I have been a believer in Freggle's ideas (a user on mtgthesource) who has blossomed the original idea of the Helm...
Thank you for the kind words SovietOlga many have helped along the way.
I may have just hit a major breakthrough with this build! A real eureka moment! Actually, it is Eureka.
You know those hands where you have a fistful of cards and you run out of mana so you discard a ton. Not any more. Just drop them all into play.
I also won just by dropping in T3 via Eureka (saw i was clear with Probe) RIP / Helm and a land.
At first I thought this could be a decent sideboard strategy to just be faster than other combo decks now I'm seeing it may have main board hopes, and we can sale back or up with Eureka pending on the match, and how good the strategy is against them.
What happens if your opponent chooses not to put a permanent in play when you cast Eureka? Your hand will still be full.
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The only real hate for Enchantress that I'm seeing right now is splash hate in the form of Disenchant, and unfortunately with the release of Theros, I'm seeing a small amount of Swan Song showing up as well, which has the unfortunate effect of splash hating a lot of what we are trying to do.
The problem with Sigil of the Empty Throne is the same reason why I run Words of Wind - I am afraid of decking myself in the process of making a sufficient number of tokens to actually win the game. All in all, since our only creatures have Shroud, we blank all creature removal excepting Edict effects (darn you, TNN, for making those a better meta-call) naturally, and playing the Sigil win condition opens us up to making all those removal spells live again. Since we generally have to draw 30 cards already before dropping Sigil and will usually have 3 Enchantress effects online before we win, every removal spell brings us three cards closer to decking ourselves. Words of War / Wind helps us in that regard to keep us from decking ourselves, but if we have a Words engine operational, Sigil seems redundant. It's also the worst win condition in the mirror, for what it's worth, due to Solitary and Sphere / Grass. Plus, you don't win until at least two turns after you play it - one to make the Angels and a second turn to swing with them.
I agree about increasing the number of RIP from 1 to 3. I'd rather keep the 4th copy as a Ground Seal due to the cycle effect.
Uncounterability + Inevitability is my reason for the Emakul, in addition to being able to shuffle in cards that got countered or discarded earlier in the game. With Serra's Sanctum + Karakas, Emrakul gives me access to nearly infinite turns and annihilation, guaranteeing the win. Woe be to the player who has his/her Sigil Countered, a RIP on the board, and now has no way to win the game.
Honestly, in order to combat faster combo decks, it may be correct to just go all in on RIP / Helm, put 3-4 RIP / 3 Helm / 2-3 Energy Field, include Enchantress effects for draw, run a basic shell of hate to protect it, and try to combo out on turn 4 while crushing the tempo decks such as RUG Delver and "fair" decks such as Maverick and Jund. At the very least, at least this plan gives a fighting chance at racing Elves.
I find it it interesting that so many of you are railing against the crux that this deck has always had: faster combo. If your answer is to combo out turn 4, then I'm here to tell that that is too slow. Our engine/shell isn't redundant enough to be consistent in killing sooner than that. In order to make it so, you end up sacrificing many of the things which allow us to crush Tempo Decks. So why not just build TES or the like? They still beat fair decks, and combo off within the few couple of turns on a very consistent basis.
I will also continue to repeat the fact that if you are worried about decking yourself, you need more practice with this deck. I have never once done so and have been playing this deck for a number of years.
I am also curious as to how many of you that are advocating the use of Emrakul are simply theorycrafting, or if you have, in fact, played with it for a great deal of time. I once ran it in my deck, but too often it was a dead card. In your opener, it might as well be a mulligan. Without sanctum, a dead draw. And by the time it was relevant, any win con would do. You all seem to be forgetting that by the time you are resolving a win con, the blue decks have already exhausted their counterspells. That is the main point with our redundancy. And if a win con was countered, replenish was there to finish the job. Replenish has NEVER served it's primary function as a card to counteract enchantment destructive, but as the last nail in the coffin against blue decks.
Allow me to also add that energy field will do less than nothing against combo decks not named reanimator or dredge. Tendrils doesn't care, that's for sure. And by lowering the count of sterling groves, they'll just bounce whatever tenuous lock piece you have out anyway. Or elves will kill it with Terrastadon.
You used the word ineveitability to describe emrakul, and sigil is that as well. With a lock, which is very consistent in the original shell, you only need an angel or 2 to win the game. I would also like to point to your discussion on getting your sigil countered with a RiP out. Might I ask why you'd play a RiP against a blue deck not named reanimator? If it's a silver bullet, you ignore it because replenish is better. If it's not, you aren't running replenish anyway. "Woe is the player who..." is not going to be an issue for someone that has designed their deck properly, or is careful about their board state. And in the case of reanimator you better hope for the nuts draw, even with RiP/Helm.
In regards to elves, I guarantee this isn't as constistent as them. They almost always go off turn 3 and sometimes even turn 2.
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure most of you understand the function of enchantress and the meta in which it functions well in. It is primarily a prison deck and a combo deck secondly. I say that because or combo is not one that gets online and kills instantly. Our engine is slow, and takes several turns to build up to that, but is consistent in doing so. We thrive primarily in a blue and fair deck dominated field. Combo generally will never comprise a majority of any given large tournament you may attend. RiP/Helm is all well and good, but please don't delude yourselves in to thinking it's as consistent or fast as true combo decks. You'll be in for a rude surprise. Each deck has an Achilles heel, which is exactly why Legacy is enjoyable. It is impossible to completely irradicate a weakness. We can do our best to mitigate them, though.
I feel as if too many of you are pulling this deck into too many directions and all that is doing is diluting this deck's function. Does that mean it's wrong to experiment? Of course not. But experiment with the understanding that there is a point in which you must recognize that a deck isn't capable enough of the functions you desire. At which juncture it may be wiser to play a different deck.
Keep in mind this deck has been around for a great deal of time, and during its hayday, the only deck capable of comboing consistently before turn 3 was Spanish Inquisition. A deck so difficult to pilot that it was rarely seen in tournaments. The next most powerful combo deck was solidarity, and it rarely went off before turn 5. Cards like ad nauseum, emrakul, griselbrand, heritage druid, didn't exist. Even entomb was banned.
Why do I mention all those things? Simply because I do not believe this deck, in its original GWr version is anywhere near dead as most of you might think. the meta is not 100% combo, and I still believe that to be the hardest thing to overcome. Everything else is at least manageable if you are willing to learn the matchups, your own deck, and lines of play. And if combo comes to dominate, merfolk and tempo decks will come out of the woodworks, and we do very well against both.
There is an ebb and flow in metas, don't forget that. There are certain times in which decks aren't playable, but I do not believe that is the case for us. Not yet.
P.S. Freggle, Eureka is actually a very interesting card to consider. It certainly has my attention. Don't take any of this an affront to the work you have done on the RiP/Helm version. I simply like to point out certain facts that people tend to forget when discussing the two decks.
Well said cthulhudude23. As you know from our conversations both on other sites and Facebook I think that you are one of if not the best active Enchantress player I know to date.
I agree with you that GWr is not dead nor do I think I ever supported saying it was. When people quote things like saying x deck isn’t putting up numbers I always think to myself how many people are jamming it.
