Replenish builds tend to be Naya with Words of War as the preferred win-condition. They eschew the RIP/Helm combo for a more controlling and resilient gameplan. This is my preferred approach.
RIP builds tend towards Bant with blue bringing energy field and detention sphere. They tend to be more vulnerable to wasteland, less consistent in topdeck mode, and more vulnerable to countermagic and destroy effects, but they gain the ability to go for much more aggressive combo kills when the need arises instead of naya which needs to lock down the board before considering winning.
I've tested the RIP builds, but I've never liked the vulnerabilities they create in the deck. I run a somewhat non-standard Naya Replenish list.
Notable in my list is a the highly irregular choice of Mox Diamond in the main, and a heavier reliance on the graveyard due to being willing to walk key pieces into removal due to the replenishes. Leylines in the main are a nod to my local meta which is very heavily populated with hand destruction and a sprinkling of combo.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
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Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
I have been playing this list or very close to it for quite some time now. There are a number of flex slots available in the main as well as the side, depending on your meta. Other common mainboard/sideboard cards I switch back and forth between playing are Ground Seal, Blood Moon, Raking Canopy, Lignify, and Aura of Silence. These choices are largely meta dependent. I played Raking Canopy largely when Esper Stoneblade first hit the scene, as it killed all their win-cons except when they were holding a Sword of Feast and Famine. It was also my answer to UW Miracles, which was also another popular deck choice around that time. A few years ago I tried out a mainboard Choke, and have never gone back. I absolutely love it, and don't see myself replacing it soon. It is simply too good against many popular decks like Stoneblade, Thresh, Team America, BUG, and others. Blood Moon does many of the same things against these opponents, but I greatly enjoy the fact that it is one sided, as the symmetry from Blood Moon has hurt me a few times in the past. What with the rise of BUG, I may go back to running it in the 75 again, though.
The choice of Unlife may seem odd to people new to the deck, or even veterans, but I do have a method for my madness. We used to play it in the golden days when Zoo ran rampant over the format after Shards block, before Batterskull came around. It worked to essentially gain us 10 life to play with in order to lock them out. I am currently testing it against all the Deathrite decks. I got rather tired of stabilizing at 4-6 life just to die to a few Shamans because we can't afford to be aggressive with our Groves in order to find our Words of War. Unlife shuts it down cold, and also works to make it more difficult for decks like TES to combo us out, seeing as they need an additional 5 storm (or a few more goblins). In order to answer this, many people have started running Ground Seals in the main again, but I was never a huge fan of that, and enjoy the wider array of usage that Unlife gives us. Testing will tell if I'm wrong, and Ground Seal is the better choice, but as it stands I'm giving this old gem another go.
As ExpiredRascals said, I do not care for the vulnerabilities that the Helm versions have. Especially concerning that Energy Field does not give us shroud, which is a HUGE problem. From being vulnerable to cards like Liliana of the Veil, Jace, the Mindsculptor, discard is a big one, Tendrils of Agony, etc. I also feel that that version doesn't shore up any weaknesses this archetype has against its worst matchup (combo), doesn't make much of a change in our aggro matchup, doesn't run Grove for shroud (which is another point of weakness with Abrupt Decay being in existence), and the shortcomings of Field. So I have never really been a fan, nor have I been tempted to try it out.
If you want to read a tourney report I made to give some insight on my thought processes and playstyle in tournaments, or simply want to familiarize yourself with the deck and how it plays before pulling the trigger and buying it, check this out http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8742438&highlight=10th#post8742438 post number #1809. Granted it was a year ago, but aside form meta game shifts and new cards, many of the ideas, sideboarding, decision paths, etc remain the same.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
I'm a little surprised at the large non-basic count in your list. How often do you find yourself vulnerable to wasteland?
Not often at all, to be honest. Every time I fetch against either a blind opponent or someone I know that plays wasteland, I go for a basic. Even against aggressive wasteland decks like Thresh and UR Delver I do pretty well. I also sandbag Sanctums for as long as I can, and assume they will be wastelanded the turn after I play them, so I almost count them as pseudo rituals with a possible rebound. I'm almost considering going back to 21 lands, as I've been mulliganing a ton lately, but every time I do I get mana flooded. It has always been a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation for me lol.
Yeah, i just know that i ended up scrapping Karakas and Horizon Canopy because they just felt like they made my more vulnerable to wastes than anything else. I also didn't like upping the fetch count past the playset of Heaths because it felt like I was being forced to fetch duals more often.
Being nearly immune to wasteland is a big deal for me given the deck's gameplan, so a lot of my choices have been made to limit the potential for interaction with my manabase by other decks.
Also, I heartily recommend giving Chrome Moxen a try, they improve the early game speed of the deck, but they also increase your ability to chain plays off the topdeck. Mox Diamond is one that I tested on a lark awhile back, and while I think it's generally worse than Chrome Mox in the deck due to taking a spell slot rather than a land slot, I've been very impressed with it as a singleton. It gives you more fixing, more ways of landing t1 enchantress, etc.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Yeah, i just know that i ended up scrapping Karakas and Horizon Canopy because they just felt like they made my more vulnerable to wastes than anything else. I also didn't like upping the fetch count past the playset of Heaths because it felt like I was being forced to fetch duals more often.
