Round 1: Dredge.
Game 1 i start and cast a deathrite shaman after fetching for a bayou.
He goes LED, discard hand -> cast faithfull looting to dredge 2 bigguys... I had a force of will in hand, and could counter the looting. my turn 1 i drop a deathrite shaman and from there i eat dredgers and he cant do much.
Game 2 i stall the game untill he dredges into an elesh norn and dread return, and its gg. I dont see a single deathrite shaman there.
Game 3 same as game 1, deathrite shaman and force of will win me the game.
Round 2: Storm...
Game 1 i play safe, started with some discard spells, and deathrite shaman exiles spells to make him loose life... keep force of wills in hand to prevent big things from happening and win the game...
Game 2 he tries to combo turn 1, and when his last card (infernal tutor) is cast and led is sacrificed, i show him my force of will... i had 2 hymns and a thoughtseize still in hand... i could wrap the game with (if i remember correct a lilliana)
Round 3: MUD...
Robots robots everywhere,
Game 1 i start with a thoughtseize and see that she had 1 land (city of traitors) grim monolith, 2 metalworkers, wurmcoil engine, lightning greaves and a lodestone golem in hand, i discard the monolith and start the game seeing she is manascrewed... untill 2 turns later she draws into a second land, casts metalworker followed by a lodestone... I dont draw anything good and loose the game.
Game 2 she is manaflooded, and put a wurmcoil engine onto the battlefield, and start hitting me for a lot... an occuring wasteland with crucible and a lodestone golem makes the game end.
Round 4: Omniscience...
Game 1, he combo's on turn 3, and game 2 he combo's on turn 2. dont remember much of this game, other then it was a fast game....
Round 5: esperblade/thopter combo...
Game 1 is pretty straighforward, i hit him to 5 life, and he stabilizes with jace and liliana along with a stoneforge into batterskull.. and because the game took long enough, and i want to have time for game 2 and 3 i concede... (he had in play, jace, liliana, batterskull, stoneforge mystic.
Game 2 he is manascrewed... and lets me do everything i want.
Game 3 another manascrew from him, and i get to win pretty easy.
9 points ended up 7th...
so, people were wondering 21 lands? is that enough... i answer... yes, i was screwed only once, and thats because of lodestone golem.
and a short question... why am i running basics? shouldnt i remove the 3 basics for duals, or should i keep the basics?
Nonbasic landhate can be a problem, though I'm not sure how much of one. That's why most people run basics anyway.
yes, but when do you fetch for basics? i find that to be my biggest problem... turn one, without knowing my opponents hand i fetch... basic or nonbasic?
even after thoughtseizing him... basic or nonbasic?
yes, but when do you fetch for basics? i find that to be my biggest problem... turn one, without knowing my opponents hand i fetch... basic or nonbasic?
even after thoughtseizing him... basic or nonbasic?
And that, is how magic is played. There is not right/wrong global governing approach, especially for turn 1. You've just got to go with your gut/what your hand is. Can you deal with non-basic hate? Are you faster/slower?
That being said, generally for a control deck I'd opt for making the first few lands basics if my hand can play with them.
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Maverick -- Storm Click here for trade thread
Trade thread under reconstruction. Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
Round 1:
Deck: BWG (mix between BUG and stoneblade)
Game 1:
He is manascrewed (stuck at a swamp and wasteland) at the beginning, but i cant do much. After casting a liliana and letting him discard a card he discards a lingering soul and on his turn he gets 2 flyers. I get to let him sac one and cast a shardless agent into a thoughtseize, seeing another souls, tarmogoyf, sylvan library, liliana, swords to plowshares. i let him discard the library to take most advantage about his manascrew. but a turn later he casts tarmogoyf, followed by a swords to plowshares, and finishes me of.
Game 2:
Thoughtseize lets me see a hand with 2 lands, i waste one the next turn and cast a deathrite shaman, followed by a shardless agent into a goyf, and hit him to death.
Game 3: 3 shardless agents do the trick.
Round 2:
Deck: Dredge
Game 1: This is a guy I played last week against where he played the thopter deck (thopter foundry and sword of the meek combo). He mulligans to 4 cards and tells me he doesnt want to play a land because its tricky. I think, he either has no land in hand, or has nonbasic swords to plowshares or something. he doesnt do anything while i go: turn 1 deathrite shaman, turn 2 tarmogoyf, and on turn 3 i think casting liliana and letting him discard makes my goyf grow, and i can hit him to death faster... he ends up discarding a stinkweed imp... on his turn he plays land, casts breakthrough and wins.
Game 2 i play a bit more carefull, and am able to surgical a bridge and shrink his tokens with my engineered plague, deathrite shaman does the rest.
Game 3 again does my deathrite shaman a lot, and very late in the game i can cast a surgical on his bridges that seal the game.
Round 3:
Deck: Sneaky show
Game 1 my thoughtseize gets countered by a force of will, turn 2 i cast hymn to tourach, and turn 3 i think i want to play shardless agent instead of another hymn, i reveal a ancestral visions and on his turn 3 he casts show and tell puts a sneak attack into play followed by a lotus petal into an emrakul, then draws another emrakul on his next turn.
Game 2 inboarded duress turn 1 gets countered, turn 2 gets a show and tell that i surgical. then a waste on his land causes him to not play anything anymore and i hit him to death with 2 goyfs.
Game 3 another dures, thoughtseize, hymn, hymn, goyf shardless agent, and he doesnt draw anything usefull and looses.
Round 4:
Deck: ANT
Game 1 i know he is playing ANT and keep a hand with 1 wasteland, 1 deathrite shaman, goyf, jace, force of will, abrupt decay and a brainstorm. i dont draw another land, and he duresses my fow, combos and wins.
Game 2 I can duress and thoughtseize him, last hand i see is a ponder, brainstorm, 2 lands and 2 cabal rituals, and i think its safe to not cast hymns or thoughtseizes but instead put a goyf on the table... the turn after my goyf hits table, he hits my face with a tendrils.
