I ran into this playing at the SCGs. Manaless shines bright like a diamond when people don't know about Manaless Dredge. That being said, what I have found is Manaless Dredge is now common place. Mostly due to the price. I played two SCG last year and placed just outside the top 16 each time. Both times I was one Manaless deck out of 2-3 in the room of 300+. Earlier this year I played 6 Rounds, before dropping, and didn't run into a person that didn't instinctively know how to play against Manaless. One was a Manaless player playing Reanimator that day, and the other five have friends in there playgroups that play Manaless. After walking the room I found at least 5 Manaless players other than myself. It is hard to be the unknown when eveyone knows who we are.
After three years of Manaless I have made the Switch to LED Dredge and I'm not looking back.
I looked into it a few months back and Balustrade Spy Manaless was actually the dominant build of Legacy Dredge in large tournament* top finishes (this can be affected by pilot skill and meta representation in unpredictable ways, so I prefer to take Top 8s at face value). There were 5 Manaless builds in the Balustrade Spy era with high finishes (4 with Spy, with a unanimous 55 of 60 card choices and 59+ of the 75 unanimous), and 5 finishes I could find in that same era for LED Dredge. The LED decks were split across a variety of sub-builds. I think it's fair to say from these results that Manaless is viable (insofar as Dredge generally is viable) and that LEDless probably is not (insofar as Faithless Looting + LED presents you with a faster, more consistent deck).
With a couple Top8 finishes last week, LED Dredge may have taken back the lead in appearances by a narrow margin. I don't think this is really definitive proof of a major shift - more likely the local metagame in D.C. or the SCG circuit metagame is slightly more friendly to the LED version at the moment.
So I'm looking to start upping my game for the GP in November. I've played a good deal with straight up Balustrade Spy fearless dredge almost even as a budget build, but I'm looking to invest more into it to try and build something that's going to be more competitive. It looks like a lot of the lists that have won, have run Grisselbrand and dryad arbor, with a green package so that feels solid to me, however reading over the last 10 pages or so of this thread makes it sound like people really like the force version. What is the general suggestion for a version of the deck that doesn't auto fold to RIP/cage but is still consistently powerful? I'm willing to put in the time in the next two months to learn how to play whatever version is suggested so while difficulty of play is something I'd probably take into consideration, all it would mean for me is I'd have to play more, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Legacy GP practice can put the rest of my life on hold
These are LEDless Dredge, and belong in the Mana Dredge thread. I assume in your mind these are hybrid lists? In which you draw, discard, dredge and then use blue draw spells to speed you up?
As for feedback, LEDless and hybrid lists are pretty questionable. The reason Manaless is almost as fast as LED dredge is that rather than run land+spell to draw 2 cards, we can just run 2 free single-card draws, or more graveyard components so that fewer draws are needed. With your build you have the inconsistency of spell-based dredge plus the draw/hand-size reliance of Manaless. I don't see the value here.
Yeah i guess those should be in the mana dredge thread. But the point of running the hybrid lists was to be able to fight hate,no question manaless is better game 1, however, i'm actually starting to doubt the effectiveness of fighting hate. I also feel like running an anti-hate package in the SB in manaless just screws up your balustrade spy combo. Even with one land, we're putting our money on that land being far down or already played for us to win. (if we're going to try to fight hate in a manaless list, we should probbably use elvish spirit guide and lotus petal so that we don't screw with thee spy.) So it seems like an anti-hate package is already inconsistent in that you have to draw the anti-hate, and also it requires you to run a less consistent build, either in the form of mana dredge or compromising the effectiveness of your deck by siding in so many cards. Seems to me like there are 2 viable options here.
Option 1: run fearless manaless dredge (in that you hope they mulligan for hate and then don't get it, thereby guaranteeing you a win). Your sideboard would look something like this:
can you play phantasmagorian's ability at any time you could play an instant?
Yes
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Standard Decks: B Mono Black Aggro B
Modern Decks: G Infect G G Stompy! G
In Progress: BGR Living End (Modern) BGR U Tron (Modern) U BW Tokens (Modern) BW WUBRG Manaless Dredge (Legacy) WUBRG UBR Nekusar, the Mindrazer (EDH) UBR
can you play phantasmagorian's ability at any time you could play an instant?
