At the moment its only an idea. I don't test it. But now comes to my mind as a posible side plan against the hate, because it can be casted from hand. With a tormods or relic in play u don't want to dread returned a sphinx, u don't have to overcommit. It likely to have an ichorid, nether shadow, and a bloodghast in your grave and your opponent decide not to crack the tormod's because this scenario is not scary enought. Then you sac your 3 guys... surprise! 9/9 flying, trample. Two turns clock.
Anyway, only a possibility, as a mentioned before, I don't test it yet.
Only ask for a general opinion as a new possibility in a manaless dredge. There are lots of versions of this deck: 8 baubles, gigapede, no gigapede, bloodghast, no bloodghast, 4 shinx, no sphinx. I think it would be easy to find 3 slots.
If you're able to unearth three black creatures, why do you need this guy to win, again? He can only be cast from your hand when your graveyard is functioning just fine.
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I know it seems i little bit risky in the format of swords to plowshares, but if lots of times dread return a big troll it's enough thanks to a previous therapy, it could be work for the demon too. It's a two turns clock, and can be played from hand (quiet easely in a the bloodghast version). On the other hand, you can put zombie tokens if your opponent counter it out.
hmmm its interesting, but it has to be in your opening hand to work out (hence you need like 3 to use it effectively), the problem is that what do you replace?
(also if you DR something, its probably going to be iona or elesh, etc., not a troll)
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Modern UWUW ControlUW UGWSpiritsUGW GHardened ScalesG WGRUKiki PodWGRU [RIP]
hmmm its interesting, but it has to be in your opening hand to work out (hence you need like 3 to use it effectively), the problem is that what do you replace?
(also if you DR something, its probably going to be iona or elesh, etc., not a troll)
No, Demon of Death's Gate is not an interesting card choice. I was being polite before.
This guy is clearly terrible. You can only cast him when you don't need him.
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I was testing this deck for Vintage, really like the Legacy version, and have some thoughts on currently popular DR targets.
Why has Sundering Titan fallen out of favour? I appreciate the build is too tight for Dragon Breath but the big brown LD man is still good.
Sundering Titan is okay, but he's purely disruptive and there are generally better cards for that role. It's a lot more important to hit pseudo-hate lands like The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Glacial Chasm, which makes Woodfall Primus, Terastodon, and Realm Razer generally better. Sundering Titan is older (so it saw play before) and an artifact (so it sees play where that's relevant) but we don't really care. In short, he's been outclassed with time. He's still really good, but hitting only the 5 land types is a huge drawback.
I also can't help but feel that Urabrask the Hidden is better than Flame-Kin Zealot. FKZ is the win-on-the-spot card that requires a decent board or yard presence to "go off". Meanwhile Ura can fill the same role but does not require any kind of extra presence to still be useful, maintaining tempo advantage by denying fresh blockers while still threatening a sudden onrush of zombie tokens which could come at any time. Basically the praetor can be set preemptively whereas FKZ needs to not be countered there and then. The only real counter-arguments I'm seeing are Karakas, which already hits Iona, and that he could be Fireblasted before the combat phase.
Urabrask the Hidden doesn't pump power and toughness. Flame-Kin Zealot either wins on the spot or knocks the opponent to a low enough life total that they can't attack (and thus eventually lose). Since it only takes 2 zombies (or Narcomoeba or Ichorid or whatever) for FKZ to have higher damage, he'll almost always be better.
Furthermore, how would Damia, Sage of Stone fare over Sphinx? Needing it to live a turn really sucks but it basically guarantees seeing your entire deck next upkeep which should be a win.
Sphinx of Lost Truths basically guarantees a win on the spot. Why would you wait a turn? Why would you risk your opponent having removal?
What exactly makes manaless dredge better than mana dredge?
It's nigh-impossible to interact with, and much more resilient to most (but not all) graveyard hate. In particular, it laughs off Extirpate effects even more than regular dredge, and is typically better against Tormod's Crypt effects (except Relic of Progenitus). It's also orders and orders of magnitudes more consistent.
