kevin, you do know that those decks are almost virtually the same, right? they are even quite similar with nick's.
Yeah so? I am just posting up on going top 8 tournament results of BUG control by different players, is there something wrong with that? I did the samething in the UW(x) landstill thread despite of the lists being similar or not so I am doing it here. At least I am consistent to what I am doing if you have a problem with it then I am sorry. I would do the samething with you or razefire or anyone else that happens to post in here often so I don't see what your complaining about. I am not mad or offended, I am just stating my intentions.
Repetition like that is a good thing. it solidifies the core and presents various optiions.
+1000, exactly right, I also post up top 8 decklists to also hopefully increase discussion in this thread and keep the interest of existing players into playing this deck and also hopefully grab new players as well.
Hymn, doesn't seem all that bad in a deck like mia's where she ran dark confidant, goyf, and snapcaster. She already gave her reasons for not running hymn(which I agree with) but I could still see other players playing hymn in a deck resembling to what she presented which is somewhere in this thread. Considering, casting hymn can potentially provide a huge tempo boost for you which seems like a reason people would play hymn but I could be wrong as well.
Anyway, I am neutral when it comes to running hymn but at the sametime I could still see myself running them if I felt I wanted more disruption that is not blue based.
Speaking of which, I actually used to play a playset of hymns in my esper Landstill deck awhile back in the sideboard to deal with decks like The Epic Storm and the landstill mirror(when the matchup was popular) as well.
team america is a tempo deck; it plays goyfs, tombstalkers, and other big guys to win while disrupting it's opposition (via discard, wasteland, counters).
bug control is a deck that runs little to no creatures, and usually wins by jace, the mind sculptor. it's goal is to control your opponent's board (via counters, wrath effects, and stuff like liliana).
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Kevin, I don't have a "problem with it".
I was merely pointing out that the new lists being posted are nothing new. I guess I see your point, but at the time it didn't make sense to me why the same list keeps getting posted again and again.
Hymn to Tourach is not a good card right now. The primary reason for this is that the current decks are much more aggressive, but there are several implication to that statement. I'll try to go over some of them, I'm sure I'm missing some.
1. Overall format speed - Delver of Secrets among other things have increased the speed of the format, making board presence or answers to board presence much more important than "value" cards. If you can answer early aggression from your opponent Hymn might be useful, but given the sheer volume of the cards that are implied with a faster format speed, it's highly unlikely that you will get full potential out of the card. The other card choices follow this macro concept.
2. Aggressive use of Stifle/Wasteland - A faster format brings mana curves down across all decks as they adjust to remain viable. The lower curves offer more flexible use of Wasteland and increase the use of Stifle, both of which easily knock the Hymn player off of the BB requirement of Hymn to Tourach. If you can't play the card, it simply isn't useful. Alternately, spending two turns without board presence is dangerous at best, assuming that your spells aren't answered (and they often are).
3. Snapcaster Mage - Fundamentally, Hymn to Tourach sacrifices tempo in the name of card advantage, while also threatening to win the game on the spot if the probability favors you. The redundancy and value gained by Snapcaster Mage is generally stronger than Hymn to Tourach because of the flexibility it offers when affecting the board. If you want to play card advantage spells, you have better alternatives that also affect the state of the board, such as Dark Confidant or Jace.
4. Value answers - The prevalence of Daze, Spell Snare, and Spell Pierce means that Hymn to Tourach has many flexible and well played cards to deal with it. However, these cards are played in solid numbers in many decks and also gain mana advantage in the process. You can't have your turn two Hymn countered while the opponent still gets to play a Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf, or activate a Wasteland in the same turn or you will lose very quickly.
Overall, Hymn to Tourach ignores the board aggression, which is the easiest way to lose given that the deck is essentially a suicide black control deck. It loses value when it does not solve your biggest weakness, sits in your hand unable to be cast, or when the format encourages players to play their cards faster.
Overall, I definitely appreciate your time to respond and I do agree with what your saying generally but I am going to respond to each component in your post just to break it down.
Hymn to Tourach is not a good card right now. The primary reason for this is that the current decks are much more aggressive, but there are several implication to that statement. I'll try to go over some of them, I'm sure I'm missing some.
Just because the overall metagame is pretty aggressive doesn't make hymn a bad card per say. Sure it doesn't effect the board state but it's not the reason why people play hymn. Considering, it's used to disrupt your opponent's spells before they cast them much like countermagic is for blue based stoneblade deck.
