MTG Salvation

Quote from monovfox »

Best way to beat elves/blue decks is canonist. I 'm telling you, dilluting the deck is the last thing we want to be doing.

If Canonist alone nerfed Elves, we would have a good record post board against them, which we clearly don't. Again, not sure Teeg is the way to go, but since were talking about all different kinds of ways to make the deck better, testing, rather than dimissing (until proven otherwise) is the way to go. The deck needs to evolve as the meta is changing. Surely you can see that (even if you aren't onboard with a splash).

The only way decks stay top tier for longer than 12 months is to evolve. I remember Sneak and Show being virtually unbeatable. It's not anymore, the meta adjusts. Elves is the combo deck to beat.

To add on to what you said, spellskite wasn't always a piece of DnT and although most people don't particularly run them, monovfox swears by them. It was a change he decided to make and it worked. Teeg could be the same deal. I definitely agree that just adding teeg is beneficial while not changing much about DnT other than the mana base. We already run a "green" creature in wilt-leaf liege. Why not try out teeg? I personally don't feel as though I want to test that G splash for teeg, but I definitely understand why others want to. I will probably change my list to add in a couple of mindcensers as well as canonist back into the 75.

While I don't think this will work in the long run, I do see the merits in adding Teeg to the deck. Will test it a bit, but it hurts to see that my Dust Bowl + Flagstones of Trokair combo will have to be shelved just to have a playable manabase. W/g and Dust Bowl serve different purposes, and each are better against different metagames. So time will tell which meta ends up being more prevalent.

Also I want to add something else to the Gut Shot / Sunlance discussion: GS doesn't do nearly as much against Goblin Guide, Swiftspear or Insectile Aberration so against quick aggro decks like Burn and UR Delver it will bite you in the ass, and that's not even considering the 2 life loss. So adding that to the previously stated fact that GS doesn't hit DRS I think we may have a winner at least in the current meta. GS is only really relevant in the mirror, Infect and against Elves. Sunlance doesn't do squat in the mirror but it's otherwise much more useful against a much broader array of matchups than GS. Just my 2 cents.

Quote from monovfox »

Best way to beat elves/blue decks is canonist. I 'm telling you, dilluting the deck is the last thing we want to be doing.

I don't really see Swords/BokChoy's lists as "diluting" anything. Yes, we become a little more susceptible to Wasteland and Stifle. That's about the extent of it.

I also do not agree that Canonist is how we beat Blue nor Elves. All Elves has to do is cast one Natural Order with enough dudes in play, as others have said. However, Canonist does give us a unique approach to handling this Treasure Cruise turd WotC has dropped in our laps: by slowing the spells per turn we slow their progress towards Delve. It's not a perfect approach, but if this Gaddock Teeg development turns sour we can return to it.

I, however, still like Sword's thinking: if there wasn't a G on his mana cost, Gaddock would be in the main deck, at least as a two-of. His effect is absurd, his body is decent for it (a 2/2 is indeed rare for a deck full of "hate bears") and he syncs with Karakas. Don't tell me this is a creature you wouldn't want in D&T if he was 1W or even WW.

To aid in this research process, I'll start working on a more Cavern-focused approach. Unfortunately, Teeg is a Kithkin Advisor.

The list will look like this, roughly:

I am going to have to agree with barook. I don't think the extra cavern as a way to drop teeg is where we want to be, him being a kithkin advisor. I definitely think that the fetchlands/savannah is the best approach to playing teeg. At least savannah allows us to cast a swords. I definitely think the lists posted previously are the best option. Personally as I have said, I don't want a G splash to be necessary, but having the savannah isn't going to kill us where we want teeg (elves, miracles) as they do not disrupt opposing mana base.

@Barook,

I likely will run a third Avenger. This slot is up for grabs but avenger seems strong here

Nevermore is something that I brought up on the previous page. I suppose the issue it has where teeg does not have an issue is that nevermore can only shut off either natural order or GSZ. Teeg shuts off both which is important to this match up.

Miracles also has venser to deal with nevermore which is certainly a viable option considering they have so much digging power. But shutting off terminus definitely gives us a lot more play against then early in the game before they can dig up and cast a venser.

Nevermore at the very least can shut off natural order, which I have found to be the biggest threat against elves. Sure they can combo off a bit, revoker can help with nerfing that. It isn't a horrible idea against elves either. But I definitely agree it has it's uses.

If we are considering a splash I am curious if meddling mage would be a better option over teeg as cavern on human is a very viable option for us to cast mage, mom, thalia, crusader, managara, etc. Mage doesn't stop both order and GSZ but it can at least stop 1 of them. Just a little idea/food for thought for the splash conversation. It can also name terminus.

I'll try the Green splash at my next tournament. My problem matchups has always been Miracles/Elves, and Gaddock Teeg's effects have always been a favorite of mine but for the casting cost. If it bombs it bombs, but its nice to see fresh ideas.

I'll go 4 fetches and 2 Savannah.

With the fetches, I'd recommend using all 4 just to ward off Pithing Needle, which Miracles is fond of bringing in.

Hope this whole touching green thing works. I just bought a Savannah, two fetches and two teegs. Well, if it doesn't work, I will just keep em for the future. They are bound to be useful someday.

Quote from SwordsToTimeshares »

With the fetches, I'd recommend using all 4 just to ward off Pithing Needle, which Miracles is fond of bringing in.

Yeah, doing that. Was wondering why everyone was using Windswept Heath x4 when any white fetch will do.

In practice games so far Teeg has worked well, especially with mother of runes protection vs. Miracles. Still need Canonist alongside Teeg vs. Elves or they'll just Glimpse and hardcast Behemoth.

So far I like Teeg, though I still get 1 out of 10 games where Teeg is in my hands uncastable. I also give opposing Deathrite Shaman more food as I have fetches of my own.


Given the legend count is up again, shall we go back to 4 Karakas?

I tested against Elves last night as well. My build was a little different then what I posted earlier. I still had Land Tax in my deck (as I was testing that prior to the green splash talk). I kept Land Tax in there. Don't need to repeat myself on it's merits/pitfalls. With a single Forest in there, well it really smooths out the draw now.

Used only 1 forest, 1 savannah and 1 Horizon Canopy. Tried a 4th Karakas, didn't like it, but probably b/c I have been on 3 for quite some time now.
I ran 4 Heath b/c playing the forest means I want options to guarrantee that I always have green. Wasteland may not be played in Elves, but it is in so many other decks.

Thoughts on Teeg. It's a beast when you get it down early. If you Mom and Canonist follow as well you are on your way to victory. You just need to dodge Cabal Therapy and Abrupt Decay post board. This was a small sample size so YMMV.

If Teeg didn't hit cards across many decks, I wouldn't bother, but since it does and it helps battle the best combo deck currently in Legacy, more testing is needed.



Here is my list for reference

I don't play D&T myself but I was interested to see Angel of Jubilation as a 2-of in the SB of a deck that won a 29-person tournament in Germany.

Quote from BasqueRootwalla »

I don't play D&T myself but I was interested to see Angel of Jubilation as a 2-of in the SB of a deck that won a 29-person tournament in Germany.

An interesting approach, but I think Wilt-Leaf Liege is better most of the time

By the time Angel of Jubilation lands, an opponent has likely Natural Ordered in Elves or fetched multiple times. Other than that it looks like a fun evasive card.

Quote from Barook »

Running Land Tax in the board eliminates many of its potential drawbacks since it can be brought in for specific match-ups/on the draw where it has the highest impact. Although I wonder if running it with only 6 basics is still worth it. The basic Forest could be problematic, too, since you cut a white source for that. 15 white sources are agreed upon for good reason.

I agree. The reason I ran the basic forest was to protect myself from Wasteland (against other decks), because it wouldn't be realistic to only test against Elves with a mana base you wouldn't actually use in a tournament. It won't take long for the meta to discover what were doing if it catches on and becomes the way to go. The mana base is tricky. I also am leery of life loss against aggro decks like burn when we run fetches. I find with this deck I win a ton of matches with less than 5 life. Obviously if I have some life gain then the loss of life is irrelevant.

Quote from SugaCereal »

Will definately be interesting to see.