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I understand the P/T boost is not just a fringe benefit, and I agree that FKZ is better in the finisher role, but I think Ura does it almost as well while still having other modes. Being able to come out and beat face in advance of the winning turn is why I think it might be worth consideration, especially because we fear Tormod's Crypt more than say Chain of Vapor. Plus in the games where FKZ isn't enough to win on the spot then you would probably have been better with Ura at that point.
If FKZ is better in the finisher role, then the only argument for playing Ura instead is its "other modes" which are presumably i) a creature to attack the opponent with ii) disrupt the opponent's creatures.
i) Ura is only 4/4 so doesn't compare favorably against Golgari Grave-Troll for just killing the opponent with. Ura has haste but Grave-Troll only needs to be 8/8 and it will deal just as much damage as Ura by the following turn. Getting in for 4 haste damage is really nothing special if it doesn't win you the game that turn. 4/4 is also in Dismember range.
ii) "Creatures your opponents control come into play tapped" isn't really that special, and competes with cards like Blazing Archon and Elesh Norn for disrupting the opponent's creatures - and Ura doesn't compare that favorably to those.
Respectfully, your arguments are fallacious. You are not only looking at cards in a vacuum, but also you are looking at individual traits in a vacuum. Consider the whole package in the analysis.
Lets put all these cards on the same comparison. Flame-Kin Zealot and Blazing Archon are obviously both very bad at what the other one does. Meanwhile Urabrask the Hidden is a happy medium, being almost as good as both while being one card not two.
The point is that last time I checked, this deck is packed and card slots are at a premium. I was merely pointing out a card that covers multiple eventualities as an alternative to free up some space.
The point here is that if you want to argue for Ura, you can't just point out that Ura might not be quite as good as FKZ but it does other stuff, but not compare it to other cards that do other stuff and help with finishing the opponent too.
Blazing Archon
Won't attack for lethal on the turn Ura + hasted zombies might do, but might win you the game nevertheless by shutting down the opponent's attack.
5/6 flyer (out of dismember range)
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
If you already have several creatures that can attack then this might give you the win the turn you DR it but probably will just set you up to win the following turn. -2/-2 is fairly significant in terms of weakening/removal blockers and anything killed by this effect won't come back if Elesh is removed.
4/7 vigilance (out of dismember range, out of double-bolt range)
Golgari Grave-Troll
DR on troll with some zombie friends is often enough to win you the game in a few turns. Probably won't win you the game as quickly as Ura but might do so if the opponent doesn't have any blockers.
Main advantage is you are happy to see it in your opening hand.
Another point on FKZ vs Ura is that if your opponent removes Ura then it's no longer around to provide haste. FKZ's effect is on entering the battlefield.
For those playing FKZ, a good way to test Ura would be to see how many games having Ura instead of FKZ would have still resulted in a win. If it's close to 100%, then perhaps Ura is better.
In truth, Urabrask the Hidden is only better than Flame-Kin Zealot when our opponent is disrupting us somehow. The matchups where we want Flame-Kin Zealot our opponents typically have no disruption.
Also, FKZ needs 6 zombies, UTH needs 8. I frequently find that I have 6-7 zombies when I'm trying to combo out as quickly as possible, which makes UTH markedly worse.
The Kismet effect only matters if you pass the turn with UTH on the table, something you basically never have to do with FKZ. This effect also has basically no impact on whether or not your opponents creatures can do their thing - typically your attackers outnumber their blockers to the point of hilarity. Any creatures your opponent has with tap abilities will generally have summoning sickness, and any creatures they have that can sacrifice themselves ignore tapping as well as summoning sickness.
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I've been testing out the Salvage/Bloodghast package and finding that it plays really nicely with the Sphinx->FKZ plan. You can use your last Sphinx draw on a salvage, which gets you more creatures for the final DR onto FKZ.
Okay - thanks for the help.
I'm trying FunkyMo's build, except +1 Nether Shadow -1 Dakmor Salvage. I think that the the extra Nether Shadow will help getting the combo more consistently.
The Salvages in FunkyMo's build double as dredgers (since that build doesn't play Shambling Shell) so this switch will make the deck less consistent at having a dredger in your opening hand.