Yes
A general "best" first turn for a total fearless build involves discarding phantasmagorian at the end of your turn. Then end of their second turn activating it and then cycling street wraith for a dredge and then, with the phantasmagorian trigger still on the stack, discard another 3 cards putting your dredger back in your yard. On your turn 2 you're then set up to dredge your heart out and should also have something on the battlefield.
Check out the primer tips and tricks section. There's a LOT of good stuff in there.
And on the subject of grafdigger's cage, that card isn't played much because its hate is so broad that it can easily hinder the deck it is used in. More common are things like relic of progenitus and tormod's crypt. However, we can use leyline of sanctity against that, and if we're lucky we could even unmask oureslf so we don't lose a turn
All in all, i would run leyline and unmask over removal. And you'll still have slots left for other cards.
Cage is the #1 sideboarded card in all of Legacy. Where are you getting your numbers from?
And on the subject of grafdigger's cage, that card isn't played much because its hate is so broad that it can easily hinder the deck it is used in. More common are things like relic of progenitus and tormod's crypt. However, we can use leyline of sanctity against that, and if we're lucky we could even unmask oureslf so we don't lose a turn
All in all, i would run leyline and unmask over removal. And you'll still have slots left for other cards.
Cage is the #1 sideboarded card in all of Legacy. Where are you getting your numbers from?
Agreed, out of a total of 14 matches I saw Cage in 5 of them. And I'm certain in many of the other ones, they had a copy somewhere. Death & Taxes was running both RIP and Cage and only a single person I played against admitted to having no graveyard hate whatsoever. It costs 1 mana, stop grave based decks, stunts storm, and hurts GSZ and Natural Order decks likes Elves, Maverick, and NO Bant all without hurting Goyf. I rarely see a non-white sideboard that doesn't have at least 1 copy.
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"If we don't know what we are doing, the enemy certainly can't anticipate our future actions!"
-Anonymous
Ok, well I was just saying that grafdigger's cage can hinder many decks so decks like elves wouldn't run it. No need to get mad. It depends on the metagame. I did list 2 options, if you think that artifact removal is the better option then so be it. run ancient grudge and nature's claim along with lotus petal and elvish spirit guide. You can still use balustrade spy that way, and you won't need to use removal more than once, probably.
Also, seeing as we have cbaal therapy, what are some staples that can help us identify the type of deck we are playing game 1?
The easiest way to determine what deck you are playing against is to see their manabase. What lands do they have in their hands/have already played?
Knowing what color(s) you are playing against immediately narrows down the field. From there you should be easily able to differentiate what deck you are playing against by the rest of their hand. The only times I've ever had no idea what I was playing against after a Probe or Therapy was if they had kept all lands and cantrips but even then I can tell what colors they are likely to be and I would put them on some type of Combo deck, as they are trying to sculpt their hand.
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"If we don't know what we are doing, the enemy certainly can't anticipate our future actions!"
-Anonymous
Canadian Threshold
Death and Taxes
Patriot Aggro
U/R Delver
BUG Delver
U/W Miracles
Stoneblade/Death Blade
High Tide
Jund (Some lists)
Just to name a couple off the top of my head. Almost all of those decks being Tier 1.
Ok but what about deathrite shaman and friends? Look im not saying it's necessarily a bad idea to run anti-hate, but it might make your deck worse when you side in 15 cards. Whereas with contagion you only have to side in 4 cards. i might test out the effectiveness of an anti-hate sideboard against a T1 graf cage and see if the deck can still win with reasonable consistency.
EDIT: Ok i did some playtesting and here are my first impressions.
First of all, here's my decklist:
Against artifacts, i did: +1 whole sideboard, -3 urza's bauble, -3 chancellor of the annex, -3 gitaxian probe, -2 nether shadow, -1 shambling shell, -2 cabal therapy, -1 golgari thug, -1 phantasmagorian.
Against enchanments i did the same but with ancient grudge out and golgari thug and gitaxian probe in.
Also some questins about mulliganing and card odds: 1) if you mulligan, do you put your hand on the bottom of your library and then take new cards, or do you have to shuffle first?
2) If they're aggressively mulliganing for a hate card, what point do they usually get it at? 4 cards? 5 cards? 6 cards?
