They can still cast cards into a chalice if that's what they need to do to turn on cruise and cast more cards into a chalice. It's definitely not the answer to cruise although it does slow it down by reducing how much fodder they can draw to power into a cruise.
So they can draw more dead cards?
If they're spending few turns worth of resources without any benefit to draw 3 cards I doubt they'll be able to make up for the tempo they will have lost.
I'm firmly against Teeg as altering our mana base hinders the decks consistency and resilience. There are, as Finn suggested, better answers to TC without delving into green and making our mana extremely susceptible to Wasteland and Bloodmoon strategies.
I just can't personally picture dropping chalice past turn 1 against a blue deck with a full hand when we can hate them out much more effectively with cards like spirit to just prevent extra card draw, Thalia, port and wasteland to tax and restrict their mana. With a chalice I really don't feel I want to shut off swords, vial and mom if I don't have them early and they probably boarded into artifact removal
You have to be careful about evaluating cards tat "have application" against this and that. Teeg is good against Miracles and the one High Tide. I might leave it in against Dredge too. But it gets sided out against everything else in that top 16. That is the danger with him. He's narrow.
Anyway, we keep bandying about ideas. We have to decide what specifically comes out for what goes in.
You have to be careful about evaluating cards tat "have application" against this and that. Teeg is good against Miracles and the one High Tide. I might leave it in against Dredge too. But it gets sided out against everything else in that top 16. That is the danger with him. He's narrow.
Anyway, we keep bandying about ideas. We have to decide what specifically comes out for what goes in.
The same could very well be said of Spirit: it's application is narrow.
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"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
Spirit is an enchantment and can be tutored via enlightened tutor, just saying. For teeg (that is good at shutting down FoW, combo, etc.) you want to run Maverick with its four GSZ.
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As humans, we have a tendency to cling to ideologies. Any positive set of beliefs can quickly turn malevolent once treated as ideology and not an honest intellectual or experiential pursuit of greater truth. Ideology does in entire economic systems and countries, causes religions to massacre thousands, turns human rights movements into authoritarian sects and makes fools out of humanity’s most brilliant minds. Einstein famously wasted the second half of his career trying to calculate a cosmological constant that didn’t exist because “God doesn’t play dice.”
My opinion is, if you want to play Tegg, just go to Maverick. Really, splashing green? If the problem is Elves, just keep the Aven Mindcensors. There are a few others decks out there that Aven is hard lock than Tegg, like 12Post(that, what will Tegg do agains them?). More than that, with no Avens, the numbers of flyers go to 5 +-, and then if you face TNN decks, you're in a bad situation. Agains elves, Tegg dies do decay, so as Aven, so why put the green splash? To get wasted/stifled? And for miracles, plowshares kills Tegg (oh, but mothers protects it)ok, but what about Council's? Kills Tegg, and Karakas bounces it, and isnt always you will see a wasteland. If you attack with Tegg there's a chance of a Vendilion/Snapcaster coming just to block it! And, as said, you will have a bad time agains Delver/TNN decks.
Tegg isn't a good option IN THIS DECK agains Elves/Miracles. If he was just white, then its insane, but the green splash can make a mess.
You have to run one basic Forest if you are going to test Teeg. Allow yourself two more slots for lands which produce G/W. So either Savannah(s) and/or Horizon Canopy{s}. Personally I run all four Windswept Heath's but that is b/c I run the basic forest which the other white fetches would not be able to grab, an obvious play around wasteland scenario!
Aven Mindcensor can blank on both GSZ and NO though, which happens to me far too often. I like that it's a flier but I don't like that it's up to luck and yet another x/1 in our deck.
We already run 11/12 non basics, Wasteland is a real thing, but they are more likely to crunch your Karakas.
Dies to removal is just a bad argument. Everything in our deck dies to removal, most, multiple types of removal (bolt, decay, STP, gut shot, and the list goes on and on)
I tested moar Teeg last night against a field of decks and will post my thoughts on that later. But for now, off to walk my dog
My argument to "Tegg dies to removal" was a little off. Let me explain better:
Teggs dies to removal, AS Aven dies too. So, why the splash?