Being nearly immune to wasteland is a big deal for me given the deck's gameplan, so a lot of my choices have been made to limit the potential for interaction with my manabase by other decks.
Also, I heartily recommend giving Chrome Moxen a try, they improve the early game speed of the deck, but they also increase your ability to chain plays off the topdeck. Mox Diamond is one that I tested on a lark awhile back, and while I think it's generally worse than Chrome Mox in the deck due to taking a spell slot rather than a land slot, I've been very impressed with it as a singleton. It gives you more fixing, more ways of landing t1 enchantress, etc.
I rarely feel forced to fetch up dual lands, and usually end the game with most of my basics out. Then again I run far fewer WW costing cards in the main than you do, so my early game usually only has to comprise of 1 maybe 2 white sources, mostly from a plains and a utopia sprawl.
I've always been very happy with my Canopy, as I hate bricking on early and/or critical turns from not having an enchantment. I agree though that I'm starting to just not care much about Karakas, we have no way to search it, our Reanimator matchup is so abysmal, and it is on the decline anyway what with Dr Shaman running around. It has been one of those things that has just stayed because it has always been there.
In the 3 years I've played this deck, I have never tried out the various forms of accelerants that other people use, such as Elvish Spirit Guide, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, Mox Diamond. I understand their merits, and I guess I should probably give them a go. I have always been resistant to change with this deck, as evidenced by the fact that it took me awhile to switch to GSZ when it was brand new. Ever since that, though, I have never looked back, so maybe this will be the same. My only concern is that we have to aggressively mulligan with this deck, so how has that been for you, as far as being useful more often than not? Because Chrome Mox is almost equivalent to another mulligan.
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Bad mulliganing is actually the reason that it took me so long to try Mox Diamond. The deck couldn't afford to cut a spell, so I was stuck looking at cutting a land and that scared me (When I finally did bight the bullet, it replaced a plains).
I do approach the deck a bit different than most though. I'm reasonably okay with keeping non-enchantress hands and playing like Parfait until I find a draw engine. This means that mulligans are less common and the card disadvantage is less likely to be an issue. The upside however is huge. T1 Argothian Enchantress is a total beating, and the non-land mana sources ease the D&T match-up quite a bit by relieving some of the pressure that Rishadan Port exerts on us. When you're in the position where you need to clutch chain draws to survive, the moxen also help you make drops off the top of your deck even as you run out of untapped lands. Lastly, Mox Diamond in particular has been handy since it represents a way of producing red without fetching taiga or wasting a utopia sprawl on fixing red.
Regarding GSZ, how has that been for you? I really hated it when i tried it (3 mana felt bad for a non-enchantment, and it was another way to whiff when under pressure and trying to keep solitary confinement up), but I might be willing to give it a second shot.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Planning on running a GW RiP-Helm deck in a local toruney this weekend. Any thoughts on the list? Has been a while since I've played MtG now, so I might be a bit rusty.
Planning on running a GW RiP-Helm deck in a local toruney this weekend. Any thoughts on the list? Has been a while since I've played MtG now, so I might be a bit rusty.
Emrakul is horrible, I'm not going to go into why seeing as it is discussed every few pages, so I'd peruse them if I were you.
Leyline of Sanctity should never be played as anything less than a 4 in the 75, Nevermore is usually too slow against the decks we need a card like that for, i.e. combo.
I highly suggest running a Sphere of Safety somewhere in the main.
I have always hated Oblivion Ring as a 2 of in the main. When I first started playing this deck by borrowing it from a friend, and he had 2 main, I despised it. I have an odd love/hate relationship with the card, and mainly run it as a silver bullet as there are many scenarios where drawing it doesn't do a damn thing for you and you wish it was something else.
I don't like playing non-green fetches, as they can force you to search up a dual when you would rather have a forest. I consider the upside of being able to get a basic forest far higher than being able to get a basic plains.
I normally despise Enlightened Tutor, as it is a Time Walk for our blue opponents most of the time, and only serves as card disadvantage, but because you need a way to tutor up Helm, I guess it is passable.
I'm genuinely curious as to why you'd play Helm/RiP combo in a shell like this. This seems strictly worse than both the traditional GWr version, as you are simply diluting what that deck does for a potentially quicker kill. I'd honestly just suggest playing GWr and cut Helm combo or GWu if you want to run Helm. Just my 2 cents, though.
Also, if you're running 3 rest in peace in your main, I don't think you can afford to run that replenish. It's just going to be a total dead draw far too often for you.
Your Wild Growth and Sterling Grove counts should both never drop from 4. I can't think of a single match-up where you'd even side either of them out, let alone choose to shave them in the main.
I agree that Nevermore isn't going to do what you need it to, and that you absolutely must fit 4 leylines somewhere in your 75. Emrakul is a dead draw that doesn't even draw you a card, and it only does something meaningful when you've already won.
Oblivion Ring is to taste. Like cthulhudude, I'm not a fan, and I only begrudgingly allot it a single slot, but I know others that run as many as 3 or 4 in their main. This one is up to you.
