The guy I was playing had never piloted it before and played an exhume. I brought back Balustrade Spy (because of Serra Avatar in the main) and I am wondering if this has happened to other people.
Sounds like he misplayed.
The logical choice against a Spy deck is Reanimate, targeting your deck and making you poop your deck, hoping you're not running something like Serra Avatar.
I've had this happen to me a couple times, but most Reanimator players I've played against learned this trick pretty early on, I don't think you'll get lucky like this very often.
Oh, well sure, I would just wonder if you can reliably deck yourself with a single griselbrand activation.
You don't have to dredge everytime. Each draw event is a separate instance, so you get to choose between draw or dredge for each.
BTW, I've played with Land Grant quite a bit c/o storm decks, but also here in manaless. I don't like it.
Reason being, an opponent getting to see your hand can be a big deal on a combo turn. Despite the life lost to fetches, I would go with fetch lands myself unless budget was a problem. Remember that Grant is a sorcery, you can drop a fetch and only tap/sac it when you want Arbor, including in response to Wasteland etc. Not always relevant, but something to think about....
I've tried it.
That combo actually takes up a fair bit of deck space, and if only one piece is extracted you're unable to use any of it.
Flayer of the Hatebound requires a lot less support, and it's pretty unlikely your opponent can prevent a Flayer AND creature stompage win at the same time.
Quick question on the green variant. Would any of you recommend Overgrown Tomb as a substitute for Bayou?
Yep. It's budget but does the job just fine.
I didn't usually find the extra life loss over Bayou to be an issue, however I usually ran with only Forests when I ran the green side, due to Wasteland.
Wasteland might not seem like much of a threat, but the decks that run it will not usually side it out for matches 2 and/or 3. Just sayin.....
Quick question on the green variant. Would any of you recommend Overgrown Tomb as a substitute for Bayou?
Yep. It's budget but does the job just fine.
I didn't usually find the extra life loss over Bayou to be an issue, however I usually ran with only Forests when I ran the green side, due to Wasteland.
Wasteland might not seem like much of a threat, but the decks that run it will not usually side it out for matches 2 and/or 3. Just sayin.....
I am trying to figure out the path to take, after recently playing my fearless (no way to deal with enchantment hate) dredge. I have the standard build using Spy and was wondering which way I should go in terms of upgrades. As of right now, I can switch to the Griselbrand variant that has Dryad Arbors and Nature's claim to deal with hate. The real question is, should I go manaless blue or just swing it for LED Dredge?
Here is my stats with fearless dredge:
Round 1 - UR Delver v. Fearless Manaless Dredge (meaning I can't deal with enchantment hate):
Game 1 combo'd for the kill.
Game 2 was very grindy and I ended up winning via combo again.
Round 2 - Elves
Game 1 - Elves combo'd and I died pretty quick.
Game 2 - Was a close game, all I needed was one more creature and the game was mine. Welp, I dredged my last dredge, full knowing next turn I was dead and no dice. My opponent won.
Round 3 - Miracles
Game 1 - was utterly brutal thanks to his continuous Terminus and Force of Wills. I could no longer combo after he countered my last Dread Return, so I went the griny route and whittled his health down to 0. It was such a long match, that other legacy players were shocked that it was still game 1.
Game 2 - I played two Necromebas and then played Rest in Peace - I had no Cabal Therapy - so GG.
Game 3 - He Rest in Peace turn 2 - so GG.
Round 4 - Doomsday
Game 1 - He used Cabal Therapy and had me discard two cards. Needless to say, that time walked me and I was too far behind to be of any threat. I lost.
Game 2 - Forgot what he did, but he tried a different tactic, full knowing that I was able to point out that his combo was pretty easy to kill - note: keep mouth shut until after the game - he combo'd like turn 2 or 3, and I died.
So nutshell is 1/3, with pretty much all but two of the games being close.
Extra notes:
There are two Delver players, two Jund players, one Junk, one Miracles, and one Doomsday. I am the only dredge player and a friend of mine is planning on playing stone blade. There are 12 regulars excluding myself and my friend, so I am missing the decks of at least 4 dudes.
So what are your suggestions, knowing that these decks exists?
Played in the 2:30 Legacy 5 Round Swiss at GP Vegas yesterday.
Round 1: ANT
Result: 2-0
He misplayed while going off game 1, had no mana floating and tried to cast Infernal Tutor with LED. Game 2 I had Leyline out and just comboed out before he could do anything relevant.
Round 2: Oops All Spells
Result: 2-0
My opponent pretty much just whiffed.