3) Are you allowed to reactively mulligan; that is, mulligan only if they choose to mulligan? That way you could wait and see if they stop mulliganing (and assume they found their hate) and then mulligan yourself.
4) can you mulligan after a leyline of the void is put down?
@ ajfirecracker, you could add this to the tips and tricks section: you can't use ichorid as a guy for nether shadow because ichorid comes back at the beginnning of the upkeep and nether shadow comes back at the end.
Ok but what about deathrite shaman and friends? Look im not saying it's necessarily a bad idea to run anti-hate, but it might make your deck worse when you side in 15 cards. Whereas with contagion you only have to side in 4 cards. i might test out the effectiveness of an anti-hate sideboard against a T1 graf cage and see if the deck can still win with reasonable consistency.
I don't think I have sided out a full 15 and sided in another 15 for manaless in the years I've been playing it in competition > that's including the full green anti-hate sideboard and the more recent blue side running Force of Will.
In testing, sure, we do that, but not in a match.
As a deck, manaless is all about synergy, changing up the deck a lot will always have an effect on speed and consistency.
Personally, I find anti-hate a must, but how much you bring in and what you bring in will greatly depend on what you are playing against.
@ ajfirecracker, you could add this to the tips and tricks section: you can't use ichorid as a guy for nether shadow because ichorid comes back at the beginnning of the upkeep and nether shadow comes back at the end.
Many of us run several Contagions in the main deck. Also Street Wraith or Phantasmagorian both outrun him. DRS is annoying, but not a game ending card.
You might want to slow down and take some take some time to look into the cards before you advise what should be added to a primer. Read Ichorid and Nether Shadows oracle text.
I don't think I have sided out a full 15 and sided in another 15 for manaless in the years I've been playing it in competition > that's including the full green anti-hate sideboard and the more recent blue side running Force of Will.
In testing, sure, we do that, but not in a match.
As a deck, manaless is all about synergy, changing up the deck a lot will always have an effect on speed and consistency.
Personally, I find anti-hate a must, but how much you bring in and what you bring in will greatly depend on what you are playing against.
That's interesting. Why don't you use all of your sideboard?
Many of us run several Contagions in the main deck. Also Street Wraith or Phantasmagorian both outrun him. DRS is annoying, but not a game ending card.
You might want to slow down and take some take some time to look into the cards before you advise what should be added to a primer. Read Ichorid and Nether Shadows oracle text.
What do you mean by oracle text? Also, I haven't seen a single contagion maindeck in anyone's list. I do see what you're saying about DRS not being a huge problem, though. And i guess yixlid jailer isn't really run, right?
EDIT: Are both versions of lotus petal legal in legacy?
1: It is incredibly rare that someone would bring in all 15 cards of their sideboard for one match. I usually bring in 4-6 of my sideboard cards. The point of a sideboard is a tool box against other decks, not to completely change your deck between games.
2: The Oracle text of a card is its current Legal text as not all cards work as printed due to errata. Key example, both Ichorid and Nether Shadow now trigger at the beginning of the upkeep not the end. The Oracle text of a card can be found on Gatherer. This is something even beginning players should know.
4: Yes, a reprint of a Legacy legal card is Legacy legal. You can play both printings of Lotus Petal, Tempest and From the Vault, but still only 4 total, just as you can play with any of the 26 the different printings of Giant Growth
Your questions make me seriously wonder how long you've been playing Magic as many of these things are common knowledge.
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"If we don't know what we are doing, the enemy certainly can't anticipate our future actions!"
-Anonymous
For carysh's sake;
Everyone was a newbie at some time.
It's cool to ask heaps of questions > but it's always a great idea to read through this thread from the start to finish. Get over to "the source" and read through the manaless thread there aswell.
Then goldfish this deck a heap of times to understand why certain cards are in the deck, and why some in particular are so very important to make the deck work consistently.
I feel the hate I fear most is Void, RiP & Cage, in that order. I don't fear anything else than these three, so my anti-hate is focussed here.
After moving cities, I have rarely been able to play Legacy these days. So I was pretty stoked to be able to play a GPT recently.
For a city that has no Legacy scene, enough people were able to scrounge up and borrow cards so 14 people showed up.
