Words of Wind is also of note as you break the symmetry with a draw effect.
Yes, but keep in mind that the primary method of abusing Words of Wind (Exploration and the old land drop rule) got more or less permanently nerfed. Now it's much harder to break the symmetry.
Hi, I'm kinda freshmeat in pro-magic, and i've always loved enchantress deck. I recently upgraded my forfun aura deck into a enchantress (budget) so, please, excuse my ignorance.
My question is: do you guys think that enchantress could get back to tier 1 decks? What is the reason it isn't winning champs: is it because fastest decks are ruling the field, is it lack of good response in the meta or what?
Again, please excuse my ignorance, I'm also new in the forum. I've been reading the topic and didn't find something really convincing about this.
Another question is: what about Emrakul? Is it still playable? I like the sinergy with Serra Sanctum and Enlightened Tutor.
From my experience, enchantress doesn't have the terrible match-up against combo that everyone seems to believe. The discard-heavy meta right now essentially requires mainboard leyline of sanctity, and that response to the disruptive aggro shored up the deck's G1 percentages by having extra SB-level combo hate in the mainboard (for example, I have 3 leyline in the MB).
The thing about this deck though, is that it is powerful because nobody can meaningfully interact with it. I speak from experience primarily with the GWr Replenish school, not the Bant RIP school (in my experience the bant builds give up too much of what makes the deck strong to support — heavy mainboard hate, low vulnerability to non-basic hate, high individual card value, strong resiliency against countermagic and disruption). If enchantress were to become truly Tier 1, the shift of decks to actually devoting adequate and dedicated SB slots to the match-up would knock it back down. Enchantress is never going to be more than a Tier 1.5 deck imo. It may often be an excellent metagame choice (and indeed, I believe it is so right now), but it attacks a vulnerability in the metagame rather than being a pillar of it. Enchantress is also more dependent than most other decks to metagame tuning. A given enchantress list may have as many as fifteen flex spots in the list. That means 15 mainboard slots for silver-bullets and targeted hate. Understanding and predicting the metagame in which you'll be playing is crucial, because you're relying on being essentially pre-boarded against the majority of the field, with the option to go totally overboard in G2 (and G3). The cocktail of ~30 hate pieces (across the MB and SB) are what will define your list and how well it will be able to perform. That's significantly more room for innovation and error in tuning than most other decks (ever try tuning burn or belcher? Yeah, not a whole lot to work with).
Of course, this is all predicated on the more controlling and prison-deck approach of the list (GW and GWr). If you're playing the bant RIP-Helm, you likely have less free spots and may not be able to function as well under the same philosophy.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
what does enchantress players think about the newly leaked spoiler thassa? i think she might house in enchantress decks?
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I mainly want to see how good the G/W ones are as trying to get devotion to red would be hard in here. At least with green, our manachantments feed towards that.
Thassa relies on other creatures to be good. However, if the other Gods (G/R/W) are anywhere near as good, they'll be playable in the deck.
Looks like the G god is called "Nylea, God Of The Hunt". No prizes for guessing that's going to be all about creatures and the attack step.
What we need are a couple enchantments that care about other enchantments - not enchantments that care about creatures. Fortunately we really only need one or two good ones to give us a significant boost, so there may yet be hope...
While the initial Theros spoilers have been pretty lackluster, we're only at the tip of the iceberg, so I still have hope.
In other news, stupid tinypic removed my banner (after, what, two years?). I've since stopped using tinypic to host my stuff and this is why. I'll have to get in contact with OP.
Aside from Leyline of Sanctity what other cards make us better vs storm decks?
If you run the fringe builds ive seen pop up: Curse of Exhaustion can hurt them. Runed Halo if you want to play risky. If you call the wincon right, they may have to wait, buying you time. If you call wrong, you wasted a silver bullet and/or a valuable turn.
They key is to get leyline and drop quick Groves to protect them.
Killing their artifact mana is a really big deal, so something like Aura of Silence (and stony silence) can slow down decks like ANT a ton. Leyline is standard fair, and runed halo is kinda meh, but it still does work. The key really is to just stall them out until you can get a leyline, confinement, or halo shielded by sterling grove.
All that being said, you also can bring in grave hate if you're starved for options. In my experience, there's more hate that hinders and stops them than you're able to board in. Elephant grass is often left in as a 2-of to deal with Empty the Warrens kills, and much of your other maindeck hate should still be good.
I will say though, Nevermore never really cut it for me. I tried making it work for a long time, but it just never seemed to actually stop what I brought it in to address. I recently cut it from my SB and have no intentions of re-adding it.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
From the 55 spoiled cards so far, it doesn't seem like Enchantress is much stronger. What are your opinions on Theros bringing something useful to legacy Enchantress? Impossible? Very possible? Also, what are your thoughts about serra's sanctum?
I find the Gods and God weapons pretty compelling. It gives Enchantress legitimate finishers. Previously Enchantress was relying on Enchantment Token generators or more recently HelmRIP.
Having Enchantment as finishers will likely allow the deck to run smoother as well as they wouldn't have to run as many non-enchantments. Having Shrouded Gods seems pretty good.
Having Enchantment as finishers will likely allow the deck to run smoother as well as they wouldn't have to run as many non-enchantments. Having Shrouded Gods seems pretty good.
So far there's nothing really very good for us. Maybe we'll get a GW leyline which makes enchantment spells uncounterable, but I'm not holding my breath. A land which can bring enchantments back from our yard could be a good boost.
You can bet we aren't getting any new playable prison effects, so it's going to have to be "enchantment matters" cards if anything.
You're probably right but do you feel like you need new playable prison effects? And if so, why?
If they are better than the ones we have, the deck will improve. The deck needs something to improve if it's doing to be more competitive. Better prison is one such way we could get help (but probably the least likely).
The red god card + Sigil = GG imo. I'd rather just leave him as an enchantment so that he isn't removed by StP or Path, besides we won't have the red for Devotion.
Short of a sizable meta shift, what do we need to climb the tier list? What's holding us back? Combo? Control? Aggro? Something else?
At least if we go over that, we know what to hope for.
Honestly, our best position is where we are now. We are very well positioned against the big decks right now, but we're not prevalent enough to be a commonly tested match-up or one accounted for in most SBs. If we ever became mainstream-popular, the deck would become way worse by virtue of cards like Reverent Silence making their way into SBs.
Just got to say, you've definitely earned distinction as an MTGS hero
Quote from Stardust »
Because he's the hero MTGS deserves, and the one it needs right now. So we'll global him. Because he can take it. Because he's not just our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. An expired rascal.
Quote from LuckNorris »
ExpiredRascals you sir are a god-like hero.
Quote from Lanxal »
ER is a masterful god who cannot be beaten in any endeavour.
Rishadan Port is a problematic card when land auras are the strategy. Enchantments don't get under a Thalia tax either, so I think DnT will pretty much always be a problem for Enchantress. Unless it can start detonating, consistently, faster than Thalia can come down. Even ANT and TES have trouble with that sometimes though.
Yes, but keep in mind that the primary method of abusing Words of Wind (Exploration and the old land drop rule) got more or less permanently nerfed. Now it's much harder to break the symmetry.
My question is: do you guys think that enchantress could get back to tier 1 decks? What is the reason it isn't winning champs: is it because fastest decks are ruling the field, is it lack of good response in the meta or what?
Again, please excuse my ignorance, I'm also new in the forum. I've been reading the topic and didn't find something really convincing about this.
Another question is: what about Emrakul? Is it still playable? I like the sinergy with Serra Sanctum and Enlightened Tutor.
The thing about this deck though, is that it is powerful because nobody can meaningfully interact with it. I speak from experience primarily with the GWr Replenish school, not the Bant RIP school (in my experience the bant builds give up too much of what makes the deck strong to support — heavy mainboard hate, low vulnerability to non-basic hate, high individual card value, strong resiliency against countermagic and disruption). If enchantress were to become truly Tier 1, the shift of decks to actually devoting adequate and dedicated SB slots to the match-up would knock it back down. Enchantress is never going to be more than a Tier 1.5 deck imo. It may often be an excellent metagame choice (and indeed, I believe it is so right now), but it attacks a vulnerability in the metagame rather than being a pillar of it. Enchantress is also more dependent than most other decks to metagame tuning. A given enchantress list may have as many as fifteen flex spots in the list. That means 15 mainboard slots for silver-bullets and targeted hate. Understanding and predicting the metagame in which you'll be playing is crucial, because you're relying on being essentially pre-boarded against the majority of the field, with the option to go totally overboard in G2 (and G3). The cocktail of ~30 hate pieces (across the MB and SB) are what will define your list and how well it will be able to perform. That's significantly more room for innovation and error in tuning than most other decks (ever try tuning burn or belcher? Yeah, not a whole lot to work with).