Since the internet decks go in fads and Enchantress hasn’t been a fad in a long time so in a big tournament lets say there are 28 RUG players 10 Reanimator and 2 Enchantress players. 1 out of the 2 enchantress players hits top 16 and gets knocked out by the 2 reanimator deck they hit.
The top 8 is filled with 6 rug and 2 reanimators. Who going to be jamming Enchantress the next week?
It’s a numbers game, and with more people jamming popular decks the more you should see them in the top 8. It’s a self-fulfilling cycle.
Beyond that you touched on some a few main topics:
Enchantress as Prison, Enchantress vs. Combo, Emrakul & Replenish vs. RIP
Enchantress as Prison
Yes Enchantress is a prison deck. The only version that I know of that isn't really technically prison and is more combo is the GU Words of Wind build.
...but how different is GW Helm from GWr Solitare? Looking at your 2012 SCG list compared to my last tested list lets look at the variances.
-1 City of Solitude -1 Elephant Grass -1 Moat
-1 Oblivion Ring
-2 Replenish
-1 Runed Halo
-1 Sigil
-2 Sterling Grove
- 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
-1 Words of War
-2 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Mirri’s Guile +1 Sphere of Safety
+3 RIP
+3 Probe
+3 Abundant Growth
+2 Helm
+3 Green Sun’s
…of the Prison cards I’m GW Helm is missing technically (2) Moat and (1) Egrass. The Moat is a swap to Sphere, and the E grass could be a probe. A quasi non-slot. Most of the other cards are in the deck to help you draw into either the prison lock or the helm combo even under extreme duress.
At both decks hearts they are prison decks.
Enchantress vs. combo
You said it best in that every deck has a nemesis, but I do believe that it can be mitigated. This is where the going theory of GWr and GW helm diverge. GWr is a more toolbox and tutor for what you need. Whereas GW Helm is intended to be more of a trust in the draw and draw into what you need.
Look at some of the best Chameleon decks. Like Stoneforge They can splash 1 or 2 cards and change a match because of all the library manipulation and draw they have. GW Helm tried to mimic that style of play. Always going positive CA digging and searching… When you replace a Elephant Grass with a Mirri’s Guile what is the percentages that the guile will find the statistical 3 guile. It is pretty close to pretty good. …but guile also help you dig out of a rough start, or keeps the draw chain going with clever uses of fetches. …but I digress. In the toolbox approach you are limited to Enchantment hate to tutor for (sometimes artifacts if Enlightened Tutor is used.) Whereas in the GW search and dig it is only preferable to be an enchantment.
In my opinion the latest builds of the GW Helm are better vs combo because of a few reasons. You can find your hate faster on average. We still have Leyline / grove. …and we can use our (3) Green Suns’s as hate. (Gaddock)
The best way to date for GW helm to fight combo is Gaddock and 3-4 Mindbreak Trap. People will tell you that Mindbreak Trap sucks, but it does not in Enchantress. Storm, Tide… can not board in all of their hate, and since we are permanent based, and Leyline is expected they typically board out all of the discard / silences / Counters for bounce. When they bounce our first piece of hate to clear the go off. Trap usually gets them if you’re lucky enough to have found it by then.
Emrakul
I too at one point grew to hate, yes hate, Emrakul in Enchantress. So much so I refused to put it into GW helm for a long time. Then I saw this. A GW helm list that 4-0 a daily (again I only have gone 3-1) piloted by dichotoma. As I am told by others on MTGO he is the Japanese Enchantress master his blog can be found here(use google translate.) His list featured Emrakul . I have tested GW Helm extensively I play on MTGO a ton till I burn out and have to walk away for a bit to regain clarity. I have likely over 100 matches with the deck, and I have to say I have drawn out something like 5 times. What happened is at some point blue players stopped trying to counter my enchantress effects and just went to counter the helm and sigil. Or some combo of Meddling mage and counters… So when I saw the list that 4-0ed I decided to try it out to see what Iwas missing. First match I played was against painted stone. It was the turn 2 or 3 kill and I scooped, but when I was in sideboarding I laughed because I forgot I had Emrakul. Game 2 I beat him, and game 3 he got the “kill” but Emrakul just shuffled the deck back together. The guy said it was lame and I tried to tell him that it was in there all along, but who would believe that even if it were the truth.
Then I played more, by this time I had ticked up to (4) Sanctum’s. …and it is like SovietOlga says you just poop out Emrakuls now with the new Legend rule. I played 3-4 matches today I surprisingly killed with Helm 1 game I think, and I’m not even trying to cast him.
Then go back to the blue games where the miracles player would switch modes and go for the draw out. Inspired by D’s list I have been testing (4) Carpet of Flowers. This match is now much closer to a walk in the park than it has been, as that card gets you around the taxing counters very quick and puts the beatings on once an Enchantress resolves. Then it also makes it stupid easy to drop Emrakul.
The decking also goes for Brain Freeze with gives us typically more times to draw into Mindbreak Trap against High Tide as they will Spiral More looking for the Blue Sun’s.
Then there is also Hypergenesis, and Show and Tell
Having played him for over a month, racking up maybe something like 30+ matches. I will say it is better than Sigil in this build.
Replenish vs. RIP
This is likely a meta call period. I will say however it has come in handy multiple times to just oops I win with Helm / RIP, but I have done this with Sigil as well.
I don't post much in here but I read the conversations a lot. As far as win conditions are concerned, as well as people's discussions about show and tell. How do you guys feel about running Forbidden Orchard and Defense of the Heart, and run an Emrakul and Progenitus?
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Legacy: Enchantress GWR 2010-Current
I'm also always looking for friendly players in League of Legends IGN Dread Return, doesn't have to be competitive, just be nice and friendly.
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I don't like it, as the near ubiquity of Wasteland makes it easier for the tempo decks to make us fault on our early mana and keeps the taxing counters (i.e. Daze) relevant longer than they ought to be. The fact that we run 10-11 basic lands and only 4 fetchlands means that the Daze / Stifle / Wasteland plan doesn't really do a whole lot against us, as they can't easily keep us off enough mana to reliably cast our spells through their tempo counterspells.
Forbidden Orchard doesn't seem like it has much of a downside due to Sphere of Safety / Moat and Elephant Grass to keep early game pressure off our backs, but Wasteland Susceptibility is a considerable detriment, and I like the fact that this deck doesn't really care much about the card (also, we can play Back to Basics, which also punishes greedy manabases).
On another note:
One of the things that does make this deck poorly positioned is that the rise of True-Name Nemesis has greatly increased the prevalence of sacrifice and -X/-X effects as ways of getting around the 3/1 mini-Progenitus, and in case it's not widely disseminated, Golgari Charm from the BGx decks is not a card I really like to see, since they can nuke both Enchantresses and Presence at their leisure. Karmic Justice helps, but at the same time, Diabolic Edict and Innocent Blood are nasty pieces of splash hate against us.
Has anyone considered a way around or through these hate cards? At the risk of going too deep, a card such as Gaea's Anthem would be one way to get around Golgari Charm...
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This is pretty much the entire mentality I'm trying to correct.