Round 3: Miracles
Result: 2-0
Oooh boy, this match. Honestly the best match of Magic I have ever played. Game 1 was fairly standard. Game 2 was long, drawn out and tense. Thankfully he never saw any of his hate he boarded in, but I had to dance through Terminus three times, StP, Force, Counterspell, he had a Flusterstorm floating around. I earned this victory, my adrenaline was pumping like crazy.
Round 4: Shardless BUG w/Special Guest Opponent Adam Prosak
Result: 0-2
Multiple active DRS, 'nuff said.
Round 5: Death and Taxes
Result: Intentional Draw
My opponent and I ID'd rather than risk the huge gap in prize tickets.
In all it was a ton of fun, did way better than I expected.
I chose to be on the draw and he immediately knew I was playing MD and mourned that he had chaeted on his graveyard hate. So, Game 1 I actually had a terrible hand/dredges, and wasn't able to win until turn13 or something, which is really really slow for this deck. But win I did. Game 2 was, surprisingly, a bit harder. I assembled a trio of creatures quickly but he countered my dread return, and I also somehow ran out of dredgers. He also exiled 2 then 3 of my bridges by sacking/blocking with his creatures. I realized I would have to go on the beatdown, and so I did, finally killing him with chords, zombies, shadows, and 2 narcomoebas.
Result: 2-0
Round 2: Omni-Tell
Fortunately I know how omni-tell works pretty well, so I knew what to expect, and his deck was more or less your typical omni-tell. Game 1, I drew this ridiculousness: 1 street wraith, 2 gitaxian probe, 1 chancellor of the annex, 1 good dredger, and a few other cards, I think 2 bridge from below and a balustrade spy. He put down volcanic island and then passed to me due to COTA's tax. I drew and then discarded my dredger, then passed to him. He played a land and then played ponder, also paying the 1 from chancellor. At the end of his turn, i cycled street wraith, dredging a couple of beaters and some other stuff. For my upkeep, I brought back a nether shadow, then dredged for the draw step and with the 2 gitaxian probes. The dredges rewarded me with a narcomoeba , some bridges, and a phantasmagorian, which I used to get the other bridges from my hand into the yard. I knew he had some force of will so I cabal therapied them, subsequently shredded his hand, too. I then had plenty of creatures for a dread return, so I DR'ed balustrade spy and won. Turn 2 win!! Game 2 was even more interesting. I had another chancellor in my hand, which I made sure to save in case he played show and tell. I used phantasmagorian to get stuff in the GY quickly, but I couldn't assemble 3 creatures for a DR due to a lack of bridges. So I decided to aggressively cabal therapy him; actually, I may have cabal therapies myself first so I could get a spy in the GY, although that might have been a different game; so I cabal therapies him blindly naming omniscience and hit one, also revealing a cunning wish and a draw spell or 2. Now both of us were slowed down, me due to lack of creatures and him due to his missing combo piece. He eventually drew a show and tell and played it, so I put in chancellor of the annex and he put in omniscience. At this point the other people who were watching laughed, one saying, "He's got a thalia," and my opponent remarked, "Well this makes things a bit more difficult for me. Uh, let me think for a second..." He couldn't combo off because he actually had to pay for his spells, so I was saved, at least for the time being. He played a few draw spells, then passed to me. I was able to assemble a decent army of creatures, which if I am remembering correctly was: 1 narcomoeba, the chancellor, an ichorid, and a nether shadow. I swung for 10, bringing him down to 1 life, then I attempted a cabal therapy (it might have been a dread return), but he countered by casting FoW for free due to omniscience, although he did have to pay 1 due to chancellor. Ichorid died at the end of turn, leaving me with just chancellor and narco. I passed to him, and he played cunning wish into swords to plowshares on my chancellor. He played some dig through times and brainstorms but ultimately did not have enough/the right cards to complete the combo. He was killed by a little flying jellyfish!!