Of course, this is all predicated on the more controlling and prison-deck approach of the list (GW and GWr). If you're playing the bant RIP-Helm, you likely have less free spots and may not be able to function as well under the same philosophy.
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Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV
UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tron GR
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
Thassa relies on other creatures to be good. However, if the other Gods (G/R/W) are anywhere near as good, they'll be playable in the deck.
EDH Decks:
RBG Kresh, the Bloodbraided RBG
GW Rhys, the Redeemed GW
Legacy:
RGW Enchantress RGW
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyLooks like the G god is called "Nylea, God Of The Hunt". No prizes for guessing that's going to be all about creatures and the attack step.
What we need are a couple enchantments that care about other enchantments - not enchantments that care about creatures. Fortunately we really only need one or two good ones to give us a significant boost, so there may yet be hope...
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
In other news, stupid tinypic removed my banner (after, what, two years?). I've since stopped using tinypic to host my stuff and this is why.
Legacy: GWR Enchantress <--That's my banner!
Casual: WB [[Primer]]Clerics Tribal; BU Affinity
EDH: ...U [[Primer]]Arcum Dagsson; BG Legal Stax; B Illegal Stax
Proxy: .WX TriniStax
Other stuff: [[Official]]Shuffling, Truth + Maths
If you run the fringe builds ive seen pop up: Curse of Exhaustion can hurt them. Runed Halo if you want to play risky. If you call the wincon right, they may have to wait, buying you time. If you call wrong, you wasted a silver bullet and/or a valuable turn.
They key is to get leyline and drop quick Groves to protect them.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyI've had some luck with Runed Halo naming Tendrils of Agony as a backup Leyline.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Killing their artifact mana is a really big deal, so something like Aura of Silence (and stony silence) can slow down decks like ANT a ton. Leyline is standard fair, and runed halo is kinda meh, but it still does work. The key really is to just stall them out until you can get a leyline, confinement, or halo shielded by sterling grove.
All that being said, you also can bring in grave hate if you're starved for options. In my experience, there's more hate that hinders and stops them than you're able to board in. Elephant grass is often left in as a 2-of to deal with Empty the Warrens kills, and much of your other maindeck hate should still be good.
I will say though, Nevermore never really cut it for me. I tried making it work for a long time, but it just never seemed to actually stop what I brought it in to address. I recently cut it from my SB and have no intentions of re-adding it.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
إن سرقت إسرق جمل
Level 1 Judge
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-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Having Enchantment as finishers will likely allow the deck to run smoother as well as they wouldn't have to run as many non-enchantments. Having Shrouded Gods seems pretty good.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
Sigil Of The Empty Throne and Words Of Warare enchantments. We don't need finishers - we need to see enchantments which benefit from or enhance other enchantments; such as Sterling Grove, Enchantress's Presence, and the aforementioned Sigil.
So far there's nothing really very good for us. Maybe we'll get a GW leyline which makes enchantment spells uncounterable, but I'm not holding my breath. A land which can bring enchantments back from our yard could be a good boost.
You can bet we aren't getting any new playable prison effects, so it's going to have to be "enchantment matters" cards if anything.
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
If they are better than the ones we have, the deck will improve. The deck needs something to improve if it's doing to be more competitive. Better prison is one such way we could get help (but probably the least likely).
https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Honestly, our best position is where we are now. We are very well positioned against the big decks right now, but we're not prevalent enough to be a commonly tested match-up or one accounted for in most SBs. If we ever became mainstream-popular, the deck would become way worse by virtue of cards like Reverent Silence making their way into SBs.
Body Count: GRRRUUUUUUUUUUU
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Level 1 Judge
My Cube for use with 6th ed. Rules
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730