Round 5
Deck: Omnitell
Game 1, thoughtseizes and hymns cause him not to cast any threats and gets hit to death by my goyf and shardless agent.
Game 2 i play deathrite on turn 1, hymn on turn 2. then on his 3rd turn he plays dream halls. On my turn 3 i cast shardless agent into ancestral vision, draw 3 cards 2 of whitch thoughtseizes, and 1 land. I play land an i have enough cards to cast 2 thoughtseizes and a liliana use first ability to empty his hand and win.
Round 6
Deck: omnitell
We draw ourselfs into top 4
looking at your list, was garruk worth it? what would you change in hindsight against those match ups about your list? any reason strix doesnt make the cut in your list?
looking at your list, was garruk worth it? what would you change in hindsight against those match ups about your list? any reason strix doesnt make the cut in your list?
thank you
Garruk.. i dont know if it was worth it... never cast him and always sideboarded him out...
Strix is not in my list because i dont own any and i couldnt find someone to borrow it from...
Changes i would make... My meta is very combo-heavy... so i think removing the garruk mainboard and a thoughtseize for 2 vendilion cliques wouldnt be a wrong choice i think...
as for the sideboard...
i should remove the notion thieves and cliques from my sideboard and add something like... euh... something better in it wouldnt be a waste i guess...
as for the games... the loss against dredge game 1 wasnt necessary and keeping a shaky hand against storm was dumb...
Congrats although its a strange list... i would never play without 4 Visions and 4 Decays.
What you can do against Combo? Get yourself 2-4 Flusterstorm and put them into your SB!
i would never play with 4 visions... drawing into them is only good for force of will fodder... 1 in your openingshand is only good if you dont have thoughtseize or deathrite shaman... and 3 does more then i can expect from this deck...
I play only 2 decays... why? because my meta is 60% combo, 30% control and 10% agro... and against most combodecks decay does absolutely nothing...
I own 3 flusterstorms, thats not the problem... i just dont believe they are good against any combo deck... against storm its awesome... but is it also good against omnitell? or against sneakyshow?
playing a list with 3 open slots gives me the possibility to experiment... and thats what im doing at the moment
Took down the SCG IQ today with shardless bug. I'm doing this on phone, so apologies ahead of time for any spelling or grammatical errors. To start off here is my list.
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt decay
3 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ancestral Vision
Sideboard:
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Force of will
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Submerge
2 Massacre
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pernacious Deed
The only thing I'm fiddling with right now is what to cut for a 4th deathrite, probably a baleful strix, but either way I'm happy with the main and my sb turned out to be perfect for the local meta.
Round 1 Rug
Game one I kept a hand with double waste, two fetches, deathrite, jace, and a fow. I won the roll and lead with fetch into deathrite. He goes tropic into delver. I play a waste and hi the tropic and abrupt (top decked) the delver off of deathrite. He goes tropic into anther delver. I waste again and pass. He flipped delver, but didn't have a land drop. I go fetch into shardless into abrupt and from there it was one sided.
Brought in 2 submerge and 1 hymn for g2 taking out 2 ancestral and 1 strix.
Game two was insanely fast for I kept a double goyf hand with fow protection and he got super mana flooded after mulling to 5
1-0 (2-0)
Round 2 Mud
I'm not going in depth on this one. This was my roommate and we have tested this matchup a lot. There is really no possible way to lose this matchup for Lily, Jace, and Abrupt just wreck this deck and force acts as a catch all, so as long as you can kill that early mana maker, preferably the metal worker, and land a planeswalker you are going to win. Then out of the sideboard deeds just wreck face and get rid of the revokers they bring in to shut down the walkers and it gets rid of goblin welders, who should never be allowed to live more then one turn.
2-0 (4-0)
Round 3 Punishing Maverick
This is one of the guys from my team and I seem to have just rotten luck against him. He quickly mopped he floor with me game one with an active deathrite and a loam waste lock in place.
I board in submerges, massacres, and deeds taking out 3 strix, 2 ancestral, and 1 force.
All that happens is a swords for deathrite and then one for goyf the got Thalia down with a waste lock again. I feel this is just horrible match up and you need just a nuts hand to beat.
2-1 (4-2)
When round 4 standings went up it was very clear who the top 8 were, for some reason of dumb luck the top half all had 6 points except for the two undefeated and the bottom half all had 3 points or less. So the whole top 8 just drew in.
2-1-1
Quarter finals R/W Goblins
I won the roll kept my hand and he mulled to 6. Lead with a fetch and passed. He played mountain into lackey. I dropped a turn two strix drew a goyf. He coldn't deal with the strix and I continued to slow roll the game by dropping Lily and Jace off of shardless into deathrite and wasting his lands.
Took out 2 goyfs, 1 strix and 2 ancestral and put in 3 deeds and 2 massacre. I was concerned about the playset of rest in piece in his sb.
Game two was very fast because of uncounterable Thalia and a ravaging of my mana base from wasteland and ports.
Game two I lead with deathrite, he goes lackey. I play turn 2 Lily and from there he couldn't recover. Shardless did some work here, such as blind flipping an abrupt into his vial I didn't have the force for. I also love wasting his only red source, that happened to be a nasty cavern of souls.
Semi finals TES
I have to admit I was scared going into this. It was a very slow game that involved me always having a force up and him knowing it. So chipped away at his health with a death rite and baleful strix and finally he tried to go off at 8 life with a silence, but he wished for a past in flames with a storm count of 9 and a ad nauseam and burning wish in the grave. So I ate the burning wish in response to past in flames putting him down to 6 and forced him to cast ad, which he used to kill himself when he couldn't find a way out.
I sided in the hymn, force, 4 mindbreak traps, and 2 tormod's taking out 2 ancestral, 3 strix, 2 Jace, and 1 goyf.