Result: 2-0
Round 3: UR Delver
He knew already what I was playing, and he told me that he would have to read some of my cards because he wasn't totally familiar with how the deck worked. I quickly smashed him with the regular combo game 1, and 1 spectator joked, "Do you have a license plate for that truck? Cuz you just rammed him." Game 2 was unfortunate, as he opened with a grafdigger's cage and I was powerless to stop him. Game 3 was another interesting one. I didn't want to get smashed by cage again, so I figured I'd better do something. I sided in 2 unmask and went on the play. AS luck would have it, I drew one, so I decided to play it, targeting him. Ironically, he had no grave hate in his hand, but he did have a ponder, 2 swiftspears, and a delver of secrets, so I took away the delver and prayed that he wouldn't draw into any grave hate and that I could survive long enough to draw enough cards and start dredging. His 'spears smashed repeatedly, but on the 4th turn I was finally able to discard. From there, I used a probe and a bauble to quickly fill up my graveyard, but 2 turns later he got me down to 1 and passed the turn to me. I was able to get together 3 creatures for a DR, but I only had 1 DR in my graveyard, and the probe had revealed a force of will. I also had no cabal therapy; either that, or I had to use the only one I had on myself to get a spy in the GY; so I thought I was going to lose at this point. I figured I had nothing to lose from trying a DR, so I did so on spy, and lo and behold he did not counter it! I think he didn't really understand that I would immediately win once I got out spy. In fact, nobody I played against was familiar with the spy-flayer-troll kill, I think; one guy even asked me repeatedly if I was done with my turn, when I was right in the middle of the spy combo. And so, with one life remaining, I DR'ed the spy and then won!
Result: 2-1
I was the only undefeated player left at this point going into the 4th an final round.
Round 4: Lands (Eternal Garden)
I knew what deck this guy was playing because I had played a casual game against him once, so I knew I'd have to play through bojuka bogs, among other stuff. Game 1 I don't remember seeing any bogs, but he did manage to pull off a dark depths-thespian's stage combo to get a 20/20 flyer. Fortunately, I had a narcomoeba, who has flying, so i blocked the 20/20 and I quickly combed off with balustrade spy. He kept asking if it was his turn--the combo caught him by surprise. Game 2 was tough. I made a misplay, using phantasmagorian too aggressively, as he followed with bojuka bog and so i did not get in another dredge for a number of turns. By the time I got a discard in, he got the 20/20 combo again, and he swung in on his turn. I cycled street wraith in response, hoping to find a narcomoeba to save the day, but didn't find one. Game 3 was even worse. He kept bogging me down and he landed a the tabernacle at pendrell vale and a glacial chasm, so I kept pinging him with beaters but it wasn't very effective, and i couldn't build up enough of a GY to combo off, as he kept using crop rotation into bog. He brought out the 20/20 and won the match.
Result: loss 1-2
Final Result: 3-1 (Tiebreaker: 3rd place, but i had the highest game win %)
Decided to finally do a new take on Manaless and try a quasi blue version. I have 4 Force of Will, but I couldn't find 2-4 Disrupting Shoal before the tournament. Had I found Disrupting Shoals I probably would of maindecked the FOW, but I figured siding it in either games 2 or 3 as a surprise factor against graveyard hate and general blow outs (killing their own dudes to exile my Bridges, etc.) would be a safe bet.
It was a good meta full of Storm, RUG Delver, 12-Post, D&T, Shardless BUG, Esper Deathblade, so of course I got paired against my usual opponents I face instead....
2-1 Burn
0-2 Death & Taxes
2-0 Elves
2-0 Burn 3-1
(4th out of 15)
I changed my sideboard around a bit. No one in my area plays Show & Tell or Omnitell so i took out the 4 Ashen Rider. I also use to rock Serra Avatar in my side, but the only person with Imperial Painter sold their deck. At larger IQ's or SCG Open's I would definitely play these though, especially with how popular Omnitell has gotten in recent months. 4 Mindbreak Trap are also solid at larger tournaments.... Storm can be a nasty match-up, and at SCG IQ's right now it is doing well.
Nothing too exciting. Historically and statisically speaking, D&T has been a good match-up for me for the 2 years I've played the deck, and I've been on a losing streak against it the last 2-3 tournaments. Unfortunate but it happens. Game 2 all 4 of my Bridges were in my last 12 cards of the deck.
I didn't get to Force that much. It wasn't that I never had an extra blue card in my hand, it was just that it was never in my starting hand. I usually always did start out with a Gitaxian Probe, Narcomoeba, or even a Whirlpool Rider in my starting 8. My opening Dredging usually hit a Force though. But I mean, this is a very small sample of test results though. It was pretty sweet when it did come up. I was able to stop a blow out from removing 2 of my Bridges from my yard, which the proceeding zombie horde won the game promoptly after. I also was able to counter 1 Grave hate card in the night. Better one than none.
