Mirran Crusader, a Revoker, a Spirit, Kor Firewalker).
I'd like to point out one of my decklists from August: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=71374
This deck was pre-Treasure Cruise, and this was right around when the time when BUG and RUG were on the rise again. This deck was brutally fast and just ended the game with Crusader. I think that his stock is a touch worse now, but he would have been great in the BUG matchup. My opponent was very threatened by Brimaz, but the issue is that Brimaz will trade with a Goyf, not wall one all day or attack through it.
Nice, I've been sharing the word of Mangara for quite some time now! As for Mirran Crusader, I still think he is insanely strong. I'd take out 1 Brimaz for 1 Crusader.
Now we should discuss Mangara/Mindcensor vs Spirit/Teeg builds. Mangara is a great catch-all and Mindcensor is obviously strong against decks that rely heavily on searching libraries like Elves, Stoneblade, Reanimator and so on.
Spirit/Teeg on the other hand attacks brainstorm, treasure cruise, force of will, Storm, Miracles, Elves, etc.
We still run cards that make brainstorm a lot worse, like Thalia and run cards that deal with force of will and counterbalance by making our spells uncounterable. We still don't have much way to deal with terminus. I get completely hosed by that card so often.
What do you guys think is the better build? Are there any other options to shore up these matches?
The build like the one I played excels against midrange decks which require some setup time and decks that rely on permanents to do anything important. For example, decks like MUD, Tezzerator, and Deathblade are pretty soft to my build. My build is also pretty well situated for the mirror, assuming my Wastelands are pointed at opposing Karakas.
The cost of playing my version is that it has a higher density of three drops than the Teeg/Spirit build, causing it to come out of the gates a touch slower, making it a tad bit worse against things like ANT, TES, and Elves.
Miracles probably ends up being a wash in the end, as all four of those cards are pretty good against the deck.
This is one of my favorite legacy decks. Is it still posting consistent results?
If you look towards the top of this page, you'll see that 9 decklists made day two of the most recent open, making it one of the most successful decks (6.78% of the day 2 field) other than UR Delver (17.8% of the field) and Jeskai Stoneblade (7.63% of the day 2 field). Additional, our seasoned forum regulars have been making an absolute tear at their respective local events in the past few weeks.
I took down the local Sunday tourney at my LGS with the Teeg splash, wining a badlands and a taiga. Replays of my round 2 (UWR) and finals (miracles) games are here currently:
[Warning - Game 1 lasts half an hour as I get counterbalance locked turn 3, can't play through the lock, and cant draw a karakas to deal with Clique]
Played ascendancy (2-0), UWR delver (2-1), ant (0-2), ant (2-0), ant (2-0) and miracles (2-1). Meta has been weird lately. Teeg is auto-win against ANT game 1 and shores up a lot of popular local matchups. Miracles lists locally are playing baneslayer post board making cataclysm worse in the matchup. Considering loxodon smiter as a wilt leaf replacement and shaving a cataclsym, as the mana base feels too stretched for cavern currently and it has game against miracles, delver and rock decks (slowly starting to resurge). Never saw library or choke in any games so nothing to report. For the third time in two years I lived the vial on 2 + e tutor + canopy + 2 mana in response to brainstorm/ponder dream in the semis. Considering -1 Cataclysm -1 Tutor + 2 loxodon next time I play this list.
I know I'm an enemy but need help beating this deck.
I love death and taxes but have too much love for affinity. so instead I got a friend into the deck and we play tons of dnt vs bots and I get raped quite often. so I've come here in hopes of finding what the deck is weak against. I know it's kind of lame but we just play casually-even though our decks are built for competitive play.
I run whip flares and chalice in board but dnt has so many tricks that it doesn't always matter. I've dabbled in expedition map. for grove of burnwillows and pun fire but wasteland kills it quick. any help is greatly appreciated
I know I'm an enemy but need help beating this deck.