FunkyMo's list is exceptionally consistent at comboing out T3. I have yet to dredge a Dakmor Salvageon turn 1, or for that matter, dredge a salvage for any reason other than to have one in my hand to pop Bloodghasts, but I do not trust any less than 16 dredgers. Even in games against Affinity and Zoo where the opponent can put his own creatures into the yard at any given moment to disrupt my bridges, I have been able to combo through by turn 3. Sphinx of Lost Truths is straight DIRTY.
As for Flame-Kin Zealot vs. Urabrask the Hidden, I have found myself needing the extra pump from FKZ to win the game on the spot. I just don't see any reason to run Ura. If you're going to Dread Return something, why would it be something that won't help you keep going? I haven't found myself in a situation where I can cast DR, but I can't continue to dredge. If you have an Ura in your yard, but not a Sphinx, then you are just unlucky, or haven't dredged enough to be considering casting DR.
In my constant struggle against doing actual work, I've compiled the number of graveyard-hate sideboard cards from the MOCS Championship and SCG Open:
<-------- Pittsburgh
which I was unable to attend (:ugh:). The percentages are based on total sideboard slots available: 480 for the top 32 of the MOCS and 240 for the top 16 of the SCG Open. The cards are sorted in descending order of approximate annoyingness.
MOCS 32 (Raw) MOCS 32 (%) SCG: Pitt 16 (Raw) SCG: Pitt 16 (%)
Leyline of the Void 23 4.79% 8 3.33%
Wheel of Sun and Moon 1 0.21% 0 0.00%
Relic of Progenitus 29 6.04% 5 2.08%
Tormod's Crypt 7 1.46% 11 4.58%
Bojuka Bog 1 0.21% 3 1.25%
Nihil Spellbomb 3 0.63% 1 0.42%
Jotun Grunt 0 0.00% 2 0.83%
Extirpate 9 1.88% 0 0.00%
Surgical Extraction 7 1.46% 6 2.50%
Faerie Macabre 3 0.63% 0 0.00%
Total 83 17.29% 36 15.00%
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I forgot to add this to my earlier post, but I have a question about dredging with multiple draws. Say I DR a Sphinx. Do I have to declare my three dredge targets immediately? Or can I dredge the one Grave-Troll in my yard, say that turns up another Grave-Troll, then use that second Troll as my second dredge target, and so on?
I forgot to add this to my earlier post, but I have a question about dredging with multiple draws. Say I DR a Sphinx. Do I have to declare my three dredge targets immediately? Or can I dredge the one Grave-Troll in my yard, say that turns up another Grave-Troll, then use that second Troll as my second dredge target, and so on?
Each draw is separate, so each draw/dredge is decided when it happens individually. Basically, you can dredge using dredgers that weren't in your graveyard when you started.
Also, keep in mind that you can do any combination of drawing and dredging in real time, which can come in handy when you need to find the Flame-kin Zealot that's on the bottom of your deck.
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Hi i'm new to manaless dredge and i was hoping you could explain to me some rulings on both Street wrath and Phantasmogorian.
In the tips and tricks section i did not understand the following.
You can also use his ability in response to itself, allowing you to discard 6 or even 9 cards with a single Phantasmagorian. - How do you do this?
Finally, you can discard a dredger and two other cards to Phantasmagorian's ability, respond by cycling Street Wraith to dredge it, and then discard it again with another activation of the same Phantasmagorian's ability. - Can someone explain this to me more clear?
I have to say I'm really enjoying the build with four Sphinx of Lost Truths. I thought it was an exaggeration about going off on turn three pretty consistently but it really is true.
Basically, you can dredge using dredgers that weren't in your graveyard when you started.
Also, keep in mind that you can do any combination of drawing and dredging in real time, which can come in handy when you need to find the Flame-kin Zealot that's on the bottom of your deck.
Thanks, this is exactly what I was asking. Much appreciated. I've been doing it this way in my playtesting, but wasn't sure if it was completely legal.