1. Overall format speed - Delver of Secrets among other things have increased the speed of the format, making board presence or answers to board presence much more important than "value" cards. If you can answer early aggression from your opponent Hymn might be useful, but given the sheer volume of the cards that are implied with a faster format speed, it's highly unlikely that you will get full potential out of the card. The other card choices follow this macro concept.
Yeah, I agree but I don't see how force of will is that much better in this case. I mean, it doesn't always feel the greatest by spending two cards to counter Delver of secrets, mother of runes, green sun zenith or scryb ranger especially if you don't have an alternative answer for them. Which is mostly likely the same reason why players play hymn, your disrupting your opponent's CA(Card advantage) since hymn takes two cards for the price of one.
2. Aggressive use of Stifle/Wasteland - A faster format brings mana curves down across all decks as they adjust to remain viable. The lower curves offer more flexible use of Wasteland and increase the use of Stifle, both of which easily knock the Hymn player off of the BB requirement of Hymn to Tourach. If you can't play the card, it simply isn't useful. Alternately, spending two turns without board presence is dangerous at best, assuming that your spells aren't answered (and they often are).
I definitely agree but it isn't always true on a consistent basis. I mean, when your the Team America player you don't always have to cast hymn, you only cast it when it's reasonably to do so or when you feel like you want to pull ahead. So just because you have hymn in your hand doesn't mean you always have to cast it, I mean you can cast brainstorm or play Jace to get rid of the card for the time being.
Also, if a tempo player wants to spend their stifles and wastelands on you just so you don't have two black mana then that seems totally fine for you. I think that in itself brings down the overall value of both stifle and wasteland since the tempo player is more worry about cards that your going to cast instead of just focusing on the overall concept of mana denial. I mean, players that actually know what they are doing can definitely set themselves up where both stifle and wasteland doesn't effect them as nearly as much which could force the tempo player to be more selective at using the mana denial.
3. Snapcaster Mage - Fundamentally, Hymn to Tourach sacrifices tempo in the name of card advantage, while also threatening to win the game on the spot if the probability favors you. The redundancy and value gained by Snapcaster Mage is generally stronger than Hymn to Tourach because of the flexibility it offers when affecting the board. If you want to play card advantage spells, you have better alternatives that also affect the state of the board, such as Dark Confidant or Jace.
I don't think this makes sense. Both snapcaster and hymn are totally different cards but at the sametime they can compliment each other since snapcaster can flashback hymn if you feel that is the correct lines of play. Also, I would think Hymn can be a tempo card but in some other ways it can generate CA since your making your opponent discard two with just one card. There is more then one meaning to card advantage, it doesn't always mean card draw.
4. Value answers - The prevalence of Daze, Spell Snare, and Spell Pierce means that Hymn to Tourach has many flexible and well played cards to deal with it. However, these cards are played in solid numbers in many decks and also gain mana advantage in the process. You can't have your turn two Hymn countered while the opponent still gets to play a Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf, or activate a Wasteland in the same turn or you will lose very quickly.
Yeah, true, but at the sametime daze, spell snare, and spell pierce will also have to deal with hymn. Also, if hymn is such a bad play in the scenario your describing then why cast hymn right there? There is always an option of waiting and playing more tightly so you can actually benefit from all of the cards that you play.
Overall, Hymn to Tourach ignores the board aggression, which is the easiest way to lose given that the deck is essentially a suicide black control deck. It loses value when it does not solve your biggest weakness, sits in your hand unable to be cast, or when the format encourages players to play their cards faster.
Well, hymn isn't a removal spell or a mass removal effect like deed so of course it ignores board aggression. You use hymn to disrupt your opponent from playing magic much like blue countermagic as I previously said.
Just because the overall metagame is pretty aggressive doesn't make hymn a bad card per say. Sure it doesn't effect the board state but it's not the reason why people play hymn. Considering, it's used to disrupt your opponent's spells before they cast them much like countermagic is for blue based stoneblade deck.
The overall metagame fundamentally dictates the relative goodness of a card. Hymn is not played because you can't ignore the board state should your opponent have anything threatening. Since this stipulation is quite relevant at the moment, how the card is judged based on those conditions is equally relevant. If you want to disrupt your opponent, there are safer and easier spells to work with, such as Thoughtseize, Spell Pierce, and many others cards that are heavily used for the time being.
Yeah, I agree but I don't see how force of will is that much better in this case. I mean, it doesn't always feel the greatest by spending two cards to counter Delver of secrets, mother of runes, green sun zenith or scryb ranger especially if you don't have an alternative answer for them. Which is mostly likely the same reason why players play hymn, your disrupting your opponent's CA (Card advantage) since hymn takes two cards for the price of one.