After sideboarding the blue deck does feel clunkier. Dredging Forces are dead dredges especially when you could be dredging away the Ichorid fodder that you sided out. But it was nice to have more reactive tools than just Cabal Therapy and Chancellor. The night ended up 3-1, with me at 4th out of 15. I will be testing it out much more. I think one of the better starting hands for blue (after draw, before discard) was:
2 Gitaxian Probe, 1 Narcomoeba, 1 Force of Will, 1 Phantasmagorian, 2 Dredgers, 1 Bridge
It was pretty much the ideal hand with the blue version, as you discard the Phantasmagorian, using the ability to discard the 2 dredgers and bridge, and can hold up a Force of Will with a Narcoemoeba while going crazy on your Probes. The only way it could of gotten better was -1 Gitaxian and +1 Street Wraith, thus ending an End of Turn cycle/dredge so turn 2 Ichorid's or Nether Shadows are possible (which can also set up the very rare but very fun turn 2 kill)
Looks interesting... and grindy.
I'm a fan of Ghast/Dakmor > it's quite a solid way to play the deck given the amount of things like Thalia that kills our combo turn.
Could see some interesting lines of play here, but;
I'm not convinced that the green here is really adding much, given that you'd need both an Arbor/forest (of 6 = 41% chance) and a Claim (of 4 = 36% chance) in your opener, which has a terribly unlikely chance of both happening, of about 15% in a hand of 8.
It worked really well for me in my first Vintage try, I expect it to be worth running in any really grindy Dredge deck, despite the drawbacks
@Tom: You haven't optimized any of your three sideboard plans (totally free stuff, green enchant destruction, hand-pitching blue stuff) but I like all three as the start of a more focused sideboard plan
Hey everyone! I played this deck a while about a year or so ago and have decided to rebuild it and I'm looking forward to any potential discussions (Thread seems VERY slow however )
I have stumbled upon this and its been hella fun to goldfish. The creator thinks its the more resilient manaless dredge list too (due to being able to sideboard Forces, Natures Claims, and Disrupting Shoal). From what I have goldfished, you are giving up the autowin possibility of Balustrade Spy to be a little more resilient. It does, however seem to go off on about the same turn, but instead of through Balustrade Spy, you use River Kelpie instead. Kelpie is INSANE in this deck.
I've recently started playing more modern and testing decks with friends with the idea of actually going to tournaments.
The blue version on the front page runs 3 force of will main & 1 in the board. Could you get by with 2 maindeck? Or is that not enough to warrant ditching the spy for whirlpool rider?
Also could vengeful pharaoh (from the vintage post 2 posts up) be a real thing in legacy? Seems like it might be useful against decks that have a very small board presence. Reanimator maybe?
3) Along those lines has anyone tried Sphinx of Lost Truths in the blue package? Not sure what the average card draw will be with Whirlpool Rider, but the Sphinx of Lost Truths seems interesting with the guaranteed 3 draw and benefits of discarding afterward.
4) Has anyone tried Serum Powder as maybe a 1-of? I know vintage runs a full playset.
Sorry for all the questions. I have been running the "traditional Spy build". I am happy with it however want to expand to have more of a plan game2. I like the idea of dropping in my force of wills. There doesn't seem to be that much info on the blue type. I tried youtube but most the commentators on games are not dredge experts; and most deck-techs are on the spy version.
3) Along those lines has anyone tried Sphinx of Lost Truths in the blue package? Not sure what the average card draw will be with Whirlpool Rider, but the Sphinx of Lost Truths seems interesting with the guaranteed 3 draw and benefits of discarding afterward.
4) Has anyone tried Serum Powder as maybe a 1-of? I know vintage runs a full playset.
Sorry for all the questions. I have been running the "traditional Spy build". I am happy with it however want to expand to have more of a plan game2. I like the idea of dropping in my force of wills. There doesn't seem to be that much info on the blue type. I tried youtube but most the commentators on games are not dredge experts; and most deck-techs are on the spy version.
Yeah, if you're not on Disrupting Shoal you want a Sphinx or River Kelpie, something like that. I would not run a bigger Whirlpool creature.
People have experimented with Serum Powder. You're just trying to find a dredger, so Serum Powder is pretty low value for us. "Manaless" builds with Lion's Eye Diamond and flashback spells run Serum Powder because they need to actually sculpt their opening hand. In Vintage the deck is vastly enhanced when you open with Bazaar of Baghdad, so Serum Powder is key to competing with other Vintage-level decks.
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Legacy:
Manaless Dredge http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/phantasmagorian-manaless-dredge/
Goblins http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dont-know-how-to-count-no-more-legacy-goblins/
ad nauseam tendrils http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-04-15-ant-budget/
Modern:
elves http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/elf-pump-30000-dmg-possible/
burn. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-deck-that-made-history/
infect http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/infect-win-2-turns/
Sounds like he misplayed.
The logical choice against a Spy deck is Reanimate, targeting your deck and making you poop your deck, hoping you're not running something like Serra Avatar.
I've had this happen to me a couple times, but most Reanimator players I've played against learned this trick pretty early on, I don't think you'll get lucky like this very often.