2-0 Storm/ANT
2-0 Affinity
I.D. Death & Taxes
I.D. Nic Fit
Top 8
1-2 Affinity
I didn't get to play much Legacy, but unlike other decks/formats, this is definitely a deck where I rather have my opponent not know what I'm playing if we play in the top 8 later, so I took the I.D. and chose not to play it out for fun. In testing D&T has been a pretty good match-up, so I figured I wouldn't let him know what I was on since I knew we were both locked for top 8.
Affinity is a great match-up, as I clearly beat him in the Swiss, but in the top he was able to hit RiP turn 1 both games 2 & 3 when he put me on the play. Game 3 I decided to side into 4 Mindbreak Trap since his RiP would usually be his 3rd spell played if he gets it turn 1 (Artifact land, Mox Opal, Memnite, RIP) but I didn't hit the Trap and was hoping he didn't hit the RIP, but he did. I never mulligan with the deck, but I figured he didn't hit it the first 3 turns I pretty much win the game anyway. I sat on my decisions for a while and decided to not Time Walk myself, but it backfired. Who knows, maybe I wouldn't of hit it anyway. Besides RiP that deck can practically not beat us since we can combo faster than they can dish out 20, plus if we hit more than 1 Bridge we can become the faster aggro deck, but hey, we all have those days.
I was just REALLY surprised I was able to beat Storm 2-0. That match-up seems atrocious for us, and he's a confident player, but everything that needed to happen did. Felt good!
Rest of the field was Burn, Burn, Bant, Sneak and Show, another Storm, etc.
1: It is incredibly rare that someone would bring in all 15 cards of their sideboard for one match. I usually bring in 4-6 of my sideboard cards. The point of a sideboard is a tool box against other decks, not to completely change your deck between games.
2: The Oracle text of a card is its current Legal text as not all cards work as printed due to errata. Key example, both Ichorid and Nether Shadow now trigger at the beginning of the upkeep not the end. The Oracle text of a card can be found on Gatherer. This is something even beginning players should know.
4: Yes, a reprint of a Legacy legal card is Legacy legal. You can play both printings of Lotus Petal, Tempest and From the Vault, but still only 4 total, just as you can play with any of the 26 the different printings of Giant Growth
Your questions make me seriously wonder how long you've been playing Magic as many of these things are common knowledge.
I have been playing for 4 years. And first of all, most of the earlier comments had the entire sideboard coming in when you run a full anti-hate package. And about the Oracle text, I have heard of that before, I simply didn't know it was called Oracle text and almost everyone I play says that my elvish champion foil is a lord not an elf and I try to tell them that it takes on the original text but they say it's not true, so after a while I figured it wasn't true. Third of all, I don't think you read my comment thoroughly: I said "Yixlid Jailer isn't really run." I've been playing magic for a while, i just hvaen't been to many tournaments.
Btw slave, I have already read the entire thread, and I've goldfished the deck at least 200 times.
OK so I'd appreciate it if someone can help me out here since I'm new to playing Dredge - though I understand how the deck operates. And feel free to move the post if I'm in the wrong spot..
So in November there's a Legacy GP in New Jersey I plan on attending. I'm not up on Legacy in terms of what decks are good and what decks are good against them. This is what I've put together so far:
Free creatures (16): 4 each Bridge, Ichorid, Nether Shadow, Narcomoeba
Dredgers (16): 4 each GGT, Stinky, Thug, Shambling Shell
Disruption (8): 4 each Chancellor of the Annex and Cabal Therapy
Cycling (8): 4 each Street Wraith and Gitaxian Probe
Discard (8): 4 each Phantasmagorian and Gigapede
Reanimators (4): 4 Dread Return
As I understand, the Gigapedes are pretty much phased out. That leaves me with four slots to play with. I haven't played a lot of Dredge but I've realized at least one thing: the Balustrade/Flayer kill requires at least three Dread Returns to go off. I'm a bit concerned with that and much prefer the "old-school" kills that relied on only having one or two DR's such as Flame-Kin Zealot.
I'd really appreciate any constructive suggestions. Thanks!
Mindstab Thrull
Nommin ur sanities since 1864 BSE (Before the Sarpadian Empires)
um. you didn't have any DR targets in that list. I also don't know why you run gigapede, i think he kinda sucks.