You're right, but players are cutting Force of Will now too, which further reinforces the point. Force of Will is actually much more flexible than Hymn to Tourach, as it can change roles many times in a game, to hinder your opponent, augment your offense, or establish board presence. Since you agree with the overall point and I agree with Force of Will being somewhat similar, we have no other argument here.
I definitely agree but it isn't always true on a consistent basis. I mean, when your the Team America player you don't always have to cast hymn, you only cast it when it's reasonably to do so or when you feel like you want to pull ahead. So just because you have hymn in your hand doesn't mean you always have to cast it, I mean you can cast brainstorm or play Jace to get rid of the card for the time being.
First, you want your cards to be as consistent as possible. Let's ignore that point though. You don't always have to cast Hymn, but when you want to and are't able to, you will wish it was something else. At any time your card effectively has no text, it is a bad card. Does that make Jace a bad card before turn 4? Absolutely! But we accept that negative under the premise that the goodness of that card later will be worth it.
So when is Hymn to Tourach worth it? Turn 2 is good, but only if the opponent has no board and you can cast it. Mid-game? Against the aggression-heavy format, those threatening cards that you want to discard are already on the table. Somewhere in-between? You should be spending this time interacting with the format more meaningfully unless for some reason you don't have to. Hymn to Tourach is excellent in a slow format because it is relevant on the correct turns and you are more likely to be able to cast it when you want to. Unfortunately, that is not how the format looks right now, and I was not able to find a common game state where the goodness of the card could redeem it's negative qualities.
Also, if a tempo player wants to spend their stifles and wastelands on you just so you don't have two black mana then that seems totally fine for you. I think that in itself brings down the overall value of both stifle and wasteland since the tempo player is more worry about cards that your going to cast instead of just focusing on the overall concept of mana denial. I mean, players that actually know what they are doing can definitely set themselves up where both stifle and wasteland doesn't effect them as nearly as much which could force the tempo player to be more selective at using the mana denial.
Keeping the opponent out of the game while beating them is what tempo is all about. There is no lost opportunity cost, since the game plan to keep the opponent off of mana and off of Hymn to Tourach are effectively the same. Is using Stifle to prevent a second land worth it? Definitely! If that means that the opponent can't cast Hymn to Tourach, Smother, their own Tarmogoyf to block yours, etc. the goal is still effectively accomplished.
I don't think this makes sense. Both snapcaster and hymn are totally different cards but at the sametime they can compliment each other since snapcaster can flashback hymn if you feel that is the correct lines of play. Also, I would think Hymn can be a tempo card but in some other ways it can generate CA since your making your opponent discard two with just one card. There is more then one meaning to card advantage, it doesn't always mean card draw.
I tried targeting Hymn to Tourach with the flashback and it was very good. If you can cast Hymn to Tourach without Snapcaster, it usually means that you're at parity or advantage on the board first. Snapcaster is useful because he actually gives you some sort of board presence while you cast Hymn, but the opportunity cost is steep: You must first deal with the prior issues to conditionally cast it prior and all of its implications that have already been discussed, while also replacing deck slots for a fairly redundant goal. I think Snapcaster targeting Hymn would be excellent in a slower format and could even be a primary game plan, but we are not in that slower format. This is also not what I was addressing per se.
Given that you want some spell in your deck for card advantage, you have better options that affect the board as well when Hymn does not. This assumes that you have a limited amount of deck space as a resource, and that you are choosing between Snapcaster or Hymn, not that you want to play both. So long as the curves of the format are lower, my answers to those cheaper threats must also be lower. In a deck full of cheap spells, Snapcaster Mage and Dark Confidant are much better card advantage spells that work with the speed of the format and still provide board presence of some kind.
Yeah, true, but at the sametime daze, spell snare, and spell pierce will also have to deal with hymn. Also, if hymn is such a bad play in the scenario your describing then why cast hymn right there? There is always an option of waiting and playing more tightly so you can actually benefit from all of the cards that you play.
I would think that tight and proper play is assumed. Regardless, you are not always in a position to be able to wait. I would rather be able to leverage answers when I need them.
Well, hymn isn't a removal spell or a mass removal effect like deed so of course it ignores board aggression. You use hymn to disrupt your opponent from playing magic much like blue countermagic as I previously said.
I understand how good Hymn to Tourach can be. I simply think that there are better disruption spells for the current format, and that those disruption spells are cheaper (mana cost and/or casting speed). I see no reason to accept an inferior alternative against a varied field.