You don't have to dredge everytime. Each draw event is a separate instance, so you get to choose between draw or dredge for each.
BTW, I've played with Land Grant quite a bit c/o storm decks, but also here in manaless. I don't like it.
Reason being, an opponent getting to see your hand can be a big deal on a combo turn. Despite the life lost to fetches, I would go with fetch lands myself unless budget was a problem. Remember that Grant is a sorcery, you can drop a fetch and only tap/sac it when you want Arbor, including in response to Wasteland etc. Not always relevant, but something to think about....
I know, I actually meant the opposite; whether you could dredge enough cards.
Legacy:
Manaless Dredge http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/phantasmagorian-manaless-dredge/
Goblins http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dont-know-how-to-count-no-more-legacy-goblins/
ad nauseam tendrils http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-04-15-ant-budget/
Modern:
elves http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/elf-pump-30000-dmg-possible/
burn. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-deck-that-made-history/
infect http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/infect-win-2-turns/
That combo actually takes up a fair bit of deck space, and if only one piece is extracted you're unable to use any of it.
Flayer of the Hatebound requires a lot less support, and it's pretty unlikely your opponent can prevent a Flayer AND creature stompage win at the same time.
Yep. It's budget but does the job just fine.
I didn't usually find the extra life loss over Bayou to be an issue, however I usually ran with only Forests when I ran the green side, due to Wasteland.
Wasteland might not seem like much of a threat, but the decks that run it will not usually side it out for matches 2 and/or 3. Just sayin.....
I guess you could use Chalice of the Void @ zero? Ha ha. Yeah maybe not.
Thanks for the tip, I appreciate it.
I am trying to figure out the path to take, after recently playing my fearless (no way to deal with enchantment hate) dredge. I have the standard build using Spy and was wondering which way I should go in terms of upgrades. As of right now, I can switch to the Griselbrand variant that has Dryad Arbors and Nature's claim to deal with hate. The real question is, should I go manaless blue or just swing it for LED Dredge?
Here is my stats with fearless dredge:
Round 1 - UR Delver v. Fearless Manaless Dredge (meaning I can't deal with enchantment hate):
Game 1 combo'd for the kill.
Game 2 was very grindy and I ended up winning via combo again.
Round 2 - Elves
Game 1 - Elves combo'd and I died pretty quick.
Game 2 - Was a close game, all I needed was one more creature and the game was mine. Welp, I dredged my last dredge, full knowing next turn I was dead and no dice. My opponent won.
Round 3 - Miracles
Game 1 - was utterly brutal thanks to his continuous Terminus and Force of Wills. I could no longer combo after he countered my last Dread Return, so I went the griny route and whittled his health down to 0. It was such a long match, that other legacy players were shocked that it was still game 1.
Game 2 - I played two Necromebas and then played Rest in Peace - I had no Cabal Therapy - so GG.
Game 3 - He Rest in Peace turn 2 - so GG.
Round 4 - Doomsday
Game 1 - He used Cabal Therapy and had me discard two cards. Needless to say, that time walked me and I was too far behind to be of any threat. I lost.
Game 2 - Forgot what he did, but he tried a different tactic, full knowing that I was able to point out that his combo was pretty easy to kill - note: keep mouth shut until after the game - he combo'd like turn 2 or 3, and I died.
So nutshell is 1/3, with pretty much all but two of the games being close.
Extra notes:
There are two Delver players, two Jund players, one Junk, one Miracles, and one Doomsday. I am the only dredge player and a friend of mine is planning on playing stone blade. There are 12 regulars excluding myself and my friend, so I am missing the decks of at least 4 dudes.
So what are your suggestions, knowing that these decks exists?
4 Nether Shadow
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
3 Balustrade Spy
3 Shambling Shell
1 Griselbrand
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
Sideboard is
4 Leyline of tge Void
3 Contagion
2 Sickening Shoal
2 Faerie Macabre
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
-Retired Decks-
UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Shambling Shell
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Street Wraith
4 Phantasmagorian
3 Balustrade Spy
3 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Serra Avatar
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Griselbrand
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Contagion
2 Sickening Shoal
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Ashen Rider
Tournament report!
Played in the 2:30 Legacy 5 Round Swiss at GP Vegas yesterday.
Round 1: ANT
Result: 2-0
He misplayed while going off game 1, had no mana floating and tried to cast Infernal Tutor with LED. Game 2 I had Leyline out and just comboed out before he could do anything relevant.
Round 2: Oops All Spells
Result: 2-0
My opponent pretty much just whiffed.