Personally, I would take out 2 shambling shells because if you study card odds you'll see that those last 2 shambling shells are adding almost nothing tot your probability of getting an opening hand dredger.
And about the balustrade spy combo. Once you DR the spy it's game over. You have everything in your graveyard, how can you lose? And you can actually win on the next turn with a total of only 2 Drs because of all those guys you bring back deal damage from flayer. That would probably only happen if they counter 2 of your DRs. But remember you could always reanimate a golgari thug and then sac him to a cabal therapy for an extra turn. Or if it's a consistent problem for you, side in a worldspine wurm--he's also good vs. show and tell. But you can do just about anything once you've got your whole deck in your graveyard.
Do you have a sideboard yet?
[quote from="gibbousm »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/combo/181899-manaless-dredge?comment=1146"] ... The point of a sideboard is a tool box against other decks, not to completely change your deck between games.
I feel the hate I fear most is Void, RiP & Cage, in that order. I don't fear anything else than these three, so my anti-hate is focussed here.
I actually think RIP is worse than LOTV if you're running an anti-hate package.
Also, I still don't understand why you wouldn't side in your whole anti-hate package. Getting a dredger, mana source, and destroy spell is already so inconsistent that i would never side in anything less than the whole package (unless i'm up against an enchantment, then i wouldn't side in ancient grudge)
I actually think RIP is worse than LOTV if you're running an anti-hate package.
Also, I still don't understand why you wouldn't side in your whole anti-hate package. Getting a dredger, mana source, and destroy spell is already so inconsistent that i would never side in anything less than the whole package (unless i'm up against an enchantment, then i wouldn't side in ancient grudge)
After three years of Manaless I have made the Switch to LED Dredge and I'm not looking back.
With a couple Top8 finishes last week, LED Dredge may have taken back the lead in appearances by a narrow margin. I don't think this is really definitive proof of a major shift - more likely the local metagame in D.C. or the SCG circuit metagame is slightly more friendly to the LED version at the moment.
*Top 8, 100+ players
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Yeah i guess those should be in the mana dredge thread. But the point of running the hybrid lists was to be able to fight hate,no question manaless is better game 1, however, i'm actually starting to doubt the effectiveness of fighting hate. I also feel like running an anti-hate package in the SB in manaless just screws up your balustrade spy combo. Even with one land, we're putting our money on that land being far down or already played for us to win. (if we're going to try to fight hate in a manaless list, we should probbably use elvish spirit guide and lotus petal so that we don't screw with thee spy.) So it seems like an anti-hate package is already inconsistent in that you have to draw the anti-hate, and also it requires you to run a less consistent build, either in the form of mana dredge or compromising the effectiveness of your deck by siding in so many cards. Seems to me like there are 2 viable options here.
Option 1: run fearless manaless dredge (in that you hope they mulligan for hate and then don't get it, thereby guaranteeing you a win). Your sideboard would look something like this:
4 unmask
3 leyline of sanctity (or mindbreak trap)
1 worldspine wurm
3 noxious revival
Option 2: Run manaless with an anti-hate package, which would look like this:
3 ancient grudge
3 lotus petal
4 elvish spirit guide
1 worldspine wurm
The problem with this is that we have no creature removal, that means we can't fight creature hate.
Thoughts?
Legacy:
Manaless Dredge http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/phantasmagorian-manaless-dredge/
Goblins http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dont-know-how-to-count-no-more-legacy-goblins/
ad nauseam tendrils http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-04-15-ant-budget/
Modern:
elves http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/elf-pump-30000-dmg-possible/
burn. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-deck-that-made-history/
infect http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/infect-win-2-turns/
Legacy:
Manaless Dredge http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/phantasmagorian-manaless-dredge/
Goblins http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dont-know-how-to-count-no-more-legacy-goblins/
ad nauseam tendrils http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-04-15-ant-budget/
Modern:
elves http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/elf-pump-30000-dmg-possible/
burn. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-deck-that-made-history/
infect http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/infect-win-2-turns/
Yes
Standard Decks:
B Mono Black Aggro B
Modern Decks:
G Infect G
G Stompy! G
In Progress:
BGR Living End (Modern) BGR
U Tron (Modern) U
BW Tokens (Modern) BW
WUBRG Manaless Dredge (Legacy) WUBRG
UBR Nekusar, the Mindrazer (EDH) UBR
A general "best" first turn for a total fearless build involves discarding phantasmagorian at the end of your turn. Then end of their second turn activating it and then cycling street wraith for a dredge and then, with the phantasmagorian trigger still on the stack, discard another 3 cards putting your dredger back in your yard. On your turn 2 you're then set up to dredge your heart out and should also have something on the battlefield.