I personally love hymn as a card, but I don't really feel it's right for BUGC. Usually I find myself simply defending myself in the early game, and I don't have extra mana to be casting hymn. Late game, when things are slower-paced, hymn becomes pretty awful. Basically, there isn't really a point in most games that I'd love to cast it; I feel like I'd rather other cards in its place.
^^ One white source, that's a Dual land with Stifle and Wasteland running rampant? Goodluck with that. I'm not that daring.
Hymn is just sub-optimal though. When you're losing to Mongoose Goyf or Delver, the last thing you really need to worry about is removing cards from the hand of a player with one and two drops to kill you with.
Trying to resolve a Deed is usually a better option, which usually means playing around Stifle and fighting Daze. Sure you can try to Hymn them and play around Daze while doing it, which means that Hymn sat in your hand or you drew it and waited until you had 3 mana open, which might never happen fast enough for it to matter. I'd rather just try to resolve Deed with that 3 mana and have FOW protecting the Deed so I don't die to the 1 drops.
My experience with this deck is that Discard belongs in the SB, and should only come in for the matchups where it actually matters, like against Combo. Otherwise it just sort of does nothing for me, and I end up dying to whatever is on the board, when I should have been digging for Deed. Too many times I lost when my only out was a Deed and I just couldn't find the bastard.
James, I think you have a good idea. However, NidStyles has a point. Basing a lot of your sideboard on hitting that tundra doesn't seem so great in a meta with waste/stifle.
One reason I can get it to work for my 2 COPs vs. burn is that burn doesn't run wasteland. Against goblins/UR delver, it is more tricky to work things out, but it can be done. Against decks in which I don't bring in COP, I might add, the tundra isn't a huge drawback however. I rarely see it, and almost never search for it unless trying to bait an opposing wasteland activation (which can be quite useful sometimes). If they do get me with a wasteland when I'm struggling with mana, it sucks, but again that very rarely happens.
Whether you try it or not though James, it would be good to add some more fetches to your list. I was running 8, and recently added a 9th. They are really, really good for this deck (working with JTMS/BS, helping with mana, getting tundra, playing around wasteland, etc.) EDIT: Your list also only runs 23 lands. I suggest at least 24, my list is currently at 25. Lands are more important to this deck than most.
As for TM, I don't think it belongs. It makes you work just to untap lands, draw a card, and maybe get another activation off of a PW. Even when you pull it off, it doesn't seem like it would be too amazing. I feel like TM could be cool in some deck that can abuse the extra attack phase, like possibly a delver/tempo list, but not in BUGC.
My experience with this deck is that Discard belongs in the SB, and should only come in for the matchups where it actually matters, like against Combo. Otherwise it just sort of does nothing for me, and I end up dying to whatever is on the board, when I should have been digging for Deed. Too many times I lost when my only out was a Deed and I just couldn't find the bastard.
I share your exact opinion. I run 2 clique and 3 seize in my SB, and it is really just for combo (sometimes other decks, but it is rare). Digging for deed is key. I also have sympathy for you not finding deed; I hate it when that happens. My list used to have 3, but I added a 4th so I could find it easier. Sometimes I get cooped up with too many, but it is rare.
Is my current working list, i was wondering if you guys would be kind enough to look at it.
I don't know about spell pierce main and side, I was thinking something like flusterstorm and 2 more liliana, but whenever I tried to do that it always backfired on me Could just be the low sample size, though.
Personally, Faye, I dislike BUGC lists with creatures. 1-2 snapcaster mages is usually fine, but I prefer nothing. It is anti-synergy with deed/blood, and I REALLY hate anti-synergy.
I would recommend replacing oozes and Thrun with more PWs; BUGC is usually supposed to win via JTMS 90% of the time. Liliana is also very, very good. Better with another LftL, but still good in any case.
Other than that, I like the list. Ruins/Explosives seems awesome.
Went 6-0 in local legacy tonight. I wasn't entirely faithful to my previous 75, I added a liliana over a ghastly demise.
After tonight, I'm considering the following changes:
-3x Duress
+3x Thoughtseize
-2 Krosan Grip
+2 Sun Droplet
-1 Thrun
+1 Jace/Liliana (bringing it to 2/2 or 3/2)
Scavenging Ooze did work all night. Although it does have some anti-synergy, the graveyard control it gives is more than worth it. I often find myself playing it after a deed anyway, so my Ooze has things to nomnom on.
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how exactly do you beat burn even with COP:red? you can't protect your planeswalkers regardless. also i was thinking 1 vindicate MD and 1 SB for the possibility of opposing planeswalkers slipping a counter.