I kept a hand with a mindbreak trap, deathrite, and 2 tormod's. He rushed into it on his turn two and went for 18 gobo's that I mindbreak trapped. I proceeded to keep him out of the game with 2 deathrites and a Lily.
Finals Esper blade
I never played this match up, but without a time clock these games were unbelievably long.
Game one I kept a two underground sea hand with a brainstorm, and whole spew of fun green and 3 cmc stuff. Unfortunately I didn't find a 3rd land till around turn 5, so I lost that one to a jace I couldn't stop.
I sb in 1 hymn and both my massacres taking out 1 ancestral, 1 strix, and one goyf.
Game two was a long one. It involved lingering spirits and jaces on each side of the board. Finally I was able to get ahead by casting. Lily and shardless in one turn, followed the next the by chaining my other two Lilys to help jace kill tokens the on the next turn after a spirit killed my 3rd Lily (everybody watching loved the fact that all three Lilys were on top of each in the grave) I proceeded to cast a shardless into a brainstorm that netted me my other jace and another shardless that chained into an ancestral. And all of that stuff just threw the scales off the table and let me swing in for the win the flowing turn.
Game 3 was actually decided quickly by my hymns on turn 2, turn 3, and turn 5 and my shardless that got him down to 10 before I had to go ghost busters on some spirit tokens with a massacre. And from there my goyf, shardless into shaman, and Jace finished him off.
That's how I walked away with $250 and another invite. Sorry for too much detail in some spots and not enough in others. Any questions feel free to shoot them my way and constructive advice is appreciated too.
Great report, Bill. Sorry to put you down round 3; it almost feels like Punishing Mav was built to kill BUG sometimes (I haven't lost a game against BUG with Punishing Mav yet). Such is the price of small creatures (with the exception of Goyf) and no basics.
Bill, how's the 23 land count working out for you? I'm considering going back up to that number from 22 after scrubbing out this recent weekend at SCG CLE. It felt like many of my losses were due to not being able to establish my mana base because I got wastelanded once or stifled once and couldn't draw into more land to recover.
I'm really enjoying the land count and with a full playset of wastelands I feel that it is the correct number. I probably could also be safe though and take out one delta for another misty, just in case people try to get cute with pithing needle. The only time I feel the pain with my mana base is against opposing wastelands in multiples, if I haven't landed a deathrite that is. That being said, I really want to find a way to fit that last deathrite in. Last month I played in a big tourny in the cities and I packed Life from the Loam in my sideboard, which ended helping immensely against the lands match up. I ran out of room in my sb this tourny, but I feel that I should really put it back in the sb to help with opposing wasteland decks (such as Rug or Punishing Maverick nudge nudge wink wink Pops). Probably take out one deed and possibly one mindbreak trap.
Went to a Legacy format GP DC Trial today at Empire Cards Game Center in Streetsboro, OH. Ran Shardless BUG to a 3-1 record in the swiss and made the Top 4. Beat my semi-finals opponent and split with my finals opponent to get the 2 byes for GP DC. I'm really happy with how the deck ran today, especially since I was at a loss with it last weekend after scrubbing out at SCG Cleveland. Will post some sort of report with a list when I'm not so tired. I will say though I upped the land count to 23 lands. Made a little more prone to flood by I rarely ever got land screwed and brainstorm of course helped me get out of flooding situations.
Went to a Legacy format GP DC Trial today at Empire Cards Game Center in Streetsboro, OH. Ran Shardless BUG to a 3-1 record in the swiss and made the Top 4. Beat my semi-finals opponent and split with my finals opponent to get the 2 byes for GP DC. I'm really happy with how the deck ran today, especially since I was at a loss with it last weekend after scrubbing out at SCG Cleveland. Will post some sort of report with a list when I'm not so tired. I will say though I upped the land count to 23 lands. Made a little more prone to flood by I rarely ever got land screwed and brainstorm of course helped me get out of flooding situations.
Congratulations! Did you take away any other opinions on the deck and what was your loss to? I'll be rocking my same list in Milwaukee today, so hopefully I can make something happen for shardless.
Congratulations! Did you take away any other opinions on the deck and what was your loss to? I'll be rocking my same list in Milwaukee today, so hopefully I can make something happen for shardless.
Just posted my Tournament Report here on The Source. To answer your question Sir Bill, my biggest takeaway aside from the deck seeming to run better on 23 lands concerns when to side Jace out. I used to side out Jace in just about almost every nonblue fair MU (ex. Goblins, Maverick, D&T, etc). However, I'm not so sure if that is right anymore considering how I kept him in against my Goblins opponent the second time around. In both games of my semifinals round, Jace was the reason I was able to grind my opponent out.
Have you guys tried an ashiok yet? He is insane against any creature based decks. He has singlehandedly won me games against rug delver by just taking their goyf and eating a bolt gaining me lots of card advantage. It's a hard to deal with walker coming in at 5 loyalty and stealing things in legacy costs only 1 or 2 mana. It's terrible against combo but even against control they have to answer it or they will lose their hand.
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Top 8'd spring states 2013 with esper control
Top 8'd modern states with tarmo-twin
Have you guys tried an ashiok yet? He is insane against any creature based decks. He has singlehandedly won me games against rug delver by just taking their goyf and eating a bolt gaining me lots of card advantage. It's a hard to deal with walker coming in at 5 loyalty and stealing things in legacy costs only 1 or 2 mana. It's terrible against combo but even against control they have to answer it or they will lose their hand.
The Shardless version at least eats RUG for breakfast already. And given that RUG plays 12 creatures, I don't like them odds.
What bad matchups does Ashiok improve? Not combo, clearly. Jund seems questionable... especially if they have Punishing Fire going.
I played some local legacy last night with a landstill version of the deck. Most of the deck was good. I tried Ashiok in the sideboard versus D&Taxes and it was ok, not amazing but ok. It kinda failed versus Miracles, being that I thought resolving it would hinder Sdtop activations, and it could in theory soak up a red blast but meh overall.