Is emrakul uncounterable? Yes
Does it get you an extra turn? Yes
Is it good in this deck? No.
What people seem to miss is that while yes, enchantress can produce 15 mana, you're still gonna have less than 15 a lot more than you'll have 15. If you want to chain your legendary lands together, fine, its cute, but again - why would you spend 15 mana going for a creature which doesn't actually win to anyone running any non-targeted removal (a brainstormed terminus in your turn, edicts, etc) when you have RIP helm. With Emrakul, you are going to have far more times you can't cast it vs times you can, where helm requires less than half the mana to actually win, leaving you 8 of the 15 to dig to the 2 card combo (which should be in any deck running it as a 3 helm 4 RIP split if you want to use it).
and as to Sigil not being good... it was THE goto win con for the deck from the day it was printed... you're telling me that it got that status without a good reason?
Even without running Emrakul (which I would highly advise avoiding), has won me countless games, in which I would have no other way of winning. Emrakul is an uncounterable monster that msot decks cannot deal with otherwise.
Just yesterday Emrakul saved the day when they popped down a platinum angel. At this point, they were in a hard lock since I had Sphere of Safety down along side 10+ enchantments. I was getting close to decking myself, when I finally drew him. I decided to mill out his entire deck using Helm/RIP combo to prevent him from drawing anything else. However it wasn't enough until I shat out the "Fattie" with a sanctum and took another turn and attacked. He managed to keep his angel alive, and was able to chump block. But then, my trusty karakas just bounced it back to my hand for another lashing of timewalks, inhalator and 15 damage.
Sigil, although is a decent win condition is not always a game winner. A smart player will hold their counters back and wait for your win condition to be played then countered. Where as Emrakul is a guaranteed win if the board is stale. Obviously, Emrakul isn't the first effort to close a game, but it does the job with the Helm cannot.
EDIT:
Drifting Skies - I also noticed the popularity of Gogari Charm as of late as well. It really does threaten the entire deck;furthermore, it often accompanied by 3-4 Abrupt Decays which make an enchantress player cry. The Solution? I'm not entirely sure, perhaps Karmic Guide or an increased number of Sterling Groves? What do you guys think? Personally, I feel that Enchantress almost always scoops to a BGx deck, as they also tend to play some Hymn to Torarch
I run a single Karakas in my main, it has never really bothered me, but I never actually found an opportunity to use it. I feel like it may come i handy against SnT, but being a singleton in a deck where I have no way of actually reliably getting it just doesn't seem right.
How do you guys/girls feel about Karakas? Is it better to just replace it with another basic? I have a crap ton of guru lands waiting to belong in its sleeve so the pimping value will remain :P.
Oh I don't use rest in peace as a grave hate, I just prefer the flexibility of Wheel of Sun and Moon as far as casting cost as well as versatility of protecting myself from other decks' mill strategies.
I run a non-RIP-build, with replenish, on a GW deck btw if it makes ny difference as far as running or not running a single Karakas.
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Legacy: Enchantress GWR 2010-Current
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I run a single Karakas in my main, it has never really bothered me, but I never actually found an opportunity to use it. I feel like it may come i handy against SnT, but being a singleton in a deck where I have no way of actually reliably getting it just doesn't seem right.
How do you guys/girls feel about Karakas? Is it better to just replace it with another basic? I have a crap ton of guru lands waiting to belong in its sleeve so the pimping value will remain :P.
Oh I don't use rest in peace as a grave hate, I just prefer the flexibility of Wheel of Sun and Moon as far as casting cost as well as versatility of protecting myself from other decks' mill strategies.
I run a non-RIP-build, with replenish, on a GW deck btw if it makes ny difference as far as running or not running a single Karakas.
I'm curious as to what your wins are in a GW build without RIP. ...and to answer your question on Karakas I don't think there is a definitive answer outside of at least 1 in an unkown meta.
Asking a question like this without posting your list will likely delay your answer. If it was your only non-basic then 2-3 would be fine. ...but then again why wouldn't you be running Serra's Sanctum? ...the question is how many?
Yes yes...I know that's more than a 15 card sideboard. That's where I feel like I'm a little unfocused. I'd like the Mindbreaks to give me a chance against fast combo. I like the RiP/Helm just as an extra win-con that works a surprising amount of the time that I board it in. Emrakul is there for the added something against Show and Tell. I dunno. Very open to suggestions all around.
I only recently added the Chrome Mox in. I like the speed up I've seen in testing so far, though I'm not committed to it until I've gotten more games in.
Personally, I believe that Rest In Peace should be a 4 of in every enchantress build as the new standard. Most Legacy decks uses the graveyard on a regular basis, having this mb hate helps give me you an advantage on that premise alone.
Running four seems bad to me. You don't really want to see more than one, and there are tutors to find them. I run two in the side. I like running Ground Seal main - it's never a dead card as it cantrips, and it doesn't hose Replenish
I don't think Replenish is worthy of a slot anymore, as it's outdated. No one really packs enchantress hate...
As is mentioned in the post I quote bellow, we are seeing more splash hate. Replenish also brings back Sterling Grove (which can lock the game up for us) or countered combo pieces, silver bullets, and win-cons.
I agree with you that GWr is not dead nor do I think I ever supported saying it was. When people quote things like saying x deck isn’t putting up numbers I always think to myself how many people are jamming it.
I tend to think (in theory) that Naya Enchantress had ought to be better positioned than the results indicate. I realise the lack of players dampens the results, but surely if the deck is viable somebody would have made a major top eight in the last how many years? Has the deck even had top sixteens in the last year?
Of course in addition to not being well represented, this is a very difficult deck to always play well (IMO). Players might try the deck once and quickly become discouraged. Also many players simply aren't interested in prison decks - most people prefer creature decks or fast combo decks.
One of the things that does make this deck poorly positioned is that the rise of True-Name Nemesis has greatly increased the prevalence of sacrifice and -X/-X effects as ways of getting around the 3/1 mini-Progenitus, and in case it's not widely disseminated, Golgari Charm from the BGx decks is not a card I really like to see, since they can nuke both Enchantresses and Presence at their leisure.
Add to that that Pox has been on the rise, and that's possibly lour worst match ever (I think I'd rather face Belcher). If Pox become tier one, Enchantress players might be very sad.
I love the deck - I will continue to play it, tweak it, discuss it, etc. I seem to hold my own with it in my local scene (which is very well developed and diverse) Still, I'm not sure it's such a good choice right now. We could really use some love from this supposed enchantment block. I'd like to see this as a solid tier 1.5 - enough to be a serious threat, but not enough to have to play a bunch of mirrors.
I'm curious as to what your wins are in a GW build without RIP. ...and to answer your question on Karakas I don't think there is a definitive answer outside of at least 1 in an unkown meta.
Asking a question like this without posting your list will likely delay your answer. If it was your only non-basic then 2-3 would be fine. ...but then again why wouldn't you be running Serra's Sanctum? ...the question is how many?
Oh sorry for the late response, too much online game and not enough magic lol. The list I am using is this...
I am not a fan of Rest in Peace, plus there are a few situations where I prefer the versatility of wheel as it can protect me from the mill strategies of other decks, easier to cast, and doesn't hurt my replenish.