Check out the primer tips and tricks section. There's a LOT of good stuff in there.
Cage is the #1 sideboarded card in all of Legacy. Where are you getting your numbers from?
Agreed, out of a total of 14 matches I saw Cage in 5 of them. And I'm certain in many of the other ones, they had a copy somewhere. Death & Taxes was running both RIP and Cage and only a single person I played against admitted to having no graveyard hate whatsoever. It costs 1 mana, stop grave based decks, stunts storm, and hurts GSZ and Natural Order decks likes Elves, Maverick, and NO Bant all without hurting Goyf. I rarely see a non-white sideboard that doesn't have at least 1 copy.
-Anonymous
Also, seeing as we have cbaal therapy, what are some staples that can help us identify the type of deck we are playing game 1?
Legacy:
Manaless Dredge http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/phantasmagorian-manaless-dredge/
Goblins http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dont-know-how-to-count-no-more-legacy-goblins/
ad nauseam tendrils http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-04-15-ant-budget/
Modern:
elves http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/elf-pump-30000-dmg-possible/
burn. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-deck-that-made-history/
infect http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/infect-win-2-turns/
Canadian Threshold
Death and Taxes
Patriot Aggro
U/R Delver
BUG Delver
U/W Miracles
Stoneblade/Death Blade
High Tide
Jund (Some lists)
Just to name a couple off the top of my head. Almost all of those decks being Tier 1.
Knowing what color(s) you are playing against immediately narrows down the field. From there you should be easily able to differentiate what deck you are playing against by the rest of their hand. The only times I've ever had no idea what I was playing against after a Probe or Therapy was if they had kept all lands and cantrips but even then I can tell what colors they are likely to be and I would put them on some type of Combo deck, as they are trying to sculpt their hand.
-Anonymous
Ok but what about deathrite shaman and friends? Look im not saying it's necessarily a bad idea to run anti-hate, but it might make your deck worse when you side in 15 cards. Whereas with contagion you only have to side in 4 cards. i might test out the effectiveness of an anti-hate sideboard against a T1 graf cage and see if the deck can still win with reasonable consistency.
EDIT: Ok i did some playtesting and here are my first impressions.
First of all, here's my decklist:
4 street wraith
4 gitaxian probe
3 urza's bauble
3 chancellor of the annex
1 shambling shell
4 golgari grave-troll
4 stinkweed imp
4 golgari thug
4 bridge from below
4 cabal therapy
4 dread return
4 narcomoeba
4 ichorid
4 nether shadow
4 balustrade spy
1 flayer of the hatebound
4 nature's claim
3 ancient grudge
4 lotus petal
4 elvish spirit guide
Against artifacts, i did: +1 whole sideboard, -3 urza's bauble, -3 chancellor of the annex, -3 gitaxian probe, -2 nether shadow, -1 shambling shell, -2 cabal therapy, -1 golgari thug, -1 phantasmagorian.
Against enchanments i did the same but with ancient grudge out and golgari thug and gitaxian probe in.
Here are the average turn win vs. different hate cards so far:
grafdigger's cage: turn 4-5
leyline of the void: turn 5
rest in peace: turn 6
relic of progenitus: turn 4
Also some questins about mulliganing and card odds: 1) if you mulligan, do you put your hand on the bottom of your library and then take new cards, or do you have to shuffle first?
2) If they're aggressively mulliganing for a hate card, what point do they usually get it at? 4 cards? 5 cards? 6 cards?
3) Are you allowed to reactively mulligan; that is, mulligan only if they choose to mulligan? That way you could wait and see if they stop mulliganing (and assume they found their hate) and then mulligan yourself.
4) can you mulligan after a leyline of the void is put down?
