Personally I play one Guile and one Library - they serve similar functions and both have been useful. Guile is either Treasure Cruise (or better... ie one mana draw three) or in the early game can smooth draws in combination with fetchlands. Library is another potential draw-smoother-outer, or a draw extra if needed. Neither is a game winner and neither is a crap card - they both have their valid uses and are situational enchantments, hence why I only run one of each.
Interesting game state yesterday. I was at 2 life with Emrakul and Ulamog on the field, along with a crap ton of enchantments. Opponent was playing a wacky deck and was at a million life (minus a few Eldrazi swings). I had exactly Green Sun Zenith left, continually recasting it and failing to find to avoid decking myself. While he had land and Altar of the Brood, he had no zero-drop things with which to mill me one and win. Pretty odd board state, and eventually I would win via mill, but we got a laugh that if he had a Memnite or a Darksteel Relic (because those were the funny options) he could just hold out for land - altar - zero-drop and mill my Zenith.
I've said it many times. Pitch land to solitary and I survive the turn. My assumption is I don't know the top 3 cards since I wouldn't. My chances of drawing an out are the same as yours. But if I am in a blatant onboard dead setting I don't see why I would lose the one card keeping me alive when it is clear I can survive a turn and still see 3 cards. Like I said the onus of killing me should be on my opponent, not myself, which is the line you are suggesting. I have survived a turn longer then you by not knowing how my library is ordered.
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There really shouldn't be much of a debate.
Sylvan Library > mirri's guile
With your line, you'll survive the turn but will be forced to sac confinement on the next turn. If you don't have library, you'll draw the fetch and die. If you have library, you'll see two new cards in addition to the fetch and get to draw one of them. Your outs are (supposedly) Replenish and Confinement.
If anything all I'm seeing here now is that even with guile you are still making the wrong play for some reason. You still pitch the land to keep solitary around. And also as mentioned before I draw all 3 with sylvan
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I would not change my line of play with sylvan or guile in that situation. The line of play with guile is discard land, draw the fetch and other with enchantment, play fetch. This lets you see 3 new cards on the actual turn you may need to sacrifice solitary while also removing potential dead draws.
You also had no such life restriction originally which you are clearly now forced to include to make a point. If you are being forced to create a scenario where you are correct, as it seems your are trying, then I no longer have a point to make.
Also facing lethal just means you will die if you do nothing in the most general sense of the word. It is possible to be at 20+ life and still be facing lethal damage.
Preferring a card also does not make it better. And while I prefer sylvan, it is a better card. That one additional mana allows for so many more options.
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Sylvan Library backers, why do you think Enchantress decks have played Mirri's Guile nearly 7 times as often as Sylvan Library, according to my research? Sincere question to see what you think the reason is.
It does, all except for one thing...the mana cost.
Sometimes we need to be able to drop a CMC 1 card to draw 2-4 cards. Ghostly Prison is too expensive.
Exactly. (Well technically it also stops black creatures from attacking, so there are two things that elephant grass does better.) Can you see an analogy to the guile vs library debate?
Not really. Library is so much more flexible. Additionally, the difference in mana cost is one, not two. Plus, if the situation warrants it (as it often does), you can just out and out draw the two other cards you got from Sylvan Library.
I'm not going to tell you that you'rr foolish for playing Mirri's Guile, but to say that it's ideal or better than Sylvan Library is a huge stretch.
As you stated, it's probably about which one you prefer. I prefer Sylvan Library, and apparently so does WeaponX. You prefer Guile. Play Guile, and we'll play library.
Sylvan Library backers, why do you think Enchantress decks have played Mirri's Guile nearly 7 times as often as Sylvan Library, according to my research? Sincere question to see what you think the reason is.
Well, in my opinion, the deck doesn't need either of the cards to do what it needs to do. On turn 3-4, with your engine online, you're probably not in a spot where you desperately need to fix draws.
If I were to play either one, however, I'd probably play Sylvan Library. The ability to actually draw the cards will come in handy.
Guile doesn't affect anything other than you get to (sort of) Ponder on each of your upkeeps. Past turn 3, you're looking at the cards you were going to draw anyway.
Tapped out I like library more in the deck because it functions like another enchantress effect without the drawbacks associated with something like green Suns zenith.