Okay, so you have Phantasmagorian in your graveyard and say 7 cards in your hand. If you only have one Phantasmagorian, it can be good to discard more than only 3 cards into the one you have. In order to do so, you declare this:
- You activate Phantas ability by paying its cost, which is discarding three cards
- Now the ability you paid for by discarding 3 cards goes on the stack. Just as a remainder: the ability on the stack reads: Return this Phantasmagorian to your hand. BUT: Phantasmagorian is still in your graveyard by the time the ability enters the stack.
- So nothing can prevent you from activating its ability once again while the 'older' ability is still on the stack. So you pay again (discard 3) and put the same ability on the stack once again.
- So in the end, you've just discarded 6 cards. The same works for 9 cards as well, should that ever happen. As soon as you're done putting the abilities on the stack, the last one put on the stack will resolve. That returns the Phanta to your hand. The the 'older' ability tries to resolve as well, but is countered because the object (Phanta) is no longer where it would have to be for the ability to resolve (in your grave of course). So all additional copies of that ability simply fizzle.
If you now factor in a Street Wraith activation as well, it works just the same way. You discard into Phanta (the cards land in your graveyard immediately) and the ability is put onto the stack. Remember though that Phanta is still in your grave. So you just put the street wraith ability on the stack above the Phanta ability. That allows you to dredge something you've just discarded. As soon as the Street Wraith ability finished resolving, the Phanta ability is still on the stack. And from there it just works like before. You can just stack Phantas ability again (discarding 3 as the cost).
That's exactly what I was looking for thank you =)
Just kind of wanted to check since I am pretty new to Dredge overall (just got all the cards today).
In the mirror if you get lucky enough to be looking at Dread Return and Iona in the graveyard with the ability to cast is putting her in and naming black a strong enough play? Seems pretty solid locking out their therapies/returns.
Something to think about regarding the anti-Leyline sideboard: do you normally bring in your anti-Leyline cards game 2?
If you board in anti-Leyline when your opponent might have Leyline, unless the opponent does have Leyline or something else worth removing, you've diluted your deck quite a bit.
If you only deploy the anti-Leyline board game when you know your opponent has Leyline (which will probably be because you lost game 2 to Leyline or less likely if you have prior knowledge of the opponent's deck) then how often will this actually be? Is it worth devoting so many maindeck/board slot to winning the occasional game 3?
The deck is pretty cookie cutter except for Dryad Arbor over Gitaxian Probe, which felt like the correct card to cut for its lack of utility outside of the starting eight. At least Arbor is a dude for Nether Shadow. I also considered Chancellor of the Tangle instead since he doesn't cost a card.
Sideboard is specifically designed to help against Tormod's Crypt and Leyline of the Void. Specifically I want to catch out opponents that aggressively mulligan for LotV in the assumption that I have no answer.
Siding in 11 cards is tough without compromising the integrity of the engine. I'm thinking the cards to cut for it are 2-4 Dakmor Salvage, 4 Nether Shadow, 2-4 Sphinx of Lost Truths, and 1 Phantasmagorian.
Amidoinitrite?
I would definitely cut 2 Dakmor Salvage for 2 green fetchlands, and cut 1 Dryad Arbor for 1 green fetchland. I'd also think about a singleton basic forest in the sideboard.
Something to think about regarding the anti-Leyline sideboard: do you normally bring in your anti-Leyline cards game 2?
If you've got the whole SB plan I'd probably bring in some number of Nature's Claim game 2, since it hits so many relevant cards. If you know they've got Leyline (say, they shuffled carelessly, or it's the top 8 and you've seen their list), I'd bring in the whole package. Overall, I'd say it's not worth it, but we naturally defeat almost everything that's not Leyline, so maybe it should just be anti-Leyline + anti-combo = entire sideboard.
Trying to fight Leyline is just a huge mistake. You can't reliably beat it. Cope with that or play Mana Dredge.
I just want to remind you of this:
If you want to use this tech against Leyline, you already waste 4 main slots and pretty much your whole sideboard (at least like 10 cards). Then you have to draw Reverent Silence (40% chance) and one of your say 10 forests (71% chance). Combined, your chance is about 28%.