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my favorite win ever was using icequake in a POX deck and actually killing someone with a snow-covered-plains
how exactly do you beat burn even with COP:red? you can't protect your planeswalkers regardless. also i was thinking 1 vindicate MD and 1 SB for the possibility of opposing planeswalkers slipping a counter.
You are incorrect to say that COP:R can't protect your planeswalkers. So you win with Jace as normal.
Vindicate is alright, but maelstrom pulse is much easier mana-wise if you want to run something with that effect.
i read a forum with faulty information about that planeswalkers under COP in that case, thanks. As for vindicate though, if an opposing Jace slips a counter after yours i wouldn't want to be stuck with a maelstrom pulse in my hand, i mean it's not terrible but vindicate would address that problem.
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my favorite win ever was using icequake in a POX deck and actually killing someone with a snow-covered-plains
i read a forum with faulty information about that planeswalkers under COP in that case, thanks. As for vindicate though, if an opposing Jace slips a counter after yours i wouldn't want to be stuck with a maelstrom pulse in my hand, i mean it's not terrible but vindicate would address that problem.
I don't follow your argument on vindicate vs. pulse... the only extremely relevant difference is that pulse can't hit a land. And your situation with Jace just doesn't make sense at all.
Upon my suggestion, my friend (playing BUG control) decided to run 2 MD Sensei's Divining Top. Post-board, you can bring in 3 Counterbalance. Solves a few problematic matchups like Burn and Storm combo. As a control deck, you'd think that we wouldn't have problems against storm but we do. BUG's clock is painfully slow. As the storm combo player, too often I've been able to rebuild after a failed attempt and get the kill. I've played PSI and Solidarity against it so far and its not a pretty matchup for BUG without CB. TES is probably worse as they have a discard suite to accompany Chants on the combo turn, and cantrips to help sculpt quickly.
Also, Top itself is just completely nuts in BUG. If you have a dredger, you can top, then dredge, and then top again to find what you need. It gets you out of ****ty situations extremely well, is beastly with Loam, and combos with your fetchlands.
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Upon my suggestion, my friend (playing BUG control) decided to run 2 MD Sensei's Divining Top. Post-board, you can bring in 3 Counterbalance. Solves a few problematic matchups like Burn and Storm combo. As a control deck, you'd think that we wouldn't have problems against storm but we do. BUG's clock is painfully slow. As the storm combo player, too often I've been able to rebuild after a failed attempt and get the kill. I've played PSI and Solidarity against it so far and its not a pretty matchup for BUG without CB. TES is probably worse as they have a discard suite to accompany Chants on the combo turn, and cantrips to help sculpt quickly.
Also, Top itself is just completely nuts in BUG. If you have a dredger, you can top, then dredge, and then top again to find what you need. It gets you out of ****ty situations extremely well, is beastly with Loam, and combos with your fetchlands.
You might like my build of the deck, I'm playing 6 targeted discard, the full 4 Force of Will, a top/library split, and a couple dredge cards in the sideboard. It transitions into Jace nicely, and having a disruption engine is a good way to encourage the opponent to take the combo turn before they get full use out of their blue cards to set up a guaranteed lethal count.
I recently changed my targeted discard from a 4/2 split to 3/3, so keep that in mind if you're looking for my list from this topic some pages back.
Counterbalance is fine since the games where you want Counterbalance you usually don't want Deed, so that argument of their interaction is somewhat irrelevant.
@ Ooze
I've always liked Ooze in the deck, but I just can't fit him in.
@ Creatures
Creatures can be totally fine, but they have to have value attached to them in some form. I've recently been trying Gigapede, and far I've really liked him. He's a 5-drop, meaning you'll probably never Deed him away, he has Shroud (if Lord of Extinction only had shroud...sigh), and he recurs over and over, meaning they bring in near-useless gravehate to try to fight him, possibly. So far, so good.
In all honesty, I feel like I want more Garruk Relentless every time I play this list.
-Matt
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Has anyone tried Mox Diamond? yes I know you deed it away, but it ramps you into deed, jace, night a turn earlier, which can be cruicial. You discard a land.. play bring it back with life from the loam. This deck starts taking control on turn 4 (turn 5 if they have Thalia on the field), with the diamond, you can come out a turn faster. yes after you deed, its gone, but the early ramp before the deed can win you the game.
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Yeah so? I am just posting up on going top 8 tournament results of BUG control by different players, is there something wrong with that? I did the samething in the UW(x) landstill thread despite of the lists being similar or not so I am doing it here. At least I am consistent to what I am doing if you have a problem with it then I am sorry. I would do the samething with you or razefire or anyone else that happens to post in here often so I don't see what your complaining about. I am not mad or offended, I am just stating my intentions.