I didn't think posting the deck list was was necessary, but here it is if it would help. All I am wondering was if karakas is still in favor off for simply being there just for "in case" scenarios, although we have no way to reliably get it. Thanks for the response.
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[S3 - Diamond, S4 - Diamond, S5 - Diamond, Current Season - Diamond] Primary role Support, Secondary MID Lane, Alternate Jungle.
I am wondering was if karakas is still in favor off for simply being there just for "in case" scenarios, although we have no way to reliably get it.
But it's not our only out vs S&T. We have O-Rings, Humility, and Sphere Of Safety all as potential answers. Running a Karakas increases the reliability with which we can expect to find one of these.
No, a fake picture of (an OP version of) said land was posted as a Theros spoiler, and identified as fake. This doesn't rule anything out except the authenticity of that one particular (fake) photo-shop.
A number of possible spoilers have been posted for BOG in the thread I linked, including the land. One of the MODs claims to have info confirming at least one of the other cards on the list, which lends some credibility to the rest.
No, a fake picture of (an OP version of) said land was posted as a Theros spoiler, and identified as fake. This doesn't rule anything out except the authenticity of that one particular (fake) photo-shop.
A number of possible spoilers have been posted for BOG in the thread I linked, including the land. One of the MODs claims to have info confirming at least one of the other cards on the list, which lends some credibility to the rest.
The current version of the first post contains a TK-421 edit with the following:
Mod Edit: A source of TK-421's has stated that:
There is a legendary Kraken, but it doesn't make more Krakens.
There isn't a legendary Minotaur.
Ferocious Charge isn't in.
Mogis is the God of Slaughter
There is a black boardwipe, and it's "strictly better than Infest". The land isn't in.
Regardless, if the land is good, replenish should be better. With rip and ground seal being cards that we play the land nonbos with both of them. Replenish at least has a favour able interaction with ground seal.
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------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
I am a long term admirer of enchantress and just got a chunk of the cards. I was wondering what a good foundation list would be for a prison version without emrakul ( dead draw too often).
You will need to make some judgement calls on your meta, and also on playstyle. I, for example, have not liked how GSZ played out for me, but others have found it to be good for them. Similarly, I've dropped all Rest in Peace from my build since they didn't do enough for me in the SB compared to the other sideboard options that targeted bigger problems in the format for me.
With that in mind, naya prison enchantress (with replenish) can be broken down as follows:
The interesting thing here is that your hate/bullets package is pretty much 100% up to your own crafting. You can use my list that has been good to me, sideboard and all, but as time goes on, I would expect you to change it up. We're packing a pre-board component of nearly an entire sideboard alone. This means that while most other decks in existence gets 15 cards to allocate to targeting specific decks and strategies, we're open to at least 27, and we'll be packing sideboard-level hate before they even have the opportunity to try to bring in a counter to it. My list fits very well with how I play the deck and how I approach most match-ups.
I'd recommend taking my list or someone else's, and then try out the hate that you think your meta or anticipated meta will require. The one thing that you should keep an eye on throughout the entire process however is the enchantment count. If at any point you find yourself dropping below 30 enchantments in the mainboard, I think you're weakening the deck's gameplan too much. We really rely on drawing enchantments consistently, and if you don't have at least a 50% chance of drawing an enchantment off of every draw, you'll find yourself dying to dead draws.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
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I notice you are not playing moat, is that a decision or is it because the card is tough to acquire?
I will start with you list and test from there.
I know my meta has rug delver, death and taxes, TES, maverick and show and tell. They are the big ones at the moment.
Although this thread has been invaluable for how to play the deck is there any advice on how your particular build should be played?
I used to run moat and ended up cutting it for Sphere of Safety which has been better in most cases for me. I could definitely see packing moat for some match-ups even still though. It's not in my list but it's a totally valid bullet to run.
My full list should do okay in your meta.
TES is pretty good for us since we're naturally resilient to their goblins plan, and tendrils is normally only a back-up for them. Mainboard leyline and solitary confinement help against that too. This entire match is about beating them in the short game, because we own the long. I'd SB out the sigil in addition to the dead cards when boarding for this matchup. You'll only need the best kill card here.
Maverick and delver should be very good match-ups. Playing through countermagic takes some practice, but you should be able to learn it just fine. Just remember that replenish is your trump card, and every card that they counter is a card that they didn't want on board for a reason. So a replenish for two or three things is totally fine. Play around daze when you need something to resolve. Play into it when you're okay with losing the card.
Remember that suppression field hits lands, so it can blow fetch-heavy manabases out of the water sometimes, in addition to just all around making decks like Death and Taxes miserable. If you have the chance to drop it on turn one, it's normally not a bad idea.
Show and tell is gonna be your tough match-up. Pretty much board in your oblivion rings and pray.
The moxen are mostly there for landing a turn 1 enchantress, but you'll often need to make the call at times whether you wild growth the land before the enchantress or whether you wait for a turn to get the draw trigger. It really depends on the match-up and what you know about your opponent's build.
I would be very conservative with your duals against unknown opponents. They're there for consistency, but you don't need to walk into wasteland with this deck. Basics are your best friend.
Certain hands will have sufficient hate and/or prison pieces to be keepable without enchantress. These are very ballsy hands, and I should note that while they can be good, it's a really tough call to make and requires knowing the lynchpins in your opponent's strategy.
That was all pretty general, but it's hard for me to describe a lot of this deck without just birding new players' test games and helping them out along the way.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Not necessarily. When I saw him play, he was 5-0 and playing D&T in the 6th. He wasn't playing slow, but I feel that his decklist was hamstringing him somewhat. However the guy playing D&T was playing significantly slower than I'd say he should have. He'd play a turn with a 2 card hand, untap for the next, goto his draw step, take the card from the top of the deck, put it on the table, think about it with the two cards in hand (neither of which he could cast because he had both thalia and thorn of amethyst down), then look at the new card, think again, then pass the turn without doing anything. It was a 22 minute game and I'd say that it could have been less than 15 without his thinking time.
They did a deck tech with him [EDIT: the link was edited in above while I was typing my post] (which was rather factually inaccurate as they basically made out that RIPHelm was new for enchantress and implied that he'd come up with it, though I will say that it was more Reuben Bresler doing the inaccurate commentary) where he claimed that it was faster than normal enchantress, but TBH, I feel that a lot of his choices for the deck were sub-par (below) and they meant that he wasn't getting the best out of it. And apparently 4 GSZ is the way forward because we need 12 enchantresses.
Yeah, they post the lists of anyone who goes on camera these days.
Anyway, 4 GSZ is indeed awkward. I don't mind using 2 anymore (I used to be VERY against them), but I want to keep the number of non-enchantments low. 4 GSZ is bad and TBH, the gitaxian probes seem HORRIBLE. I like probe in some decks, but the decks I like in are decks that have a real combo turn like storm or high tide, where you go all in and if you don't win then you probably won't win. But enchantress is all about redundancy and being able to dig to answers. Its just unnecessary. If you really want a cantrip that reveals their hand, play telepathy, it lasts and can get multiple draws off enchantresses.