I love death and taxes but have too much love for affinity. so instead I got a friend into the deck and we play tons of dnt vs bots and I get raped quite often. so I've come here in hopes of finding what the deck is weak against. I know it's kind of lame but we just play casually-even though our decks are built for competitive play.
I run whip flares and chalice in board but dnt has so many tricks that it doesn't always matter. I've dabbled in expedition map. for grove of burnwillows and pun fire but wasteland kills it quick. any help is greatly appreciated
You will probably get a better response if you go to the Affinity thread and ask there. The reason I am saying this is because DnT players are not experts on Affinity. They don't know the deck inside and out. In addition to this, Affinity isn't a top tier deck so they don't get to play against it a lot. I know I hardly ever run into it.
What kills Affinity with DnT is all the taxing cards plus Jitte and swords. You essentially need to be attacking with a turn 2 Vault Skirge or Ornithopter (anything that flies) equipped with cranial to have any chance before they start dropping Mothers and Thalia. Wasteland can really ruin your day. Post board with all the artifact removal they board in makes things even worse.
In short, you need to be faster than them. If you haven't killed them by turn 3, you're not going to. Boarding in their equipment that destroys other equipment and pulling that with Stoneforge games 2 and 3 is game over for you. You won't have a cranial lasting long enough to attack with.
It's just a bad matchup, period. But like I said, go to the Affinity sub forum and ask there. Those guys are the ones who have to know all the matchups well. DnT guys don't really need to worry about Affinity because, as I said, it's not a top tier deck.
If you want to ask me specific questions, tell me specifically what problems you're running into playing against DnT and I'll tell you if there is anything specifically that you can do about them.
** EDIT ** Here's a deck that Ashiok Chitturi played to an 11-1 finish. You might want to look into it.
The deck was boss all day...
For the non-believers, I got Mr. Teeg out three times at least, once in the semi-finals against Show n' Tell/Omniscience, locking my opponent out of the game. In fact, Teeg was never mockingly stuck in hand.
J
Congrats on the high finish! What did you think of your 2x Mangara and 2x Mindcensors main? Namely, were the Mindcensors ever a blow-out in denying a search, or were they mostly just 2/1 flyers that trade for Delvers? And was Mangara ever MVP with 4x Karakas and a lockout?
Also, how were the 2x Crusaders and no Brimaz, with all the RU Delvers and lightning bolts out there? Do you think it would have been better to use a 1/1 split?
And finally, did you ever have difficulties in getting Teeg out without fetches? Short of vialing at 2, you're limited to 2x Horizon Canopy, and 2x Caverns, if they're calling Kithkin/Advisor. Did this ever affect the availability of double-white for you (you have seven WW in mainboard)?
Sorry for all the questions, but I'm pretty psyched out seeing your DnT list get to 2nd place!
Aven Mindcensor is a good man in my opinion, but he pretty much failed to do his job that day. My opp's found their land in the top 4, and in the Final, my opponent deftly played around Aven Mindcensor for turn after turn, pressuring me to put out my ground pounders, when I had Mindcensor in hand. He refused to pop his fetches whenever I had three mana open. Consequently, he got to six lands, then seven, and I finally had to play Mindcensor because all my previous creatures were dead.
Possibly, I could have just "sorcery-speeded" Mindcensor out on Turn 3, when opp had two uncracked fetch lands out. But that line of play seemed wrong. In short, I got outplayed in Mindcensor.
As for Teeg, I don't want to revisit my screeching diatribes on this thread, but I think to run him with the typical DnT manabase, you need to adopt a whole different paradigm. I routinely kept hands like: Plains, Plains, Wasteland, Gaddock Teeg, Thalia, Mother of Runes, random spell. I never had a problem getting Teeg out WHEN I WANTED TO. Is it a dead card in hand? Maybe. But by the time I got my other cards on line, doing their advanced guard business, I would find the green-colored land or the Aether Vial. Maybe I'm lucky. I dunno. But it has always worked for me. Thanks for asking.