@ ajfirecracker, you could add this to the tips and tricks section: you can't use ichorid as a guy for nether shadow because ichorid comes back at the beginnning of the upkeep and nether shadow comes back at the end.
Legacy:
Manaless Dredge http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/phantasmagorian-manaless-dredge/
Goblins http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dont-know-how-to-count-no-more-legacy-goblins/
ad nauseam tendrils http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-04-15-ant-budget/
Modern:
elves http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/elf-pump-30000-dmg-possible/
burn. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-deck-that-made-history/
infect http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/infect-win-2-turns/
I don't think I have sided out a full 15 and sided in another 15 for manaless in the years I've been playing it in competition > that's including the full green anti-hate sideboard and the more recent blue side running Force of Will.
In testing, sure, we do that, but not in a match.
As a deck, manaless is all about synergy, changing up the deck a lot will always have an effect on speed and consistency.
Personally, I find anti-hate a must, but how much you bring in and what you bring in will greatly depend on what you are playing against.
Many of us run several Contagions in the main deck. Also Street Wraith or Phantasmagorian both outrun him. DRS is annoying, but not a game ending card.
You might want to slow down and take some take some time to look into the cards before you advise what should be added to a primer. Read Ichorid and Nether Shadows oracle text.
Boom
That's interesting. Why don't you use all of your sideboard?
What do you mean by oracle text? Also, I haven't seen a single contagion maindeck in anyone's list. I do see what you're saying about DRS not being a huge problem, though. And i guess yixlid jailer isn't really run, right?
EDIT: Are both versions of lotus petal legal in legacy?
Legacy:
Manaless Dredge http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/phantasmagorian-manaless-dredge/
Goblins http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dont-know-how-to-count-no-more-legacy-goblins/
ad nauseam tendrils http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-04-15-ant-budget/
Modern:
elves http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/elf-pump-30000-dmg-possible/
burn. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-deck-that-made-history/
infect http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/infect-win-2-turns/
2: The Oracle text of a card is its current Legal text as not all cards work as printed due to errata. Key example, both Ichorid and Nether Shadow now trigger at the beginning of the upkeep not the end. The Oracle text of a card can be found on Gatherer. This is something even beginning players should know.
3: No one plays Yixlid Jailer, the most commonly played pieces of graveyard hate are Grafdigger's Cage, Rest in Peace, Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, and Leyline of the Void
4: Yes, a reprint of a Legacy legal card is Legacy legal. You can play both printings of Lotus Petal, Tempest and From the Vault, but still only 4 total, just as you can play with any of the 26 the different printings of Giant Growth
Your questions make me seriously wonder how long you've been playing Magic as many of these things are common knowledge.
-Anonymous
For carysh's sake;
Everyone was a newbie at some time.
It's cool to ask heaps of questions > but it's always a great idea to read through this thread from the start to finish. Get over to "the source" and read through the manaless thread there aswell.
Then goldfish this deck a heap of times to understand why certain cards are in the deck, and why some in particular are so very important to make the deck work consistently.
I feel the hate I fear most is Void, RiP & Cage, in that order. I don't fear anything else than these three, so my anti-hate is focussed here.
For a city that has no Legacy scene, enough people were able to scrounge up and borrow cards so 14 people showed up.
2-0 Storm/ANT
2-0 Affinity
I.D. Death & Taxes
I.D. Nic Fit
Top 8
1-2 Affinity
I didn't get to play much Legacy, but unlike other decks/formats, this is definitely a deck where I rather have my opponent not know what I'm playing if we play in the top 8 later, so I took the I.D. and chose not to play it out for fun. In testing D&T has been a pretty good match-up, so I figured I wouldn't let him know what I was on since I knew we were both locked for top 8.
Affinity is a great match-up, as I clearly beat him in the Swiss, but in the top he was able to hit RiP turn 1 both games 2 & 3 when he put me on the play. Game 3 I decided to side into 4 Mindbreak Trap since his RiP would usually be his 3rd spell played if he gets it turn 1 (Artifact land, Mox Opal, Memnite, RIP) but I didn't hit the Trap and was hoping he didn't hit the RIP, but he did. I never mulligan with the deck, but I figured he didn't hit it the first 3 turns I pretty much win the game anyway. I sat on my decisions for a while and decided to not Time Walk myself, but it backfired. Who knows, maybe I wouldn't of hit it anyway. Besides RiP that deck can practically not beat us since we can combo faster than they can dish out 20, plus if we hit more than 1 Bridge we can become the faster aggro deck, but hey, we all have those days.