So what do you guys think about Toxic Deluge? Seems right up our alley. We get a versatile Wrath and we can just regain life off a new Deathrite Shaman. Low on the curve and color requirements, to boot.
So what do you guys think about Toxic Deluge? Seems right up our alley. We get a versatile Wrath and we can just regain life off a new Deathrite Shaman. Low on the curve and color requirements, to boot.
I like that card a lot. Going to test 1 or 2 in my sb soon. I'm always a fan of versatile sb cards.
Anyways, so one of my buddies who is going to GP DC with me is trying to learn how to play Shardless BUG before then. He played against an Elves player in the swiss at my LGS yesterday. After the match we talked about his sb'ing, which went like the following: -3 Jace, -3 Force of Will, +2 Pernicious Deed, +2 Golgari Charm, +2 Disfigure. I didn't necessarily say he was wrong for sb'ing like that, but I'm not sure about taking out Force of Will against Elves. This is a MU I'm still trying to figure out. Thoughts? What are your plans when you get paired against an Elves player while piloting Shardless BUG? What do you side in and out?
So, the meta seems to have shifted. Combo is big, especially show and tell, with storm very big in Europe (where I am from). The big fair decks at the moment seem to be RUG, and Death and Taxes, which is a really bad MU for us.
Can we evolve from this, and is the Shardless Agent package still viable? or are we fine, or dead completely? Thoughts?
Don't think we're dead completely, just in decline. This deck, while not as good against combo as a delver deck, still can fight combo if you adjust your list accordingly. It is often an uphill battle though since we run less disruption than an Esper Stoneblade deck. I think if the meta continues to be combo heavy it might be better to switch to Team America if you want to stay in BUG colors. I'm only playing the deck still because I don't think I can get enough experience with another deck in time for GP DC, but after that I will probably put it down for a while to play other decks.
As for the big fair decks, I don't think RUG is as big right now as UWR Delver. That seems to be the best Delver deck at the moment. However, I never fear a Delver deck with Shardless BUG. We are generally favored in any fair blue mirror. Death and Taxes, on the other hand, is tough. Not unbeatable though. I have beaten them before. My plan currently is to answer all their threats, stabilize, and kill them before they draw into more action. This gets much easier postboard since I bring in more removal including golgari charm and now Toxic Deluge (my answer for anything golgari charm can't take care of like Mirran Crusader). I typically side out my forces and discard. I keep my Jaces in. He's not always good but I like having him in my deck than any discard spells because he's not a terrible topdeck. I've even won games because of him because he found me the answer I needed to stabilize or put the game out of my opponent's reach after stabilizing.
As for taking out the Shardless package, I don't know how I would answer that, but my feeling is that you either become more controlling (pure BUG Control) or more aggro (switch to Team America). I personally think that if you're going to play a BUG midrange deck that Shardless BUG is the best deck for that since the Shardless package enables you to get immediate value if you cascade into visions where old BUG Midrange builds with Dark Confidant have the problem of needing Dark Confidant to stick. That's just my two cents on that topic though. Maybe there's a different BUG Midrange deck we should be playing.
I feel like I sided my Jaces out too much. They came out versus combo as being too slow and Tempo decks for being too expensive. I wanted to keep him in versus Maverick and Death and Taxes but their Wastelands made it very difficult to get off the ground with Jace. He did work in control matchups but they were very few and far between. I was thinking of moving the Liliana from the side into the main, going for a 2/2 split on walkers. However, I think I'm playing Jace wrong versus tempo. Thoughts?
My sideboard is probably going to go -1 Deed +1 Deluge. I have K Grip for the non creature permanents I need dead. Deed was nice versus Stoneblade and such but I think I have a good enough matchup to just go Deluge for the spirit tokens.
The Dismember out of the side was to up my spot removal versus creature decks like Maverick. I would really like another point of spot removal for the board but I don't know if Dismember is right.
Post board versus combo I can go up to 4x Thoughtseize 2x Hymn 2x Inquisition 4x Force of Will. Am I oversiding versus Sneak & Show/Storm decks? That's where I'm comfortable versus them but I might be crutching myself too much. I find versus ANT especially, it's important to get in the early discard but also have a FoW for when they attempt Past in Flames/IGG/Ad Nauseum.
Well there's Shardless BUG, the advantage-based control deck that you've seen in the past several pages, and then there's the value-based BUG Walkers lists which are something like 3 or 4 jaces, 2 or 3 Liliana, and 0 or 1 Garruk Relentless, special guest star Pernicious Deed, music by Vendillion Clique.
The core seems to be Brainstorms, Abrupt Decays, Deathrite Shaman (!!!), and Jace/Lili in some number
BUG Walkers gets to run non-Force counter magic because it doesn't have to worry about cascading into Spell Pierce or whatever.
So Delver and Stoneforge decks are quite big in my meta, and I've been playing Bug (mosty Shardless) for quite a long time and never had too many problems. But with the recent printing of our fine little friend True-Name Nemesis, Stoneforge Decks with equipment have become so much more powerful and I figured a change was needed. As good as liliana is against TNN, it's sometimes not always enough against Dazes, Pierces, FoW as well as them having other creatures. As someone earlier said, I found that I was siding out Jaces a lot. He just seem's weaker than usual with UWR delver becoming pretty big. These decks run Swords and Bolts as removal, and nothing else so this is what I came up with to combat them.
It worked pretty well at a small tournament last night. I went 3-1, just losing to an aggro bant deck in a close G3 where he was at 1 and I had 2 draw steps to draw a spell with a DRS in play...land, land. In that time he played a Batterskull and equipped it to TNN. GG. I wasn't playing the Edicts, these are two slots I change around a lot. I was testing Living Wishes, which seemed fine as they got countered all but one time expect against S&T which got a Karakas and the win. The other matches were S&T which I've never really found too much of a problem with, UR Stasis which Abrupt Decay is quite good against and UWR Delver which did go to a G3 but I baited out all the countermagic with removal and liliana's and then NO'd for Progenitus.