Aven has X/1, but has flying. Tegg is 2/2, but in the g1 agains TNN, it only stop FoW/Jace/Hardcast Batterskull. If you are to connect the first counter on jitte (agains elves), the Aven won't get blocked and won't die. So, the lock is still on.
How many times D&T players got stuck on two "non-white" lands and a Mirran/Flicker/Council's in hand? Putting savannas/forest just will make it worst.
I think that, we already have our tools agains miracles.
Agains elves, you can always put one more Cage in the SB. Don't think 2 is too much.
If you want a drop 2, put Leonin Arbiter. Really, not joking, it can really be a lock agains elves if they have to pay more mana to do their shenanigans. A simples fetch land becomes "Pay 2, sac: search."
I don't understand why testing teeg Is a bad idea. If it doesn't work, we will botch it, but innovation never happens from nay sayers. Why don't we, as a community, just try testing it? If all of us puts our two cents in, we will figure it out instead of flat out denying it. I think our discussion should be followed up by "I tested games against bug and..." Whether we agree with its inclusion or not? If we don't, all our debate becomes simply theoretical. Is it actually week against blood moon if adding a color? Is teeg actually better than sotl?
Small testing put together yields big results. Our deck is built on the concept of small, underpowered creatures working together right? Perhaps we can do the same? Or am I too Japanese?
Small testing put together yields big results. Our deck is built on the concept of small, underpowered creatures working together right? Perhaps we can do the same? Or am I too Japanese?
Perhaps you are, but I appreciate the sentiment (and flavor connection).
So far Teeg has been somewhere between decent and very good. I have yet to be disappointed by him hitting play, but I am also not stealing as many wins as I thought I would.
As far as what I am taking out, in my list it has been the Mirran Crusaders. I am uncertain as to if this is correct, but I refuse to cut Mangara and Serra Avenger regularly pulls her weight.
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"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
Perhaps you are, but I appreciate the sentiment (and flavor connection).
So far Teeg has been somewhere between decent and very good. I have yet to be disappointed by him hitting play, but I am also not stealing as many wins as I thought I would.
As far as what I am taking out, in my list it has been the Mirran Crusaders. I am uncertain as to if this is correct, but I refuse to cut Mangara and Serra Avenger regularly pulls her weight.
I am in exact agreement with you on Teeg. Not disappointed, but NOT STEALING as many wins as I thought I would either. I find this a little puzzling tbh. I cut Mangara to keep my crusaders because I generally think Crusader finishes quicker against the field. Again, we could debate this and I am not saying either way is better, I think it comes down to playstyle on that one.
I have been stifled once in cracking a fetch (which cost me the game) as I didn't have vial and no way to get Teeg out. This is an acceptable statistic IMO since it's once in 25 matches now. 4% odds on being stifled IMO is about par in a major tournament, ie, it doesn't happen enough to really matter.
I realize I am playing with fire with the solo forest, but so far it hasn't been an issue in terms of having double white. Keep in mind, I am running Land Tax as well. It's a lot of variables happening at the same time but it has done nothing but smooth my draws, allowing me to get away with said forest.
Whether you run crusader/brimaz/mangara/flickerwisps/resto angel etc, double white is a must in this deck.
As you can see I am banking heavily on the ability for Spirit of the Labyrinth to pull a heavy load versus an even stronger blue field. After fiddling with Treasure Cruise and facing Death and Taxes both with and without Spirits (also with and without Rest in Peace, Chalice of the Void, and Ethersworn Canonist), I feel strongly that we need something like this to keep us on top.