Round 3: Miracles
Result: 2-0
Oooh boy, this match. Honestly the best match of Magic I have ever played. Game 1 was fairly standard. Game 2 was long, drawn out and tense. Thankfully he never saw any of his hate he boarded in, but I had to dance through Terminus three times, StP, Force, Counterspell, he had a Flusterstorm floating around. I earned this victory, my adrenaline was pumping like crazy.
Round 4: Shardless BUG w/Special Guest Opponent Adam Prosak
Result: 0-2
Multiple active DRS, 'nuff said.
Round 5: Death and Taxes
Result: Intentional Draw
My opponent and I ID'd rather than risk the huge gap in prize tickets.
In all it was a ton of fun, did way better than I expected.
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
-Retired Decks-
UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Round 1: Grixis Control
I chose to be on the draw and he immediately knew I was playing MD and mourned that he had chaeted on his graveyard hate. So, Game 1 I actually had a terrible hand/dredges, and wasn't able to win until turn13 or something, which is really really slow for this deck. But win I did. Game 2 was, surprisingly, a bit harder. I assembled a trio of creatures quickly but he countered my dread return, and I also somehow ran out of dredgers. He also exiled 2 then 3 of my bridges by sacking/blocking with his creatures. I realized I would have to go on the beatdown, and so I did, finally killing him with chords, zombies, shadows, and 2 narcomoebas.
Result: 2-0
Round 2: Omni-Tell
Fortunately I know how omni-tell works pretty well, so I knew what to expect, and his deck was more or less your typical omni-tell. Game 1, I drew this ridiculousness: 1 street wraith, 2 gitaxian probe, 1 chancellor of the annex, 1 good dredger, and a few other cards, I think 2 bridge from below and a balustrade spy. He put down volcanic island and then passed to me due to COTA's tax. I drew and then discarded my dredger, then passed to him. He played a land and then played ponder, also paying the 1 from chancellor. At the end of his turn, i cycled street wraith, dredging a couple of beaters and some other stuff. For my upkeep, I brought back a nether shadow, then dredged for the draw step and with the 2 gitaxian probes. The dredges rewarded me with a narcomoeba , some bridges, and a phantasmagorian, which I used to get the other bridges from my hand into the yard. I knew he had some force of will so I cabal therapied them, subsequently shredded his hand, too. I then had plenty of creatures for a dread return, so I DR'ed balustrade spy and won. Turn 2 win!! Game 2 was even more interesting. I had another chancellor in my hand, which I made sure to save in case he played show and tell. I used phantasmagorian to get stuff in the GY quickly, but I couldn't assemble 3 creatures for a DR due to a lack of bridges. So I decided to aggressively cabal therapy him; actually, I may have cabal therapies myself first so I could get a spy in the GY, although that might have been a different game; so I cabal therapies him blindly naming omniscience and hit one, also revealing a cunning wish and a draw spell or 2. Now both of us were slowed down, me due to lack of creatures and him due to his missing combo piece. He eventually drew a show and tell and played it, so I put in chancellor of the annex and he put in omniscience. At this point the other people who were watching laughed, one saying, "He's got a thalia," and my opponent remarked, "Well this makes things a bit more difficult for me. Uh, let me think for a second..." He couldn't combo off because he actually had to pay for his spells, so I was saved, at least for the time being. He played a few draw spells, then passed to me. I was able to assemble a decent army of creatures, which if I am remembering correctly was: 1 narcomoeba, the chancellor, an ichorid, and a nether shadow. I swung for 10, bringing him down to 1 life, then I attempted a cabal therapy (it might have been a dread return), but he countered by casting FoW for free due to omniscience, although he did have to pay 1 due to chancellor. Ichorid died at the end of turn, leaving me with just chancellor and narco. I passed to him, and he played cunning wish into swords to plowshares on my chancellor. He played some dig through times and brainstorms but ultimately did not have enough/the right cards to complete the combo. He was killed by a little flying jellyfish!!