No, I'm not actually advocating telepathy. Just pointing out that a card I'd never consider in anything other than my Damia EDH is actually better than probe.
Also, I really don't like the abundant growths. If they were another wild growth effect, I'd be completely in, but the one game I saw him play, he basically stumbled because his T1 play was abundant growth, not getting an enchantress down until T3 and not getting the second (despite having 3) until turn 5. By the time he stabilized, he was on 2 life and was facing down Thalia, Serra Avenger and I believe a flickerwisp, plus a rishdan port (which became double port quite soon after).
Also, there's one huge omission which leads to a second omission. The fist is no sterling grove which leads to a complete inability to tutor. So he's playing RIPHelm and he's cut the card that lets him both tutor for RIP and which protects his board state. Through the closing phases of his match, the commentary was all about how his opponent drawing a flickerwisp would mean that he'd lose solitary's protection and lose. Every draw I was looking for grove and thought he was just getting unlucky.
I'm not gonna get into Emrakul. My feelings on this are known. I don't like it but I'm not gonna waste time rehashing why.
Overall, with that list I think I'd make the following changes:
-2 Abundant Growth
-1 Solitary (3 feels like too many)
-2 Probe
-2 GSZ
+4 Sterling Grove (A staple to the point that the only things I'd cut after this would be the enchantresses)
+1 RIP (if you're going on that plan, go on that plan, esp with no tutors in the original list)
+1 Energy Field (combines nicely with RIP and the 1 symbol blue splash isn't exactly taxing)
+1 Enlightened Tutor
I'd also switch Emrakul for Sigil, but again, I'm avoiding the Emrakul debate.
I'm Jeff Paules. I didn't prompt Ruben to say that I invented the deck we all know no one really invents decks, especially enchantress which has been around for years.
I just couldn't keep it rolling in the later rounds post camera match.
0-2 burn - Yeah that was awkward
1-1 - Miracles. Serenity left me with just 2 forests in play and could not topdeck one. ...just happens sometimes. Time in round
Lost to Death and taxes. I consider this an even MU, but I was having a tough time today with it. Thus the 5-2-2 disappointing finish.
As for the card choices everyone has their own angle to why they choose the cards they do.
I've been playing quite a bit online as of late and the list is just what I felt most comfortable with sleeving-up at the time. The Probes have actually been quite good for me, but I understand why you may not be a fan. I will say this though. Playing with Probe will make you a better player.
I've played versions of this list with Sterling Grove and without. I can possibly see playing 3-4 grove in this list, I just din't feel that was right for this tournament, and largely it was the correct call. I ran into very little spot removal it was just the flickerwisps.
I did normally run 3 Green Sun's Zenith but I wanted to have a decent way to recover from the collateral hate for TNN since this deck naturally sandbags GSZs it seems like it was correct to cut the Sphere of Saftey for the 4th GSZ to help make sure the engine gets and stays online.
I'm willing to consider a list without abundant growth, but I can not tell you how many games that extra draw / or the color fixing has saved me. I'm not sure what your getting at about not resolving an enchantress effect till turn 3. I would prefer to play one t2, I do run the 4 growth, 4 sprawl. It just was one of those games where I didn't start with it. ...and to me that is fine hand.
I'll try your changes above when I'm not so burnt out on Magic just to learn, and see what the play differences are. I will try and hit a daily with it this week.
Oh, and Emrakul, I know it controversial and can be debated back and forth to know real true conclusion, but Emrakul being uncounterable decided at least 2 matches today. HAving an uncounterable win is more important when you are running more RIPs. Just my 2 cents.
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Thank you for the kind words SovietOlga many have helped along the way.
I may have just hit a major breakthrough with this build! A real eureka moment! Actually, it is Eureka.
You know those hands where you have a fistful of cards and you run out of mana so you discard a ton. Not any more. Just drop them all into play.
I also won just by dropping in T3 via Eureka (saw i was clear with Probe) RIP / Helm and a land.
At first I thought this could be a decent sideboard strategy to just be faster than other combo decks now I'm seeing it may have main board hopes, and we can sale back or up with Eureka pending on the match, and how good the strategy is against them.
Example: The player who's being controlled still chooses whether he or she leaves to visit the restroom, trades a card to someone else, agrees to an intentional draw, or calls a judge about an error or infraction.
How about this?
Read the rulings n th crd link:
The process continues until all players pass.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
I find it it interesting that so many of you are railing against the crux that this deck has always had: faster combo. If your answer is to combo out turn 4, then I'm here to tell that that is too slow. Our engine/shell isn't redundant enough to be consistent in killing sooner than that. In order to make it so, you end up sacrificing many of the things which allow us to crush Tempo Decks. So why not just build TES or the like? They still beat fair decks, and combo off within the few couple of turns on a very consistent basis.
I will also continue to repeat the fact that if you are worried about decking yourself, you need more practice with this deck. I have never once done so and have been playing this deck for a number of years.
I am also curious as to how many of you that are advocating the use of Emrakul are simply theorycrafting, or if you have, in fact, played with it for a great deal of time. I once ran it in my deck, but too often it was a dead card. In your opener, it might as well be a mulligan. Without sanctum, a dead draw. And by the time it was relevant, any win con would do. You all seem to be forgetting that by the time you are resolving a win con, the blue decks have already exhausted their counterspells. That is the main point with our redundancy. And if a win con was countered, replenish was there to finish the job. Replenish has NEVER served it's primary function as a card to counteract enchantment destructive, but as the last nail in the coffin against blue decks.
Allow me to also add that energy field will do less than nothing against combo decks not named reanimator or dredge. Tendrils doesn't care, that's for sure. And by lowering the count of sterling groves, they'll just bounce whatever tenuous lock piece you have out anyway. Or elves will kill it with Terrastadon.
You used the word ineveitability to describe emrakul, and sigil is that as well. With a lock, which is very consistent in the original shell, you only need an angel or 2 to win the game. I would also like to point to your discussion on getting your sigil countered with a RiP out. Might I ask why you'd play a RiP against a blue deck not named reanimator? If it's a silver bullet, you ignore it because replenish is better. If it's not, you aren't running replenish anyway. "Woe is the player who..." is not going to be an issue for someone that has designed their deck properly, or is careful about their board state. And in the case of reanimator you better hope for the nuts draw, even with RiP/Helm.
In regards to elves, I guarantee this isn't as constistent as them. They almost always go off turn 3 and sometimes even turn 2.
To be honest, I'm not entirely sure most of you understand the function of enchantress and the meta in which it functions well in. It is primarily a prison deck and a combo deck secondly. I say that because or combo is not one that gets online and kills instantly. Our engine is slow, and takes several turns to build up to that, but is consistent in doing so. We thrive primarily in a blue and fair deck dominated field. Combo generally will never comprise a majority of any given large tournament you may attend. RiP/Helm is all well and good, but please don't delude yourselves in to thinking it's as consistent or fast as true combo decks. You'll be in for a rude surprise. Each deck has an Achilles heel, which is exactly why Legacy is enjoyable. It is impossible to completely irradicate a weakness. We can do our best to mitigate them, though.