Repetition like that is a good thing. it solidifies the core and presents various optiions.
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+1000, exactly right, I also post up top 8 decklists to also hopefully increase discussion in this thread and keep the interest of existing players into playing this deck and also hopefully grab new players as well.
but what do I know? I don't play decks with more than 20 lands!
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Anyway, I am neutral when it comes to running hymn but at the sametime I could still see myself running them if I felt I wanted more disruption that is not blue based.
Speaking of which, I actually used to play a playset of hymns in my esper Landstill deck awhile back in the sideboard to deal with decks like The Epic Storm and the landstill mirror(when the matchup was popular) as well.
bug control is a deck that runs little to no creatures, and usually wins by jace, the mind sculptor. it's goal is to control your opponent's board (via counters, wrath effects, and stuff like liliana).
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Kevin, I don't have a "problem with it".
I was merely pointing out that the new lists being posted are nothing new. I guess I see your point, but at the time it didn't make sense to me why the same list keeps getting posted again and again.
No hard feelings,
Tom
1. Overall format speed - Delver of Secrets among other things have increased the speed of the format, making board presence or answers to board presence much more important than "value" cards. If you can answer early aggression from your opponent Hymn might be useful, but given the sheer volume of the cards that are implied with a faster format speed, it's highly unlikely that you will get full potential out of the card. The other card choices follow this macro concept.
2. Aggressive use of Stifle/Wasteland - A faster format brings mana curves down across all decks as they adjust to remain viable. The lower curves offer more flexible use of Wasteland and increase the use of Stifle, both of which easily knock the Hymn player off of the BB requirement of Hymn to Tourach. If you can't play the card, it simply isn't useful. Alternately, spending two turns without board presence is dangerous at best, assuming that your spells aren't answered (and they often are).
3. Snapcaster Mage - Fundamentally, Hymn to Tourach sacrifices tempo in the name of card advantage, while also threatening to win the game on the spot if the probability favors you. The redundancy and value gained by Snapcaster Mage is generally stronger than Hymn to Tourach because of the flexibility it offers when affecting the board. If you want to play card advantage spells, you have better alternatives that also affect the state of the board, such as Dark Confidant or Jace.
4. Value answers - The prevalence of Daze, Spell Snare, and Spell Pierce means that Hymn to Tourach has many flexible and well played cards to deal with it. However, these cards are played in solid numbers in many decks and also gain mana advantage in the process. You can't have your turn two Hymn countered while the opponent still gets to play a Nimble Mongoose, Tarmogoyf, or activate a Wasteland in the same turn or you will lose very quickly.
Overall, Hymn to Tourach ignores the board aggression, which is the easiest way to lose given that the deck is essentially a suicide black control deck. It loses value when it does not solve your biggest weakness, sits in your hand unable to be cast, or when the format encourages players to play their cards faster.
Just because the overall metagame is pretty aggressive doesn't make hymn a bad card per say. Sure it doesn't effect the board state but it's not the reason why people play hymn. Considering, it's used to disrupt your opponent's spells before they cast them much like countermagic is for blue based stoneblade deck.
Yeah, I agree but I don't see how force of will is that much better in this case. I mean, it doesn't always feel the greatest by spending two cards to counter Delver of secrets, mother of runes, green sun zenith or scryb ranger especially if you don't have an alternative answer for them. Which is mostly likely the same reason why players play hymn, your disrupting your opponent's CA(Card advantage) since hymn takes two cards for the price of one.
I definitely agree but it isn't always true on a consistent basis. I mean, when your the Team America player you don't always have to cast hymn, you only cast it when it's reasonably to do so or when you feel like you want to pull ahead. So just because you have hymn in your hand doesn't mean you always have to cast it, I mean you can cast brainstorm or play Jace to get rid of the card for the time being.
Also, if a tempo player wants to spend their stifles and wastelands on you just so you don't have two black mana then that seems totally fine for you. I think that in itself brings down the overall value of both stifle and wasteland since the tempo player is more worry about cards that your going to cast instead of just focusing on the overall concept of mana denial. I mean, players that actually know what they are doing can definitely set themselves up where both stifle and wasteland doesn't effect them as nearly as much which could force the tempo player to be more selective at using the mana denial.
I don't think this makes sense. Both snapcaster and hymn are totally different cards but at the sametime they can compliment each other since snapcaster can flashback hymn if you feel that is the correct lines of play. Also, I would think Hymn can be a tempo card but in some other ways it can generate CA since your making your opponent discard two with just one card. There is more then one meaning to card advantage, it doesn't always mean card draw.