Tapped out I like library more in the deck because it functions like another enchantress effect without the drawbacks associated with something like green Suns zenith.
Isn't that efficiency one of the determining factors in which card is better, though? I'm not saying it's impossible for that many players to be wrong, but I would find it curious. Certainly we should do our own testing to make evidence-based decisions.
Guys I think we are devolving a little bit here, the overall consensus over the entirety of the thread has been that Mirri's Guile is more optimal due to the fact that it is entirely synonymous with our overall strategy.
Weighing the odds, Library seems to be more of a damper than it will help us. Looking at our overall gameplan, we want to be dropping an enchantress effect on turn 2 not casting sylvan library. So that leaves the library to come down earliest on turn 3. As a prison style deck we also use our life total as a resource.
In a metagame filled with delvers and bolts, do we really want to be paying 4 life on turn 3-4 to draw a card? Probably not. We can draw multiple cards by just playing magic. So library is not great in the early game.
The early-middle/middle game seems to be where it is okay.
Now looking at library in our middle/late game it doesn't seem that good either because at this point in the game we want our solitary confinement on board, and this turns library into a paper weight.
It isn't clear cut efficiency though either because they function a little differently. Like I just mentioned to Tapped Out, I consider library enchantress #9. With that as a thought guile is just a filter while library is a single card engine. The efficiency talk thus gets skewed quite fast. Even considering words of war as a common win con adds to what library can contribute where guile doesn't. The additional mana cost truly goes a long way.
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It isn't clear cut efficiency though either because they function a little differently. Like I just mentioned to Tapped Out, I consider library enchantress #9. With that as a thought guile is just a filter while library is a single card engine. The efficiency talk thus gets skewed quite fast. Even considering words of war as a common win con adds to what library can contribute where guile doesn't. The additional mana cost truly goes a long way.
Ah! I didn't think of it combo'ing so well with Words of War.
I don't run it anymore, but that does make a lot ot sense.
I don't even no where to begin. Sylvan library doesn't need fetchlands to be good could be a place to start but I'll leave it at your example and line of play. Let's highlight it here again:
-I have confinement out with a guile in play. I only have 2 cards in hand, a land and an enchantment
- I am facing lethal. If I lose confinement I die.
- I guile seeing only lands and choose to sacrifice confinement.
I'll end there as that's as far as we need to go. You have shown me that with perfect information you will make the wrong/bad play. You have confirmed by doing so that those cards don't matter as far as decision making goes. The order/information gained from guile didn't change your line of play.
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I have explained even using your tools and set up that you should be in a better position while you have chosen to not be for some reason. Simply by keeping solitary I'm at %100 survival for the turn which seems naturally better to your touted %20. Regardless of guile or library there is no reason to sacrifice solitary if you are facing lethal. It boggles my mind that even given the information guile has given, you choose to gamble when you are potentially put in a position to win the following turn instead.
I'm done with this. I made my point long ago and it was overlooked.
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I laid out your line of play for you. Sacrificing confinement isn't necessary facing lethal in your doctored position. Your argument is also flawed since you are literally stacking the deck in your favour. You know 3 cards, I do not. Our odds are the same.
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Our odds are the same because I am going in blind. Without knowing the cards I have the same chance of drawing a needed card as you minus your added decision tree.
Your line is still wrong, especially with your doctored information. I will not apologize for drawing it to your attention.
Again I'm done with this. We can return to our regularly scheduled enchantress thread. This "discussion" has stopped being profitable to anyone a while ago.
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I don't know, getting hit by card draw hosers (which are more popular right now) and having to draw one of the three seems meh. Guile + Fetch ~= Ponder, Library + Fetch ~= Preordain. Ponder > Preordain before you consider that Library costs more mana and has the potential to hose you. I'm guessing (it's hard to tell) that the whole argument was "With library I can draw an extra card" where as with Guile it's "I can see three, fetch now, and see card #4, giving me one extra card I can see this turn."
This is similar to the Top vs. Library arguments I've had in Junk threads, where Library *can* be better, but so can Top. I think guile fits this deck because while I like Library, decks that run it typically have Batterskull and Jitte (at a minimum) for life gain. One extra mana in this deck is very relevant during turns 1-3 as well. If you have Utopia, Grass, Argothian Enchantress, you get to play all three and reap all of the benefits. Library makes you wait. Library's extra mana is harder to get ideal sequences from a strictly "outsider" viewpoint, and drawing more cards in a deck that (basically all it does is) draw cards doesn't seem that compelling.
The number of decks library is worse against is pretty obnoxiously large since you don't have chumps or real interaction and Library walks into Soft Counters much more easily. Considering it will likely come online a turn later, the earlier card quality (and the fact you can fetch away the 3 cards before drawing) is likely to add up to a better card (EDIT: In a deck with no lifegain, pervasive card draw, and relies on combos)
Tescrin, you are exactly right. Thats how this mess started. Now we are at weird subargument where WeaponX thinks that knowing the top of the library isn't useful, that I am incompetent to play this game and that I can't do math. We're not even debating whether Mirri's Guile is better than Sylvan Library anymore.
I can't speak directly for WeaponX, but I don't think anyone thinks you are foolish or that you can't play this deck because of your viewpoint on Mirri's Guile.
I actually don't run either of them because I don't really find the effect to be useful. But if I did, I'd probably play Library because there are times when I might want to pay the 4 or 8 life to get those extra cards.
So im new to the site, and recently built Enchantress. Heres my list id like feedback if possible and would appreciate it greatly. Also dont know how to format O_O so please forgive me.
2 Helm of Obedience
2 Abundant Growth
3 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Green Sun's Zenith
10 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Plains
4 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
Sideboard
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Stony Silence
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Choke
1 City of Solitude
1 Karmic Justice
3 Carpet of Flowers
So im new to the site, and recently built Enchantress. Heres my list id like feedback if possible and would appreciate it greatly. Also dont know how to format O_O so please forgive me.
2 Helm of Obedience
2 Abundant Growth
3 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Green Sun's Zenith
10 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Plains
4 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
Sideboard
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Stony Silence
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Choke
1 City of Solitude
1 Karmic Justice
3 Carpet of Flowers
Format it using the "deck" tags. you just use [ and ] with the word "deck" in the middle at the beginning, then at the end you use [ and ] with /deck in the middle to close it.
Carpet of Flowers has been excellent for explosive purposes i recommend it, and stony silence is for miracles, its a must to get off the board for them because their top is shut off. Also has some good use for affinity, equipment decks. Any match up where i feel i need to side out helm or the riphelm package ill bring in stony silence, but im still testing the sideboard.
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Interesting game state yesterday. I was at 2 life with Emrakul and Ulamog on the field, along with a crap ton of enchantments. Opponent was playing a wacky deck and was at a million life (minus a few Eldrazi swings). I had exactly Green Sun Zenith left, continually recasting it and failing to find to avoid decking myself. While he had land and Altar of the Brood, he had no zero-drop things with which to mill me one and win. Pretty odd board state, and eventually I would win via mill, but we got a laugh that if he had a Memnite or a Darksteel Relic (because those were the funny options) he could just hold out for land - altar - zero-drop and mill my Zenith.
Yeah I know, not relevant, but it was funny
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Sometimes we need to be able to drop a CMC 1 card to draw 2-4 cards. Ghostly Prison is too expensive.
Sylvan Library > mirri's guile
If anything all I'm seeing here now is that even with guile you are still making the wrong play for some reason. You still pitch the land to keep solitary around. And also as mentioned before I draw all 3 with sylvan
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Tiny Leaders Overlord
You also had no such life restriction originally which you are clearly now forced to include to make a point. If you are being forced to create a scenario where you are correct, as it seems your are trying, then I no longer have a point to make.
Also facing lethal just means you will die if you do nothing in the most general sense of the word. It is possible to be at 20+ life and still be facing lethal damage.
Preferring a card also does not make it better. And while I prefer sylvan, it is a better card. That one additional mana allows for so many more options.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/661941-list-of-stores-that-support-legacy
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28892-Compilation-Of-Legacy-Streams
I'm not going to tell you that you'rr foolish for playing Mirri's Guile, but to say that it's ideal or better than Sylvan Library is a huge stretch.