I was just REALLY surprised I was able to beat Storm 2-0. That match-up seems atrocious for us, and he's a confident player, but everything that needed to happen did. Felt good!
Rest of the field was Burn, Burn, Bant, Sneak and Show, another Storm, etc.
ex-Moderator
Legacy love.
I have been playing for 4 years. And first of all, most of the earlier comments had the entire sideboard coming in when you run a full anti-hate package. And about the Oracle text, I have heard of that before, I simply didn't know it was called Oracle text and almost everyone I play says that my elvish champion foil is a lord not an elf and I try to tell them that it takes on the original text but they say it's not true, so after a while I figured it wasn't true. Third of all, I don't think you read my comment thoroughly: I said "Yixlid Jailer isn't really run." I've been playing magic for a while, i just hvaen't been to many tournaments.
Btw slave, I have already read the entire thread, and I've goldfished the deck at least 200 times.
Legacy:
Manaless Dredge http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/phantasmagorian-manaless-dredge/
Goblins http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dont-know-how-to-count-no-more-legacy-goblins/
ad nauseam tendrils http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-04-15-ant-budget/
Modern:
elves http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/elf-pump-30000-dmg-possible/
burn. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-deck-that-made-history/
infect http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/infect-win-2-turns/
No worries.
So in November there's a Legacy GP in New Jersey I plan on attending. I'm not up on Legacy in terms of what decks are good and what decks are good against them. This is what I've put together so far:
Free creatures (16): 4 each Bridge, Ichorid, Nether Shadow, Narcomoeba
Dredgers (16): 4 each GGT, Stinky, Thug, Shambling Shell
Disruption (8): 4 each Chancellor of the Annex and Cabal Therapy
Cycling (8): 4 each Street Wraith and Gitaxian Probe
Discard (8): 4 each Phantasmagorian and Gigapede
Reanimators (4): 4 Dread Return
As I understand, the Gigapedes are pretty much phased out. That leaves me with four slots to play with. I haven't played a lot of Dredge but I've realized at least one thing: the Balustrade/Flayer kill requires at least three Dread Returns to go off. I'm a bit concerned with that and much prefer the "old-school" kills that relied on only having one or two DR's such as Flame-Kin Zealot.
I'd really appreciate any constructive suggestions. Thanks!
Mindstab Thrull
Nommin ur sanities since 1864 BSE (Before the Sarpadian Empires)
Personally, I would take out 2 shambling shells because if you study card odds you'll see that those last 2 shambling shells are adding almost nothing tot your probability of getting an opening hand dredger.
And about the balustrade spy combo. Once you DR the spy it's game over. You have everything in your graveyard, how can you lose? And you can actually win on the next turn with a total of only 2 Drs because of all those guys you bring back deal damage from flayer. That would probably only happen if they counter 2 of your DRs. But remember you could always reanimate a golgari thug and then sac him to a cabal therapy for an extra turn. Or if it's a consistent problem for you, side in a worldspine wurm--he's also good vs. show and tell. But you can do just about anything once you've got your whole deck in your graveyard.
Do you have a sideboard yet?
EDIT:
I actually think RIP is worse than LOTV if you're running an anti-hate package.
Also, I still don't understand why you wouldn't side in your whole anti-hate package. Getting a dredger, mana source, and destroy spell is already so inconsistent that i would never side in anything less than the whole package (unless i'm up against an enchantment, then i wouldn't side in ancient grudge)
Legacy:
Manaless Dredge http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/phantasmagorian-manaless-dredge/
Goblins http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dont-know-how-to-count-no-more-legacy-goblins/
ad nauseam tendrils http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-04-15-ant-budget/
Modern:
elves http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/elf-pump-30000-dmg-possible/
burn. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-deck-that-made-history/
infect http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/infect-win-2-turns/
Well it depends, like I said.
I'm running the blue side when I've played Manaless lately, which has the advantage of running Force of Will in the main.
EDIT:
My usual side is;
Disrupting Shoal, Mindbreak Trap, Contagion, Faerie Macabre.