@offtheropes
-Etched champion is good
-Consider running Revoker to keep equipment offline
-Some Affinity run their own SFMs. If you decide to do this; a simple Sword of Light and Shadow should drastically improve your effectiveness. Alternatively, a Manriki Gusari could help a lot.
-Whipflare, as mentioned, is good
I notice that Rev and Jitte/Gusari are all present in the 11-1 finish's side. I liked EE against D&T sometimes; simply because the Vial->Mom and SFM->Jitte lines are so good and prevalent that I got a lot of easy 2-for-1s that were unexpected.
As for Teeg, I don't want to revisit my screeching diatribes on this thread, but I think to run him with the typical DnT manabase, you need to adopt a whole different paradigm. I routinely kept hands like: Plains, Plains, Wasteland, Gaddock Teeg, Thalia, Mother of Runes, random spell. I never had a problem getting Teeg out WHEN I WANTED TO.
I think you touched on a critical point here. Just because the card is uncastable from your opening 7 does NOT mean you throw the hand back, or that Teeg is somehow not right for the deck. If you play the 7-green-land version, you'll also have 4 Vials, meaning an 11/53 chance every draw to get the required Teeg-enabling element into play. Unless you know you're facing ANT or Elves, Teeg is generally not an ideal turn 2 play anyway. You want to coax your opponent into setting up for a CMC-4+ spell, then get Teeg down right at the last moment possible.
Also, as to Trevorphysics' question as to which build-type is better between Spirit/Teeg and Mangara/Mindcensor... none of those cards need to be mutually exclusive. I've never gone under 1x Mangara in any build I've done, and 2x Teeg seems pretty comfy right now, but that has no bearing as to whether I'll play Spirit or Mindcensor or Brimaz or Mirran or Qasali Pridemage on any given day. All those cards are at this point Legacy-proven, so you just have to "guess" right that your configuration is ideal for the day you show up to a tourney. That said, I do think "ideal" right now does equal having Teeg in, but really, any of the other choices for flex spots can be argued for to high heaven and be in the right. There is no wrong answer with any of those. All that matters is that you play well (and hopefully draw lucky too).
I'd say be patient for 5 days and not worry about it. The worst thing that happens is you have a strong anti-combo Green dude and some green lands. Either way, Teeg is good for Miracles if you're going that direction. It's hard to say what, if anything, will go away. Teeg messes with a lot of random things and being mildly green doesn't weaken you that much extra to Wasteland. IMO, this deck already flounders to wastes/blood moons a lot of the time depending which half of the manabase you draw.
Fetches ~= basics as long as you're not greedy. If you make the deck more green you'll have to start finding consistency engines and become maverick. If you stick with the 3-card splash (or w/e) you can dabble without issue. I was doing the same thing in DGA by splashing blue only for Thopter Foundry, and the deck's mana felt fine despite having a mild green (DRS) and mild blue (Foundry) splash. Only got wasted out by lands and I had something like two basics (but 9 fetches IIRC.)
TL;DR-> Don't worry about it, the splash doesn't weaken you much if you're not greedy about it.
Alrighty guys, I'd like to stimulate some sideboarding discussion, as many people have said they need help on that front. I'm going to pose a question about a common matchup without sharing my thoughts on the matter, and after about a day, I'll give my "answer" to the question. If this goes well, we can make it a recurring thing. For the purposes of the question, assume you are playing your own list.
Do you sideboard in Council's Judgment against Burn? Why or why not?
Just saw the meta game breakdown for the philly open. http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/3157_day_2_metagame_breakdown.html
Death and Taxes well represented and Absolute Law is good against the 2 most popular decks.
By the way, considering Mindcensor: I think he's a perfectly reasonable choice to have at almost any time, especially if you aren't a fan of Spirit of the Labyrinth, because you'll still have good Elves-hate maindeck.