As you stated, it's probably about which one you prefer. I prefer Sylvan Library, and apparently so does WeaponX. You prefer Guile. Play Guile, and we'll play library.
If I were to play either one, however, I'd probably play Sylvan Library. The ability to actually draw the cards will come in handy.
Guile doesn't affect anything other than you get to (sort of) Ponder on each of your upkeeps. Past turn 3, you're looking at the cards you were going to draw anyway.
Tapped out I like library more in the deck because it functions like another enchantress effect without the drawbacks associated with something like green Suns zenith.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Isn't that efficiency one of the determining factors in which card is better, though? I'm not saying it's impossible for that many players to be wrong, but I would find it curious. Certainly we should do our own testing to make evidence-based decisions.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/661941-list-of-stores-that-support-legacy
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28892-Compilation-Of-Legacy-Streams
Weighing the odds, Library seems to be more of a damper than it will help us. Looking at our overall gameplan, we want to be dropping an enchantress effect on turn 2 not casting sylvan library. So that leaves the library to come down earliest on turn 3. As a prison style deck we also use our life total as a resource.
In a metagame filled with delvers and bolts, do we really want to be paying 4 life on turn 3-4 to draw a card? Probably not. We can draw multiple cards by just playing magic. So library is not great in the early game.
The early-middle/middle game seems to be where it is okay.
Now looking at library in our middle/late game it doesn't seem that good either because at this point in the game we want our solitary confinement on board, and this turns library into a paper weight.
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Tiny Leaders Overlord
I don't run it anymore, but that does make a lot ot sense.
-I have confinement out with a guile in play. I only have 2 cards in hand, a land and an enchantment
- I am facing lethal. If I lose confinement I die.
- I guile seeing only lands and choose to sacrifice confinement.
I'll end there as that's as far as we need to go. You have shown me that with perfect information you will make the wrong/bad play. You have confirmed by doing so that those cards don't matter as far as decision making goes. The order/information gained from guile didn't change your line of play.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
I have explained even using your tools and set up that you should be in a better position while you have chosen to not be for some reason. Simply by keeping solitary I'm at %100 survival for the turn which seems naturally better to your touted %20. Regardless of guile or library there is no reason to sacrifice solitary if you are facing lethal. It boggles my mind that even given the information guile has given, you choose to gamble when you are potentially put in a position to win the following turn instead.
I'm done with this. I made my point long ago and it was overlooked.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Your line is still wrong, especially with your doctored information. I will not apologize for drawing it to your attention.
Again I'm done with this. We can return to our regularly scheduled enchantress thread. This "discussion" has stopped being profitable to anyone a while ago.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
This is similar to the Top vs. Library arguments I've had in Junk threads, where Library *can* be better, but so can Top. I think guile fits this deck because while I like Library, decks that run it typically have Batterskull and Jitte (at a minimum) for life gain. One extra mana in this deck is very relevant during turns 1-3 as well. If you have Utopia, Grass, Argothian Enchantress, you get to play all three and reap all of the benefits. Library makes you wait. Library's extra mana is harder to get ideal sequences from a strictly "outsider" viewpoint, and drawing more cards in a deck that (basically all it does is) draw cards doesn't seem that compelling.
The number of decks library is worse against is pretty obnoxiously large since you don't have chumps or real interaction and Library walks into Soft Counters much more easily. Considering it will likely come online a turn later, the earlier card quality (and the fact you can fetch away the 3 cards before drawing) is likely to add up to a better card (EDIT: In a deck with no lifegain, pervasive card draw, and relies on combos)
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
Granted I'm running zero Solitary with my build. So I am more focused on turns 3-5 as my going off turns. Late game for me is rare.
I actually don't run either of them because I don't really find the effect to be useful. But if I did, I'd probably play Library because there are times when I might want to pay the 4 or 8 life to get those extra cards.
MTG Efficiency police here. I'm gonna have to issue you a citation for non optimal decision making.
I think we can both agree that choosing either in this case is better than choosing none. Card selection is good, really good.
2 Helm of Obedience
2 Abundant Growth
3 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Green Sun's Zenith
10 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Plains
4 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
Sideboard
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Stony Silence
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Choke
1 City of Solitude
1 Karmic Justice
3 Carpet of Flowers
How has Carpet of Flowers been working for you?