Enlightened Tutor is a necessary evil of the RIP/Helm approach. If you choose to shift into a Replenish build, you should cut the tutors.
I think you'll want either choke or blood moon in your main. Since you don't run red atm, I'd go choke.
I agree as well that Sphere of Safety almost certainly needs to make its way into your maindeck.
I'm not a fan of Runed Halo. I've just cut the last copy from my 75. I think it's too narrow, and you've got better defenses to everything that it would apply to.
GSZ is to taste — I'm not a fan, but most on here love it.
I'd cut Karakas. With no way of tutoring it, it just does nothing for us, except make more hands bad against wasteland decks.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Your Wild Growth and Sterling Grove counts should both never drop from 4. I can't think of a single match-up where you'd even side either of them out, let alone choose to shave them in the main.
I completely agree that in this day and age, Grove is a must have at 4. While I also agree on the Wild Growth topic, and run 4 myself, the fact is that when you run the numbers of 7 vs 8 growth effects through hypergeometric distribution (the statistics tool used to calculate draw percentages of certain cards) it is an almost negligible difference of finding at least 1 in the opening hand. From that rationale I have seen a few other respected Enchantress players in the community that only play 7 growths.
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I agree that GW RIPHelm is very inferior to Naya Enchantress. To bring it up to that level, you want to be playing Bant. It doesn't bring much, but what it does bring is pretty key. In fact, I only run 3-4 blue cards in the entire 75. A single In the Eye of Chaos in the board because its so good at fighting things like storm, and makes things like omnitell and force a bit more awkward for them (force costs either 5, a blue card and a life, or 8UU, Echoing Truth costs 3U, etc). Then 2-3 Energy Fields. In most Enchantress build's its not great, but in one which has 4 RIP, it becomes pretty potent. Doesn't even warp the mana base much. I source my blue of a single tropical island and my utopia sprawls. Plus, running solitary plus energy field gives you some nice defences.
GWb isn't worth considering. The only 2 black enchantments I'd run are The Abyss and Chains of Mephistopheles. And neither of them is worth the near $200 price tag.
TBH, I think it depends on what you want to do. If you want to go for a more combo kill style of deck, you want the Bant RIPHelm. If you want a slightly more controlling, silver bullet oriented build that can kill more gradually, you want traditional Words of War Naya.
I'm an idiot, asw. I meant GWu. Definitely not junk colors. Mistype ALL THE THINGS! Lol
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I'm new to the forum. The only Legacy deck I've ever owned on paper is GW Enchantress. I had similar feelings to those expressed by some forum members when people first tried the Helm/ Rest in Peace/Energy Field combo in Enchantress, namely that it was not worth it because:
1) Adding a third color made the deck's mana base worse and made it much more vulnerable to Wasteland
2) It was an obvious nonbo with Replenish
3) Energy Field is quite bad without Rest in Peace in play.
However I recently reconsidered this. If the metagame is full of decks that are vulnerable to Rest in Peace I think it is possible to build a GW Enchantress list with the Helm+RIP combo, but without any of the issues associated to adding a third color. This is my current list:
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
1 Mana Bloom
3 Elephant grass
4 Sterling Grove
3 Rest in Peace
4 Enchantress' Presence
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Oblivion Ring
2 City of Solitude
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Stony Silence
2 Aura of Silence
2 Choke
1 Blind Obedience
1 Humility
1 Elephant Grass
1 Rest in Peace
1 Karmic Justice
Overall, I think the main conflict between this version and the traditional one is Rest in Peace vs Replenish, since it doesn't make sense to run them together. Both cards are quite powerful, and in my view whether to run one card or the other depends on the metagame you're facing.
If the metagame is full of grindy decks with a lot of discard, countermagic/ Counterbalance lock or mass removal such as Pernicious Deed or Engineered Explosives you clearly want to go with Replenish. These decks would not usually put you under a lot of pressure early on, and thus there is time for Replenish to be relevant.
If the metagame is full of tempo decks that rely on cards vulnerable to RIP( Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman, Nimble Mongoose, etc) or if it is combo-heavy, I think the Helm-RIP version is superior. Of course we are still the underdogs against most combo decks, but RIP can ocassionaly prove disruptive( against storm combo), and we can at least try to combo them before they kill us. Against both kinds of decks Replenish is normally too slow to be relevant.
Some other questions you might have with regards to my list:
2 MD City of Solitude: I think people tend to see exlusively as a card against countermagic. But there are many other things this card does:
* It stops Rishadan Port from tapping lands, which is very relevant against Death&Taxes or Goblins.
* It stops Mother of Runes from activating if you want to remove a Thalia/Gaddock Tegg/Canonist with an Oblivion Ring
* It protects the combo from any disruption the turn you go off.
Overall I think every Enchantress list should MD at least 1 City of Solitude.
3 MD Oblivion Ring: Some people think this card is unnecessary in the MD, or only run 1. It is true we can ignore most of the creatures/permanents our opponents play, but there are still problematic cards that need an answer: Thalia, Canonist, Gaddock, Planeswalkers, an early Delver, etc. And of course it is still the best answer against Show and Tell. If Show and Tell wasn't a card I would probably run only 2, but never less.