34th: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78740
46th: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78720
50th: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78712
74th: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78469
100th: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78515
102th: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78526
110th: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78668
113th: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78719
116th: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=78511
Round 1: 1-2 vs Infect
In game one, he was on the play and I took 9 infect on turn 2, and the remainder on turn 4. In game three, I died on turn three through a Canonist. Can't be mad. My opponent drew his 1-of Null Rod in both post-board games, which was a little rough.
Round 2: 2-1 vs Deathblade
In games 1 and 3, I just out-tempo'd my opponent and ran him over with fliers while he stumbled to deal with my disruption. Game 2 was lost to an early TNN and Jitte combo.
Round 3: 2-1 vs BUG Midrange
I lost game 1 to a turn 4 TNN equipped with Jitte; I was not expecting that combo to come out of the gates so quickly, and could have beaten it with one more turn's notice. Games two and three were pretty straight-forward, as I had additional answers to Goyfs.
Round 4: 2-0 vs Reanimator
It's hard to lose this matchup when you have 7 pieces of graveyard hate, 3 Karakas, and a bunch of things that are just generally a pain for that deck. I raced a turn 2 (on the play) Inkwell Leviathan. Come at me bro.
Round 5: ID with UR Delver
This ID wasn't 100% safe, but it would require about 6 matches to go against me, so I took the ID and slotted into the top 8 at 7th seed.
Round 6: 2-0 vs UR Delver
Game one: It doesn't matter how many cards you have if Mangara and Mincensor eat all your lands. Game 2: My opponent had to Force of Will my Ethersworn Canonist (cast off of Cavern of Souls) to fill his graveyard enough to Treasure Cruise through a Thalia and a Port...you don't win games where that happens.
Round 7: 2-0 vs Miracles
I played some of the tightest Magic of my life during this round. I don't know how many times you've experienced the pinnacle of D&T play, but there is this strange euphoric feeling you get when you completely dominate your opponent and strategically lay out traps for them that *seem* like the correct play. To make a long story short, I assembled the Mangara lock though Counterbalance, Top, Jace, and Izzet Staticaster by using two Thalia as bait over the course of three turns. Basically I tried to get in a position where he had a tapped Staticaster at his end step to kill my second Thalia (he used two Swords and the Staticaster activations to get both), allowing me to Vial in the Mangara while he was both tapped out and the Staticaster was tapped. Once the lock was assembled, I ate Jace, his Counterbalance, and got to work on his lands. After another trap to make sure he could not cast the Terminus he Brainstormed back, and yet another tricky scenario to invalidate his Entreat, he scooped with only a single white source available to him for the rest of the game, and triple port doing work on his lands.
Round 8: ID vs UWR Stoneblade
My opponent needed the invite, while I didn't, so after a quick redistribution of the prizes, I conceded.
Thoughts:
The Mangara lock was dumb all day and got me out of some binds that perhaps no other card could.
I tried a Relic of Progenitus over the second Rest in Peace today. I'm not sure how I feel about that, but it's nice to have the Relic against Cruise decks.
Aven Mindcensor, Flickerwisp, Brimaz, and Mangara together make moving the vial up to three a pretty safe bet in most stages of the game, and it scares the crap out of people.
8 fliers is fantastic.
I did not miss Spirit. At all.
2 Revoker was enough, but I wouldn't have been sad to have a third.
TNN into Jitte draws when your opponent is on the play are pretty much untouchable without an immediate answer.
Cavern of Souls should become more of a staple than it is currently. I would play four if it didn't make Council's Judgment, StP, and sideboard cards so difficult to cast.
I'd like to point out one of my decklists from August: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=71374
This deck was pre-Treasure Cruise, and this was right around when the time when BUG and RUG were on the rise again. This deck was brutally fast and just ended the game with Crusader. I think that his stock is a touch worse now, but he would have been great in the BUG matchup. My opponent was very threatened by Brimaz, but the issue is that Brimaz will trade with a Goyf, not wall one all day or attack through it.