Result: 2-0
Round 3: UR Delver
He knew already what I was playing, and he told me that he would have to read some of my cards because he wasn't totally familiar with how the deck worked. I quickly smashed him with the regular combo game 1, and 1 spectator joked, "Do you have a license plate for that truck? Cuz you just rammed him." Game 2 was unfortunate, as he opened with a grafdigger's cage and I was powerless to stop him. Game 3 was another interesting one. I didn't want to get smashed by cage again, so I figured I'd better do something. I sided in 2 unmask and went on the play. AS luck would have it, I drew one, so I decided to play it, targeting him. Ironically, he had no grave hate in his hand, but he did have a ponder, 2 swiftspears, and a delver of secrets, so I took away the delver and prayed that he wouldn't draw into any grave hate and that I could survive long enough to draw enough cards and start dredging. His 'spears smashed repeatedly, but on the 4th turn I was finally able to discard. From there, I used a probe and a bauble to quickly fill up my graveyard, but 2 turns later he got me down to 1 and passed the turn to me. I was able to get together 3 creatures for a DR, but I only had 1 DR in my graveyard, and the probe had revealed a force of will. I also had no cabal therapy; either that, or I had to use the only one I had on myself to get a spy in the GY; so I thought I was going to lose at this point. I figured I had nothing to lose from trying a DR, so I did so on spy, and lo and behold he did not counter it! I think he didn't really understand that I would immediately win once I got out spy. In fact, nobody I played against was familiar with the spy-flayer-troll kill, I think; one guy even asked me repeatedly if I was done with my turn, when I was right in the middle of the spy combo. And so, with one life remaining, I DR'ed the spy and then won!
Result: 2-1
I was the only undefeated player left at this point going into the 4th an final round.
Round 4: Lands (Eternal Garden)
I knew what deck this guy was playing because I had played a casual game against him once, so I knew I'd have to play through bojuka bogs, among other stuff. Game 1 I don't remember seeing any bogs, but he did manage to pull off a dark depths-thespian's stage combo to get a 20/20 flyer. Fortunately, I had a narcomoeba, who has flying, so i blocked the 20/20 and I quickly combed off with balustrade spy. He kept asking if it was his turn--the combo caught him by surprise. Game 2 was tough. I made a misplay, using phantasmagorian too aggressively, as he followed with bojuka bog and so i did not get in another dredge for a number of turns. By the time I got a discard in, he got the 20/20 combo again, and he swung in on his turn. I cycled street wraith in response, hoping to find a narcomoeba to save the day, but didn't find one. Game 3 was even worse. He kept bogging me down and he landed a the tabernacle at pendrell vale and a glacial chasm, so I kept pinging him with beaters but it wasn't very effective, and i couldn't build up enough of a GY to combo off, as he kept using crop rotation into bog. He brought out the 20/20 and won the match.
Result: loss 1-2
Final Result: 3-1 (Tiebreaker: 3rd place, but i had the highest game win %)
Not bad for the first outing!
Legacy:
Manaless Dredge http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/phantasmagorian-manaless-dredge/
Goblins http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dont-know-how-to-count-no-more-legacy-goblins/
ad nauseam tendrils http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-04-15-ant-budget/
Modern:
elves http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/elf-pump-30000-dmg-possible/
burn. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-deck-that-made-history/
infect http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/infect-win-2-turns/
It was a good meta full of Storm, RUG Delver, 12-Post, D&T, Shardless BUG, Esper Deathblade, so of course I got paired against my usual opponents I face instead....
2-1 Burn
0-2 Death & Taxes
2-0 Elves
2-0 Burn
3-1
(4th out of 15)
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Shambling Shell
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Balustrade Spy
4 Street Wraith
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dread Return
4 Force of Will
2 Whirlpool Rider
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Contagion
3 Mindbreak Trap
I changed my sideboard around a bit. No one in my area plays Show & Tell or Omnitell so i took out the 4 Ashen Rider. I also use to rock Serra Avatar in my side, but the only person with Imperial Painter sold their deck. At larger IQ's or SCG Open's I would definitely play these though, especially with how popular Omnitell has gotten in recent months. 4 Mindbreak Trap are also solid at larger tournaments.... Storm can be a nasty match-up, and at SCG IQ's right now it is doing well.
Nothing too exciting. Historically and statisically speaking, D&T has been a good match-up for me for the 2 years I've played the deck, and I've been on a losing streak against it the last 2-3 tournaments. Unfortunate but it happens. Game 2 all 4 of my Bridges were in my last 12 cards of the deck.
I didn't get to Force that much. It wasn't that I never had an extra blue card in my hand, it was just that it was never in my starting hand. I usually always did start out with a Gitaxian Probe, Narcomoeba, or even a Whirlpool Rider in my starting 8. My opening Dredging usually hit a Force though. But I mean, this is a very small sample of test results though. It was pretty sweet when it did come up. I was able to stop a blow out from removing 2 of my Bridges from my yard, which the proceeding zombie horde won the game promoptly after. I also was able to counter 1 Grave hate card in the night. Better one than none.