If the metagame is full of decks that are vulnerable to Rest in Peace I think it is possible to build a GW Enchantress list with the Helm+RIP combo, but without any of the issues associated to adding a third color.
Welcome to the forums! Even in such a meta I prefer Ground Seal main.
It hurts most decks which are vulnerable to Rest in Peace.
It replaces itself against those decks where Rest in Peace is a dead card.
My meta would have to be very imbalanced before I'd move Rest in Peace to the main; and I'd have to be very sure about it. Best of luck with it though!
First, I think the key thing is that RIPHelm demands a very different enchantress to the older Naya/Selesnya ones. The older style lists were silver bullet toolbox decks. They ran a load of 1 & 2 of's. It was basically a strange tap-out control deck. Bant RIPHelm is a truer combo deck. It worries less about silver bullets, tutors and establishing a lock, and aims to assemble its 2 card combo and win. Its kinda like the difference between LED Dredge and Manaless Dredge. Manaless tries to win a war of attrition, LED goes off like a bomb. If you try to build RIPHelm in an old shell, it'll punish you more often than if you'd just stuck to one or the other.
This is where I don't agree with you, and apparently with most people in the forum. The issue is that Enchantress, even when it goes in the RIP-Helm direction, is never going to be able to be as fast as most other combo decks in the format. I've killed a few times on Turn 4, and once already on Turn 3, but it's not usual or even necessary( that's why I don't play Enlightened Tutor). I think it doesn't make a lot of sense to try and make Enchantress an all-out combo deck because there are simply better combo decks out there, and that is why I originally disliked the Bant RIPHelm approach.
But I don't think one is forced in the all-out combo direction just because of the inclusion of RIP-Helm combo. RIP is just a very good card against the meta, it's one of our silver bullets, and Helm is included because it kills instantly once RIP is in play.
O-Ring I see as a meta call. I always try to have one in my 75, but how many and where they are (md vs sb) is determined by what I expect to see. If I expect lost of S&T, it tends to be 3 main, if I don't expect much like that, its a 1 of board card.
If you don't have Oblivion Ring you can still lose to cards like Thalia, Liliana, or Jace. You are bound to face these cards in almost any Legacy tournament you play.
My meta would have to be very imbalanced before I'd move Rest in Peace to the main; and I'd have to be very sure about it. Best of luck with it though!
I admit Ground Seal is a good alternative, but it's not as definitive as RIP. It doesn't affect Tarmogoyf,Nimble Mongoose,or Knight of the Reliquary, it is not nearly as good as RIP against Dredge for instance, etc.
I think you're losing sight of what we actually care about. Understand, all of what I'm about to say is from the perspective of a Replenish player, but that's in part relevant to the trade-off of Ground Seal vs RIP — one lets you run replenish.
I don't think that shrinking Goyf, Mongoose, and KotR is worth the trade off of RIP.
It's not like we're typically losing to those cards anyway, and Ground Seal cuts off the card that will actually get through our lock (Deathrite Shaman) while also representing an increase in consistency. Ground Seal also protects our replenishes against grave hate (I've had people side in Faerie Macabre for lack of better options for example, but Surgical and Extirpate are also rather common, if poor, board choices against us as well).
Nerfing already non-issues for us isn't something we should care about. I'd rather nail the problem card (Deathrite), and smooth out the rest of our plays (that extra draw trigger on Seal is a pretty big deal) while enabling a second CA engine.
@O-Ring:
Don't forget that all of the problem walkers are solved by Leyline of Sanctity anyway.
@City of Solitude:
I don't think you can count City as hate against D&T. The games we lose to D&T, we aren't going to be casting 3 mana spells. Think of their Thalia --> Port openers. As much as city would help, you're never going to be casting it. And against countermagic, you're better off just playing the attrition game with them.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
I think you're losing sight of what we actually care about. Understand, all of what I'm about to say is from the perspective of a Replenish player, but that's in part relevant to the trade-off of Ground Seal vs RIP — one lets you run replenish.
I don't think that shrinking Goyf, Mongoose, and KotR is worth the trade off of RIP.
It's not like we're typically losing to those cards anyway, and Ground Seal cuts off the card that will actually get through our lock (Deathrite Shaman) while also representing an increase in consistency. Ground Seal also protects our replenishes against grave hate (I've had people side in Faerie Macabre for lack of better options for example, but Surgical and Extirpate are also rather common, if poor, board choices against us as well).
Nerfing already non-issues for us isn't something we should care about. I'd rather nail the problem card (Deathrite), and smooth out the rest of our plays (that extra draw trigger on Seal is a pretty big deal) while enabling a second CA engine.
I completely agree with your opinion that nerfing goyf, goose, and kotr is largely irrelevant. I have heard that as an argument for RiP for awhile now, and I always stress to people that if you are losing to those decks with Enchantress, you are either keeping/getting terrible hands, or you don't know the matchups. I rarely lose to tempo decks like Canadian Thresh, and have lost maybe a game ever to Maverick.