One of the problems at the moment is the blue count for FoW which I'll work on.
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2x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Island
2x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
4x Thoughtseize
3x Ancestral Vision
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Shardless Agent
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Liliana of the Veil
3x Jace, the Mindsculptor
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Submerge
3x Engineered Plague
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Krosan Grip
1x Notion Thief
19 players, 5 rounds...
Round 1: Dredge.
Game 1 i start and cast a deathrite shaman after fetching for a bayou.
He goes LED, discard hand -> cast faithfull looting to dredge 2 bigguys... I had a force of will in hand, and could counter the looting. my turn 1 i drop a deathrite shaman and from there i eat dredgers and he cant do much.
Game 2 i stall the game untill he dredges into an elesh norn and dread return, and its gg. I dont see a single deathrite shaman there.
Game 3 same as game 1, deathrite shaman and force of will win me the game.
Round 2: Storm...
Game 1 i play safe, started with some discard spells, and deathrite shaman exiles spells to make him loose life... keep force of wills in hand to prevent big things from happening and win the game...
Game 2 he tries to combo turn 1, and when his last card (infernal tutor) is cast and led is sacrificed, i show him my force of will... i had 2 hymns and a thoughtseize still in hand... i could wrap the game with (if i remember correct a lilliana)
Round 3: MUD...
Robots robots everywhere,
Game 1 i start with a thoughtseize and see that she had 1 land (city of traitors) grim monolith, 2 metalworkers, wurmcoil engine, lightning greaves and a lodestone golem in hand, i discard the monolith and start the game seeing she is manascrewed... untill 2 turns later she draws into a second land, casts metalworker followed by a lodestone... I dont draw anything good and loose the game.
Game 2 she is manaflooded, and put a wurmcoil engine onto the battlefield, and start hitting me for a lot... an occuring wasteland with crucible and a lodestone golem makes the game end.
Round 4: Omniscience...
Game 1, he combo's on turn 3, and game 2 he combo's on turn 2. dont remember much of this game, other then it was a fast game....
Round 5: esperblade/thopter combo...
Game 1 is pretty straighforward, i hit him to 5 life, and he stabilizes with jace and liliana along with a stoneforge into batterskull.. and because the game took long enough, and i want to have time for game 2 and 3 i concede... (he had in play, jace, liliana, batterskull, stoneforge mystic.
Game 2 he is manascrewed... and lets me do everything i want.
Game 3 another manascrew from him, and i get to win pretty easy.
9 points ended up 7th...
so, people were wondering 21 lands? is that enough... i answer... yes, i was screwed only once, and thats because of lodestone golem.
and a short question... why am i running basics? shouldnt i remove the 3 basics for duals, or should i keep the basics?
Thank you for Heroes of the Plane Studios for this awesome sig.
Legacy:
Shardlessless BUG (active)
Shardless BUG (retired)
UW Stoneblade (retired)
Maveric (retired)
Thopters (retired)
Dark Horizons (retired)
Dreadstill (retired)
Armageddon Staxx (retired)
- You think it is over, but Ibraman has just begun...
- When it rains, women get wet.
Nonbasic landhate can be a problem, though I'm not sure how much of one. That's why most people run basics anyway.
yes, but when do you fetch for basics? i find that to be my biggest problem... turn one, without knowing my opponents hand i fetch... basic or nonbasic?
even after thoughtseizing him... basic or nonbasic?
Thank you for Heroes of the Plane Studios for this awesome sig.
Legacy:
Shardlessless BUG (active)
Shardless BUG (retired)
UW Stoneblade (retired)
Maveric (retired)
Thopters (retired)
Dark Horizons (retired)
Dreadstill (retired)
Armageddon Staxx (retired)
- You think it is over, but Ibraman has just begun...
- When it rains, women get wet.
And that, is how magic is played. There is not right/wrong global governing approach, especially for turn 1. You've just got to go with your gut/what your hand is. Can you deal with non-basic hate? Are you faster/slower?
That being said, generally for a control deck I'd opt for making the first few lands basics if my hand can play with them.
Maverick -- Storm
Click here for trade threadTrade thread under reconstruction.
Because you can't spell slaughter without laughter.
And thats the problem... i cant play magic... i sux at it... i normally lucksack myself through rounds and hope for a top8 position...
And thats why im going to try a build with only non-basics...
Thank you for Heroes of the Plane Studios for this awesome sig.
Legacy:
Shardlessless BUG (active)
Shardless BUG (retired)
UW Stoneblade (retired)
Maveric (retired)
Thopters (retired)
Dark Horizons (retired)
Dreadstill (retired)
Armageddon Staxx (retired)
- You think it is over, but Ibraman has just begun...
- When it rains, women get wet.
My deck:
Maindeck:
2x Bayou
3x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
1x Creeping Tarpit
2x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
4x Thoughtseize
3x Ancestral Vision
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Shardless Agent
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Garruk Relentless
2x Liliana of the Veil
3x Jace, the Mindsculptor
Sideboard:
3x Duress
3x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Engineered Plague
2x Vendilion Clique
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Notion Thief
Round 1:
Deck: BWG (mix between BUG and stoneblade)
Game 1:
He is manascrewed (stuck at a swamp and wasteland) at the beginning, but i cant do much. After casting a liliana and letting him discard a card he discards a lingering soul and on his turn he gets 2 flyers. I get to let him sac one and cast a shardless agent into a thoughtseize, seeing another souls, tarmogoyf, sylvan library, liliana, swords to plowshares. i let him discard the library to take most advantage about his manascrew. but a turn later he casts tarmogoyf, followed by a swords to plowshares, and finishes me of.
Game 2:
Thoughtseize lets me see a hand with 2 lands, i waste one the next turn and cast a deathrite shaman, followed by a shardless agent into a goyf, and hit him to death.