Chalice was the best by a decent margin. It shut me down almost completely. But my opponent often was afraid to cast it whenever I started off with a creature. It is the nuclear option. I only had one on hand, so I actually asked my friend to start the game with it to test it. Take that info as you will. Spirit was next in effectiveness because it was actually not narrow against me. This is a first in my experience with this card. Keep in mind that I had built a Delver deck that was a lot like Huang's, but I had three Faithless Looting in there instead of Swiftspears and a few other minor changes. The point here is that Treasure Cruise is not quite without building constraints. It is close, but they have to have a higher cantrip count than say Delver or Snapcaster demand. I did NOT like facing the Spirit. I had Fire//Ice, which was great against D+T, but I was generally in a panic when a Spirit was around to the point that I was searching out removal spells (Bolt and Fire) instead of Treasure Cruise. This more than anything cost me games. There may be a better way to face D+T than I learned in the ten or twelve games I tested. Ethersworn Canonist was a noticeable speedbump, but not awful. I think it is better when the opponent has more sorceries. I had a lot of instants. Not sure there. Rest in Peace was not especially good. It may be better if different kinds of decks start adopting Treasure Cruise. TC seems kinda good in Dredge, Sneak and Show, and Reanimator. Obviously RiP is better against some of those.
I have grown to like Cage against Elves because it costs one and they can't Zenith the Reclamation Sage for a quick out. The 1 mana is a huge deal.
If Miracles can not profitably run Treasure Cruise, my hope is that it will lose ground to Delver decks that do. If that also does not happen, I will have to rethink this approach.
There is another thing here. I do not have the grasp of the format that I once did. Even if my sb choices are sound, I do not have the exact numbers down these days.
Biggest flaw with your deck IMO is that most of the creatures are x/1 There are too many -1 effects in the current meta game to run this list effectively IMO
If we really want to crap on certain decks post-board: main deck your canonists, and sideboard 1-2x restoration angel. Restoration angel has been played in response to vintage jace decks for a while (IN VINTAGE! WHERE BLACK LOTUS EXISTS), and they sure as hell aren't gonna counterbalance out of a 4 drop!
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Death and taxes has still been topping. Why is everyone rushing to make these changes? New cards have still barely hit the format, there is no need to pull a complete overhaul on how the deck runs or is built. Cage, spirit, mindcensor and canonist all do a fine job at nerfing the elves game plan long enough to get a jitte online. That isn't even including revoker and swords to also pick and choose what to stop from happening. If anything we should probably be worried about cards that nerf/kill elves since that is what is going to be running around soon enough.
Examples (Not including miracles options) Night of souls' betrayal Engineered Plague Toxic Deluge Massacre Zealous Persecution
Etc.
From the list of usual suspects, teeg only stops 2 of them. That isn't including many cards that I am sure people could add if they chose to. I left out miracles because a decent portion of cards that hit elves also slow/soft lock miracles in a game.
If we really want to crap on certain decks post-board: main deck your canonists, and sideboard 1-2x restoration angel. Restoration angel has been played in response to vintage jace decks for a while (IN VINTAGE! WHERE BLACK LOTUS EXISTS), and they sure as hell aren't gonna counterbalance out of a 4 drop!
Vintage and Legacy are hardly analogous. There was a time when Slash Panther was making some waves in Shops lists, but obviously we aren't going to see that in Legacy ever.
I do like Resto. Don't get me wrong. But I wouldn't say it's at the same level in a format sans Sol Ring and Mana Crypt.
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"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
It's played at around the same time in terms of tempo between formats (vintage has faster jaces, but also has faster restoration angels), and the card is an absolute blowout against control decks that are willing to tap out for jace (it's also good against supreme verdict because you don't lose as much tempo0. Not maindeckable, but you can side it in for slower matchups to give you a bit of an edge.
Slash panther is bad in legacy because it is Slash panther in a format with a lot more creatures. Restoration angel is a better creature than slash panther in nearly every single deck (except vintage shops) that plays creatures and wants to kill jace/blow out people with creature awesomeness.
Also, flying + flash is better than pure haste. I'm not saying its only use is a jace killer, but it's a damn good use.
Modern: Modern is Bad
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Even if you are gripping a cataclysm they at least have to answer your teeg. When they answer him, you can drop cataclysm on them before replaying teeg
Biggest flaw with your deck IMO is that most of the creatures are x/1 There are too many -1 effects in the current meta game to run this list effectively IMO
This is a good point. I tend to get into trouble against those things from time to time, as all my builds take this chance. But this is a conscious decision to double down on the strengths of D+T. I am not professing to have THE ANSWER (It's 42, btw) but there is advantage to be gleaned by clamping harder with smaller dudes. I would not mind a Crusade creature. That would be a *****in' solution.