HOWEVER, my case for running RiP is different. The way I see it, the matchups that we usually lose to that need help from grave hate are Dredge and Reanimator. In the past, Dredge was an auto-win for us, but since the advent of Faithless Looting, they now go off far more consistently and faster than ever. Which makes silver bullet answers a tad bit awkward. As we all are well aware of, Reanimator tends to go off on turn 2-3 with a solid amount of consistency as well. What both of these matchups have in common is that they most always kill us before Replenish matters (ie, mid-late game), or before we could even cast the card in the first place. Which renders boarding them out a moot point, so I would much rather go with the card that is the best possible blanket answer to both of those decks, which is RiP. Granted, I understand Reanimator boards into a Show & Tell package games 2 and 3, but every little bit helps. And sadly, Ground Seal does nothing against Dredge anymore, since most don't even play Dread Return, or if they do, can simply kill you in the manner that Quadlazer Dredge does. Of course for Dredge, we have Elephant Grass, which is an auto-win for us if they don't play DR, but I like having as many answers as possible for them, and from a combo player's perspective, I love it when my opponent is forced to aggressively mulligan into only a few cards for an answer. So more is better, and not to mention that if you beat them game 1, they can very realistically play a turn 1 Cabal Therapy naming Elephant Grass anyway (which has happened before). Once again, the more answers the better.
On the topic of Deathrite Shaman, as I stated a few pages ago, I'm trying out Phyrexian Unlife as a broader answer. If worse comes to worse, I'll go back to a mainboard Ground Seal as an answer, but I think I will still have RiPs in my side board.
Just my 2 cents on the topic.
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Anyone here tested Blind Obedience? Is it worth considering?
I consider it the best answer against combo elves, and still stand by that assessment. The card slows them down to a crawl, usually long enough to lock them out. Outside of that it has minor applications against goblins (don't really advise much) or against sneak attack, but not a ton else. And certainly not mainboard material unless every other person in your meta plays combo elves.
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I don't know about the original asker but I would love to see examples of both.
Either is fine as I have the cards to make them.
RUG
Enchantress
RIP builds tend towards Bant with blue bringing energy field and detention sphere. They tend to be more vulnerable to wasteland, less consistent in topdeck mode, and more vulnerable to countermagic and destroy effects, but they gain the ability to go for much more aggressive combo kills when the need arises instead of naya which needs to lock down the board before considering winning.
I've tested the RIP builds, but I've never liked the vulnerabilities they create in the deck. I run a somewhat non-standard Naya Replenish list.
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
Core Enchantments: 14
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Sterling Grove
2 Solitary Confinement
Silver Bullets and Hate: 11
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Elephant Grass
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Aura of Silence
1 Suppression Field
1 Blood Moon
2 Ground Seal
1 Words of War
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
Other: 2
2 Replenish
Lands and Moxen: 22 (effectively 21 sources)
2 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
1 Taiga
2 Savannah
6 Forest
4 Plains
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ground Seal
1 Stony Silence
1 Humility
2 Elephant Grass
1 Planar Collapse
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Choke
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Replenish
1 Karmic Justice
1 Suppression Field
Notable in my list is a the highly irregular choice of Mox Diamond in the main, and a heavier reliance on the graveyard due to being willing to walk key pieces into removal due to the replenishes. Leylines in the main are a nod to my local meta which is very heavily populated with hand destruction and a sprinkling of combo.
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4 Argothian Enchantress
Enchantments 32
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Sterling Grove
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Elephant Grass
2 Mirri's Guile
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Phyrexian Unlife
1 Moat
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Word's of War
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Choke
1 City of Solitude
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Replenish
Lands 20
4 Windswept Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
5 Forest
2 Plains
1 Karakas
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Rest in Peace
1 Choke
1 Stony Silence
1 Humility
1 Karmic Justice
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Flex Slots
I have been playing this list or very close to it for quite some time now. There are a number of flex slots available in the main as well as the side, depending on your meta. Other common mainboard/sideboard cards I switch back and forth between playing are Ground Seal, Blood Moon, Raking Canopy, Lignify, and Aura of Silence. These choices are largely meta dependent. I played Raking Canopy largely when Esper Stoneblade first hit the scene, as it killed all their win-cons except when they were holding a Sword of Feast and Famine. It was also my answer to UW Miracles, which was also another popular deck choice around that time. A few years ago I tried out a mainboard Choke, and have never gone back. I absolutely love it, and don't see myself replacing it soon. It is simply too good against many popular decks like Stoneblade, Thresh, Team America, BUG, and others. Blood Moon does many of the same things against these opponents, but I greatly enjoy the fact that it is one sided, as the symmetry from Blood Moon has hurt me a few times in the past. What with the rise of BUG, I may go back to running it in the 75 again, though.
The choice of Unlife may seem odd to people new to the deck, or even veterans, but I do have a method for my madness. We used to play it in the golden days when Zoo ran rampant over the format after Shards block, before Batterskull came around. It worked to essentially gain us 10 life to play with in order to lock them out. I am currently testing it against all the Deathrite decks. I got rather tired of stabilizing at 4-6 life just to die to a few Shamans because we can't afford to be aggressive with our Groves in order to find our Words of War. Unlife shuts it down cold, and also works to make it more difficult for decks like TES to combo us out, seeing as they need an additional 5 storm (or a few more goblins). In order to answer this, many people have started running Ground Seals in the main again, but I was never a huge fan of that, and enjoy the wider array of usage that Unlife gives us. Testing will tell if I'm wrong, and Ground Seal is the better choice, but as it stands I'm giving this old gem another go.