Let's just pretend you do hit those 28%. Then your opponent's leyline doesn't just vanish. It just turns into a different card that reads: 0 mana: Take two extra turns after this one. You gain 6 life. How do you like that card? I would say that no legacy deck can lose a game if that card is played turn 1. Would you agree?
So let's pretend you don't hit your requirements (remember: 28%!) right away. Then the lovely 0 mana spell reads Take three extra turns after this one. And with each consecutive mulligan from your side it's one extra turn more.
So as I already said: Cope with the fact that you scoop to Leyline or play a different deck.
To sum up your remarks: don't play Dredge?
Every deck can run Leylines, with little to no consequences. To even think about playing this deck, you need outs. Since that is the only concern, why wouldn't you make your SB deal exclusively with it?
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Trying to fight Leyline is just a huge mistake. You can't reliably beat it. Cope with that or play Mana Dredge.
In general, I'm inclined to agree that playing Dredge in a Leyline-heavy tournament is a recipe for disaster. However, I think there is some merit to being prepared for light amounts of Leylineitude (it's a word; look it up). For example, while it may be relatively easy to go deep into a tournament that's light on the Leylines, I question the ability to take it down without some help against Leyline. For example, the only matches I lost in the PE were to Leyline.
If you want to use this tech against Leyline, you already waste 4 main slots and pretty much your whole sideboard (at least like 10 cards).
I've been toying with the idea of adding fetches and Dryad Arbor to the main, regardless of anti-Leyline tech. They offer the potential for busted starts, such as using a fetch to get Bloodghast, saccing it to Cabal Therapy, netting a Zombie, then getting a Dryad Arbor and Dread Returning on the spot. I would not call those slots "wasted."
*Perhaps irrationally, but I lost to two Storm decks at SCG: Baltimore and that JWestlake fellow is always hanging around the DE/PEs on MTGO with his rituals and Ad Nauseams.
Let's just pretend you do hit those 28%. Then your opponent's leyline doesn't just vanish. It just turns into a different card that reads: 0 mana: Take two extra turns after this one. You gain 6 life. How do you like that card? I would say that no legacy deck can lose a game if that card is played turn 1. Would you agree?
So let's pretend you don't hit your requirements (remember: 28%!) right away. Then the lovely 0 mana spell reads Take three extra turns after this one. And with each consecutive mulligan from your side it's one extra turn more.
The way I would play this is to not preemptively side anything in game 2, then autoscoop to Leyline of the Void. Game 3 I would side in the anti-hate, and, presumably my opponent will mulligan aggressively to a hand with Leyline in it, regardless of the quality of the rest of the hand. I think that puts my chances of winning at higher than what you claim. I will admit that this sideboard trickery is a lot easier to pull off on MTGO.
Yes, fighting Leyline is difficult, but let's wait for some results first before we completely dismiss it.
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Every deck can run Leylines, with little to no consequences. To even think about playing this deck, you need outs. Since that is the only concern, why wouldn't you make your SB deal exclusively with it?
I think Izor's point was that we should ignore Leyline of the Void, and instead to hope that they don't have Leyline or can't find it on their mulligans; I don't think he was saying not to play Dredge at all.
That said, if the manaless deck can beat everything except Leyline while only using 56 MD slots and 4 SB slots (anti-combo, probably LED), why not spend the other slots against Leyline?
Rausch's list seems to be a shining example of an essentially blank sideboard winning despite itself.
Given that our plan against graveyard sweepers it to just barrel through them, I think the entirety of magic cards we should think about when we build our deck and sideboard can be summed up like so:
Combo pieces - Either race, and/or use Cabal Therapy, and/or have sideboard cards.
Relic of Progenitus - Treat it like a GY sweeper and (mostly) ignore it once it can't tap you out of the game, and have cards that can get you started through it, or plan to scoop to it.
Lock permanents - include some Angel of Despair-style creatures somewhere in the 75.
Oddly, looking at some of the recent results, it seems like a lot of people are opting for Tormod's Crypt instead of Relic of Progenitus. Given that basically none of the graveyard decks are fast enough to punish Relic, this is baffling to me.