For all the people who say Teeg doesn't do much outside of Miracles and Elves, I am re-posting this with some amendments, but it should be clear that Teeg is not as limited as people seem to think. This is not an argument in favor of using him, rather I am making the point that not using him is probably more determined by the jazzing with the manabase than his "narrowness."
Also, if you run Teeg, I'm not sure you run Mangara of Corondor because maybe there is too much overlap in matches you want them in.
Gaddock Teeg is a fine move against several problem decks, and I don't know that he loses much. He seems meh against aggro decks except Nic-Fit/Nic-Shift.
Adds to these matches, to varying degrees, as well as Elves and Miracles:
Sneak and Show (Sneak Attack)
High Tide (can't cast Time Spiral, Force of Will or Turnabout)
ANT/TES (can't cast Ad Nauseum, Ill-Gotten Gains, or Tendrils of Agony)
Omni-Tell (can't cast Omniscience or Jace)
Tezzerator (Jace, Force, Karn Liberated, Damnation)
Nic-Fit (stops GSZ, Birthing Pod)
Nic-Shift (GSZ, Scapeshift)
BUG Control, Stoneblade and Deathblade (Jace, Force of Will)
All Delver (Force of Will)
BUG Delver/Team America (Massacre)
redtwister:
Also stops Jace in Sneak and Show, often run as a 2 of.
I really think there are 3 different ways to play this deck right now:
1) The traditional control version with Mangara
2) The more recent beatdown variants which employs crusader/brimaz/Resto etc
3) The Green Splash version - under construction but seemingly positive against 2 very prominent decks, yet still great vs the field
YOUR meta and play style determines which of the three you will play. Arguments can be made for all 3 versions.
For those of you not sold on the green splash, my thoughts are it's roguish to the point where you would likely surprise a lot of people at a major tournament right now. No one is ready for Teeg in this deck.
I will be testing heavily this weekend, there will be no shortage of buddies coming over as I am supplying the booze
So they can draw more dead cards?
If they're spending few turns worth of resources without any benefit to draw 3 cards I doubt they'll be able to make up for the tempo they will have lost.
I'm firmly against Teeg as altering our mana base hinders the decks consistency and resilience. There are, as Finn suggested, better answers to TC without delving into green and making our mana extremely susceptible to Wasteland and Bloodmoon strategies.
Currently playing:
Legacy
WW Death and Taxes(Rest in Peace)EDH
RR Krenko, Mob Boss
WW Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Anyway, we keep bandying about ideas. We have to decide what specifically comes out for what goes in.
The same could very well be said of Spirit: it's application is narrow.
Currently playing:
Legacy
WW Death and Taxes(Rest in Peace)EDH
RR Krenko, Mob Boss
WW Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Tegg isn't a good option IN THIS DECK agains Elves/Miracles. If he was just white, then its insane, but the green splash can make a mess.
Aven Mindcensor can blank on both GSZ and NO though, which happens to me far too often. I like that it's a flier but I don't like that it's up to luck and yet another x/1 in our deck.
We already run 11/12 non basics, Wasteland is a real thing, but they are more likely to crunch your Karakas.
Dies to removal is just a bad argument. Everything in our deck dies to removal, most, multiple types of removal (bolt, decay, STP, gut shot, and the list goes on and on)
I tested moar Teeg last night against a field of decks and will post my thoughts on that later. But for now, off to walk my dog
Teggs dies to removal, AS Aven dies too. So, why the splash?
Aven has X/1, but has flying. Tegg is 2/2, but in the g1 agains TNN, it only stop FoW/Jace/Hardcast Batterskull. If you are to connect the first counter on jitte (agains elves), the Aven won't get blocked and won't die. So, the lock is still on.
How many times D&T players got stuck on two "non-white" lands and a Mirran/Flicker/Council's in hand? Putting savannas/forest just will make it worst.