One thing, concerning the life-loss, that I have been also wondering lately/testing when I (rarely) get the chance, is MD SoLaS. Whereas SoFaI gives us edge against TNN, at least in my local meta (and thus I bring it up) TNN is/has been on decline clearly, and Pro Black+White can and has been significant and even more relevant. Never to mention that SoLaS kind of "smooths" out the draws in the sense that your gas comes back if removed, even if you will draw land. And it also gets some life back, which could potentially matter in aggro/burn match-ups where, even if we would not have Pro-Red, should they burn our creatures they already spell themselves a losing curve and if they burn us straight to the face we can put up a race.

Just my thoughts @Snobby

I have been testing SoLS and found it lacking. You want Batterskull over it most of the time Maybe as a fourth equipment, SoLS could come back into the fold, but I am afraid of having equipment in play with nothing to attach it to. Back when Maverick was big, SoLS did a lot to help the matchup but now I am uncertain if it does enough. In Teeg builds I could see it, but only because Batterskull becomes uncastable with the Old Man out.

@BokChoy: Land Tax looks good, I was thinking the same myself as Cataclysm becomes dead with Teeg out.

@other T&T testers: yeah, Cavern build is no bueno. I am already on the four fetch, one canopy, two green land plan. So far it has been pretty good. Also, **** treasure cruise.

@Barook, very good to hear about your testing. This is what I'd hoped would be the case. Thanks to all helping me do the legwork on finding out the worth of this endeavor.

After another weekly event with the triple Restoration Angel and Dust Bowl build, I can still safely say that both cards have over-performed. Tonight I:

1. Dust Bowl'd four lands against Dead Guy Ale to lock him out of playing spells for the rest of the game.
2. Dust Bowl'd one of my own lands, sacing a Flagstones to avoid four damage from a Price of Progress.
3. Restoration Angel'd a Flickerwisp to blink an opposing Pithing Needle on Jitte to get an attack in and remove an opposing Mother of Runes and Dark Confidant.

I will say that the Burn matchup seems worse now that I'm running many more non-basics, but Restoration Angel is a threat/trick that can get around Eidolon, which is nice. This is the only noticeable downside I have seen so far in experimenting with this build. As strange as it sounds, Restoration Angel is usually closing out games faster than Mirran Crusader did, as she generates so much value upon entering play that my opponent will often lose a card or I'll (basically) draw another. I will be trying this build with a tweaked sideboard for my GPT:NJ this weekend.

Re: Teeg. I have been reading the ideas here. I also just listened to Matt's podcast with Bob Huang in which he espouses the merits of Gaddock Teeg.

It is a fine sideboard card. It is rather good against Miracles. It is nearly dead against anything with the word Delver in the title. I recall being upset at it rather often for its narrowness. Go ahead and test, but don't spend money on cards yet. Once you relegate it to the sideboard, is it really much better than Cage, Spirit, or my new favorite...Chalice?

My fiance has been piloting elves as we finally built it for her. I'll have to test with her more to check these options and see which appear to be more favorable. Including sideboard options.

Quote from Finn »

Re: Teeg. I have been reading the ideas here. I also just listened to Matt's podcast with Bob Huang in which he espouses the merits of Gaddock Teeg.

It is a fine sideboard card. It is rather good against Miracles. It is nearly dead against anything with the word Delver in the title. I recall being upset at it rather often for its narrowness. Go ahead and test, but don't spend money on cards yet. Once you relegate it to the sideboard, is it really much better than Cage, Spirit, or my new favorite...Chalice?

Just one Chalice, or more? I remember that it was decent against Elves when last I experimented with it, but it was difficult to hit without more Tutors. I imagine that it is also pretty good against most Delver things.

Yes. So now it hits eight cards in that deck instead of four.

Spirit turns off 12-20 cards.

Chalice hits most of the deck. Ya gotta get into what makes Treasure Cruise work to truly appreciate a Chalice though. There is a definite engine now and not just a series of cantrips. You might be able to neuter Treasure Cruise with Chalice even though it does not actually touch the card itself.

And it hoses Elves. And it does not need green.

They can still cast cards into a chalice if that's what they need to do to turn on cruise and cast more cards into a chalice. It's definitely not the answer to cruise although it does slow it down by reducing how much fodder they can draw to power into a cruise.