After sideboarding the blue deck does feel clunkier. Dredging Forces are dead dredges especially when you could be dredging away the Ichorid fodder that you sided out. But it was nice to have more reactive tools than just Cabal Therapy and Chancellor. The night ended up 3-1, with me at 4th out of 15. I will be testing it out much more. I think one of the better starting hands for blue (after draw, before discard) was:
2 Gitaxian Probe, 1 Narcomoeba, 1 Force of Will, 1 Phantasmagorian, 2 Dredgers, 1 Bridge
It was pretty much the ideal hand with the blue version, as you discard the Phantasmagorian, using the ability to discard the 2 dredgers and bridge, and can hold up a Force of Will with a Narcoemoeba while going crazy on your Probes. The only way it could of gotten better was -1 Gitaxian and +1 Street Wraith, thus ending an End of Turn cycle/dredge so turn 2 Ichorid's or Nether Shadows are possible (which can also set up the very rare but very fun turn 2 kill)
ex-Moderator
Legacy love.
Once you get those Shoals in there your odds will improve.
I'm a fan of Ghast/Dakmor > it's quite a solid way to play the deck given the amount of things like Thalia that kills our combo turn.
Could see some interesting lines of play here, but;
I'm not convinced that the green here is really adding much, given that you'd need both an Arbor/forest (of 6 = 41% chance) and a Claim (of 4 = 36% chance) in your opener, which has a terribly unlikely chance of both happening, of about 15% in a hand of 8.
4 Bloodghast
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Dryad Arbor
3 Ichorid
3 River Kelpie
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
Lands (4)
4 Dakmor Salvage
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Nature's Claim
2 Disrupting Shoal
2 Forest
Cheers!
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/vintage-daily-2015-07-16
It worked really well for me in my first Vintage try, I expect it to be worth running in any really grindy Dredge deck, despite the drawbacks
@Tom: You haven't optimized any of your three sideboard plans (totally free stuff, green enchant destruction, hand-pitching blue stuff) but I like all three as the start of a more focused sideboard plan
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
I have stumbled upon this and its been hella fun to goldfish. The creator thinks its the more resilient manaless dredge list too (due to being able to sideboard Forces, Natures Claims, and Disrupting Shoal). From what I have goldfished, you are giving up the autowin possibility of Balustrade Spy to be a little more resilient. It does, however seem to go off on about the same turn, but instead of through Balustrade Spy, you use River Kelpie instead. Kelpie is INSANE in this deck.
The List:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9947&d=257399&f=LE
He wrote about his tournament experience and a little about the deck here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29336-Primer-Manaless-Dredge/page9
Modern UMerfolkU
Legacy UMerfolkU
Standard XWhatever's GoodX
The blue version on the front page runs 3 force of will main & 1 in the board. Could you get by with 2 maindeck? Or is that not enough to warrant ditching the spy for whirlpool rider?
Also could vengeful pharaoh (from the vintage post 2 posts up) be a real thing in legacy? Seems like it might be useful against decks that have a very small board presence. Reanimator maybe?
I think everybody saw the dis-synergy with Bridge from Below and decided not to test the card. I think that was a mistake.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
1) If I don't currently have access to Disrupting Shoal; isn't Whirlpool Drake strictly better than Whirlpool Rider? I would assume people are running Rider over Drake for the sole purpose of using it with Disrupting Shoal to hit cards like Rest in Peace and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2) Does running Whirlpool Drake or Whirlpool Rider mean usually playing less aggressively with Phantasmagorian? It makes it seem less good to discard Phantasmagorian turn 1 and then use it to pitch 6 cards.
3) Along those lines has anyone tried Sphinx of Lost Truths in the blue package? Not sure what the average card draw will be with Whirlpool Rider, but the Sphinx of Lost Truths seems interesting with the guaranteed 3 draw and benefits of discarding afterward.
4) Has anyone tried Serum Powder as maybe a 1-of? I know vintage runs a full playset.
Sorry for all the questions. I have been running the "traditional Spy build". I am happy with it however want to expand to have more of a plan game2. I like the idea of dropping in my force of wills. There doesn't seem to be that much info on the blue type. I tried youtube but most the commentators on games are not dredge experts; and most deck-techs are on the spy version.
is it still viable regarding there's new x cost guy in origins
Hangarback Walker
Yeah, if you're not on Disrupting Shoal you want a Sphinx or River Kelpie, something like that. I would not run a bigger Whirlpool creature.
People have experimented with Serum Powder. You're just trying to find a dredger, so Serum Powder is pretty low value for us. "Manaless" builds with Lion's Eye Diamond and flashback spells run Serum Powder because they need to actually sculpt their opening hand. In Vintage the deck is vastly enhanced when you open with Bazaar of Baghdad, so Serum Powder is key to competing with other Vintage-level decks.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/