Now we should discuss Mangara/Mindcensor vs Spirit/Teeg builds. Mangara is a great catch-all and Mindcensor is obviously strong against decks that rely heavily on searching libraries like Elves, Stoneblade, Reanimator and so on.
Spirit/Teeg on the other hand attacks brainstorm, treasure cruise, force of will, Storm, Miracles, Elves, etc.
We still run cards that make brainstorm a lot worse, like Thalia and run cards that deal with force of will and counterbalance by making our spells uncounterable. We still don't have much way to deal with terminus. I get completely hosed by that card so often.
What do you guys think is the better build? Are there any other options to shore up these matches?
The build like the one I played excels against midrange decks which require some setup time and decks that rely on permanents to do anything important. For example, decks like MUD, Tezzerator, and Deathblade are pretty soft to my build. My build is also pretty well situated for the mirror, assuming my Wastelands are pointed at opposing Karakas.
The cost of playing my version is that it has a higher density of three drops than the Teeg/Spirit build, causing it to come out of the gates a touch slower, making it a tad bit worse against things like ANT, TES, and Elves.
Miracles probably ends up being a wash in the end, as all four of those cards are pretty good against the deck.
If you look towards the top of this page, you'll see that 9 decklists made day two of the most recent open, making it one of the most successful decks (6.78% of the day 2 field) other than UR Delver (17.8% of the field) and Jeskai Stoneblade (7.63% of the day 2 field). Additional, our seasoned forum regulars have been making an absolute tear at their respective local events in the past few weeks.
UWR at 00:10:35
http://www.twitch.tv/southfloridamagic/b/610240748
http://www.twitch.tv/southfloridamagic/b/610319304
Miracles at
3:01:45
http://www.twitch.tv/southfloridamagic/b/610240748
http://www.twitch.tv/southfloridamagic/b/610298483
[Warning - Game 1 lasts half an hour as I get counterbalance locked turn 3, can't play through the lock, and cant draw a karakas to deal with Clique]
Played ascendancy (2-0), UWR delver (2-1), ant (0-2), ant (2-0), ant (2-0) and miracles (2-1). Meta has been weird lately. Teeg is auto-win against ANT game 1 and shores up a lot of popular local matchups. Miracles lists locally are playing baneslayer post board making cataclysm worse in the matchup. Considering loxodon smiter as a wilt leaf replacement and shaving a cataclsym, as the mana base feels too stretched for cavern currently and it has game against miracles, delver and rock decks (slowly starting to resurge). Never saw library or choke in any games so nothing to report. For the third time in two years I lived the vial on 2 + e tutor + canopy + 2 mana in response to brainstorm/ponder dream in the semis. Considering -1 Cataclysm -1 Tutor + 2 loxodon next time I play this list.
4 Mother of Runes
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Savannah
4 White Fetchlands
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Rest in Peace
1 Graffdigger's Cage
2 Containment Priest
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Choke
1 Sylvan Library
2 Cataclysm
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
I love death and taxes but have too much love for affinity. so instead I got a friend into the deck and we play tons of dnt vs bots and I get raped quite often. so I've come here in hopes of finding what the deck is weak against. I know it's kind of lame but we just play casually-even though our decks are built for competitive play.
I run whip flares and chalice in board but dnt has so many tricks that it doesn't always matter. I've dabbled in expedition map. for grove of burnwillows and pun fire but wasteland kills it quick. any help is greatly appreciated
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You will probably get a better response if you go to the Affinity thread and ask there. The reason I am saying this is because DnT players are not experts on Affinity. They don't know the deck inside and out. In addition to this, Affinity isn't a top tier deck so they don't get to play against it a lot. I know I hardly ever run into it.
What kills Affinity with DnT is all the taxing cards plus Jitte and swords. You essentially need to be attacking with a turn 2 Vault Skirge or Ornithopter (anything that flies) equipped with cranial to have any chance before they start dropping Mothers and Thalia. Wasteland can really ruin your day. Post board with all the artifact removal they board in makes things even worse.