I think that, we already have our tools agains miracles.
Agains elves, you can always put one more Cage in the SB. Don't think 2 is too much.
If you want a drop 2, put Leonin Arbiter. Really, not joking, it can really be a lock agains elves if they have to pay more mana to do their shenanigans. A simples fetch land becomes "Pay 2, sac: search."
Small testing put together yields big results. Our deck is built on the concept of small, underpowered creatures working together right? Perhaps we can do the same? Or am I too Japanese?
BGElvesBG and BUGNissa ElvesBUG Faithful Elfer since May 1st, 2015
Results: SCG IQ Top 8, Monthly Modern Masters Top 4
Perhaps you are, but I appreciate the sentiment (and flavor connection).
So far Teeg has been somewhere between decent and very good. I have yet to be disappointed by him hitting play, but I am also not stealing as many wins as I thought I would.
As far as what I am taking out, in my list it has been the Mirran Crusaders. I am uncertain as to if this is correct, but I refuse to cut Mangara and Serra Avenger regularly pulls her weight.
Currently playing:
Legacy
WW Death and Taxes(Rest in Peace)EDH
RR Krenko, Mob Boss
WW Thalia, Heretic Cathar
I am in exact agreement with you on Teeg. Not disappointed, but NOT STEALING as many wins as I thought I would either. I find this a little puzzling tbh. I cut Mangara to keep my crusaders because I generally think Crusader finishes quicker against the field. Again, we could debate this and I am not saying either way is better, I think it comes down to playstyle on that one.
I have been stifled once in cracking a fetch (which cost me the game) as I didn't have vial and no way to get Teeg out. This is an acceptable statistic IMO since it's once in 25 matches now. 4% odds on being stifled IMO is about par in a major tournament, ie, it doesn't happen enough to really matter.
I realize I am playing with fire with the solo forest, but so far it hasn't been an issue in terms of having double white. Keep in mind, I am running Land Tax as well. It's a lot of variables happening at the same time but it has done nothing but smooth my draws, allowing me to get away with said forest.
Whether you run crusader/brimaz/mangara/flickerwisps/resto angel etc, double white is a must in this deck.
@Spirit is narrow: Not like it used to be. Elves still sucks with this approach, but 2x Teeg was hardly going to change that anyway.
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia. Guardian of Thraben
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara of Corondor
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Horizon Canopy
9 Plains
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Council's Judgement
2 Wilt-leaf Liege
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Rest In Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
As you can see I am banking heavily on the ability for Spirit of the Labyrinth to pull a heavy load versus an even stronger blue field. After fiddling with Treasure Cruise and facing Death and Taxes both with and without Spirits (also with and without Rest in Peace, Chalice of the Void, and Ethersworn Canonist), I feel strongly that we need something like this to keep us on top.
Chalice was the best by a decent margin. It shut me down almost completely. But my opponent often was afraid to cast it whenever I started off with a creature. It is the nuclear option. I only had one on hand, so I actually asked my friend to start the game with it to test it. Take that info as you will. Spirit was next in effectiveness because it was actually not narrow against me. This is a first in my experience with this card. Keep in mind that I had built a Delver deck that was a lot like Huang's, but I had three Faithless Looting in there instead of Swiftspears and a few other minor changes. The point here is that Treasure Cruise is not quite without building constraints. It is close, but they have to have a higher cantrip count than say Delver or Snapcaster demand. I did NOT like facing the Spirit. I had Fire//Ice, which was great against D+T, but I was generally in a panic when a Spirit was around to the point that I was searching out removal spells (Bolt and Fire) instead of Treasure Cruise. This more than anything cost me games. There may be a better way to face D+T than I learned in the ten or twelve games I tested. Ethersworn Canonist was a noticeable speedbump, but not awful. I think it is better when the opponent has more sorceries. I had a lot of instants. Not sure there. Rest in Peace was not especially good. It may be better if different kinds of decks start adopting Treasure Cruise. TC seems kinda good in Dredge, Sneak and Show, and Reanimator. Obviously RiP is better against some of those.