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Oddly, looking at some of the recent results, it seems like a lot of people are opting for Tormod's Crypt instead of Relic of Progenitus. Given that basically none of the graveyard decks are fast enough to punish Relic, this is baffling to me.
It's so they can still develop board presence without having to keep mana up.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Are there any viable routes to enchantment destruction by removing cards in your hand from the game, or is the problem that they're in green (though if it is, Gigapede could be the answer)?
Also, I understand the Flame-Kin Zealot combo, but why not a more tempo-based approach such as with Nicholas's deck?
Easy, but not worthwhile. Swords to Plowshares in particular puts a stop to it.
If you're able to unearth three black creatures, why do you need this guy to win, again? He can only be cast from your hand when your graveyard is functioning just fine.
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http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
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hmmm its interesting, but it has to be in your opening hand to work out (hence you need like 3 to use it effectively), the problem is that what do you replace?
(also if you DR something, its probably going to be iona or elesh, etc., not a troll)
UWUW ControlUW
UGWSpiritsUGW
GHardened ScalesG
WGRUKiki PodWGRU [RIP]
No, Demon of Death's Gate is not an interesting card choice. I was being polite before.
This guy is clearly terrible. You can only cast him when you don't need him.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
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Sundering Titan is okay, but he's purely disruptive and there are generally better cards for that role. It's a lot more important to hit pseudo-hate lands like The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Glacial Chasm, which makes Woodfall Primus, Terastodon, and Realm Razer generally better. Sundering Titan is older (so it saw play before) and an artifact (so it sees play where that's relevant) but we don't really care. In short, he's been outclassed with time. He's still really good, but hitting only the 5 land types is a huge drawback.
Urabrask the Hidden doesn't pump power and toughness. Flame-Kin Zealot either wins on the spot or knocks the opponent to a low enough life total that they can't attack (and thus eventually lose). Since it only takes 2 zombies (or Narcomoeba or Ichorid or whatever) for FKZ to have higher damage, he'll almost always be better.
Sphinx of Lost Truths basically guarantees a win on the spot. Why would you wait a turn? Why would you risk your opponent having removal?
It's nigh-impossible to interact with, and much more resilient to most (but not all) graveyard hate. In particular, it laughs off Extirpate effects even more than regular dredge, and is typically better against Tormod's Crypt effects (except Relic of Progenitus). It's also orders and orders of magnitudes more consistent.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
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If FKZ is better in the finisher role, then the only argument for playing Ura instead is its "other modes" which are presumably i) a creature to attack the opponent with ii) disrupt the opponent's creatures.
i) Ura is only 4/4 so doesn't compare favorably against Golgari Grave-Troll for just killing the opponent with. Ura has haste but Grave-Troll only needs to be 8/8 and it will deal just as much damage as Ura by the following turn. Getting in for 4 haste damage is really nothing special if it doesn't win you the game that turn. 4/4 is also in Dismember range.
ii) "Creatures your opponents control come into play tapped" isn't really that special, and competes with cards like Blazing Archon and Elesh Norn for disrupting the opponent's creatures - and Ura doesn't compare that favorably to those.
The point here is that if you want to argue for Ura, you can't just point out that Ura might not be quite as good as FKZ but it does other stuff, but not compare it to other cards that do other stuff and help with finishing the opponent too.
Blazing Archon
Won't attack for lethal on the turn Ura + hasted zombies might do, but might win you the game nevertheless by shutting down the opponent's attack.
5/6 flyer (out of dismember range)
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
If you already have several creatures that can attack then this might give you the win the turn you DR it but probably will just set you up to win the following turn. -2/-2 is fairly significant in terms of weakening/removal blockers and anything killed by this effect won't come back if Elesh is removed.
4/7 vigilance (out of dismember range, out of double-bolt range)
Golgari Grave-Troll
DR on troll with some zombie friends is often enough to win you the game in a few turns. Probably won't win you the game as quickly as Ura but might do so if the opponent doesn't have any blockers.
Main advantage is you are happy to see it in your opening hand.