Game 3: 3 shardless agents do the trick.
Round 2:
Deck: Dredge
Game 1: This is a guy I played last week against where he played the thopter deck (thopter foundry and sword of the meek combo). He mulligans to 4 cards and tells me he doesnt want to play a land because its tricky. I think, he either has no land in hand, or has nonbasic swords to plowshares or something. he doesnt do anything while i go: turn 1 deathrite shaman, turn 2 tarmogoyf, and on turn 3 i think casting liliana and letting him discard makes my goyf grow, and i can hit him to death faster... he ends up discarding a stinkweed imp... on his turn he plays land, casts breakthrough and wins.
Game 2 i play a bit more carefull, and am able to surgical a bridge and shrink his tokens with my engineered plague, deathrite shaman does the rest.
Game 3 again does my deathrite shaman a lot, and very late in the game i can cast a surgical on his bridges that seal the game.
Round 3:
Deck: Sneaky show
Game 1 my thoughtseize gets countered by a force of will, turn 2 i cast hymn to tourach, and turn 3 i think i want to play shardless agent instead of another hymn, i reveal a ancestral visions and on his turn 3 he casts show and tell puts a sneak attack into play followed by a lotus petal into an emrakul, then draws another emrakul on his next turn.
Game 2 inboarded duress turn 1 gets countered, turn 2 gets a show and tell that i surgical. then a waste on his land causes him to not play anything anymore and i hit him to death with 2 goyfs.
Game 3 another dures, thoughtseize, hymn, hymn, goyf shardless agent, and he doesnt draw anything usefull and looses.
Round 4:
Deck: ANT
Game 1 i know he is playing ANT and keep a hand with 1 wasteland, 1 deathrite shaman, goyf, jace, force of will, abrupt decay and a brainstorm. i dont draw another land, and he duresses my fow, combos and wins.
Game 2 I can duress and thoughtseize him, last hand i see is a ponder, brainstorm, 2 lands and 2 cabal rituals, and i think its safe to not cast hymns or thoughtseizes but instead put a goyf on the table... the turn after my goyf hits table, he hits my face with a tendrils.
Round 5
Deck: Omnitell
Game 1, thoughtseizes and hymns cause him not to cast any threats and gets hit to death by my goyf and shardless agent.
Game 2 i play deathrite on turn 1, hymn on turn 2. then on his 3rd turn he plays dream halls. On my turn 3 i cast shardless agent into ancestral vision, draw 3 cards 2 of whitch thoughtseizes, and 1 land. I play land an i have enough cards to cast 2 thoughtseizes and a liliana use first ability to empty his hand and win.
Round 6
Deck: omnitell
We draw ourselfs into top 4
Thank you for Heroes of the Plane Studios for this awesome sig.
Legacy:
Shardlessless BUG (active)
Shardless BUG (retired)
UW Stoneblade (retired)
Maveric (retired)
Thopters (retired)
Dark Horizons (retired)
Dreadstill (retired)
Armageddon Staxx (retired)
- You think it is over, but Ibraman has just begun...
- When it rains, women get wet.
looking at your list, was garruk worth it? what would you change in hindsight against those match ups about your list? any reason strix doesnt make the cut in your list?
Primer - Mishra, Artificer Prodigy
Thor, Ragnar Röks!
Hela, and the Enemies of Asgard
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
thank you
Garruk.. i dont know if it was worth it... never cast him and always sideboarded him out...
Strix is not in my list because i dont own any and i couldnt find someone to borrow it from...
Changes i would make... My meta is very combo-heavy... so i think removing the garruk mainboard and a thoughtseize for 2 vendilion cliques wouldnt be a wrong choice i think...
as for the sideboard...
i should remove the notion thieves and cliques from my sideboard and add something like... euh... something better in it wouldnt be a waste i guess...
as for the games... the loss against dredge game 1 wasnt necessary and keeping a shaky hand against storm was dumb...
thats about it i guess
Thank you for Heroes of the Plane Studios for this awesome sig.
Legacy:
Shardlessless BUG (active)
Shardless BUG (retired)
UW Stoneblade (retired)
Maveric (retired)
Thopters (retired)
Dark Horizons (retired)
Dreadstill (retired)
Armageddon Staxx (retired)
- You think it is over, but Ibraman has just begun...
- When it rains, women get wet.
i would never play with 4 visions... drawing into them is only good for force of will fodder... 1 in your openingshand is only good if you dont have thoughtseize or deathrite shaman... and 3 does more then i can expect from this deck...
I play only 2 decays... why? because my meta is 60% combo, 30% control and 10% agro... and against most combodecks decay does absolutely nothing...
I own 3 flusterstorms, thats not the problem... i just dont believe they are good against any combo deck... against storm its awesome... but is it also good against omnitell? or against sneakyshow?
playing a list with 3 open slots gives me the possibility to experiment... and thats what im doing at the moment
Thank you for Heroes of the Plane Studios for this awesome sig.
Legacy:
Shardlessless BUG (active)
Shardless BUG (retired)
UW Stoneblade (retired)
Maveric (retired)
Thopters (retired)
Dark Horizons (retired)
Dreadstill (retired)
Armageddon Staxx (retired)
- You think it is over, but Ibraman has just begun...
- When it rains, women get wet.
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt decay
3 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Baleful Strix
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace the Mindsculpter
1 Creeping Tarpit
2 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
Sideboard:
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Force of will
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Submerge
2 Massacre
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pernacious Deed
The only thing I'm fiddling with right now is what to cut for a 4th deathrite, probably a baleful strix, but either way I'm happy with the main and my sb turned out to be perfect for the local meta.
Round 1 Rug
Game one I kept a hand with double waste, two fetches, deathrite, jace, and a fow. I won the roll and lead with fetch into deathrite. He goes tropic into delver. I play a waste and hi the tropic and abrupt (top decked) the delver off of deathrite. He goes tropic into anther delver. I waste again and pass. He flipped delver, but didn't have a land drop. I go fetch into shardless into abrupt and from there it was one sided.