As ExpiredRascals said, I do not care for the vulnerabilities that the Helm versions have. Especially concerning that Energy Field does not give us shroud, which is a HUGE problem. From being vulnerable to cards like Liliana of the Veil, Jace, the Mindsculptor, discard is a big one, Tendrils of Agony, etc. I also feel that that version doesn't shore up any weaknesses this archetype has against its worst matchup (combo), doesn't make much of a change in our aggro matchup, doesn't run Grove for shroud (which is another point of weakness with Abrupt Decay being in existence), and the shortcomings of Field. So I have never really been a fan, nor have I been tempted to try it out.
If you want to read a tourney report I made to give some insight on my thought processes and playstyle in tournaments, or simply want to familiarize yourself with the deck and how it plays before pulling the trigger and buying it, check this out http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8742438&highlight=10th#post8742438 post number #1809. Granted it was a year ago, but aside form meta game shifts and new cards, many of the ideas, sideboarding, decision paths, etc remain the same.
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On the topic of Moat:
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On the topic of Moat:
I'm a little surprised at the large non-basic count in your list. How often do you find yourself vulnerable to wasteland?
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Not often at all, to be honest. Every time I fetch against either a blind opponent or someone I know that plays wasteland, I go for a basic. Even against aggressive wasteland decks like Thresh and UR Delver I do pretty well. I also sandbag Sanctums for as long as I can, and assume they will be wastelanded the turn after I play them, so I almost count them as pseudo rituals with a possible rebound. I'm almost considering going back to 21 lands, as I've been mulliganing a ton lately, but every time I do I get mana flooded. It has always been a damned if I do, damned if I don't situation for me lol.
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On the topic of Moat:
Being nearly immune to wasteland is a big deal for me given the deck's gameplan, so a lot of my choices have been made to limit the potential for interaction with my manabase by other decks.
Also, I heartily recommend giving Chrome Moxen a try, they improve the early game speed of the deck, but they also increase your ability to chain plays off the topdeck. Mox Diamond is one that I tested on a lark awhile back, and while I think it's generally worse than Chrome Mox in the deck due to taking a spell slot rather than a land slot, I've been very impressed with it as a singleton. It gives you more fixing, more ways of landing t1 enchantress, etc.
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I rarely feel forced to fetch up dual lands, and usually end the game with most of my basics out. Then again I run far fewer WW costing cards in the main than you do, so my early game usually only has to comprise of 1 maybe 2 white sources, mostly from a plains and a utopia sprawl.
I've always been very happy with my Canopy, as I hate bricking on early and/or critical turns from not having an enchantment. I agree though that I'm starting to just not care much about Karakas, we have no way to search it, our Reanimator matchup is so abysmal, and it is on the decline anyway what with Dr Shaman running around. It has been one of those things that has just stayed because it has always been there.
In the 3 years I've played this deck, I have never tried out the various forms of accelerants that other people use, such as Elvish Spirit Guide, Chrome Mox, Lotus Petal, Mox Diamond. I understand their merits, and I guess I should probably give them a go. I have always been resistant to change with this deck, as evidenced by the fact that it took me awhile to switch to GSZ when it was brand new. Ever since that, though, I have never looked back, so maybe this will be the same. My only concern is that we have to aggressively mulligan with this deck, so how has that been for you, as far as being useful more often than not? Because Chrome Mox is almost equivalent to another mulligan.
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On the topic of Moat:
I do approach the deck a bit different than most though. I'm reasonably okay with keeping non-enchantress hands and playing like Parfait until I find a draw engine. This means that mulligans are less common and the card disadvantage is less likely to be an issue. The upside however is huge. T1 Argothian Enchantress is a total beating, and the non-land mana sources ease the D&T match-up quite a bit by relieving some of the pressure that Rishadan Port exerts on us. When you're in the position where you need to clutch chain draws to survive, the moxen also help you make drops off the top of your deck even as you run out of untapped lands. Lastly, Mox Diamond in particular has been handy since it represents a way of producing red without fetching taiga or wasting a utopia sprawl on fixing red.
Regarding GSZ, how has that been for you? I really hated it when i tried it (3 mana felt bad for a non-enchantment, and it was another way to whiff when under pressure and trying to keep solitary confinement up), but I might be willing to give it a second shot.
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4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Instants: 2
2 Enlightened Tutor
Sorceries: 3
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Replenish
Artifacts: 1
1 Helm of Obedience
Enchantments: 29
4 Enchantress' Presence
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Elephant Grass
3 Rest in Peace
3 Sterling Grove
3 Wild Growth
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Moat
1 Nevermore
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
6 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
2 Plains
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Runed Halo
1 Aura of Silence
1 City of Solitude
1 Choke
1 Humility
1 Karmic Justice
1 Nevermore
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Stony Silence
Emrakul is horrible, I'm not going to go into why seeing as it is discussed every few pages, so I'd peruse them if I were you.