Another point on FKZ vs Ura is that if your opponent removes Ura then it's no longer around to provide haste. FKZ's effect is on entering the battlefield.
For those playing FKZ, a good way to test Ura would be to see how many games having Ura instead of FKZ would have still resulted in a win. If it's close to 100%, then perhaps Ura is better.
Also, FKZ needs 6 zombies, UTH needs 8. I frequently find that I have 6-7 zombies when I'm trying to combo out as quickly as possible, which makes UTH markedly worse.
The Kismet effect only matters if you pass the turn with UTH on the table, something you basically never have to do with FKZ. This effect also has basically no impact on whether or not your opponents creatures can do their thing - typically your attackers outnumber their blockers to the point of hilarity. Any creatures your opponent has with tap abilities will generally have summoning sickness, and any creatures they have that can sacrifice themselves ignore tapping as well as summoning sickness.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
The Salvages in FunkyMo's build double as dredgers (since that build doesn't play Shambling Shell) so this switch will make the deck less consistent at having a dredger in your opening hand.
As for Flame-Kin Zealot vs. Urabrask the Hidden, I have found myself needing the extra pump from FKZ to win the game on the spot. I just don't see any reason to run Ura. If you're going to Dread Return something, why would it be something that won't help you keep going? I haven't found myself in a situation where I can cast DR, but I can't continue to dredge. If you have an Ura in your yard, but not a Sphinx, then you are just unlucky, or haven't dredged enough to be considering casting DR.
LEGACY:
BURGAd Nauseum TendrilsGRUB
MODERN:
RWGBurnGWR
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR
UWBrago, King EternalUW
<-------- Pittsburgh
which I was unable to attend (:ugh:). The percentages are based on total sideboard slots available: 480 for the top 32 of the MOCS and 240 for the top 16 of the SCG Open. The cards are sorted in descending order of approximate annoyingness.
Divide & Conquer is an Android app that completely shuffles your real deck of cards. It's great for unwieldy decks (Battle of Wits, Commander, etc.) and the
paranoidthorough 40/60-card player. Check it out!LEGACY:
BURGAd Nauseum TendrilsGRUB
MODERN:
RWGBurnGWR
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR
UWBrago, King EternalUW
Each draw is separate, so each draw/dredge is decided when it happens individually. Basically, you can dredge using dredgers that weren't in your graveyard when you started.
Also, keep in mind that you can do any combination of drawing and dredging in real time, which can come in handy when you need to find the Flame-kin Zealot that's on the bottom of your deck.
Divide & Conquer is an Android app that completely shuffles your real deck of cards. It's great for unwieldy decks (Battle of Wits, Commander, etc.) and the
paranoidthorough 40/60-card player. Check it out!In the tips and tricks section i did not understand the following.
You can also use his ability in response to itself, allowing you to discard 6 or even 9 cards with a single Phantasmagorian. - How do you do this?
Finally, you can discard a dredger and two other cards to Phantasmagorian's ability, respond by cycling Street Wraith to dredge it, and then discard it again with another activation of the same Phantasmagorian's ability. - Can someone explain this to me more clear?
Thankyou
Manaless Dredge
Standard:
Jund Birthing Pod Toolbox
Thanks, this is exactly what I was asking. Much appreciated. I've been doing it this way in my playtesting, but wasn't sure if it was completely legal.
LEGACY:
BURGAd Nauseum TendrilsGRUB
MODERN:
RWGBurnGWR
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR
UWBrago, King EternalUW
That's exactly what I was looking for thank you =)
In the mirror if you get lucky enough to be looking at Dread Return and Iona in the graveyard with the ability to cast is putting her in and naming black a strong enough play? Seems pretty solid locking out their therapies/returns.
Manaless Dredge
Standard:
Jund Birthing Pod Toolbox
If you board in anti-Leyline when your opponent might have Leyline, unless the opponent does have Leyline or something else worth removing, you've diluted your deck quite a bit.
If you only deploy the anti-Leyline board game when you know your opponent has Leyline (which will probably be because you lost game 2 to Leyline or less likely if you have prior knowledge of the opponent's deck) then how often will this actually be? Is it worth devoting so many maindeck/board slot to winning the occasional game 3?