Brought in 2 submerge and 1 hymn for g2 taking out 2 ancestral and 1 strix.
Game two was insanely fast for I kept a double goyf hand with fow protection and he got super mana flooded after mulling to 5
1-0 (2-0)
Round 2 Mud
I'm not going in depth on this one. This was my roommate and we have tested this matchup a lot. There is really no possible way to lose this matchup for Lily, Jace, and Abrupt just wreck this deck and force acts as a catch all, so as long as you can kill that early mana maker, preferably the metal worker, and land a planeswalker you are going to win. Then out of the sideboard deeds just wreck face and get rid of the revokers they bring in to shut down the walkers and it gets rid of goblin welders, who should never be allowed to live more then one turn.
2-0 (4-0)
Round 3 Punishing Maverick
This is one of the guys from my team and I seem to have just rotten luck against him. He quickly mopped he floor with me game one with an active deathrite and a loam waste lock in place.
I board in submerges, massacres, and deeds taking out 3 strix, 2 ancestral, and 1 force.
All that happens is a swords for deathrite and then one for goyf the got Thalia down with a waste lock again. I feel this is just horrible match up and you need just a nuts hand to beat.
2-1 (4-2)
When round 4 standings went up it was very clear who the top 8 were, for some reason of dumb luck the top half all had 6 points except for the two undefeated and the bottom half all had 3 points or less. So the whole top 8 just drew in.
2-1-1
Quarter finals R/W Goblins
I won the roll kept my hand and he mulled to 6. Lead with a fetch and passed. He played mountain into lackey. I dropped a turn two strix drew a goyf. He coldn't deal with the strix and I continued to slow roll the game by dropping Lily and Jace off of shardless into deathrite and wasting his lands.
Took out 2 goyfs, 1 strix and 2 ancestral and put in 3 deeds and 2 massacre. I was concerned about the playset of rest in piece in his sb.
Game two was very fast because of uncounterable Thalia and a ravaging of my mana base from wasteland and ports.
Game two I lead with deathrite, he goes lackey. I play turn 2 Lily and from there he couldn't recover. Shardless did some work here, such as blind flipping an abrupt into his vial I didn't have the force for. I also love wasting his only red source, that happened to be a nasty cavern of souls.
Semi finals TES
I have to admit I was scared going into this. It was a very slow game that involved me always having a force up and him knowing it. So chipped away at his health with a death rite and baleful strix and finally he tried to go off at 8 life with a silence, but he wished for a past in flames with a storm count of 9 and a ad nauseam and burning wish in the grave. So I ate the burning wish in response to past in flames putting him down to 6 and forced him to cast ad, which he used to kill himself when he couldn't find a way out.
I sided in the hymn, force, 4 mindbreak traps, and 2 tormod's taking out 2 ancestral, 3 strix, 2 Jace, and 1 goyf.
I kept a hand with a mindbreak trap, deathrite, and 2 tormod's. He rushed into it on his turn two and went for 18 gobo's that I mindbreak trapped. I proceeded to keep him out of the game with 2 deathrites and a Lily.
Finals Esper blade
I never played this match up, but without a time clock these games were unbelievably long.
Game one I kept a two underground sea hand with a brainstorm, and whole spew of fun green and 3 cmc stuff. Unfortunately I didn't find a 3rd land till around turn 5, so I lost that one to a jace I couldn't stop.
I sb in 1 hymn and both my massacres taking out 1 ancestral, 1 strix, and one goyf.
Game two was a long one. It involved lingering spirits and jaces on each side of the board. Finally I was able to get ahead by casting. Lily and shardless in one turn, followed the next the by chaining my other two Lilys to help jace kill tokens the on the next turn after a spirit killed my 3rd Lily (everybody watching loved the fact that all three Lilys were on top of each in the grave) I proceeded to cast a shardless into a brainstorm that netted me my other jace and another shardless that chained into an ancestral. And all of that stuff just threw the scales off the table and let me swing in for the win the flowing turn.
Game 3 was actually decided quickly by my hymns on turn 2, turn 3, and turn 5 and my shardless that got him down to 10 before I had to go ghost busters on some spirit tokens with a massacre. And from there my goyf, shardless into shaman, and Jace finished him off.
That's how I walked away with $250 and another invite. Sorry for too much detail in some spots and not enough in others. Any questions feel free to shoot them my way and constructive advice is appreciated too.
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
Currently Playing and/or Building:
Legacy:
BUG Shardless BUG BUG
BUG Team America BUG
UBRG Cabal ANT UBRG
Currently Playing and/or Building:
Legacy:
BUG Shardless BUG BUG
BUG Team America BUG
UBRG Cabal ANT UBRG
Congratulations! Did you take away any other opinions on the deck and what was your loss to? I'll be rocking my same list in Milwaukee today, so hopefully I can make something happen for shardless.
Just posted my Tournament Report here on The Source. To answer your question Sir Bill, my biggest takeaway aside from the deck seeming to run better on 23 lands concerns when to side Jace out. I used to side out Jace in just about almost every nonblue fair MU (ex. Goblins, Maverick, D&T, etc). However, I'm not so sure if that is right anymore considering how I kept him in against my Goblins opponent the second time around. In both games of my semifinals round, Jace was the reason I was able to grind my opponent out.
Currently Playing and/or Building:
Legacy:
BUG Shardless BUG BUG
BUG Team America BUG
UBRG Cabal ANT UBRG
Top 8'd modern states with tarmo-twin
The Shardless version at least eats RUG for breakfast already. And given that RUG plays 12 creatures, I don't like them odds.
What bad matchups does Ashiok improve? Not combo, clearly. Jund seems questionable... especially if they have Punishing Fire going.
I like that card a lot. Going to test 1 or 2 in my sb soon. I'm always a fan of versatile sb cards.