I have grown to like Cage against Elves because it costs one and they can't Zenith the Reclamation Sage for a quick out. The 1 mana is a huge deal.
If Miracles can not profitably run Treasure Cruise, my hope is that it will lose ground to Delver decks that do. If that also does not happen, I will have to rethink this approach.
There is another thing here. I do not have the grasp of the format that I once did. Even if my sb choices are sound, I do not have the exact numbers down these days.
Always respect your opinion.
Biggest flaw with your deck IMO is that most of the creatures are x/1 There are too many -1 effects in the current meta game to run this list effectively IMO
Legacy:WDeath and TaxesW W45-L16-D11 8 Top 8s 15th Scg Oakland
Current Kiln Fiend Count: 153 Please message me if you want to trade me or give me some.
Commission Rezombied to alter some cards, he's awesome!
Examples (Not including miracles options)
Night of souls' betrayal
Engineered Plague
Toxic Deluge
Massacre
Zealous Persecution
Etc.
From the list of usual suspects, teeg only stops 2 of them. That isn't including many cards that I am sure people could add if they chose to. I left out miracles because a decent portion of cards that hit elves also slow/soft lock miracles in a game.
Vintage and Legacy are hardly analogous. There was a time when Slash Panther was making some waves in Shops lists, but obviously we aren't going to see that in Legacy ever.
I do like Resto. Don't get me wrong. But I wouldn't say it's at the same level in a format sans Sol Ring and Mana Crypt.
Currently playing:
Legacy
WW Death and Taxes(Rest in Peace)EDH
RR Krenko, Mob Boss
WW Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Slash panther is bad in legacy because it is Slash panther in a format with a lot more creatures. Restoration angel is a better creature than slash panther in nearly every single deck (except vintage shops) that plays creatures and wants to kill jace/blow out people with creature awesomeness.
Also, flying + flash is better than pure haste. I'm not saying its only use is a jace killer, but it's a damn good use.
Legacy:WDeath and TaxesW W45-L16-D11 8 Top 8s 15th Scg Oakland
Current Kiln Fiend Count: 153 Please message me if you want to trade me or give me some.
Commission Rezombied to alter some cards, he's awesome!
Also, if you run Teeg, I'm not sure you run Mangara of Corondor because maybe there is too much overlap in matches you want them in.
Gaddock Teeg is a fine move against several problem decks, and I don't know that he loses much. He seems meh against aggro decks except Nic-Fit/Nic-Shift.
A small reminder: Gaddock Teeg makes Force of Will and Treasure Cruise un-castable. That improves almost every U match.
Adds to these matches, to varying degrees, as well as Elves and Miracles:
Sneak and Show (Sneak Attack)
High Tide (can't cast Time Spiral, Force of Will or Turnabout)
ANT/TES (can't cast Ad Nauseum, Ill-Gotten Gains, or Tendrils of Agony)
Omni-Tell (can't cast Omniscience or Jace)
Tezzerator (Jace, Force, Karn Liberated, Damnation)
Nic-Fit (stops GSZ, Birthing Pod)
Nic-Shift (GSZ, Scapeshift)
BUG Control, Stoneblade and Deathblade (Jace, Force of Will)
All Delver (Force of Will)
BUG Delver/Team America (Massacre)
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Also stops Jace in Sneak and Show, often run as a 2 of.
I really think there are 3 different ways to play this deck right now:
1) The traditional control version with Mangara
2) The more recent beatdown variants which employs crusader/brimaz/Resto etc
3) The Green Splash version - under construction but seemingly positive against 2 very prominent decks, yet still great vs the field
YOUR meta and play style determines which of the three you will play. Arguments can be made for all 3 versions.
For those of you not sold on the green splash, my thoughts are it's roguish to the point where you would likely surprise a lot of people at a major tournament right now. No one is ready for Teeg in this deck.
I will be testing heavily this weekend, there will be no shortage of buddies coming over as I am supplying the booze
@Finn I really like the second Grafdigger's Cage in the sb, btw.