I feel as if too many of you are pulling this deck into too many directions and all that is doing is diluting this deck's function. Does that mean it's wrong to experiment? Of course not. But experiment with the understanding that there is a point in which you must recognize that a deck isn't capable enough of the functions you desire. At which juncture it may be wiser to play a different deck.
Keep in mind this deck has been around for a great deal of time, and during its hayday, the only deck capable of comboing consistently before turn 3 was Spanish Inquisition. A deck so difficult to pilot that it was rarely seen in tournaments. The next most powerful combo deck was solidarity, and it rarely went off before turn 5. Cards like ad nauseum, emrakul, griselbrand, heritage druid, didn't exist. Even entomb was banned.
Why do I mention all those things? Simply because I do not believe this deck, in its original GWr version is anywhere near dead as most of you might think. the meta is not 100% combo, and I still believe that to be the hardest thing to overcome. Everything else is at least manageable if you are willing to learn the matchups, your own deck, and lines of play. And if combo comes to dominate, merfolk and tempo decks will come out of the woodworks, and we do very well against both.
There is an ebb and flow in metas, don't forget that. There are certain times in which decks aren't playable, but I do not believe that is the case for us. Not yet.
P.S. Freggle, Eureka is actually a very interesting card to consider. It certainly has my attention. Don't take any of this an affront to the work you have done on the RiP/Helm version. I simply like to point out certain facts that people tend to forget when discussing the two decks.
Avatar and Banner made by R&Doom of the Ye Olde Sig and Avatar Shoppe
On the topic of Moat:
I agree with you that GWr is not dead nor do I think I ever supported saying it was. When people quote things like saying x deck isn’t putting up numbers I always think to myself how many people are jamming it.
Since the internet decks go in fads and Enchantress hasn’t been a fad in a long time so in a big tournament lets say there are 28 RUG players 10 Reanimator and 2 Enchantress players. 1 out of the 2 enchantress players hits top 16 and gets knocked out by the 2 reanimator deck they hit.
The top 8 is filled with 6 rug and 2 reanimators. Who going to be jamming Enchantress the next week?
It’s a numbers game, and with more people jamming popular decks the more you should see them in the top 8. It’s a self-fulfilling cycle.
Beyond that you touched on some a few main topics:
Enchantress as Prison, Enchantress vs. Combo, Emrakul & Replenish vs. RIP
Enchantress as Prison
Yes Enchantress is a prison deck. The only version that I know of that isn't really technically prison and is more combo is the GU Words of Wind build.
...but how different is GW Helm from GWr Solitare? Looking at your 2012 SCG list compared to my last tested list lets look at the variances.
-1 City of Solitude
-1 Elephant Grass
-1 Moat
-1 Oblivion Ring
-2 Replenish
-1 Runed Halo
-1 Sigil
-2 Sterling Grove
- 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
-1 Words of War
-2 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Mirri’s Guile
+1 Sphere of Safety
+3 RIP
+3 Probe
+3 Abundant Growth
+2 Helm
+3 Green Sun’s
…of the Prison cards I’m GW Helm is missing technically (2) Moat and (1) Egrass. The Moat is a swap to Sphere, and the E grass could be a probe. A quasi non-slot. Most of the other cards are in the deck to help you draw into either the prison lock or the helm combo even under extreme duress.
At both decks hearts they are prison decks.
Enchantress vs. combo
You said it best in that every deck has a nemesis, but I do believe that it can be mitigated. This is where the going theory of GWr and GW helm diverge. GWr is a more toolbox and tutor for what you need. Whereas GW Helm is intended to be more of a trust in the draw and draw into what you need.
Look at some of the best Chameleon decks. Like Stoneforge They can splash 1 or 2 cards and change a match because of all the library manipulation and draw they have. GW Helm tried to mimic that style of play. Always going positive CA digging and searching… When you replace a Elephant Grass with a Mirri’s Guile what is the percentages that the guile will find the statistical 3 guile. It is pretty close to pretty good. …but guile also help you dig out of a rough start, or keeps the draw chain going with clever uses of fetches. …but I digress. In the toolbox approach you are limited to Enchantment hate to tutor for (sometimes artifacts if Enlightened Tutor is used.) Whereas in the GW search and dig it is only preferable to be an enchantment.
In my opinion the latest builds of the GW Helm are better vs combo because of a few reasons. You can find your hate faster on average. We still have Leyline / grove. …and we can use our (3) Green Suns’s as hate. (Gaddock)
The best way to date for GW helm to fight combo is Gaddock and 3-4 Mindbreak Trap. People will tell you that Mindbreak Trap sucks, but it does not in Enchantress. Storm, Tide… can not board in all of their hate, and since we are permanent based, and Leyline is expected they typically board out all of the discard / silences / Counters for bounce. When they bounce our first piece of hate to clear the go off. Trap usually gets them if you’re lucky enough to have found it by then.
Emrakul
I too at one point grew to hate, yes hate, Emrakul in Enchantress. So much so I refused to put it into GW helm for a long time. Then I saw this. A GW helm list that 4-0 a daily (again I only have gone 3-1) piloted by dichotoma. As I am told by others on MTGO he is the Japanese Enchantress master his blog can be found here(use google translate.) His list featured Emrakul . I have tested GW Helm extensively I play on MTGO a ton till I burn out and have to walk away for a bit to regain clarity. I have likely over 100 matches with the deck, and I have to say I have drawn out something like 5 times. What happened is at some point blue players stopped trying to counter my enchantress effects and just went to counter the helm and sigil. Or some combo of Meddling mage and counters… So when I saw the list that 4-0ed I decided to try it out to see what Iwas missing. First match I played was against painted stone. It was the turn 2 or 3 kill and I scooped, but when I was in sideboarding I laughed because I forgot I had Emrakul. Game 2 I beat him, and game 3 he got the “kill” but Emrakul just shuffled the deck back together. The guy said it was lame and I tried to tell him that it was in there all along, but who would believe that even if it were the truth.
Then I played more, by this time I had ticked up to (4) Sanctum’s. …and it is like SovietOlga says you just poop out Emrakuls now with the new Legend rule. I played 3-4 matches today I surprisingly killed with Helm 1 game I think, and I’m not even trying to cast him.
Then go back to the blue games where the miracles player would switch modes and go for the draw out. Inspired by D’s list I have been testing (4) Carpet of Flowers. This match is now much closer to a walk in the park than it has been, as that card gets you around the taxing counters very quick and puts the beatings on once an Enchantress resolves. Then it also makes it stupid easy to drop Emrakul.
The decking also goes for Brain Freeze with gives us typically more times to draw into Mindbreak Trap against High Tide as they will Spiral More looking for the Blue Sun’s.
Then there is also Hypergenesis, and Show and Tell
Having played him for over a month, racking up maybe something like 30+ matches. I will say it is better than Sigil in this build.
Replenish vs. RIP
This is likely a meta call period. I will say however it has come in handy multiple times to just oops I win with Helm / RIP, but I have done this with Sigil as well.
I'm also always looking for friendly players in League of Legends IGN Dread Return, doesn't have to be competitive, just be nice and friendly.