I would definitely cut 2 Dakmor Salvage for 2 green fetchlands, and cut 1 Dryad Arbor for 1 green fetchland. I'd also think about a singleton basic forest in the sideboard.
If you've got the whole SB plan I'd probably bring in some number of Nature's Claim game 2, since it hits so many relevant cards. If you know they've got Leyline (say, they shuffled carelessly, or it's the top 8 and you've seen their list), I'd bring in the whole package. Overall, I'd say it's not worth it, but we naturally defeat almost everything that's not Leyline, so maybe it should just be anti-Leyline + anti-combo = entire sideboard.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
To sum up your remarks: don't play Dredge?
Every deck can run Leylines, with little to no consequences. To even think about playing this deck, you need outs. Since that is the only concern, why wouldn't you make your SB deal exclusively with it?
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
In general, I'm inclined to agree that playing Dredge in a Leyline-heavy tournament is a recipe for disaster. However, I think there is some merit to being prepared for light amounts of Leylineitude (it's a word; look it up). For example, while it may be relatively easy to go deep into a tournament that's light on the Leylines, I question the ability to take it down without some help against Leyline. For example, the only matches I lost in the PE were to Leyline.
I've been toying with the idea of adding fetches and Dryad Arbor to the main, regardless of anti-Leyline tech. They offer the potential for busted starts, such as using a fetch to get Bloodghast, saccing it to Cabal Therapy, netting a Zombie, then getting a Dryad Arbor and Dread Returning on the spot. I would not call those slots "wasted."
As for the sideboard, in my current list, 13 cards (Chancellor of the Annex, Mental Misstep, Leyline of Sanctity, and Iona, Shield of Emeria) are dedicated to shoring up the Storm matchup*. In a meta that doesn't require board wipes or anti-combo defenses, the sideboard is essentially empty.
*Perhaps irrationally, but I lost to two Storm decks at SCG: Baltimore and that JWestlake fellow is always hanging around the DE/PEs on MTGO with his rituals and Ad Nauseams.
The way I would play this is to not preemptively side anything in game 2, then autoscoop to Leyline of the Void. Game 3 I would side in the anti-hate, and, presumably my opponent will mulligan aggressively to a hand with Leyline in it, regardless of the quality of the rest of the hand. I think that puts my chances of winning at higher than what you claim. I will admit that this sideboard trickery is a lot easier to pull off on MTGO.
Yes, fighting Leyline is difficult, but let's wait for some results first before we completely dismiss it.
Divide & Conquer is an Android app that completely shuffles your real deck of cards. It's great for unwieldy decks (Battle of Wits, Commander, etc.) and the
paranoidthorough 40/60-card player. Check it out!I think Izor's point was that we should ignore Leyline of the Void, and instead to hope that they don't have Leyline or can't find it on their mulligans; I don't think he was saying not to play Dredge at all.
That said, if the manaless deck can beat everything except Leyline while only using 56 MD slots and 4 SB slots (anti-combo, probably LED), why not spend the other slots against Leyline?
Rausch's list seems to be a shining example of an essentially blank sideboard winning despite itself.
Given that our plan against graveyard sweepers it to just barrel through them, I think the entirety of magic cards we should think about when we build our deck and sideboard can be summed up like so:
Leyline of the Void - Either plan to scoop to it or have a reactive plan.
Combo pieces - Either race, and/or use Cabal Therapy, and/or have sideboard cards.
Relic of Progenitus - Treat it like a GY sweeper and (mostly) ignore it once it can't tap you out of the game, and have cards that can get you started through it, or plan to scoop to it.
Lock permanents - include some Angel of Despair-style creatures somewhere in the 75.
Oddly, looking at some of the recent results, it seems like a lot of people are opting for Tormod's Crypt instead of Relic of Progenitus. Given that basically none of the graveyard decks are fast enough to punish Relic, this is baffling to me.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
It's so they can still develop board presence without having to keep mana up.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Also, I understand the Flame-Kin Zealot combo, but why not a more tempo-based approach such as with Nicholas's deck?