Yeah, true, but at the sametime daze, spell snare, and spell pierce will also have to deal with hymn. Also, if hymn is such a bad play in the scenario your describing then why cast hymn right there? There is always an option of waiting and playing more tightly so you can actually benefit from all of the cards that you play.
Well, hymn isn't a removal spell or a mass removal effect like deed so of course it ignores board aggression. You use hymn to disrupt your opponent from playing magic much like blue countermagic as I previously said.
The overall metagame fundamentally dictates the relative goodness of a card. Hymn is not played because you can't ignore the board state should your opponent have anything threatening. Since this stipulation is quite relevant at the moment, how the card is judged based on those conditions is equally relevant. If you want to disrupt your opponent, there are safer and easier spells to work with, such as Thoughtseize, Spell Pierce, and many others cards that are heavily used for the time being.
You're right, but players are cutting Force of Will now too, which further reinforces the point. Force of Will is actually much more flexible than Hymn to Tourach, as it can change roles many times in a game, to hinder your opponent, augment your offense, or establish board presence. Since you agree with the overall point and I agree with Force of Will being somewhat similar, we have no other argument here.
First, you want your cards to be as consistent as possible. Let's ignore that point though. You don't always have to cast Hymn, but when you want to and are't able to, you will wish it was something else. At any time your card effectively has no text, it is a bad card. Does that make Jace a bad card before turn 4? Absolutely! But we accept that negative under the premise that the goodness of that card later will be worth it.
So when is Hymn to Tourach worth it? Turn 2 is good, but only if the opponent has no board and you can cast it. Mid-game? Against the aggression-heavy format, those threatening cards that you want to discard are already on the table. Somewhere in-between? You should be spending this time interacting with the format more meaningfully unless for some reason you don't have to. Hymn to Tourach is excellent in a slow format because it is relevant on the correct turns and you are more likely to be able to cast it when you want to. Unfortunately, that is not how the format looks right now, and I was not able to find a common game state where the goodness of the card could redeem it's negative qualities.
Keeping the opponent out of the game while beating them is what tempo is all about. There is no lost opportunity cost, since the game plan to keep the opponent off of mana and off of Hymn to Tourach are effectively the same. Is using Stifle to prevent a second land worth it? Definitely! If that means that the opponent can't cast Hymn to Tourach, Smother, their own Tarmogoyf to block yours, etc. the goal is still effectively accomplished.
I tried targeting Hymn to Tourach with the flashback and it was very good. If you can cast Hymn to Tourach without Snapcaster, it usually means that you're at parity or advantage on the board first. Snapcaster is useful because he actually gives you some sort of board presence while you cast Hymn, but the opportunity cost is steep: You must first deal with the prior issues to conditionally cast it prior and all of its implications that have already been discussed, while also replacing deck slots for a fairly redundant goal. I think Snapcaster targeting Hymn would be excellent in a slower format and could even be a primary game plan, but we are not in that slower format. This is also not what I was addressing per se.
Given that you want some spell in your deck for card advantage, you have better options that affect the board as well when Hymn does not. This assumes that you have a limited amount of deck space as a resource, and that you are choosing between Snapcaster or Hymn, not that you want to play both. So long as the curves of the format are lower, my answers to those cheaper threats must also be lower. In a deck full of cheap spells, Snapcaster Mage and Dark Confidant are much better card advantage spells that work with the speed of the format and still provide board presence of some kind.
I would think that tight and proper play is assumed. Regardless, you are not always in a position to be able to wait. I would rather be able to leverage answers when I need them.
I understand how good Hymn to Tourach can be. I simply think that there are better disruption spells for the current format, and that those disruption spells are cheaper (mana cost and/or casting speed). I see no reason to accept an inferior alternative against a varied field.
-Tom
Hymn is just sub-optimal though. When you're losing to Mongoose Goyf or Delver, the last thing you really need to worry about is removing cards from the hand of a player with one and two drops to kill you with.
Trying to resolve a Deed is usually a better option, which usually means playing around Stifle and fighting Daze. Sure you can try to Hymn them and play around Daze while doing it, which means that Hymn sat in your hand or you drew it and waited until you had 3 mana open, which might never happen fast enough for it to matter. I'd rather just try to resolve Deed with that 3 mana and have FOW protecting the Deed so I don't die to the 1 drops.
My experience with this deck is that Discard belongs in the SB, and should only come in for the matchups where it actually matters, like against Combo. Otherwise it just sort of does nothing for me, and I end up dying to whatever is on the board, when I should have been digging for Deed. Too many times I lost when my only out was a Deed and I just couldn't find the bastard.