Leyline of Sanctity should never be played as anything less than a 4 in the 75, Nevermore is usually too slow against the decks we need a card like that for, i.e. combo.
I highly suggest running a Sphere of Safety somewhere in the main.
I have always hated Oblivion Ring as a 2 of in the main. When I first started playing this deck by borrowing it from a friend, and he had 2 main, I despised it. I have an odd love/hate relationship with the card, and mainly run it as a silver bullet as there are many scenarios where drawing it doesn't do a damn thing for you and you wish it was something else.
I don't like playing non-green fetches, as they can force you to search up a dual when you would rather have a forest. I consider the upside of being able to get a basic forest far higher than being able to get a basic plains.
I normally despise Enlightened Tutor, as it is a Time Walk for our blue opponents most of the time, and only serves as card disadvantage, but because you need a way to tutor up Helm, I guess it is passable.
I'm genuinely curious as to why you'd play Helm/RiP combo in a shell like this. This seems strictly worse than both the traditional GWr version, as you are simply diluting what that deck does for a potentially quicker kill. I'd honestly just suggest playing GWr and cut Helm combo or GWu if you want to run Helm. Just my 2 cents, though.
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On the topic of Moat:
Your Wild Growth and Sterling Grove counts should both never drop from 4. I can't think of a single match-up where you'd even side either of them out, let alone choose to shave them in the main.
I agree that Nevermore isn't going to do what you need it to, and that you absolutely must fit 4 leylines somewhere in your 75. Emrakul is a dead draw that doesn't even draw you a card, and it only does something meaningful when you've already won.
Oblivion Ring is to taste. Like cthulhudude, I'm not a fan, and I only begrudgingly allot it a single slot, but I know others that run as many as 3 or 4 in their main. This one is up to you.
Enlightened Tutor is a necessary evil of the RIP/Helm approach. If you choose to shift into a Replenish build, you should cut the tutors.
I think you'll want either choke or blood moon in your main. Since you don't run red atm, I'd go choke.
I agree as well that Sphere of Safety almost certainly needs to make its way into your maindeck.
I'm not a fan of Runed Halo. I've just cut the last copy from my 75. I think it's too narrow, and you've got better defenses to everything that it would apply to.
GSZ is to taste — I'm not a fan, but most on here love it.
I'd cut Karakas. With no way of tutoring it, it just does nothing for us, except make more hands bad against wasteland decks.
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I completely agree that in this day and age, Grove is a must have at 4. While I also agree on the Wild Growth topic, and run 4 myself, the fact is that when you run the numbers of 7 vs 8 growth effects through hypergeometric distribution (the statistics tool used to calculate draw percentages of certain cards) it is an almost negligible difference of finding at least 1 in the opening hand. From that rationale I have seen a few other respected Enchantress players in the community that only play 7 growths.
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On the topic of Moat:
RUG
Enchantress
I'm an idiot, asw. I meant GWu. Definitely not junk colors. Mistype ALL THE THINGS! Lol
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On the topic of Moat:
I'm new to the forum. The only Legacy deck I've ever owned on paper is GW Enchantress. I had similar feelings to those expressed by some forum members when people first tried the Helm/ Rest in Peace/Energy Field combo in Enchantress, namely that it was not worth it because:
1) Adding a third color made the deck's mana base worse and made it much more vulnerable to Wasteland
2) It was an obvious nonbo with Replenish
3) Energy Field is quite bad without Rest in Peace in play.
However I recently reconsidered this. If the metagame is full of decks that are vulnerable to Rest in Peace I think it is possible to build a GW Enchantress list with the Helm+RIP combo, but without any of the issues associated to adding a third color. This is my current list:
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
1 Mana Bloom
3 Elephant grass
4 Sterling Grove
3 Rest in Peace
4 Enchantress' Presence
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Oblivion Ring
2 City of Solitude
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Helm of Obedience
4 Windswept Heath
2 Karakas
2 Serra's Sanctum
8 Forest
4 Plains
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Stony Silence
2 Aura of Silence
2 Choke
1 Blind Obedience
1 Humility
1 Elephant Grass
1 Rest in Peace
1 Karmic Justice
Overall, I think the main conflict between this version and the traditional one is Rest in Peace vs Replenish, since it doesn't make sense to run them together. Both cards are quite powerful, and in my view whether to run one card or the other depends on the metagame you're facing.
If the metagame is full of grindy decks with a lot of discard, countermagic/ Counterbalance lock or mass removal such as Pernicious Deed or Engineered Explosives you clearly want to go with Replenish. These decks would not usually put you under a lot of pressure early on, and thus there is time for Replenish to be relevant.
If the metagame is full of tempo decks that rely on cards vulnerable to RIP( Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman, Nimble Mongoose, etc) or if it is combo-heavy, I think the Helm-RIP version is superior. Of course we are still the underdogs against most combo decks, but RIP can ocassionaly prove disruptive( against storm combo), and we can at least try to combo them before they kill us. Against both kinds of decks Replenish is normally too slow to be relevant.
Some other questions you might have with regards to my list:
2 MD City of Solitude: I think people tend to see exlusively as a card against countermagic. But there are many other things this card does:
* It stops Rishadan Port from tapping lands, which is very relevant against Death&Taxes or Goblins.