In short, you need to be faster than them. If you haven't killed them by turn 3, you're not going to. Boarding in their equipment that destroys other equipment and pulling that with Stoneforge games 2 and 3 is game over for you. You won't have a cranial lasting long enough to attack with.
It's just a bad matchup, period. But like I said, go to the Affinity sub forum and ask there. Those guys are the ones who have to know all the matchups well. DnT guys don't really need to worry about Affinity because, as I said, it's not a top tier deck.
If you want to ask me specific questions, tell me specifically what problems you're running into playing against DnT and I'll tell you if there is anything specifically that you can do about them.
** EDIT ** Here's a deck that Ashiok Chitturi played to an 11-1 finish. You might want to look into it.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpnj14/artifactaggro
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Aven Mindcensor is a good man in my opinion, but he pretty much failed to do his job that day. My opp's found their land in the top 4, and in the Final, my opponent deftly played around Aven Mindcensor for turn after turn, pressuring me to put out my ground pounders, when I had Mindcensor in hand. He refused to pop his fetches whenever I had three mana open. Consequently, he got to six lands, then seven, and I finally had to play Mindcensor because all my previous creatures were dead.
Possibly, I could have just "sorcery-speeded" Mindcensor out on Turn 3, when opp had two uncracked fetch lands out. But that line of play seemed wrong. In short, I got outplayed in Mindcensor.
As for Teeg, I don't want to revisit my screeching diatribes on this thread, but I think to run him with the typical DnT manabase, you need to adopt a whole different paradigm. I routinely kept hands like: Plains, Plains, Wasteland, Gaddock Teeg, Thalia, Mother of Runes, random spell. I never had a problem getting Teeg out WHEN I WANTED TO. Is it a dead card in hand? Maybe. But by the time I got my other cards on line, doing their advanced guard business, I would find the green-colored land or the Aether Vial. Maybe I'm lucky. I dunno. But it has always worked for me. Thanks for asking.
J
-Etched champion is good
-Consider running Revoker to keep equipment offline
-Some Affinity run their own SFMs. If you decide to do this; a simple Sword of Light and Shadow should drastically improve your effectiveness. Alternatively, a Manriki Gusari could help a lot.
-Whipflare, as mentioned, is good
I notice that Rev and Jitte/Gusari are all present in the 11-1 finish's side. I liked EE against D&T sometimes; simply because the Vial->Mom and SFM->Jitte lines are so good and prevalent that I got a lot of easy 2-for-1s that were unexpected.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
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Also, as to Trevorphysics' question as to which build-type is better between Spirit/Teeg and Mangara/Mindcensor... none of those cards need to be mutually exclusive. I've never gone under 1x Mangara in any build I've done, and 2x Teeg seems pretty comfy right now, but that has no bearing as to whether I'll play Spirit or Mindcensor or Brimaz or Mirran or Qasali Pridemage on any given day. All those cards are at this point Legacy-proven, so you just have to "guess" right that your configuration is ideal for the day you show up to a tourney. That said, I do think "ideal" right now does equal having Teeg in, but really, any of the other choices for flex spots can be argued for to high heaven and be in the right. There is no wrong answer with any of those. All that matters is that you play well (and hopefully draw lucky too).
Fetches ~= basics as long as you're not greedy. If you make the deck more green you'll have to start finding consistency engines and become maverick. If you stick with the 3-card splash (or w/e) you can dabble without issue. I was doing the same thing in DGA by splashing blue only for Thopter Foundry, and the deck's mana felt fine despite having a mild green (DRS) and mild blue (Foundry) splash. Only got wasted out by lands and I had something like two basics (but 9 fetches IIRC.)
TL;DR-> Don't worry about it, the splash doesn't weaken you much if you're not greedy about it.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
Do you sideboard in Council's Judgment against Burn? Why or why not?