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Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.
Modern
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Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
One reason I can get it to work for my 2 COPs vs. burn is that burn doesn't run wasteland. Against goblins/UR delver, it is more tricky to work things out, but it can be done. Against decks in which I don't bring in COP, I might add, the tundra isn't a huge drawback however. I rarely see it, and almost never search for it unless trying to bait an opposing wasteland activation (which can be quite useful sometimes). If they do get me with a wasteland when I'm struggling with mana, it sucks, but again that very rarely happens.
Whether you try it or not though James, it would be good to add some more fetches to your list. I was running 8, and recently added a 9th. They are really, really good for this deck (working with JTMS/BS, helping with mana, getting tundra, playing around wasteland, etc.) EDIT: Your list also only runs 23 lands. I suggest at least 24, my list is currently at 25. Lands are more important to this deck than most.
As for TM, I don't think it belongs. It makes you work just to untap lands, draw a card, and maybe get another activation off of a PW. Even when you pull it off, it doesn't seem like it would be too amazing. I feel like TM could be cool in some deck that can abuse the extra attack phase, like possibly a delver/tempo list, but not in BUGC.
-Tom
EDIT:
I share your exact opinion. I run 2 clique and 3 seize in my SB, and it is really just for combo (sometimes other decks, but it is rare). Digging for deed is key. I also have sympathy for you not finding deed; I hate it when that happens. My list used to have 3, but I added a 4th so I could find it easier. Sometimes I get cooped up with too many, but it is rare.
-Tom
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Academy Ruins
3 Wasteland
1 Forest
Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Engineered Explosives
Enchantments
3 Pernicious Deed
Spells
3 Spell Snare
3 Ghastly Demise
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
3 Duress
2 Counterspell
3 Innocent Blood
Planeswalkers
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Spell Pierce
4 Force of Will
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Null Rod
2 Krosan Grip
Is my current working list, i was wondering if you guys would be kind enough to look at it.
I don't know about spell pierce main and side, I was thinking something like flusterstorm and 2 more liliana, but whenever I tried to do that it always backfired on me Could just be the low sample size, though.
I would recommend replacing oozes and Thrun with more PWs; BUGC is usually supposed to win via JTMS 90% of the time. Liliana is also very, very good. Better with another LftL, but still good in any case.
Other than that, I like the list. Ruins/Explosives seems awesome.
-Tom
After tonight, I'm considering the following changes:
-3x Duress
+3x Thoughtseize
-2 Krosan Grip
+2 Sun Droplet
-1 Thrun
+1 Jace/Liliana (bringing it to 2/2 or 3/2)
Scavenging Ooze did work all night. Although it does have some anti-synergy, the graveyard control it gives is more than worth it. I often find myself playing it after a deed anyway, so my Ooze has things to nomnom on.
You are incorrect to say that COP:R can't protect your planeswalkers. So you win with Jace as normal.
Vindicate is alright, but maelstrom pulse is much easier mana-wise if you want to run something with that effect.
-Tom
I don't follow your argument on vindicate vs. pulse... the only extremely relevant difference is that pulse can't hit a land. And your situation with Jace just doesn't make sense at all.
Also, Top itself is just completely nuts in BUG. If you have a dredger, you can top, then dredge, and then top again to find what you need. It gets you out of ****ty situations extremely well, is beastly with Loam, and combos with your fetchlands.
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I might try it out, though. It seems pretty good.
You might like my build of the deck, I'm playing 6 targeted discard, the full 4 Force of Will, a top/library split, and a couple dredge cards in the sideboard. It transitions into Jace nicely, and having a disruption engine is a good way to encourage the opponent to take the combo turn before they get full use out of their blue cards to set up a guaranteed lethal count.
I recently changed my targeted discard from a 4/2 split to 3/3, so keep that in mind if you're looking for my list from this topic some pages back.
Counterbalance is fine since the games where you want Counterbalance you usually don't want Deed, so that argument of their interaction is somewhat irrelevant.
@ Ooze
I've always liked Ooze in the deck, but I just can't fit him in.
@ Creatures
Creatures can be totally fine, but they have to have value attached to them in some form. I've recently been trying Gigapede, and far I've really liked him. He's a 5-drop, meaning you'll probably never Deed him away, he has Shroud (if Lord of Extinction only had shroud...sigh), and he recurs over and over, meaning they bring in near-useless gravehate to try to fight him, possibly. So far, so good.
In all honesty, I feel like I want more Garruk Relentless every time I play this list.
-Matt
Legacy:
Thanks to SGT Chubbs for the sig