* It stops Mother of Runes from activating if you want to remove a Thalia/Gaddock Tegg/Canonist with an Oblivion Ring
* It protects the combo from any disruption the turn you go off.
Overall I think every Enchantress list should MD at least 1 City of Solitude.
3 MD Oblivion Ring: Some people think this card is unnecessary in the MD, or only run 1. It is true we can ignore most of the creatures/permanents our opponents play, but there are still problematic cards that need an answer: Thalia, Canonist, Gaddock, Planeswalkers, an early Delver, etc. And of course it is still the best answer against Show and Tell. If Show and Tell wasn't a card I would probably run only 2, but never less.
Welcome to the forums! Even in such a meta I prefer Ground Seal main.
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This is where I don't agree with you, and apparently with most people in the forum. The issue is that Enchantress, even when it goes in the RIP-Helm direction, is never going to be able to be as fast as most other combo decks in the format. I've killed a few times on Turn 4, and once already on Turn 3, but it's not usual or even necessary( that's why I don't play Enlightened Tutor). I think it doesn't make a lot of sense to try and make Enchantress an all-out combo deck because there are simply better combo decks out there, and that is why I originally disliked the Bant RIPHelm approach.
But I don't think one is forced in the all-out combo direction just because of the inclusion of RIP-Helm combo. RIP is just a very good card against the meta, it's one of our silver bullets, and Helm is included because it kills instantly once RIP is in play.
If you don't have Oblivion Ring you can still lose to cards like Thalia, Liliana, or Jace. You are bound to face these cards in almost any Legacy tournament you play.
I admit Ground Seal is a good alternative, but it's not as definitive as RIP. It doesn't affect Tarmogoyf,Nimble Mongoose,or Knight of the Reliquary, it is not nearly as good as RIP against Dredge for instance, etc.
I don't think that shrinking Goyf, Mongoose, and KotR is worth the trade off of RIP.
It's not like we're typically losing to those cards anyway, and Ground Seal cuts off the card that will actually get through our lock (Deathrite Shaman) while also representing an increase in consistency. Ground Seal also protects our replenishes against grave hate (I've had people side in Faerie Macabre for lack of better options for example, but Surgical and Extirpate are also rather common, if poor, board choices against us as well).
Nerfing already non-issues for us isn't something we should care about. I'd rather nail the problem card (Deathrite), and smooth out the rest of our plays (that extra draw trigger on Seal is a pretty big deal) while enabling a second CA engine.
@O-Ring:
Don't forget that all of the problem walkers are solved by Leyline of Sanctity anyway.
@City of Solitude:
I don't think you can count City as hate against D&T. The games we lose to D&T, we aren't going to be casting 3 mana spells. Think of their Thalia --> Port openers. As much as city would help, you're never going to be casting it. And against countermagic, you're better off just playing the attrition game with them.
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I completely agree with your opinion that nerfing goyf, goose, and kotr is largely irrelevant. I have heard that as an argument for RiP for awhile now, and I always stress to people that if you are losing to those decks with Enchantress, you are either keeping/getting terrible hands, or you don't know the matchups. I rarely lose to tempo decks like Canadian Thresh, and have lost maybe a game ever to Maverick.
HOWEVER, my case for running RiP is different. The way I see it, the matchups that we usually lose to that need help from grave hate are Dredge and Reanimator. In the past, Dredge was an auto-win for us, but since the advent of Faithless Looting, they now go off far more consistently and faster than ever. Which makes silver bullet answers a tad bit awkward. As we all are well aware of, Reanimator tends to go off on turn 2-3 with a solid amount of consistency as well. What both of these matchups have in common is that they most always kill us before Replenish matters (ie, mid-late game), or before we could even cast the card in the first place. Which renders boarding them out a moot point, so I would much rather go with the card that is the best possible blanket answer to both of those decks, which is RiP. Granted, I understand Reanimator boards into a Show & Tell package games 2 and 3, but every little bit helps. And sadly, Ground Seal does nothing against Dredge anymore, since most don't even play Dread Return, or if they do, can simply kill you in the manner that Quadlazer Dredge does. Of course for Dredge, we have Elephant Grass, which is an auto-win for us if they don't play DR, but I like having as many answers as possible for them, and from a combo player's perspective, I love it when my opponent is forced to aggressively mulligan into only a few cards for an answer. So more is better, and not to mention that if you beat them game 1, they can very realistically play a turn 1 Cabal Therapy naming Elephant Grass anyway (which has happened before). Once again, the more answers the better.
On the topic of Deathrite Shaman, as I stated a few pages ago, I'm trying out Phyrexian Unlife as a broader answer. If worse comes to worse, I'll go back to a mainboard Ground Seal as an answer, but I think I will still have RiPs in my side board.
Just my 2 cents on the topic.
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On the topic of Moat:
I consider it the best answer against combo elves, and still stand by that assessment. The card slows them down to a crawl, usually long enough to lock them out. Outside of that it has minor applications against goblins (don't really advise much) or against sneak attack, but not a ton else. And certainly not mainboard material unless every other person in your meta plays combo elves.
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On the topic of Moat: