Disclaimer: There now exists several Land Grant Storm decks in the game that could be called "Belcher", including but not limited to: Summoner's Pact Spanish Inquisition, The Epic Doomsday, and Saint. This primer is not about any of those decks, but is about the G/R Belcher deck. In fairness, this deck should really be called Empty the Warrens Storm, but the name Belcher has sort of stuck, even though there are more than a few decks that play the namesake.
If there were a go-to deck that one could use to claim Legacy is a turn-1 format, it would be Belcher. This deck's entire gameplan revolves around the first 3 turns, with the goal being to kill the opponent as quickly as possible. The proficient Belcher pilot does not like opponents, he likes spectators.
There are two main types of G/R Belcher decks: Wishless Belcher, which doesn't play Burning Wish and instead uses cyclers like Street Wraith to thin the deck, and vanilla Belcher which plays a Burning Wish package. These decks look similar, and subsequently, play similarly. Belcher is a Land Grant Storm deck whose goal is to make approximately 12-20 goblins through Empty the Warrens or win the game outright by turning over the pilot's entire Library via a Goblin Charbelcher. There are also older Belcher lists that play Black, because they lacked all of the great Red rituals way back in the days of yore. Those decks will also not be discussed in this primer. This primer is concerned with the current iteration of the deck.
There are some things a person must accept before attempting to seriously pilot this deck. Perhaps the most important is admitting to oneself that he is not playing Magic. Recognise that luck is the residue of design. This deck does not even pretend to want to play Magic. Playing this deck is playing a game of math—a game of probability statistics to speak more accurately. Legacy is the format of consistency, and Belcher takes this to the extreme. The other important thing a person requires to play this deck in tournament play is a healthy dose of self-reflection. If the thought of showing up to a tournament and beating some super serious players who have "good" decks, nice foils, and expensive lands with a heavily optimised a pile of trash so well-worn it's barely legal to play doesn't put a smile on your face, then this deck is also not for you.
For whatever reason, people still like to argue about using cards like Chancellor of the Annex, Chancellor of the Tangle, or even Serum Powder in this deck. I have no idea why. Because Belcher is such a linear deck, it has been calculated to hell; yet, some people still swear that these cards are "like really great guys just try it out". Trall over at The Source has an excellent study about card selection that for some reason has gone largely unnoticed. That, or people prefer their guts over math. Whatever the reason: the fact that 99% of the Belcher decks that have done well in tournament play use nearly the same shell the math indicates is best says something about Trall's work.
For that reason, I really do not think maindeck card selection options need to be addressed currently. That's subject to change in the future; Belcher may get some insane card that is able to make it into the maindeck, but for now that's yet to happen. With that in mind, only the good cards will be covered.
Goblin Charbelcher - The deck's namesake. This is why we build the deck the way we do. Through the games I've piloted this deck, I've had a surprising number of people ask about the 1 Land we run. "Why do you play Land Grant?" or "Does it still do damage?" are questions I get a lot. Actually, yes, if Belcher's first condition fails it still deals damage. If you reveal no land cards, Goblin Charbelcher deals damage equal to the number of cards revealed, and then you may order your library as you like.
Empty the Warrens - Despite the name, this is the real win condition of the deck. This is a card that will win against every fair deck, and even most unfair decks. Due to Burning Wish, you'll be winning with this card most often. Even if you aren't able to do anything other than dump your entire hand and cast it turn 2 for 10-or-so Goblins, most decks won't be able to handle 10 damage Turn 3.
Burning Wish - This card is a staple in most Storm decks because, as per this ruling: In a sanctioned event, a card that’s “outside the game” is one that’s in your sideboard., it functions as a wildcard of up to 15 different cards. Generally it functions as Empty the Warrens, but it will often be used as removal to clear the way for a win condition.
- Initial Mana Sources
Taiga - Taps for G / R and triggers Belcher because it is a nonbasic Mountain after all. Stomping Ground does see play in some decks, but it's a worse version of Taiga. I don't recommend taking it to tournament, but it's fine for most cases. The 2 damage rarely matters. However I have personally been in games against Esper Deathblade where the shock damage totally mattered a lot (I won, in case you were wondering).
Land Grant - This is arguably the single card that makes the deck work. It allows you to play 5 lands in theory and only 1 in practice. For added value after it grabs your Taiga it can still be imprinted on Chrome Mox or be revealed to give free storm. Be aware that revealing your hand is a casting cost so you can't wait for Land Grant to resolve then show your hand. You must show your hand when it goes onto the stack (or, I guess technically before that even). Keep that in mind before you reveal your strategy.
Chrome Mox - The worst permanent mana source because it requires us to pitch a card to it. It does get better post-board because games tend to be slower, and it's the only recurring mana source besides the Taiga or the occasional Forest. It's also worth noting that you do not have to name the Imprint until after it resolves.
Elvish Spirit Guide/Simian Spirit Guide - Every single card in this deck is 100% necessary, however if I had to chose the "weakest" it would probably be the Spirit Guides. In a lot of ways these cards are only fodder for Chrome Mox, but free mana is hard to compete with in terms of value.
Lotus Petal - This is a truly great card. It's restricted in Vintage and a staple in every Storm deck. It provides free mana, free storm, and color correction.
- Rituals
Desperate Ritual - This card nets you R and +1 storm that's really all this deck wants. The Splice onto Arcane effect is a nice addition as it allows you to get another R provided you have 2RR floating and 2 Desperate Rituals in hand, but it comes up so rarely that I would honestly say it does not matter. I haven't seen the exact source code, but I don't even think Trall included the possibility to Splice in his simulator. I can't think of many combinations where you end up with the correct mana to even cast it with Arcane, and hell, every Storm player I know likes to finish with no extra floating mana and no extra Storm triggers for maximum style. There are situations I've been in where I had the mana for Splice, but didn't do it because I didn't need the extra R.
Lion's Eye Diamond - Obviously this isn't a ritual, but plays a lot like one since it cannot be played as an initial mana source like all the other Artifacts in this deck because of its additional cost. Its uses are pretty much limited to activating Belcher, and creating mana after casting a Burning Wish. Occasionally, if you are all in, you may want to activate it after casting a Gitaxian Probe, or do some tricks with Infernal Tutor, but these are purely situational. This card is played mostly for its situational uses and its strength after Wishing. Excluding those it's really just free storm. Don't forget to hold priority after casting Burning Wish.
Rite of Flame - Yet another +R / +1 storm except this card gets really broken really fast when you have more than one. It practically has its own built-in Pyromancer Ascension.
Seething Song - This is consistently the best ritual because it always nets RR, but the major downside is its mana cost since it generally can't be cast first in your ritual chain.
Tinder Wall - This is a ritual in the same way LED. It is also possibly one of the most under-rated cards in the deck among non-pilots. This card is deceptively important since it filters mana from ESGs and even nets R mana whilst doing it! It has the added benefit of being able to block in slower games, but becomes less useful in matchups that can easily remove it. Note though that, like Lion's Eye Diamond, it should not be played like a ritual. If you have a mana-source in play, and a Tinder Wall in hand with nothing to do, then play your Tinder Wall. Next turn it'll be free RR. Losing 1 storm is inconsequential compared to having free mana.
- Cantrips
Street Wraith - This section used to say "It usually only sees play in Wishless builds as extra card draw, but with the way Probe has been viewed and handled in Vintage it may be our only option soon enough." And so it is. This card is just as good as Probe as far as the math is concerned, but used to see less play simply because it doesn't exhibit the same knowledge potential as Probe, which means there's no outplay potential either. Now, with Probe gone it is our only option for free card draw.
Manamorphose - Effectively free draw and free storm with the added benefit of color fixing. Color fixing is generally not needed, but can be especially useful when doing extremely cool things with your wishboard. (For example: Burning Wish>Living Wish>Wurmcoil Engine)
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face. Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault.
The maindeck is so streamlined that the pilot is not at liberty to change it. Belcher, like other Storm decks, is heavily focused on the metagame when considering sideboarding options. Because it makes a very big difference to a Belcher player on what he should be sideboarding given that there are no Blue decks in the room or given that he is the only non-Blue deck in the room. This is different from other decks which have cards that are generally pretty good against a lot of decks in a given metagame. Not to say that other decks are not affected by their sideboarding choices, just that an incorrectly sideboarded Belcher player will certainly be punished. That is not always true of say, RUG Delver. The tricky part is balancing between sideboarding too lightly and getting blown out by what counters you, or sideboarding too heavily and disrupting the deck's synergy.
- Mandatory Sideboard Cards
These cards are the best Wish targets. They should see play in every Belcher deck. Xantid Swarm is obviously not a Wish target, but is a staple in every Land Grant Storm deck. It is simply too good against Blue decks.
Diminishing Returns - The best Wish target besides Empty the Warrens, and even then only barely. Allows the pilot to win with more more Goblins if in a good position, or to get a full hand if in a bad position. It's truly a "win more and lose less" card.
Goblin War Strike - Great for getting there through lots of blockers, or when attacking just isn't an option. It also gives use to Burning Wish after having already cast an Empty.
Xantid Swarm - One of the few sideboard cards that is usually a 4-of. This card is insane against Blue decks with little or no creature removal. It has to be countered, exhausting counterspells, which makes it great. Or it resolves and none of your spells can be countered, which is also great. This card is a win-win. Never play less than 3 unless there is no Blue.
- Viable Wishboard Cards
Hull Breach - Takes out Leyline of Sanctity and Pithing Needle at the same time! The mana cost makes it somewhat unpopular but it can be the best card in a meta with lots of Esper.
Reverent Silence - This destroys multiple Enchantments for free. The life-gain is completely inconsequential since this deck either deals 50 damage or swings for 18.
Cave-In - This is a slightly more flexible version (read: better) of the more popular Pyroclasm. Both of these cards have the same effect, but Cave-In is technically better. Since we play only 1-3 Lands at any given time, we will always have to rely on at least one Ritual to cast any Wishboard target. Say you're on turn 3, and you've dumped your hand to play some Goblins. They have plenty of blockers and now it's turn 5 and you still haven't won! Suppose you top deck Burning Wish and a Ritual. There's no way you could cast a Pyroclasm on this turn, but you could cast a Cave-In.
Pyroclasm - As I've already said, this card is technically worse. But one thing it does have going for it is that you can cast it even with a Gaddock Teeg in play.
Flame Slash - Kills most Goyfs or other random big guys. In recent times, it'll probably be killing less Goyfs and more Endless Ones.
Bribery - Great against decks that have one particular creature you might want, like Dredge.
Reanimate - This is somewhat-unexpected tech against Reanimator. You can target the recently Entombed Griselbrand, draw 14, and easily kill your opponent.
Telemin Performance - This is geat against decks that that play no creatures, like ANT. It can function as a wishable instant-win against other storm decks that might otherwise be able to kill you if you instead made Goblin tokens. So, for example, against TES rather than Wish for Empty, you could wish for Telemin Performance since TES is one of the few decks that can actually race us.
Infernal Tutor - A lot of people see the Infernal Tutor in the Sideboard of Belcher decks and think it's to increase the storm count, but actually it's to grab Belcher if you have 9BR and a Burning Wish. Because this is a guaranteed kill, which is always better than storming off for Goblins.
Past in Flames - Like Infernal Tutor, most people assume this just helps out with storm, which is true. But the reason it sees play is mainly if you're expecting a meta with lots of discard, since it allows you to go off when you have an Empty or Wish in your Graveyard.
- Viable Sideboard Cards
These are proper sideboard cards in the traditional since (i.e. not wish targets). The problem with these is that, more than likely, 9-11 of the cards in your Sideboard will be wish targets, so you really have to cut wish options or drop the Xantid Swarms to fit these cards in.
Carpet of Flowers - Great against Blue decks. The more Blue, the more mana you get. Carpet is essentially another Land Grant in-so-far as it allows us to play more effective Lands, while actually only playing 1 or 2.
Pyroblast - This is an aggressive choice for the pilots who like to bait and mindgame their opponents on the next level. If you plan on playing a longer game with lots of baiting, you will get out-classed in terms of initial mana just by virtue of playing only 1 Land, since it's sort of hard to float enough mana to bait a counter for Pyroblast, you almost have to side in Carpets with Pyroblast for these long games.
Forest - Never underestimate the power of a Basic Land. It used to be that you would only see Wasteland as a sideboard card in decks that could afford the generic mana, or I guess against MUD if you have an LGS like that, but now that Eldrazi are broken it's something we have to consider.
- Unviable Sideboard Cards
Note that all of these cards may not be good, or even advisable, to play; rather that they have been historically played, and are here for that reason. Unlike other decks, Belcher gets all of its variety not from the maindeck but from the sideboard. So I have included every card that I know of which has been successfully played in Belcher. I think this is important since Legacy is an eternal format. Things may always come back around to be useful once again.
For most sideboards one wants some combination of Carpets, Xantid Swarms, and Pyroblasts. Usually these will count for about 8-10 sideboard cards depending on how hateful the meta is currently being, then the rest of the available slots will be Wish targets. For example, Infernal Tutor is great as it serves as an instant win if you can get to 11 mana. However be weary of trying to play too many non-Red Wish targets, because mana fixing can get a bit out of hand at times.
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
This iteration of Belcher is dead because of the Gitaxian Probe ban.
The Epic Doomsday, commonly referred to as Recross the Paths Belcher, is another G/R Land Grant Storm deck, meaning it is very similar to Belcher. Though they are very similar, (non-Storm players may even say they are the same) they have different objectives. They are not the same deck. However the deck is not popular enough to have its own primer for discussion so its home is here. The deck has no competitive placements that I know of. That is not to say it's bad, just unrepresented. The closest analogue I can think of is the difference between Manaless Dredge and Dredge. Until Manaless Dredge was popular enough, it was considered a spin-off of Dredge. This is the same case with TED and Belcher.
Like every other Land Grant Storm deck, one wants to achieve one of two goals. The first and most straight-forward is to activate Belcher, obviously. The second option is to resolve a Recross the Paths. Because this decks plays no Lands, Recross allows the pilot to arrange the entirety of the deck in any way he sees fit.
This is the list I use and the one I think to be the best. I believe Act on Impulse is better than other options because it allows LED's to act exactly like Black Lotus. Grapeshot is included from the wishboard because, even though I think Act is better, it makes it harder to use initial mana sources. It draws fewer cards. In order for my list to play against common hate like Leyline of Sanctity or Gaddock Teeg it has to have a Grapeshot maindeck. The other inclusion I have over other lists is Chain of Vapor maindeck. The rationale is pretty clear to anyone that has played DDFT. It takes up only 1 spot and gives me so much game against a variety of things.
Other lists play Meditate, Ideas Unbound, Thirst for Knowledge, or Draw-Fours. The difference in using these cards is absolutely huge as far as pile construction goes. You will have to relearn every pile you know. If you want to see a different perspective of deck building than mine, check out Michael Augustine's article on constructing piles with his Meditate version.
Macroscopically there are two types of piles: piles that allow the pilot to win on the same turn he cast Recross, usually referred to simply as a pile, and a pile where the pilot must naturally draw the first 2 or 3 cards in the pile before storming off and killing the opponent, generally called pass-the-turn piles. As one might imagine, pass-the-turn piles are generally not favored because they are slower. They allow the opponent time to find an answer. Most piles have (a) prerequisite(s) that must be met for them to work. For example, one needs to have card-draw in hand and RR floating.
Due to the fact piles generally have a prerequisite, pile construction can vary widely from game to game. This is not a Blue deck. It is not Doomsday. The pilot cannot afford to make the same piles every single time because the pilot has no way to achieve a given prerequisite consistently. This deck doesn't play Brainstorm. So piles have to be constructed based on whatever is currently in-hand. Pile building should be done on-the-fly. It is better to learn why a pile works than to just memorise the order.
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
Any chance you could add stuff about the Recross the Paths version? There was some discussion of it on the last couple of pages on the old thread.
Yes. I will try to add information about that version. I often hear it called The Epic Doomsday because the nature of it involves crafting larger DDFT piles and killing with Tendrils. It's not exactly the same deck as Belcher, but it's close enough to be included in this primer (at least until more people are interested in playing it). I will work on a write-up for the deck. Thanks for making an account to post about it! Welcome.
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
The Recross version has about 55/60 cards in common with the stock lists of RG Belcher, so it isn't worth a separate thread imo, given that half the time you just make a regular Belcher-in-hand kill, simply without worrying about Land Grant issues.
There are a lot of piles you can make for the kill (Empty, Tendrils, Grapeshot, multiple Burning Wishes to beat hate cards), but most of the time you make a Belcher pile and stack an extra LED on top of you deck to be able go off the next turn as well (to beat Stifle etc).
If you haven't tried the deck out already I'd recommend picking the pieces up, especially if you have Blecher online, its a very cheap way to add another Legacy deck to your collection.
(Btw, have you got a link to your Modern Belcher list handy? Keen to give the deck a shot but all the recent ones on the primer seem a little all over the place.)
Cool thank you. I will include that link in the explanation. I am familiar with the deck. I play it sometimes for fun. I'm not good enough at piles to construct them to play against every possible situation in the moment, but I understand it conceptually and given time could do it. I like the idea of the deck a lot.
Here's a link to my current list. I'm not sure what a lot of the people in that thread are thinking, but it is developing Modern so I suppose I should expect bad ideas. Feel free to ask questions about my list in that thread or PM me!
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
Some, uh, interesting sideboard options, not really sure on the logic behind Garruk. It will eventually win the game against slower decks but surely if you can burning wish with the potential to float 2GGG there are probably better things to be doing.
The 3 LEDs could potentially be a budget issue, but I would think another Pyretic Ritual should come before maxing out on Chrome Mox.
Some, uh, interesting sideboard options, not really sure on the logic behind Garruk. It will eventually win the game against slower decks but surely if you can burning wish with the potential to float 2GGG there are probably better things to be doing.
Yes, it is not a good card at all. I can only assume it's an homage to Yurien Seyssel's SCG LA list. Apparently he forgot some cards from his Sideboard, and one of his friends had (among other things) a Garruk, Primal Hunter, so he used it.
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
sup guys! i just picked up some LEDs a few weeks ago and i'm having a hard time deciding between building this deck, or LED dredge. what do you think is better positioned?
sup guys! i just picked up some LEDs a few weeks ago and i'm having a hard time deciding between building this deck, or LED dredge. what do you think is better positioned?
I also have these two decks (just finished Belcher), and I think that Dredge is probably better-positioned simply because of how blue the meta is. It's a great pair, IMO, so you should eventually build both. Gameplay is totally different so you can keep it fresh by switching back and forth. Plus it keeps the players at your LGS guessing
sup guys! i just picked up some LEDs a few weeks ago and i'm having a hard time deciding between building this deck, or LED dredge. what do you think is better positioned?
I also have these two decks (just finished Belcher), and I think that Dredge is probably better-positioned simply because of how blue the meta is. It's a great pair, IMO, so you should eventually build both. Gameplay is totally different so you can keep it fresh by switching back and forth. Plus it keeps the players at your LGS guessing
I'd say build both. Dredge may be better positioned now, but eventually people you play with may adapt and pack more and more grave hate. Then you switch to Belcher.
Thanks lIlIllIlll for keeping Belcher alive !
- I'm curious to see under which circumstances is Red Elemental Blast a strictly worse version of Pyroblast.
Pyroblast can target a non-blue spell in order to increase storm count, Red Elemental Blast cannot. It is a corner case, but it does come up occasionally.
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Here are a few precisions I thought were lacking to the primer, hoping it'll be useful !
Card selection > Ritual :
- Playing or not playing Tinder Wall to be able to have free mana on your next turn depends on the deck you are facing and therefore on its ability to remove it.
This is true. I'll be sure to mention it. Good catch.
Sideboard > Mandatory Sideboard Cards :
- Diminishing Returns is quite of a strange card and should only be played under extreme circumstances. The problem is you're not even guaranteed to get a decent hand, and you can't mulligan it. For example, I'd cast it if I Gitaxian Probed into my opponent's hand to see they have a mass removal for my goblins, say Toxic Deluge, or on a poor storm count against an opponent I suspect has Batterskull or a fast lethal. The UU is a heavy restriction too, and that's an example of how a Belcher player has to think ahead when casting their Manamorphoses and/or cracking their Lion's Eye Diamonds. To be honest, pages and pages could be written about this card - after having played a lot of games with Belcher, I'm still undecided on whether this card is actually good or not.
- Goblin War Strike is also useful when you find yourself having an extra Burning Wish after you casted an Empty the Warrens.
I feel very strongly about Diminishing Returns, and almost always wish for it if I don't have 4+ storm. It rarely hurts me to play it. I usually get another Burning Wish or Empty and win with lots of Goblins.
Goblin War Strike is amazing and has won me plenty of situations I shouldn't have been able to win from. It's wholesomely underrated against Batterskull.
Pyroblast can target a non-blue spell in order to increase storm count, Red Elemental Blast cannot. It is a corner case, but it does come up occasionally.
I would say it's strictly worse for this reason. I've played Pyroblast targeting Lands plenty of times.
- The point in playing Telemin Performance is not the density of cards you're willing to have in the enemy's deck, in which case Bribery will always be better. Telemin Performance gives you a free win against deck that have no creature by milling them out (e.g. Lands and Storm).
Perhaps this is dependent on perspective, but I see what you're saying and will address the ambiguity. I probably didn't say what I meant.
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
I have followed you here from the Modern Forest Belcher Primer! Haha!
Anyways, I have a LEDless list of this one for now (for budgetary reasons; I'm already planning to get those LEDs when eventually, due to Eternal Masters, price almost doubled ). I do have Burning Wish. My question is that, can you give me an idea on which should I run in lieu of Lion's Eye Diamond? Or, should I go away from Burning Wish and just go with the budget version you listed (with Street Wraith)?
First, very nice primer here! I'm the Guy you cited about the paper 'Belcher in Legacy: What Should We Expect of This Deck?'. I want to thank you about Your feedback and the interest you had in reading it. I have spotted some english error (not my native language) and I would like to improve the study but I'm really lacking of time.
Just a little remark about the SB discussion beetween cave-in and clasm. The latter can be cast under gaddock teeg which is the best bear againt us so I won't leave my house without clasm in the board.
Another tip that is not explicitly written I guess : G2 againt U deck you bring in xanthid and carpet OK but please SB out all the seething song. First it's a counter me card = you almost lose if it's countered and the carpet alone give you +0/+2 mana compared to seething songs.
Final thing : for interactives games always have 1 pasr in flames SB. First it can create dumb cases with empty the warrens but can allow you to recover from discard which is really great against belcher.
Edit : my paper has been slightly cleaned up (still available here)
Thanks for the reply. I'm legitimately glad you're here! I appreciate the input. I touched on the use of Past in Flames, but I think I'll highlight the importance of it since you brought it up. I also need to discuss Gaddock Teeg and attempts to fight prison-hate in general. That's something I need to address, but I would like more input from other pilots on it before adding it to the primer.
As for your paper: I would be honored to help you with it if you would allow me to. I can help translate. I speak a little bit of German, know C, and am a math major, so we could probably communicate pretty well.
I have followed you here from the Modern Forest Belcher Primer! Haha!
Anyways, I have a LEDless list of this one for now (for budgetary reasons; I'm already planning to get those LEDs when eventually, due to Eternal Masters, price almost doubled ). I do have Burning Wish. My question is that, can you give me an idea on which should I run in lieu of Lion's Eye Diamond? Or, should I go away from Burning Wish and just go with the budget version you listed (with Street Wraith)?
Thanks for the post! Personally (and I think other Belcher pilots would agree) I believe that playing Burning Wish without Lion's Eye Diamond is just too hard. I would play Street Wraith. And it makes sense, even if you don't think about it too much. The only card that makes LED good is Burning Wish, because you activate it in response to the Wish, so that you get your card and your mana. That is literally the only reason the card sees play in this deck, or any other Storm deck for that matter. The only other case I can imagine, is that LED is a really good card against Sneak 'n Show. You play LED. Pass the turn, and sit around with a Belcher in hand waiting for them to play Show and Tell. As soon as you get priority after it resolves, win with a Belcher activation. But other than that weird interaction, there's absolutely no advantage to playing LED.
So, LED without Burning Wish is bad. But is the converse true? (Which is what you're asking.) In my opinion: yeah. It probably is. I have 2 reasons why, but my rationale is a little stilted, I'll admit.
Belcher is a very meta dependent deck. You can definitely take games off of a matchup that you shouldn't be able to! Don't get me wrong. I do it all the time. But you have to accept the (almost) fact that if there are a ton of control decks, you're going to do poorly; if there are a lot of combo decks, you're going to do well; and if there are a lot of aggro decks, you're going to go undefeated. The deck is mostly meta dependent, i.e. the match may be settled before it starts.
As I've already mentioned, LED is really not a very inspiring card by itself. The mana it generates is useless, except for when casting a Burning Wish. When the pilot is able to cast a Burning Wish though, it's insane. Being able to play a Seething Song, have RRRRR floating, wish for a card, and gain mana from it, is insane. It's the only reason that Burning Wish works as well as it does. In my opinion it is not worth playing a wishboard without LED. A lot of the great silver bullets become unplayable. And the silver bullets are the one of the main reasons we're playing LED's in the first place. Past in Flames becomes way hard to cast; Diminishing Returns becomes almost unplayable; same for Tendrils. I'm not saying they're uncastable, but you're putting too much stress on your game by trying to prefilter with Manamorphose and then hoping your Wish doesn't get countered. It's too hard to generate mana. There aren't many spells that do it. We play most of them. We're doing it for free. We can't afford to be mana inefficient.
Now I'm going to counter-argue what I just said, because it's kind of controversial. I said that LED is bad without Burning Wish. "Well, if that's true, why do even Wishless Belcher builds play them, and why did Trall not cover the analysis of a single deck without LED?" Well. To be honest, I don't know. I would imagine that it's because LED is free. I mean at its absolute worst, it's +1 storm. But you could be playing a Mishra's Bauble for exactly the same effect! LED isn't special in being free, but in a Wishless build it's both free, and can sometimes activate Belcher. That's why it's seeing play. Is that particularly important? In my opinion no. Having +1 storm is important, but it isn't going to turn your poor play into a good one. A good pilot can still take easy games with an unoptimised list. That's why I say to play Street Wraiths in lieu of LED's.
I also said Belcher is meta dependent. That's true. But again, if you're a good pilot it really doesn't matter. Burning Wish gives you massive outplay potential. But that isn't what we're talking about here. We're discussing whether it's cost efficient without LED. In my opinion it's not.
As for your question about the RtP version, actually yes-and-no. It isn't LED dependent, depending on how you construct the deck. The one I have on the Primer requires multiple ones, because it kills quicker. But technically you only need 1 LED to make the deck work because that's ultimately all you need for things like Cruel Bargain online. You would just have to build a slower version that passed the turn and used Ideas Unbound as a draw engine instead of Act on Impulse. I'm not exactly sure what that would look like, but I'll think about it for you.
I hope that answers your questions a little. I also hope someone else responds to disagree with me. Good discussion makes great pilots.
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
First, very nice primer here! I'm the Guy you cited about the paper 'Belcher in Legacy: What Should We Expect of This Deck?'. I want to thank you about Your feedback and the interest you had in reading it. I have spotted some english error (not my native language) and I would like to improve the study but I'm really lacking of time.
Just a little remark about the SB discussion beetween cave-in and clasm. The latter can be cast under gaddock teeg which is the best bear againt us so I won't leave my house without clasm in the board.
Another tip that is not explicitly written I guess : G2 againt U deck you bring in xanthid and carpet OK but please SB out all the seething song. First it's a counter me card = you almost lose if it's countered and the carpet alone give you +0/+2 mana compared to seething songs.
Final thing : for interactives games always have 1 pasr in flames SB. First it can create dumb cases with empty the warrens but can allow you to recover from discard which is really great against belcher.
Edit : my paper has been slightly cleaned up (still available here)
Thanks for the reply. I'm legitimately glad you're here! I appreciate the input. I touched on the use of Past in Flames, but I think I'll highlight the importance of it since you brought it up. I also need to discuss Gaddock Teeg and attempts to fight prison-hate in general. That's something I need to address, but I would like more input from other pilots on it before adding it to the primer.
As for your paper: I would be honored to help you with it if you would allow me to. I can help translate. I speak a little bit of German, know C, and am a math major, so we could probably communicate pretty well.
I have followed you here from the Modern Forest Belcher Primer! Haha!
Anyways, I have a LEDless list of this one for now (for budgetary reasons; I'm already planning to get those LEDs when eventually, due to Eternal Masters, price almost doubled ). I do have Burning Wish. My question is that, can you give me an idea on which should I run in lieu of Lion's Eye Diamond? Or, should I go away from Burning Wish and just go with the budget version you listed (with Street Wraith)?
Thanks for the post! Personally (and I think other Belcher pilots would agree) I believe that playing Burning Wish without Lion's Eye Diamond is just too hard. I would play Street Wraith. And it makes sense, even if you don't think about it too much. The only card that makes LED good is Burning Wish, because you activate it in response to the Wish, so that you get your card and your mana. That is literally the only reason the card sees play in this deck, or any other Storm deck for that matter. The only other case I can imagine, is that LED is a really good card against Sneak 'n Show. You play LED. Pass the turn, and sit around with a Belcher in hand waiting for them to play Show and Tell. As soon as you get priority after it resolves, win with a Belcher activation. But other than that weird interaction, there's absolutely no advantage to playing LED.
So, LED without Burning Wish is bad. But is the converse true? (Which is what you're asking.) In my opinion: yeah. It probably is. I have 2 reasons why, but my rationale is a little stilted, I'll admit.
Belcher is a very meta dependent deck. You can definitely take games off of a matchup that you shouldn't be able to! Don't get me wrong. I do it all the time. But you have to accept the (almost) fact that if there are a ton of control decks, you're going to do poorly; if there are a lot of combo decks, you're going to do well; and if there are a lot of aggro decks, you're going to go undefeated. The deck is mostly meta dependent, i.e. the match may be settled before it starts.
As I've already mentioned, LED is really not a very inspiring card by itself. The mana it generates is useless, except for when casting a Burning Wish. When the pilot is able to cast a Burning Wish though, it's insane. Being able to play a Seething Song, have RRRRR floating, wish for a card, and gain mana from it, is insane. It's the only reason that Burning Wish works as well as it does. In my opinion it is not worth playing a wishboard without LED. A lot of the great silver bullets become unplayable. And the silver bullets are the one of the main reasons we're playing LED's in the first place. Past in Flames becomes way hard to cast; Diminishing Returns becomes almost unplayable; same for Tendrils. I'm not saying they're uncastable, but you're putting too much stress on your game by trying to prefilter with Manamorphose and then hoping your Wish doesn't get countered. It's too hard to generate mana. There aren't many spells that do it. We play most of them. We're doing it for free. We can't afford to be mana inefficient.
Now I'm going to counter-argue what I just said, because it's kind of controversial. I said that LED is bad without Burning Wish. "Well, if that's true, why do even Wishless Belcher builds play them, and why did Trall not cover the analysis of a single deck without LED?" Well. To be honest, I don't know. I would imagine that it's because LED is free. I mean at its absolute worst, it's +1 storm. But you could be playing a Mishra's Bauble for exactly the same effect! LED isn't special in being free, but in a Wishless build it's both free, and can sometimes activate Belcher. That's why it's seeing play. Is that particularly important? In my opinion no. Having +1 storm is important, but it isn't going to turn your poor play into a good one. A good pilot can still take easy games with an unoptimised list. That's why I say to play Street Wraiths in lieu of LED's.
I also said Belcher is meta dependent. That's true. But again, if you're a good pilot it really doesn't matter. Burning Wish gives you massive outplay potential. But that isn't what we're talking about here. We're discussing whether it's cost efficient without LED. In my opinion it's not.
As for your question about the RtP version, actually yes-and-no. It isn't LED dependent, depending on how you construct the deck. The one I have on the Primer requires multiple ones, because it kills quicker. But technically you only need 1 LED to make the deck work because that's ultimately all you need for things like Cruel Bargain online. You would just have to build a slower version that passed the turn and used Ideas Unbound as a draw engine instead of Act on Impulse. I'm not exactly sure what that would look like, but I'll think about it for you.
I hope that answers your questions a little. I also hope someone else responds to disagree with me. Good discussion makes great pilots.
Thanks for the concise response! Actually, I have tournament experience with the Wishless, LEDless Belcher, as well as the list I posted. I could say that, very few times did I attempt to pull off Tendrils of Agony from the Wishboard, but I did win games via Goblin War Strike. But I do like the argument of having virtually a 48-deck Belcher(4 Street Wraiths, 4 Gitaxian Probes, 4 Manamorphoses). Easier to pilot given I don't have LED, but a bit more hard post-board I believe.
On another note, what do you think of being Jund without LEDs? I mean, adding Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, and maybe, Dark Petition? (I'll be updating the post later to include a sample list).
First, very nice primer here! I'm the Guy you cited about the paper 'Belcher in Legacy: What Should We Expect of This Deck?'. I want to thank you about Your feedback and the interest you had in reading it. I have spotted some english error (not my native language) and I would like to improve the study but I'm really lacking of time.
Just a little remark about the SB discussion beetween cave-in and clasm. The latter can be cast under gaddock teeg which is the best bear againt us so I won't leave my house without clasm in the board.
Another tip that is not explicitly written I guess : G2 againt U deck you bring in xanthid and carpet OK but please SB out all the seething song. First it's a counter me card = you almost lose if it's countered and the carpet alone give you +0/+2 mana compared to seething songs.
Final thing : for interactives games always have 1 pasr in flames SB. First it can create dumb cases with empty the warrens but can allow you to recover from discard which is really great against belcher.
Edit : my paper has been slightly cleaned up (still available here)
Thanks for the reply. I'm legitimately glad you're here! I appreciate the input. I touched on the use of Past in Flames, but I think I'll highlight the importance of it since you brought it up. I also need to discuss Gaddock Teeg and attempts to fight prison-hate in general. That's something I need to address, but I would like more input from other pilots on it before adding it to the primer.
As for your paper: I would be honored to help you with it if you would allow me to. I can help translate. I speak a little bit of German, know C, and am a math major, so we could probably communicate pretty well.
I have followed you here from the Modern Forest Belcher Primer! Haha!
Anyways, I have a LEDless list of this one for now (for budgetary reasons; I'm already planning to get those LEDs when eventually, due to Eternal Masters, price almost doubled ). I do have Burning Wish. My question is that, can you give me an idea on which should I run in lieu of Lion's Eye Diamond? Or, should I go away from Burning Wish and just go with the budget version you listed (with Street Wraith)?
Thanks for the post! Personally (and I think other Belcher pilots would agree) I believe that playing Burning Wish without Lion's Eye Diamond is just too hard. I would play Street Wraith. And it makes sense, even if you don't think about it too much. The only card that makes LED good is Burning Wish, because you activate it in response to the Wish, so that you get your card and your mana. That is literally the only reason the card sees play in this deck, or any other Storm deck for that matter. The only other case I can imagine, is that LED is a really good card against Sneak 'n Show. You play LED. Pass the turn, and sit around with a Belcher in hand waiting for them to play Show and Tell. As soon as you get priority after it resolves, win with a Belcher activation. But other than that weird interaction, there's absolutely no advantage to playing LED.
So, LED without Burning Wish is bad. But is the converse true? (Which is what you're asking.) In my opinion: yeah. It probably is. I have 2 reasons why, but my rationale is a little stilted, I'll admit.
Belcher is a very meta dependent deck. You can definitely take games off of a matchup that you shouldn't be able to! Don't get me wrong. I do it all the time. But you have to accept the (almost) fact that if there are a ton of control decks, you're going to do poorly; if there are a lot of combo decks, you're going to do well; and if there are a lot of aggro decks, you're going to go undefeated. The deck is mostly meta dependent, i.e. the match may be settled before it starts.
As I've already mentioned, LED is really not a very inspiring card by itself. The mana it generates is useless, except for when casting a Burning Wish. When the pilot is able to cast a Burning Wish though, it's insane. Being able to play a Seething Song, have RRRRR floating, wish for a card, and gain mana from it, is insane. It's the only reason that Burning Wish works as well as it does. In my opinion it is not worth playing a wishboard without LED. A lot of the great silver bullets become unplayable. And the silver bullets are the one of the main reasons we're playing LED's in the first place. Past in Flames becomes way hard to cast; Diminishing Returns becomes almost unplayable; same for Tendrils. I'm not saying they're uncastable, but you're putting too much stress on your game by trying to prefilter with Manamorphose and then hoping your Wish doesn't get countered. It's too hard to generate mana. There aren't many spells that do it. We play most of them. We're doing it for free. We can't afford to be mana inefficient.
Now I'm going to counter-argue what I just said, because it's kind of controversial. I said that LED is bad without Burning Wish. "Well, if that's true, why do even Wishless Belcher builds play them, and why did Trall not cover the analysis of a single deck without LED?" Well. To be honest, I don't know. I would imagine that it's because LED is free. I mean at its absolute worst, it's +1 storm. But you could be playing a Mishra's Bauble for exactly the same effect! LED isn't special in being free, but in a Wishless build it's both free, and can sometimes activate Belcher. That's why it's seeing play. Is that particularly important? In my opinion no. Having +1 storm is important, but it isn't going to turn your poor play into a good one. A good pilot can still take easy games with an unoptimised list. That's why I say to play Street Wraiths in lieu of LED's.
I also said Belcher is meta dependent. That's true. But again, if you're a good pilot it really doesn't matter. Burning Wish gives you massive outplay potential. But that isn't what we're talking about here. We're discussing whether it's cost efficient without LED. In my opinion it's not.
As for your question about the RtP version, actually yes-and-no. It isn't LED dependent, depending on how you construct the deck. The one I have on the Primer requires multiple ones, because it kills quicker. But technically you only need 1 LED to make the deck work because that's ultimately all you need for things like Cruel Bargain online. You would just have to build a slower version that passed the turn and used Ideas Unbound as a draw engine instead of Act on Impulse. I'm not exactly sure what that would look like, but I'll think about it for you.
I hope that answers your questions a little. I also hope someone else responds to disagree with me. Good discussion makes great pilots.
Thanks for the concise response! Actually, I have tournament experience with the Wishless, LEDless Belcher, as well as the list I posted. I could say that, very few times did I attempt to pull off Tendrils of Agony from the Wishboard, but I did win games via Goblin War Strike. But I do like the argument of having virtually a 48-deck Belcher(4 Street Wraiths, 4 Gitaxian Probes, 4 Manamorphoses). Easier to pilot given I don't have LED, but a bit more hard post-board I believe.
On another note, what do you think of being Jund without LEDs? I mean, adding Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, and maybe, Dark Petition? (I'll be updating the post later to include a sample list).
Having a 48-card Belcher sure seems cool in terms of mere probabilities. I do find Lili's answer a bit confusing because it might let you think LED isn't vital. This is false. LED is vital. LED activates Belcher, gives you basically a Black Lotus when coupled with Burning Wish, it's bread and butter and is the best card in Legacy at doing what it does : 3 mana for 0.
For what you call "being Jund", Belcher actually used to be Jund... a long time ago. It then used to be called "2-land Belcher" and was playing Bayou + Taiga... which drastically increases the probability of firing off a nonlethal Belcher. It also forces you more or less to play 4 Chrome Moxen because there is no such card as Simian Spirit Guide or Elvish Spirit Guide for black ; which means that having access to the first B can be quite tricky.
If you're interested in "Dark Belcher", a more recent list went Day 1 undefeated in GP Kyoto 2015, piloted by Ryuichi Shirakihara -> link. This plays Street Wraith and sideboards Duresses. I think this was a solid choice in the DTT meta - but is it still the case ?
I do believe LED is vital to the deck. What I understand he is saying is that, Belcher can be played without it, but of course it is less optimal (I strongly believe especially in the Recross Belcher build that it is very vital).
Yeah, the first iteration of this primer did mention the 2-land Belcher. I might test it just because I don't have LEDs. Of course if I do have those, I'll go with the optimal, basic Wish Belcher list.
I saw the GP Kyoto list, and it is quite interesting. Seems like post-board it sacrifices speed for disruption (especially against Force of Will decks). Though it still runs LEDs, it gives me some sort of idea on how to approach the build LEDless.
Sorry to be confusing. I suppose what I mean to say, precisely, is this:
LED and Wish is fine.
LED and not Wish is fine.
Not LED and not Wish is fine.
Not LED and Wish is not fine.
I am not saying LED is not worth playing, but I am saying if you do not have LED, you should not play Wish, or at least not a full Wishboard. The only thing you can reliably cast is Empty and War Strike.
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
Sorry to be confusing. I suppose what I mean to say, precisely, is this:
LED and Wish is fine.
LED and not Wish is fine.
Not LED and not Wish is fine.
Not LED and Wish is not fine.
I am not saying LED is not worth playing, but I am saying if you do not have LED, you should not play Wish, or at least not a full Wishboard. The only thing you can reliably cast is Empty and War Strike.
With that note, I somewhat agree. Having virtually 7 copies of Empty the Warrens main did somewhat help me during my play with LEDless. True, the fizzle rate zooms up once LED is factored out of the equation.
I was thinking about Jund for budget. Jund definitely isn't optimal, but since you already aren't playing an optimal list I see no reason to not have fun with it! (Though I still think the Budget Belcher list in the Primer is better than this.)
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
Thanks for the sample list! I'll be testing the Jund one with Wish. Looks promising as it is, but will also try sneaking some Street Wraith there for some possibility of producing B via Chrome Mox.
I have a strange idea that I would like some of the more seasoned players to try out. The reason why I am asking others to try this instead of myself, is that I am not very popular with the others at my LGS. As a result of this, I don't have anyone to playtest this idea. I will try to get as much testing as possible, but the more people who can help me test, the better.
The idea is as follows:
Game 1, play "budget" Belcher. Why budget? We have a transitional sideboard, which transitions into Sneak Attack. This means that we have no Burning Wish gameplan, and we also do not want LED in the deck. I propose this decklist as a starting point:
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Street Wraith
4 Seething Song (normally Lion's Eye Diamond, but we normally use LED to activate Belcher, whereas we cannot use it to activate Sneak Attack)
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Manamorphose
4 Land Grant
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lotus Petal
3 Serum Powder (normally this is Chrome Mox, but because we want to look for possible t1 kill so opponent thinks we're playing Belcher, but then we sb into Sneak Attack and make them sb incorrectly.)
1 Taiga
SB:
4 Sneak Attack
3 Through the Breach
4 Worldspine Wurm
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (However, I think this should be a different creature, since we want to kill with either the swing, or the tokens that are left after. Worldspine leaves 15 power, while Emrakul does not kill the opponent. We "blow the payload" with Emrakul and then we're done. If we were always on the play, I would suggest Blightsteel Colossus, but if they play turn 1 creature, then we probably don't kill them.)
Sideboard transition:
Remove 15 cards, add 15 cards, to throw our opponents off and have them sideboard incorrectly against us. We side out Charbelcher and Empty the Warrens, but we need to figure out the other 7 cards to remove.
I just want to give a shout out to Brian Guess for placing Top 8 at SCG ATL. Good for him, but I'm also a little pissed. Unfortunately I couldn't make my way down there to be in it with him. It looks like the metagame was really good for Belcher this year. (Last year it wasn't.) I would have liked very much to watch him play in person.
I'm really happy to see Eldrazi becoming a thing. They have no access to Force and their only other types of consistent interaction are Wasteland and Chalice. The former is easily remedied by having a Forest in the Sideboard; the latter can be beaten easily by just having a mathematically strong deck (i.e. by staying fast and consistent) as a Chalice on 0, or even 1 to be honest, doesn't hurt that badly.
The matchup is not free though. Some lists Sideboard Warping Wail which is amazingly annoying to play against, but we also have Sideboard cards to handle it. Another thing to be mindful of is Thorn Amethyst. I'm pretty sure I've only won a single game with an Amethyst in play.
All-in-all though, I'm happy for the success of Eldrazi.
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
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Table of Contents
I. Introduction
II. Card Selection
i. Maindeck
ii. Sideboard
III. Sample Decklists
IV. Tournament Placements
V. Documents of Special Interest
Disclaimer: There now exists several Land Grant Storm decks in the game that could be called "Belcher", including but not limited to: Summoner's Pact Spanish Inquisition, The Epic Doomsday, and Saint. This primer is not about any of those decks, but is about the G/R Belcher deck. In fairness, this deck should really be called Empty the Warrens Storm, but the name Belcher has sort of stuck, even though there are more than a few decks that play the namesake.
I. Introduction
If there were a go-to deck that one could use to claim Legacy is a turn-1 format, it would be Belcher. This deck's entire gameplan revolves around the first 3 turns, with the goal being to kill the opponent as quickly as possible. The proficient Belcher pilot does not like opponents, he likes spectators.
There are two main types of G/R Belcher decks: Wishless Belcher, which doesn't play Burning Wish and instead uses cyclers like Street Wraith to thin the deck, and vanilla Belcher which plays a Burning Wish package. These decks look similar, and subsequently, play similarly. Belcher is a Land Grant Storm deck whose goal is to make approximately 12-20 goblins through Empty the Warrens or win the game outright by turning over the pilot's entire Library via a Goblin Charbelcher. There are also older Belcher lists that play Black, because they lacked all of the great Red rituals way back in the days of yore. Those decks will also not be discussed in this primer. This primer is concerned with the current iteration of the deck.
There are some things a person must accept before attempting to seriously pilot this deck. Perhaps the most important is admitting to oneself that he is not playing Magic. Recognise that luck is the residue of design. This deck does not even pretend to want to play Magic. Playing this deck is playing a game of math—a game of probability statistics to speak more accurately. Legacy is the format of consistency, and Belcher takes this to the extreme. The other important thing a person requires to play this deck in tournament play is a healthy dose of self-reflection. If the thought of showing up to a tournament and beating some super serious players who have "good" decks, nice foils, and expensive lands with a heavily optimised a pile of trash so well-worn it's barely legal to play doesn't put a smile on your face, then this deck is also not for you.
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II. Card Selection
For whatever reason, people still like to argue about using cards like Chancellor of the Annex, Chancellor of the Tangle, or even Serum Powder in this deck. I have no idea why. Because Belcher is such a linear deck, it has been calculated to hell; yet, some people still swear that these cards are "like really great guys just try it out". Trall over at The Source has an excellent study about card selection that for some reason has gone largely unnoticed. That, or people prefer their guts over math. Whatever the reason: the fact that 99% of the Belcher decks that have done well in tournament play use nearly the same shell the math indicates is best says something about Trall's work.
For that reason, I really do not think maindeck card selection options need to be addressed currently. That's subject to change in the future; Belcher may get some insane card that is able to make it into the maindeck, but for now that's yet to happen. With that in mind, only the good cards will be covered.
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i. Maindeck
Empty the Warrens - Despite the name, this is the real win condition of the deck. This is a card that will win against every fair deck, and even most unfair decks. Due to Burning Wish, you'll be winning with this card most often. Even if you aren't able to do anything other than dump your entire hand and cast it turn 2 for 10-or-so Goblins, most decks won't be able to handle 10 damage Turn 3.
Burning Wish - This card is a staple in most Storm decks because, as per this ruling: In a sanctioned event, a card that’s “outside the game” is one that’s in your sideboard., it functions as a wildcard of up to 15 different cards. Generally it functions as Empty the Warrens, but it will often be used as removal to clear the way for a win condition.
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Initial Mana Sources
Land Grant - This is arguably the single card that makes the deck work. It allows you to play 5 lands in theory and only 1 in practice. For added value after it grabs your Taiga it can still be imprinted on Chrome Mox or be revealed to give free storm. Be aware that revealing your hand is a casting cost so you can't wait for Land Grant to resolve then show your hand. You must show your hand when it goes onto the stack (or, I guess technically before that even). Keep that in mind before you reveal your strategy.
Chrome Mox - The worst permanent mana source because it requires us to pitch a card to it. It does get better post-board because games tend to be slower, and it's the only recurring mana source besides the Taiga or the occasional Forest. It's also worth noting that you do not have to name the Imprint until after it resolves.
Elvish Spirit Guide/Simian Spirit Guide - Every single card in this deck is 100% necessary, however if I had to chose the "weakest" it would probably be the Spirit Guides. In a lot of ways these cards are only fodder for Chrome Mox, but free mana is hard to compete with in terms of value.
Lotus Petal - This is a truly great card. It's restricted in Vintage and a staple in every Storm deck. It provides free mana, free storm, and color correction.
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Rituals
Pyretic Ritual - Technically worse than Desperate Ritual, but it's basically the same and nets you R and +1 storm.
Lion's Eye Diamond - Obviously this isn't a ritual, but plays a lot like one since it cannot be played as an initial mana source like all the other Artifacts in this deck because of its additional cost. Its uses are pretty much limited to activating Belcher, and creating mana after casting a Burning Wish. Occasionally, if you are all in, you may want to activate it after casting a Gitaxian Probe, or do some tricks with Infernal Tutor, but these are purely situational. This card is played mostly for its situational uses and its strength after Wishing. Excluding those it's really just free storm. Don't forget to hold priority after casting Burning Wish.
Rite of Flame - Yet another +R / +1 storm except this card gets really broken really fast when you have more than one. It practically has its own built-in Pyromancer Ascension.
Seething Song - This is consistently the best ritual because it always nets RR, but the major downside is its mana cost since it generally can't be cast first in your ritual chain.
Tinder Wall - This is a ritual in the same way LED. It is also possibly one of the most under-rated cards in the deck among non-pilots. This card is deceptively important since it filters mana from ESGs and even nets R mana whilst doing it! It has the added benefit of being able to block in slower games, but becomes less useful in matchups that can easily remove it. Note though that, like Lion's Eye Diamond, it should not be played like a ritual. If you have a mana-source in play, and a Tinder Wall in hand with nothing to do, then play your Tinder Wall. Next turn it'll be free RR. Losing 1 storm is inconsequential compared to having free mana.
-
Cantrips
Manamorphose - Effectively free draw and free storm with the added benefit of color fixing. Color fixing is generally not needed, but can be especially useful when doing extremely cool things with your wishboard. (For example: Burning Wish>Living Wish>Wurmcoil Engine)
-
i. Sideboard
-
Mandatory Sideboard Cards
These cards are the best Wish targets. They should see play in every Belcher deck. Xantid Swarm is obviously not a Wish target, but is a staple in every Land Grant Storm deck. It is simply too good against Blue decks.
Empty the Warrens - Obvious inclusion. Allows Burning Wishes to function as win conditions.
Goblin War Strike - Great for getting there through lots of blockers, or when attacking just isn't an option. It also gives use to Burning Wish after having already cast an Empty.
Xantid Swarm - One of the few sideboard cards that is usually a 4-of. This card is insane against Blue decks with little or no creature removal. It has to be countered, exhausting counterspells, which makes it great. Or it resolves and none of your spells can be countered, which is also great. This card is a win-win. Never play less than 3 unless there is no Blue.
-
Viable Wishboard Cards
Cave-In - This is a slightly more flexible version (read: better) of the more popular Pyroclasm. Both of these cards have the same effect, but Cave-In is technically better. Since we play only 1-3 Lands at any given time, we will always have to rely on at least one Ritual to cast any Wishboard target. Say you're on turn 3, and you've dumped your hand to play some Goblins. They have plenty of blockers and now it's turn 5 and you still haven't won! Suppose you top deck Burning Wish and a Ritual. There's no way you could cast a Pyroclasm on this turn, but you could cast a Cave-In.
Pyroclasm - As I've already said, this card is technically worse. But one thing it does have going for it is that you can cast it even with a Gaddock Teeg in play.
Shattering Spree - A great way to destroy 1 Artifact, or 10.
Flame Slash - Kills most Goyfs or other random big guys. In recent times, it'll probably be killing less Goyfs and more Endless Ones.
Bribery - Great against decks that have one particular creature you might want, like Dredge.
Telemin Performance - This is geat against decks that that play no creatures, like ANT. It can function as a wishable instant-win against other storm decks that might otherwise be able to kill you if you instead made Goblin tokens. So, for example, against TES rather than Wish for Empty, you could wish for Telemin Performance since TES is one of the few decks that can actually race us.
Infernal Tutor - A lot of people see the Infernal Tutor in the Sideboard of Belcher decks and think it's to increase the storm count, but actually it's to grab Belcher if you have 9BR and a Burning Wish. Because this is a guaranteed kill, which is always better than storming off for Goblins.
Past in Flames - Like Infernal Tutor, most people assume this just helps out with storm, which is true. But the reason it sees play is mainly if you're expecting a meta with lots of discard, since it allows you to go off when you have an Empty or Wish in your Graveyard.
-
Viable Sideboard Cards
These are proper sideboard cards in the traditional since (i.e. not wish targets). The problem with these is that, more than likely, 9-11 of the cards in your Sideboard will be wish targets, so you really have to cut wish options or drop the Xantid Swarms to fit these cards in.
Forest - Never underestimate the power of a Basic Land. It used to be that you would only see Wasteland as a sideboard card in decks that could afford the generic mana, or I guess against MUD if you have an LGS like that, but now that Eldrazi are broken it's something we have to consider.
-
Unviable Sideboard Cards
Note that all of these cards may not be good, or even advisable, to play; rather that they have been historically played, and are here for that reason. Unlike other decks, Belcher gets all of its variety not from the maindeck but from the sideboard. So I have included every card that I know of which has been successfully played in Belcher. I think this is important since Legacy is an eternal format. Things may always come back around to be useful once again.
Artifact and/or Enchantment Hate
Oxidize
Counterspell HateRevoke Existence
Simplify
Autumn's Veil
Creature HateGuttural Response
Overmaster
Red Elemental Blast
Deathmark
Creature InteractionDread of Night
Traitorous Blood
Alternative Draw EnginesMirri's Guile
Alternative Mana SourcesReforge the Soul
Time Spiral
Eladamri's Vineyard
Alternative Win ConditionsIgnite Memories
Living Wish
Tendrils of Agony
For most sideboards one wants some combination of Carpets, Xantid Swarms, and Pyroblasts. Usually these will count for about 8-10 sideboard cards depending on how hateful the meta is currently being, then the rest of the available slots will be Wish targets. For example, Infernal Tutor is great as it serves as an instant win if you can get to 11 mana. However be weary of trying to play too many non-Red Wish targets, because mana fixing can get a bit out of hand at times.
-
III. Sample Decklists
1 Taiga
Creatures
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
4 Tinder Wall
Instants and Sorceries
4 Burning Wish
4 Desperate Ritual
2 Empty the Warrens
4 Land Grant
4 Manamorphose
2 Pyretic Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
3 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Cave-In
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Infernal Tutor
2 Pyroblast
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
4 Xantid Swarm
-
IV. Tournament Placements
5th Tim Rogait - German Legacy Open 2007 (175 players)
3rd Tsuda Yuugo - Ancient Memory Convention (51 players)
2010
3rd Hiroki Okano - Worlds Saturday Legacy
4th Yasunori Kadoi - Worlds Sunday Legacy
7th Niko Leporati - Bondeno Games (83 players)
2nd Luca Poggesi - Bondeno Games (83 players)
2011
2nd Eph Valenzuela - Pinas Sarap, Manila (79 players)
8th Resley Olchondra - PHILCOA 15K (54 players)
7th Ben Perry - Knight Ware Inc. (59 players)
8th Ben Perry - SCG Los Angeles (216 players)
1st Poggesi Luca - Dragonsleague/Tarmogeddon, Padova (125 players)
4th Andrea Morandi - Goblin Bologna Legacy League 8 (68 players)
6th Bachiorri Lorenzo - Goblin Bologna Legacy League 9 (82 players)
3rd Antonio Domínguez - II Open de Legacy MTG Cantabria (76 players)
7-0 Christian Valenti - SCG Invitational Charlotte (316 players)
2012
8th Kalle Sundberg - Finnish Legacy Champs 2011 (99 players)
6th Jonas Löb - Legacy Event in Maintal (127 players)
7th Gerardo Fedon - GP Atlanta (905 players)
4th Joshua Wiitanen - SCG Las Vegas (223 players)
6th Adam Ericksen - Knight Ware Inc. (69 players)
2nd Branson Mitchell - SCG Denver (142 players)
4th David Soriano - 9º torneo Lliga Catalana, Barcelona (128 players)
7th Giacomo Mattarozzi - Goblin Bologna Legacy League Tappa 2
5th Brian Guess - SCG New Orleans (91 players)
8th Felix March - Magickeller Hannover (54 players)
2013
6th Ben Perry - SCG Columbus (325 players)
2nd Griffin Hansen - SCG Atlanta (230 players)
6th Malvasi Alessandro - FPSLL#5 (65 players)
3rd Ben Perry - SCG Cincinnati (277 players)
5th Dustin Klopping - SCG Cleveland (234 players)
3rd Sylvain Billon - BoM 2-Bye Trial 2013 (114 players)
5th Stephen Padinha - DHG December (80 players)
2014
1st Ville Hallavo - GP Paris (Trial Winners)
5th Julio Sanna - TeTe Open (113 players)
5th Yurien Seyssel - SCG Los Angeles (374 players)
6th Sonny Aparicio - SCG Vegas (232 players)
6th Jesse Parnell - SCG Worcester (290 players)
5th Romain Blavier - Knight Ware Inc. (55 players)
4th Lionel Yuen - Singapore Legacy Championship 2014 (47 players)
2015
3rd Oono Yuki - SCG Legacy Invitational (84 players)
49th Ryuichi Shirakihara - Grand Prix Kyoto (1943 players)
2016
5th Kai Jääskeläinen - Sensei's Divining Shop (59 players)
1st Isaac Castro - VII Edición Arcanis Deluxe 2016 (221 players)
3rd Alexander Strange - SCG Milwaukee (117 players)
2nd Florian Stange - Bazaar of Moxen Annecy (302 players)
5th Brian Guess - SCG Classic Atlanta (105 players)
2017
5th Josh E - Quest for Power 2017 #1: Mox Jet (77 players)
5th Jonathan Ciccarelli - Knight Ware Las Vegas GPT #1 (54 players)
5th Emma Handy - SCG Legacy Classic Louisville (147 players)
4th Jovit Royeca - Legacy Major @ Kick Engines Philippines (24 players)
5th Bernd Zeitler - Win A Dual 24 (42 players)
2018
1st Neil Mccraw - Grand Prix Seattle 2018 (Trial Winners)
3rd Michael Lambers - Legacy Main Event Hamburg (260 players)
2019
4thNaemura Yasuhiro - Hareruya Team Trio (66 players)
Wishless
2012
6th Geoffrey Moes - SCG Columbus (284 players)
2nd Corbin Rudnick - SCG St. Louis (223 players)
-
V. Documents of Special Interest
Math:
Belcher in Legacy: What Should We Expect of This Deck?
Of Math and Magic – The Hypergeometric Distribution
Of Math and Magic – Bayes’ Theorem
Of Math and Magic – The Opening Hand
Writing Help:
BBCode supported by MTGS
Formatting Guide and Tag Help.
The MTG Salvation Tag Explanation Thread
Red Deck Wins R
Dredge U R B G
Dredge W U R B G / Belcher<3
Dredge W U R B G
Dredge B G - What is "competitive EDH"?
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
The Epic Doomsday, commonly referred to as Recross the Paths Belcher, is another G/R Land Grant Storm deck, meaning it is very similar to Belcher. Though they are very similar, (non-Storm players may even say they are the same) they have different objectives. They are not the same deck. However the deck is not popular enough to have its own primer for discussion so its home is here. The deck has no competitive placements that I know of. That is not to say it's bad, just unrepresented. The closest analogue I can think of is the difference between Manaless Dredge and Dredge. Until Manaless Dredge was popular enough, it was considered a spin-off of Dredge. This is the same case with TED and Belcher.
Like every other Land Grant Storm deck, one wants to achieve one of two goals. The first and most straight-forward is to activate Belcher, obviously. The second option is to resolve a Recross the Paths. Because this decks plays no Lands, Recross allows the pilot to arrange the entirety of the deck in any way he sees fit.
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
Instants and Sorceries
1 Act on Impulse
4 Burning Wish
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Grapeshot
4 Manamorphose
4 Pyretic Ritual
2 Recross the Paths
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
3 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
Wishboard
1 Act on Impulse
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Past in Flames
1 Recross the Paths
1 Tendrils of Agony
This is the list I use and the one I think to be the best. I believe Act on Impulse is better than other options because it allows LED's to act exactly like Black Lotus. Grapeshot is included from the wishboard because, even though I think Act is better, it makes it harder to use initial mana sources. It draws fewer cards. In order for my list to play against common hate like Leyline of Sanctity or Gaddock Teeg it has to have a Grapeshot maindeck. The other inclusion I have over other lists is Chain of Vapor maindeck. The rationale is pretty clear to anyone that has played DDFT. It takes up only 1 spot and gives me so much game against a variety of things.
Other lists play Meditate, Ideas Unbound, Thirst for Knowledge, or Draw-Fours. The difference in using these cards is absolutely huge as far as pile construction goes. You will have to relearn every pile you know. If you want to see a different perspective of deck building than mine, check out Michael Augustine's article on constructing piles with his Meditate version.
Macroscopically there are two types of piles: piles that allow the pilot to win on the same turn he cast Recross, usually referred to simply as a pile, and a pile where the pilot must naturally draw the first 2 or 3 cards in the pile before storming off and killing the opponent, generally called pass-the-turn piles. As one might imagine, pass-the-turn piles are generally not favored because they are slower. They allow the opponent time to find an answer. Most piles have (a) prerequisite(s) that must be met for them to work. For example, one needs to have card-draw in hand and RR floating.
Due to the fact piles generally have a prerequisite, pile construction can vary widely from game to game. This is not a Blue deck. It is not Doomsday. The pilot cannot afford to make the same piles every single time because the pilot has no way to achieve a given prerequisite consistently. This deck doesn't play Brainstorm. So piles have to be constructed based on whatever is currently in-hand. Pile building should be done on-the-fly. It is better to learn why a pile works than to just memorise the order.
Here are some very basic starting piles:
Basic Belcher Pile
Requires 3R and Gitaxian Probe.
Act on Impulse
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Goblin Charbelcher
Basic Storm Pile
Requires 2R and Gitaxian Probe.
Act on Impulse
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Burning Wish
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Rite of Flame
Gitaxian Probe
Burning Wish
Storm Pile + Enchantment Removal
Requires the ability to make 2R and 3 storm.
Act on Impulse
Lion's Eye Diamond
Lion's Eye Diamond
Burning Wish
Chain of Vapor
Lion's Eye Diamond
Manamorphose
Manamorphose
Manamorphose
Manamorphose
Gitaxian Probe
Gitaxian Probe
Gitaxian Probe
Gitaxian Probe
Grapeshot
Red Deck Wins R
Dredge U R B G
Dredge W U R B G / Belcher<3
Dredge W U R B G
Dredge B G - What is "competitive EDH"?
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
Any chance you could add stuff about the Recross the Paths version? There was some discussion of it on the last couple of pages on the old thread.
Yes. I will try to add information about that version. I often hear it called The Epic Doomsday because the nature of it involves crafting larger DDFT piles and killing with Tendrils. It's not exactly the same deck as Belcher, but it's close enough to be included in this primer (at least until more people are interested in playing it). I will work on a write-up for the deck. Thanks for making an account to post about it! Welcome.
Red Deck Wins R
Dredge U R B G
Dredge W U R B G / Belcher<3
Dredge W U R B G
Dredge B G - What is "competitive EDH"?
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
The Recross version has about 55/60 cards in common with the stock lists of RG Belcher, so it isn't worth a separate thread imo, given that half the time you just make a regular Belcher-in-hand kill, simply without worrying about Land Grant issues.
There are a lot of piles you can make for the kill (Empty, Tendrils, Grapeshot, multiple Burning Wishes to beat hate cards), but most of the time you make a Belcher pile and stack an extra LED on top of you deck to be able go off the next turn as well (to beat Stifle etc).
http://legitmtg.com/competitive/stacks-on-stacks-on-stacks/ - This article is definitely worth linking people to, explains the basics, but there were some really good posts on The Source that are worth checking out too.
If you haven't tried the deck out already I'd recommend picking the pieces up, especially if you have Blecher online, its a very cheap way to add another Legacy deck to your collection.
(Btw, have you got a link to your Modern Belcher list handy? Keen to give the deck a shot but all the recent ones on the primer seem a little all over the place.)
Here's a link to my current list. I'm not sure what a lot of the people in that thread are thinking, but it is developing Modern so I suppose I should expect bad ideas. Feel free to ask questions about my list in that thread or PM me!
Red Deck Wins R
Dredge U R B G
Dredge W U R B G / Belcher<3
Dredge W U R B G
Dredge B G - What is "competitive EDH"?
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/legacy-charbelcher-23669#online
Some, uh, interesting sideboard options, not really sure on the logic behind Garruk. It will eventually win the game against slower decks but surely if you can burning wish with the potential to float 2GGG there are probably better things to be doing.
The 3 LEDs could potentially be a budget issue, but I would think another Pyretic Ritual should come before maxing out on Chrome Mox.
Yes, it is not a good card at all. I can only assume it's an homage to Yurien Seyssel's SCG LA list. Apparently he forgot some cards from his Sideboard, and one of his friends had (among other things) a Garruk, Primal Hunter, so he used it.
I agree.
Red Deck Wins R
Dredge U R B G
Dredge W U R B G / Belcher<3
Dredge W U R B G
Dredge B G - What is "competitive EDH"?
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=98015
I also have these two decks (just finished Belcher), and I think that Dredge is probably better-positioned simply because of how blue the meta is. It's a great pair, IMO, so you should eventually build both. Gameplay is totally different so you can keep it fresh by switching back and forth. Plus it keeps the players at your LGS guessing
I'd say build both. Dredge may be better positioned now, but eventually people you play with may adapt and pack more and more grave hate. Then you switch to Belcher.