[S3 - Diamond, S4 - Diamond, S5 - Diamond, Current Season - Diamond] Primary role Support, Secondary MID Lane, Alternate Jungle.
Forbidden Orchard doesn't seem like it has much of a downside due to Sphere of Safety / Moat and Elephant Grass to keep early game pressure off our backs, but Wasteland Susceptibility is a considerable detriment, and I like the fact that this deck doesn't really care much about the card (also, we can play Back to Basics, which also punishes greedy manabases).
On another note:
One of the things that does make this deck poorly positioned is that the rise of True-Name Nemesis has greatly increased the prevalence of sacrifice and -X/-X effects as ways of getting around the 3/1 mini-Progenitus, and in case it's not widely disseminated, Golgari Charm from the BGx decks is not a card I really like to see, since they can nuke both Enchantresses and Presence at their leisure. Karmic Justice helps, but at the same time, Diabolic Edict and Innocent Blood are nasty pieces of splash hate against us.
Has anyone considered a way around or through these hate cards? At the risk of going too deep, a card such as Gaea's Anthem would be one way to get around Golgari Charm...
Went to a new shop from a friend's recommendation, DQ'ed for willful violation of CR 100.6b.
Have played duals? I have PucaPoints for them!
(Credit to DarkNightCavalier)
$tandard: Too poor.
Modern:
- GW Birthing Pod(?)
Legacy:
- UWR Delver
Even without running Emrakul (which I would highly advise avoiding), has won me countless games, in which I would have no other way of winning. Emrakul is an uncounterable monster that msot decks cannot deal with otherwise.
Just yesterday Emrakul saved the day when they popped down a platinum angel. At this point, they were in a hard lock since I had Sphere of Safety down along side 10+ enchantments. I was getting close to decking myself, when I finally drew him. I decided to mill out his entire deck using Helm/RIP combo to prevent him from drawing anything else. However it wasn't enough until I shat out the "Fattie" with a sanctum and took another turn and attacked. He managed to keep his angel alive, and was able to chump block. But then, my trusty karakas just bounced it back to my hand for another lashing of timewalks, inhalator and 15 damage.
Sigil, although is a decent win condition is not always a game winner. A smart player will hold their counters back and wait for your win condition to be played then countered. Where as Emrakul is a guaranteed win if the board is stale. Obviously, Emrakul isn't the first effort to close a game, but it does the job with the Helm cannot.
EDIT:
Drifting Skies - I also noticed the popularity of Gogari Charm as of late as well. It really does threaten the entire deck;furthermore, it often accompanied by 3-4 Abrupt Decays which make an enchantress player cry. The Solution? I'm not entirely sure, perhaps Karmic Guide or an increased number of Sterling Groves? What do you guys think? Personally, I feel that Enchantress almost always scoops to a BGx deck, as they also tend to play some Hymn to Torarch
How do you guys/girls feel about Karakas? Is it better to just replace it with another basic? I have a crap ton of guru lands waiting to belong in its sleeve so the pimping value will remain :P.
Oh I don't use rest in peace as a grave hate, I just prefer the flexibility of Wheel of Sun and Moon as far as casting cost as well as versatility of protecting myself from other decks' mill strategies.
I run a non-RIP-build, with replenish, on a GW deck btw if it makes ny difference as far as running or not running a single Karakas.
I'm also always looking for friendly players in League of Legends IGN Dread Return, doesn't have to be competitive, just be nice and friendly.
[S3 - Diamond, S4 - Diamond, S5 - Diamond, Current Season - Diamond] Primary role Support, Secondary MID Lane, Alternate Jungle.
I'm curious as to what your wins are in a GW build without RIP. ...and to answer your question on Karakas I don't think there is a definitive answer outside of at least 1 in an unkown meta.
Asking a question like this without posting your list will likely delay your answer. If it was your only non-basic then 2-3 would be fine. ...but then again why wouldn't you be running Serra's Sanctum? ...the question is how many?
2 Arid Mesa
4 Forest
1 Karakas
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
2 Plains
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Taiga
2 Verdant Catacombs
Dudes
4 Argothian Enchantress
Stuff
1 Blind Obedience
2 Chrome Mox
3 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Ground Seal
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Mirri's Guile
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Replenish
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Sphere of Safety
4 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
1 Words of War
1 Blood Moon
1 City of Solitude
1 Choke
1 Elephant Grass
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Humility
1 Karmic Justice
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Moat
1 Nevermore
1 Replenish
1 Rest in Peace
1 Runed Halo
1 Stony Silence
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
Yes yes...I know that's more than a 15 card sideboard. That's where I feel like I'm a little unfocused. I'd like the Mindbreaks to give me a chance against fast combo. I like the RiP/Helm just as an extra win-con that works a surprising amount of the time that I board it in. Emrakul is there for the added something against Show and Tell. I dunno. Very open to suggestions all around.
I only recently added the Chrome Mox in. I like the speed up I've seen in testing so far, though I'm not committed to it until I've gotten more games in.
Any thoughts?
Running four seems bad to me. You don't really want to see more than one, and there are tutors to find them. I run two in the side. I like running Ground Seal main - it's never a dead card as it cantrips, and it doesn't hose Replenish
As is mentioned in the post I quote bellow, we are seeing more splash hate. Replenish also brings back Sterling Grove (which can lock the game up for us) or countered combo pieces, silver bullets, and win-cons.
I tend to think (in theory) that Naya Enchantress had ought to be better positioned than the results indicate. I realise the lack of players dampens the results, but surely if the deck is viable somebody would have made a major top eight in the last how many years? Has the deck even had top sixteens in the last year?
Of course in addition to not being well represented, this is a very difficult deck to always play well (IMO). Players might try the deck once and quickly become discouraged. Also many players simply aren't interested in prison decks - most people prefer creature decks or fast combo decks.
Add to that that Pox has been on the rise, and that's possibly lour worst match ever (I think I'd rather face Belcher). If Pox become tier one, Enchantress players might be very sad.
I love the deck - I will continue to play it, tweak it, discuss it, etc. I seem to hold my own with it in my local scene (which is very well developed and diverse) Still, I'm not sure it's such a good choice right now. We could really use some love from this supposed enchantment block. I'd like to see this as a solid tier 1.5 - enough to be a serious threat, but not enough to have to play a bunch of mirrors.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Oh sorry for the late response, too much online game and not enough magic lol. The list I am using is this...
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Savannah
10 Forest
1 Plain
2 Serra's Sanctum
3 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Sterling Grove
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress Presence
1 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Replenish
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Elephant Grass
4 Solitary Confinement
2 Sphere of Safety
2 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Emrakul, the Eons Torn
and my side board cards are:
1 Stony Silence
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Karmic Justice
1 Humility
4 Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 City of Solitude
1 Helix Pinnacle
I am not a fan of Rest in Peace, plus there are a few situations where I prefer the versatility of wheel as it can protect me from the mill strategies of other decks, easier to cast, and doesn't hurt my replenish.
I didn't think posting the deck list was was necessary, but here it is if it would help. All I am wondering was if karakas is still in favor off for simply being there just for "in case" scenarios, although we have no way to reliably get it. Thanks for the response.
I'm also always looking for friendly players in League of Legends IGN Dread Return, doesn't have to be competitive, just be nice and friendly.
[S3 - Diamond, S4 - Diamond, S5 - Diamond, Current Season - Diamond] Primary role Support, Secondary MID Lane, Alternate Jungle.
But it's not our only out vs S&T. We have O-Rings, Humility, and Sphere Of Safety all as potential answers. Running a Karakas increases the reliability with which we can expect to find one of these.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
This could be really good for us!
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
A number of possible spoilers have been posted for BOG in the thread I linked, including the land. One of the MODs claims to have info confirming at least one of the other cards on the list, which lends some credibility to the rest.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
The current version of the first post contains a TK-421 edit with the following:
They should put a note i the title that the first page has bee edited.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
I've been quite happy with the following:
4 Argothian Enchantress
Enchantments: 32
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Sterling Grove
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Elephant Grass
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Aura of Silence
1 Suppression Field
1 Ground Seal
1 Choke
1 Words of War
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Replenish
Artifact: 3
2 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond
Lands: 19
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
6 Forest
4 Plains
1 Elephant Grass
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Replenish
1 Suppression Field
1 Stony Silence
1 Karmic Justice
1 Humility
1 City of Solitude
1 Planar Collapse
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Phyrexian Unlife
3 Oblivion Ring
You will need to make some judgement calls on your meta, and also on playstyle. I, for example, have not liked how GSZ played out for me, but others have found it to be good for them. Similarly, I've dropped all Rest in Peace from my build since they didn't do enough for me in the SB compared to the other sideboard options that targeted bigger problems in the format for me.
With that in mind, naya prison enchantress (with replenish) can be broken down as follows:
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
Core Enchantments: 14
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Sterling Grove
2 Solitary Confinement
Win Package: 2-3
1 Words of War
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Replenish
Hate and Silver Bullets: 12
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Elephant Grass
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Aura of Silence
1 Suppression Field
1 Ground Seal
1 Choke
2 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond (Non-standard!)
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
6 Forest
4 Plains
The interesting thing here is that your hate/bullets package is pretty much 100% up to your own crafting. You can use my list that has been good to me, sideboard and all, but as time goes on, I would expect you to change it up. We're packing a pre-board component of nearly an entire sideboard alone. This means that while most other decks in existence gets 15 cards to allocate to targeting specific decks and strategies, we're open to at least 27, and we'll be packing sideboard-level hate before they even have the opportunity to try to bring in a counter to it. My list fits very well with how I play the deck and how I approach most match-ups.
I'd recommend taking my list or someone else's, and then try out the hate that you think your meta or anticipated meta will require. The one thing that you should keep an eye on throughout the entire process however is the enchantment count. If at any point you find yourself dropping below 30 enchantments in the mainboard, I think you're weakening the deck's gameplan too much. We really rely on drawing enchantments consistently, and if you don't have at least a 50% chance of drawing an enchantment off of every draw, you'll find yourself dying to dead draws.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
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Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
I used to run moat and ended up cutting it for Sphere of Safety which has been better in most cases for me. I could definitely see packing moat for some match-ups even still though. It's not in my list but it's a totally valid bullet to run.
My full list should do okay in your meta.
TES is pretty good for us since we're naturally resilient to their goblins plan, and tendrils is normally only a back-up for them. Mainboard leyline and solitary confinement help against that too. This entire match is about beating them in the short game, because we own the long. I'd SB out the sigil in addition to the dead cards when boarding for this matchup. You'll only need the best kill card here.
Maverick and delver should be very good match-ups. Playing through countermagic takes some practice, but you should be able to learn it just fine. Just remember that replenish is your trump card, and every card that they counter is a card that they didn't want on board for a reason. So a replenish for two or three things is totally fine. Play around daze when you need something to resolve. Play into it when you're okay with losing the card.
Remember that suppression field hits lands, so it can blow fetch-heavy manabases out of the water sometimes, in addition to just all around making decks like Death and Taxes miserable. If you have the chance to drop it on turn one, it's normally not a bad idea.
Show and tell is gonna be your tough match-up. Pretty much board in your oblivion rings and pray.
The moxen are mostly there for landing a turn 1 enchantress, but you'll often need to make the call at times whether you wild growth the land before the enchantress or whether you wait for a turn to get the draw trigger. It really depends on the match-up and what you know about your opponent's build.
I would be very conservative with your duals against unknown opponents. They're there for consistency, but you don't need to walk into wasteland with this deck. Basics are your best friend.
Certain hands will have sufficient hate and/or prison pieces to be keepable without enchantress. These are very ballsy hands, and I should note that while they can be good, it's a really tough call to make and requires knowing the lynchpins in your opponent's strategy.
That was all pretty general, but it's hard for me to describe a lot of this deck without just birding new players' test games and helping them out along the way.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething Spicy5-2-2.
He really must not have been managing his clock very closely (fairly important with this deck).
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Lands (20)
10 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
4 Serra's Sanctum
Spells (35)
2 Helm of Obedience
2 Abundant Growth
3 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Rest in Peace
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Carpet of Flowers
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Stony Silence
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 GSZ is awkward.
EDIT:
And there was a deck tech.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
I'm Jeff Paules. I didn't prompt Ruben to say that I invented the deck we all know no one really invents decks, especially enchantress which has been around for years.
I just couldn't keep it rolling in the later rounds post camera match.
0-2 burn - Yeah that was awkward
1-1 - Miracles. Serenity left me with just 2 forests in play and could not topdeck one. ...just happens sometimes. Time in round
Lost to Death and taxes. I consider this an even MU, but I was having a tough time today with it. Thus the 5-2-2 disappointing finish.
As for the card choices everyone has their own angle to why they choose the cards they do.
I've been playing quite a bit online as of late and the list is just what I felt most comfortable with sleeving-up at the time. The Probes have actually been quite good for me, but I understand why you may not be a fan. I will say this though. Playing with Probe will make you a better player.
I've played versions of this list with Sterling Grove and without. I can possibly see playing 3-4 grove in this list, I just din't feel that was right for this tournament, and largely it was the correct call. I ran into very little spot removal it was just the flickerwisps.
I did normally run 3 Green Sun's Zenith but I wanted to have a decent way to recover from the collateral hate for TNN since this deck naturally sandbags GSZs it seems like it was correct to cut the Sphere of Saftey for the 4th GSZ to help make sure the engine gets and stays online.
I'm willing to consider a list without abundant growth, but I can not tell you how many games that extra draw / or the color fixing has saved me. I'm not sure what your getting at about not resolving an enchantress effect till turn 3. I would prefer to play one t2, I do run the 4 growth, 4 sprawl. It just was one of those games where I didn't start with it. ...and to me that is fine hand.
I'll try your changes above when I'm not so burnt out on Magic just to learn, and see what the play differences are. I will try and hit a daily with it this week.
Oh, and Emrakul, I know it controversial and can be debated back and forth to know real true conclusion, but Emrakul being uncounterable decided at least 2 matches today. HAving an uncounterable win is more important when you are running more RIPs. Just my 2 cents.