Anyways, so one of my buddies who is going to GP DC with me is trying to learn how to play Shardless BUG before then. He played against an Elves player in the swiss at my LGS yesterday. After the match we talked about his sb'ing, which went like the following: -3 Jace, -3 Force of Will, +2 Pernicious Deed, +2 Golgari Charm, +2 Disfigure. I didn't necessarily say he was wrong for sb'ing like that, but I'm not sure about taking out Force of Will against Elves. This is a MU I'm still trying to figure out. Thoughts? What are your plans when you get paired against an Elves player while piloting Shardless BUG? What do you side in and out?
Currently Playing and/or Building:
Legacy:
BUG Shardless BUG BUG
BUG Team America BUG
UBRG Cabal ANT UBRG
Don't think we're dead completely, just in decline. This deck, while not as good against combo as a delver deck, still can fight combo if you adjust your list accordingly. It is often an uphill battle though since we run less disruption than an Esper Stoneblade deck. I think if the meta continues to be combo heavy it might be better to switch to Team America if you want to stay in BUG colors. I'm only playing the deck still because I don't think I can get enough experience with another deck in time for GP DC, but after that I will probably put it down for a while to play other decks.
As for the big fair decks, I don't think RUG is as big right now as UWR Delver. That seems to be the best Delver deck at the moment. However, I never fear a Delver deck with Shardless BUG. We are generally favored in any fair blue mirror. Death and Taxes, on the other hand, is tough. Not unbeatable though. I have beaten them before. My plan currently is to answer all their threats, stabilize, and kill them before they draw into more action. This gets much easier postboard since I bring in more removal including golgari charm and now Toxic Deluge (my answer for anything golgari charm can't take care of like Mirran Crusader). I typically side out my forces and discard. I keep my Jaces in. He's not always good but I like having him in my deck than any discard spells because he's not a terrible topdeck. I've even won games because of him because he found me the answer I needed to stabilize or put the game out of my opponent's reach after stabilizing.
As for taking out the Shardless package, I don't know how I would answer that, but my feeling is that you either become more controlling (pure BUG Control) or more aggro (switch to Team America). I personally think that if you're going to play a BUG midrange deck that Shardless BUG is the best deck for that since the Shardless package enables you to get immediate value if you cascade into visions where old BUG Midrange builds with Dark Confidant have the problem of needing Dark Confidant to stick. That's just my two cents on that topic though. Maybe there's a different BUG Midrange deck we should be playing.
Currently Playing and/or Building:
Legacy:
BUG Shardless BUG BUG
BUG Team America BUG
UBRG Cabal ANT UBRG
List:
4x Shardless Agent
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Deathrite Shaman
2x Baleful Strix
20 Instants/Sorceries:
4x Ancestral Visions
4x Brainstorm
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Force of Will
2x Thoughtseize
2x Hymn to Tourach
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Jace, the Mindsculptor
1x Liliana of the Veil
22 Lands:
3x Underground Sea
2x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
4x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Wasteland
2x Creeping Tarpit
2x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Baleful Strix
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Force of Will
1x Liliana of the Veil
1x Krosan Grip
1x Dismember
I feel like I sided my Jaces out too much. They came out versus combo as being too slow and Tempo decks for being too expensive. I wanted to keep him in versus Maverick and Death and Taxes but their Wastelands made it very difficult to get off the ground with Jace. He did work in control matchups but they were very few and far between. I was thinking of moving the Liliana from the side into the main, going for a 2/2 split on walkers. However, I think I'm playing Jace wrong versus tempo. Thoughts?
My sideboard is probably going to go -1 Deed +1 Deluge. I have K Grip for the non creature permanents I need dead. Deed was nice versus Stoneblade and such but I think I have a good enough matchup to just go Deluge for the spirit tokens.
The Dismember out of the side was to up my spot removal versus creature decks like Maverick. I would really like another point of spot removal for the board but I don't know if Dismember is right.
Post board versus combo I can go up to 4x Thoughtseize 2x Hymn 2x Inquisition 4x Force of Will. Am I oversiding versus Sneak & Show/Storm decks? That's where I'm comfortable versus them but I might be crutching myself too much. I find versus ANT especially, it's important to get in the early discard but also have a FoW for when they attempt Past in Flames/IGG/Ad Nauseum.
Well there's Shardless BUG, the advantage-based control deck that you've seen in the past several pages, and then there's the value-based BUG Walkers lists which are something like 3 or 4 jaces, 2 or 3 Liliana, and 0 or 1 Garruk Relentless, special guest star Pernicious Deed, music by Vendillion Clique.
The core seems to be Brainstorms, Abrupt Decays, Deathrite Shaman (!!!), and Jace/Lili in some number
BUG Walkers gets to run non-Force counter magic because it doesn't have to worry about cascading into Spell Pierce or whatever.
List from SCG:
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/coverage/deck_tech_bug_planeswalkers_wi.html
Eschewed Vendillion Clique for Loam+Raven's Crime.
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Shardless Agent
1x Progenitus
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3x Ancestral Vision
4x Brainstorm
2x Thoughtseize
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Natural Order
3x Force of Will
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
2x Polluted Delta
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Wasteland
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Swamp
1x Forest
It worked pretty well at a small tournament last night. I went 3-1, just losing to an aggro bant deck in a close G3 where he was at 1 and I had 2 draw steps to draw a spell with a DRS in play...land, land. In that time he played a Batterskull and equipped it to TNN. GG. I wasn't playing the Edicts, these are two slots I change around a lot. I was testing Living Wishes, which seemed fine as they got countered all but one time expect against S&T which got a Karakas and the win. The other matches were S&T which I've never really found too much of a problem with, UR Stasis which Abrupt Decay is quite good against and UWR Delver which did go to a G3 but I baited out all the countermagic with removal and liliana's and then NO'd for Progenitus.
One of the problems at the moment is the blue count for FoW which I'll work on.