Pyroblast can target a non-blue spell in order to increase storm count, Red Elemental Blast cannot. It is a corner case, but it does come up occasionally.
Thank you for participating!
This is true. I'll be sure to mention it. Good catch.
I feel very strongly about Diminishing Returns, and almost always wish for it if I don't have 4+ storm. It rarely hurts me to play it. I usually get another Burning Wish or Empty and win with lots of Goblins.
Goblin War Strike is amazing and has won me plenty of situations I shouldn't have been able to win from. It's wholesomely underrated against Batterskull.
You're right. I'll fix it.
I would say it's strictly worse for this reason. I've played Pyroblast targeting Lands plenty of times.
Perhaps this is dependent on perspective, but I see what you're saying and will address the ambiguity. I probably didn't say what I meant.
I've actually never thought of that. Good idea! I'll add it.
Red Deck Wins R
Dredge U R B G
Dredge W U R B G / Belcher<3
Dredge W U R B G
Dredge B G - What is "competitive EDH"?
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
I have followed you here from the Modern Forest Belcher Primer! Haha!
Anyways, I have a LEDless list of this one for now (for budgetary reasons; I'm already planning to get those LEDs when eventually, due to Eternal Masters, price almost doubled ). I do have Burning Wish. My question is that, can you give me an idea on which should I run in lieu of Lion's Eye Diamond? Or, should I go away from Burning Wish and just go with the budget version you listed (with Street Wraith)?
For now, my list looks like this:
1 Stomping Ground
Creature:
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
Artifact:
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lotus Petal
Sorcery:
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Seething Song
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Pyroblast
1 Hull Breach
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Pyroclasm
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Shattering Spree
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin War Strike
I do wanna try the Recross the Paths list, but it looks like having Lion's Eye Diamond is mandatory on that version of the deck.
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
Thanks for the reply. I'm legitimately glad you're here! I appreciate the input. I touched on the use of Past in Flames, but I think I'll highlight the importance of it since you brought it up. I also need to discuss Gaddock Teeg and attempts to fight prison-hate in general. That's something I need to address, but I would like more input from other pilots on it before adding it to the primer.
As for your paper: I would be honored to help you with it if you would allow me to. I can help translate. I speak a little bit of German, know C, and am a math major, so we could probably communicate pretty well.
Thanks for the post! Personally (and I think other Belcher pilots would agree) I believe that playing Burning Wish without Lion's Eye Diamond is just too hard. I would play Street Wraith. And it makes sense, even if you don't think about it too much. The only card that makes LED good is Burning Wish, because you activate it in response to the Wish, so that you get your card and your mana. That is literally the only reason the card sees play in this deck, or any other Storm deck for that matter. The only other case I can imagine, is that LED is a really good card against Sneak 'n Show. You play LED. Pass the turn, and sit around with a Belcher in hand waiting for them to play Show and Tell. As soon as you get priority after it resolves, win with a Belcher activation. But other than that weird interaction, there's absolutely no advantage to playing LED.
So, LED without Burning Wish is bad. But is the converse true? (Which is what you're asking.) In my opinion: yeah. It probably is. I have 2 reasons why, but my rationale is a little stilted, I'll admit.
Now I'm going to counter-argue what I just said, because it's kind of controversial. I said that LED is bad without Burning Wish. "Well, if that's true, why do even Wishless Belcher builds play them, and why did Trall not cover the analysis of a single deck without LED?" Well. To be honest, I don't know. I would imagine that it's because LED is free. I mean at its absolute worst, it's +1 storm. But you could be playing a Mishra's Bauble for exactly the same effect! LED isn't special in being free, but in a Wishless build it's both free, and can sometimes activate Belcher. That's why it's seeing play. Is that particularly important? In my opinion no. Having +1 storm is important, but it isn't going to turn your poor play into a good one. A good pilot can still take easy games with an unoptimised list. That's why I say to play Street Wraiths in lieu of LED's.
I also said Belcher is meta dependent. That's true. But again, if you're a good pilot it really doesn't matter. Burning Wish gives you massive outplay potential. But that isn't what we're talking about here. We're discussing whether it's cost efficient without LED. In my opinion it's not.
As for your question about the RtP version, actually yes-and-no. It isn't LED dependent, depending on how you construct the deck. The one I have on the Primer requires multiple ones, because it kills quicker. But technically you only need 1 LED to make the deck work because that's ultimately all you need for things like Cruel Bargain online. You would just have to build a slower version that passed the turn and used Ideas Unbound as a draw engine instead of Act on Impulse. I'm not exactly sure what that would look like, but I'll think about it for you.
I hope that answers your questions a little. I also hope someone else responds to disagree with me. Good discussion makes great pilots.
Red Deck Wins R
Dredge U R B G
Dredge W U R B G / Belcher<3
Dredge W U R B G
Dredge B G - What is "competitive EDH"?
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
Thanks for the concise response! Actually, I have tournament experience with the Wishless, LEDless Belcher, as well as the list I posted. I could say that, very few times did I attempt to pull off Tendrils of Agony from the Wishboard, but I did win games via Goblin War Strike. But I do like the argument of having virtually a 48-deck Belcher(4 Street Wraiths, 4 Gitaxian Probes, 4 Manamorphoses). Easier to pilot given I don't have LED, but a bit more hard post-board I believe.
On another note, what do you think of being Jund without LEDs? I mean, adding Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, and maybe, Dark Petition? (I'll be updating the post later to include a sample list).
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
I do believe LED is vital to the deck. What I understand he is saying is that, Belcher can be played without it, but of course it is less optimal (I strongly believe especially in the Recross Belcher build that it is very vital).
Yeah, the first iteration of this primer did mention the 2-land Belcher. I might test it just because I don't have LEDs. Of course if I do have those, I'll go with the optimal, basic Wish Belcher list.
I saw the GP Kyoto list, and it is quite interesting. Seems like post-board it sacrifices speed for disruption (especially against Force of Will decks). Though it still runs LEDs, it gives me some sort of idea on how to approach the build LEDless.
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
LED and Wish is fine.
LED and not Wish is fine.
Not LED and not Wish is fine.
Not LED and Wish is not fine.
I am not saying LED is not worth playing, but I am saying if you do not have LED, you should not play Wish, or at least not a full Wishboard. The only thing you can reliably cast is Empty and War Strike.
Red Deck Wins R
Dredge U R B G
Dredge W U R B G / Belcher<3
Dredge W U R B G
Dredge B G - What is "competitive EDH"?
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
With that note, I somewhat agree. Having virtually 7 copies of Empty the Warrens main did somewhat help me during my play with LEDless. True, the fizzle rate zooms up once LED is factored out of the equation.
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
If it were me, I would do this:
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
Creatures
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Dark Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Land Grant
4 Manamorphose
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
2 Seething Song
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lotus Petal
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
Creatures
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Burning Wish
4 Dark Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
2 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Land Grant
4 Manamorphose
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lotus Petal
Red Deck Wins R
Dredge U R B G
Dredge W U R B G / Belcher<3
Dredge W U R B G
Dredge B G - What is "competitive EDH"?
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
RGForest BelcherRG
WUBRGBring to BalanceWUBRG
Commander Decks:
WUBSharuum the HegemonWUB
WUBRGScion of the Ur-DragonWUBRG
UBDralnu, Lich LordUB
UBRNekusar, the MindrazerUBR
And sideboard, Pyroblast is better than REB couse storm count if needed? I think for belcher wont make difference between both like Pyromancers decks.
thanks!
The idea is as follows:
Game 1, play "budget" Belcher. Why budget? We have a transitional sideboard, which transitions into Sneak Attack. This means that we have no Burning Wish gameplan, and we also do not want LED in the deck. I propose this decklist as a starting point:
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Street Wraith
4 Seething Song (normally Lion's Eye Diamond, but we normally use LED to activate Belcher, whereas we cannot use it to activate Sneak Attack)
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Manamorphose
4 Land Grant
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lotus Petal
3 Serum Powder (normally this is Chrome Mox, but because we want to look for possible t1 kill so opponent thinks we're playing Belcher, but then we sb into Sneak Attack and make them sb incorrectly.)
1 Taiga
SB:
4 Sneak Attack
3 Through the Breach
4 Worldspine Wurm
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (However, I think this should be a different creature, since we want to kill with either the swing, or the tokens that are left after. Worldspine leaves 15 power, while Emrakul does not kill the opponent. We "blow the payload" with Emrakul and then we're done. If we were always on the play, I would suggest Blightsteel Colossus, but if they play turn 1 creature, then we probably don't kill them.)
Sideboard transition:
Remove 15 cards, add 15 cards, to throw our opponents off and have them sideboard incorrectly against us. We side out Charbelcher and Empty the Warrens, but we need to figure out the other 7 cards to remove.
Any thoughts?
I'm really happy to see Eldrazi becoming a thing. They have no access to Force and their only other types of consistent interaction are Wasteland and Chalice. The former is easily remedied by having a Forest in the Sideboard; the latter can be beaten easily by just having a mathematically strong deck (i.e. by staying fast and consistent) as a Chalice on 0, or even 1 to be honest, doesn't hurt that badly.
The matchup is not free though. Some lists Sideboard Warping Wail which is amazingly annoying to play against, but we also have Sideboard cards to handle it. Another thing to be mindful of is Thorn Amethyst. I'm pretty sure I've only won a single game with an Amethyst in play.
All-in-all though, I'm happy for the success of Eldrazi.
Red Deck Wins R
Dredge U R B G
Dredge W U R B G / Belcher<3
Dredge W U R B G
Dredge B G - What is "competitive EDH"?
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon