I would cut those Dakmor Salvage in a heartbeat. Why are they in there? What are they doing for you? I don't think hardcasting Golgari Thug is a very high-percentage play.
I would think about Laboratory Maniac instead of FKZ. FKZ uses fewer Dread Returns but Maniac is blue. Your deck is less well-set-up to abuse Maniac (only 3 Rider, only 3 Force) but "pitches to Force" is among the most important non-written text a Legacy/Vintage card can have.
The 4th Ichorid is something of a metagame call - if you expect lots of slow blue decks then max Ichorid is definitely the way to go.
The 4th Force of Will, 4th Chancellor of the Annex, and 4th Whirlpool Rider in the sideboard all feel a little awkward to me. I think you want all those and more versus most combo decks. What do you board out and in for combo matchups?
I think Progenitus is the correct shuffle creature if you have 6x cards that want to eat him, but keep in mind that he's one of the weaker ones against Show and Tell.
Now, this makes me cut on the traps. How do you address those issues I fear (Thalia, Moat, Leyline)?
-2 Dakmor, they're just terrible.
If you are really in need of a mana source, Dryad Arbor would be my first thought as it plays well with Therapy & Dread Return, and it's uncounterable.
The rest is up to you. Flayer of the Hatebound & Laboratory Maniac take care of moat.
Leyline isn't a big deal, we can use Therapy on ourselves to get what we need into the yard to combo, zombie attack too.
Only 2 Shadows, 3 Ickys, 3 Dread Returns sounds shaky.
Our best asset is our high percentage of winning in game1 > I fear these numbers being less than 4 will drop your chances.
LED-dredge can get away with running less recurring creatures, but we really need them.
Postboard do whatever you like of course, but remember that cards like Dread Return aren't just to combo, but also to generate zombies when it matters, cos those Bridges don't always hang around that long...
Noxious Revival in the side looks interesting... I wonder how useful it might be to grab a Force from the yard?
I would think about Laboratory Maniac instead of FKZ. .... "pitches to Force" is among the most important non-written text a Legacy/Vintage card can have.
If you're running Force, you want the blue count as high as you can get it. Also bear in mind, that with all 4 Force in the main, you're freeing up space in the side.
The logic, (In my head) with the two dakmor salvages was to pay for thalia or daze as well as having an extra two cards to pitch and dredge early on. They were Urza's bauble before and I've been thinking about moving back to the baubles. Taking a small peak before striping a card with Therapy is very nice. It might also go to the third nether shadow and add the fourth force to the main. I haven't run into any problems with my lower threat count. If I were to add a threat I would try to find something with a different name, as the two most common pieces of hate I deal with are Surgical Extraction and Rest in Peace (After Deathrite of course).
Against fast combo variants (Belcher and Oops) are to open with force of will or chancellor to try and disrupt them long enough to stick some discard, all the while applying as much pressure as possible with zombie tokens and the like, and winning out of no where by combo or bringing back chancellor to mess with their ability to cast spells. So the plan is to max out on rider, force, and chancellor. I trimmed both salvages and a street wraith.
ANT is a different story and a lot more resilient, though the strategy is very similar, just more apt to get screwed with because discard spells are annoying, and their ability to go oops I won after a discard spell on turn one can be rather annoying. It doesn't happen often but it can be stupid sometimes.
The noxious revivals are actually very good as a split against reanimator or other targeted graveyard strategies. Its graveyard hate that buys back narcomoebas and FOW. This is also the deck that I occasionally see Leyline of the void from the sideboard (Very rare), so sometimes I just get to say a variety of swearwords and go about my day.
I honestly don't like Lab man as a win con. I understand wanting to have more cards to pitch to force, but rider doesn't rip through your deck as well as Spy or kelpie. maybe if I changed my package around to add two kelpies in those flex spots. I would consider lab man then, and that might just be better. Overall though, I like that FKZ means I have to cast fewer Dread Returns to win that game. Overall though, I like cutting the salvages, I just don't know what to add in their place yet.
Honestly, as much as in the same vein that the Blue version of Manaless Dredge is in, Dakmor Salvage is more of a meta call. If your meta is riddled with Thalias and Dazes, then it might be worth looking into. Normally, against Thalia decks, we have to slog through their hate bears with our 2/2s and 1/1s with no abilities, while they First Strike and Protect themselves from all of our guys anyways. The only thing that we can dodge in Death and Taxes is Spirit of the Labyrinth. Remember, we aren't drawing the card.
It would be worth it to couple Salvage with Bloodghast, as you can constantly Dredge your deck and play it for Landfall Triggers, but that's when the game gets really grindy...of which we would auto fold to Mirran Crusader+equipment anyways. Plus they have Swords, Mangara of Corondor, and Aether Vial shenanigans.
The match up is really hard, but we can do it.
Against Fast combos like the aforementioned Oops and Belcher, the Blue version wins anyways. Those decks are so fragile that a well timed Force stops them right away. Against Belcher, Force their big spell and against Oops! Force their Hermit Druid creature (which ever comes up). Just keep in mind Oops! does play Chancellor.
ANT and TES do have hand disruption, but it's not as good as say Thoughtseize is in the Midrange decks. Duress doesn't hit any of our essential parts like Phantasmagorian or Street Wraith, but it can hit opening hand Git Probes and the like. I actually played against a Thoughtseize deck who made me discard my Phantasmagorian one time and I just won on the next turn. He did all the work for me
A deck with lots of targeted discard (Hymn to Tourach decks like Shardless, Jund, and Pox) would be reasons to always have access to Leyline in the sideboard. However, if you're not on the Balustrade Spy plan, your sideboard is already reactive enough to deal with various hate and your probably gonna be playing the long game.
Noxious Revival is SUCH an odd card to use. It's card disadvantage (which we really don't card about) to help save us in tight spots, reset errant Narcos, and can save cards from Targeted hate like Surgical Extraction. It's also offensive so we can trip up Brainstorms and Counterbalance (rarely) if need be. That play rarely ever comes up, but it's worth it sometimes.
I just came back to manaless dredge, and the new blue version has me a bit confused. Are people playing blue purely for Force of Will? Or is there some reason that Whirlpool Rider and Laboratory Maniac are better than ye olde spy/flayer package?
Also, why is FoW being played here? Is it specifically to counter hate? Deal with opposing combo decks? Is there a better way to do those things than adding a card that gives us card disadvantage and requires (what seems to be) a somewhat awkward blue splash?
I was heading for a blue manaless-dredge version. Is this version simply unable to play against leyline? Otherwise, it'd take over 10 cards to get that green sideboard.
Among those who play the blue manaless-dredge version, how do you prepare against leyline?
The blue build does scoop to Leyline. I made a post a page or two back showing what hate is commonly being run - overwhelmingly it's cards with a Converted Mana Cost equal to 1. Leyline is fairly uncommon, but that could change if somehow the blue manaless build becomes the dominant graveyard deck of Legacy.
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I am the author of the "Resource Advantage in Magic" series over on EternalCentral.com
OK, so I'll try it out as such, with no defense against Leyline. I'll hope people don't play them!
LotV is only seen in about 3.2% of decks. Those numbers may vary depending on your meta.
It's that high? It's very rare around me, about the only times I've seen it is in from the side in Helm-decks, which went through a phase of popularity here about a year ago and then disappeared.
I just came back to manaless dredge, and the new blue version has me a bit confused. Are people playing blue purely for Force of Will? Or is there some reason that Whirlpool Rider and Laboratory Maniac are better than ye olde spy/flayer package?
Also, why is FoW being played here? Is it specifically to counter hate? Deal with opposing combo decks? Is there a better way to do those things than adding a card that gives us card disadvantage and requires (what seems to be) a somewhat awkward blue splash?
Yeah, like Thrasher said, the blue plan is ALL ABOUT being about being able to play Force. (I run all 4 Force with a total of 17 blue in the main, another 7 blue in the side)
The reason for it is cards like Grafdiggers and Rest In peace, which literally stop us cold. Until these cards were printed, we had little reason to need the blue counter.
Of plans we can adopt, the green side is the only one that can do anything about these two, as they come down early, but even in the green side you lose a few turns, so most of the time it's enough for them to just beat you (at least in my experience)
Talking about the Rider/Labman VS Griselbrand/Spy/Flayer etc., I believe that Rider is good enough, but just like the other Dread Return targets, they all have some kind of drawback. Riders' drawback is that you will often, but not necessarily, be turning over less cards into the grave than Griselbrand or Spy.
I think this drawback, a concern it might be, is actually not that big a deal however, as you'll often just chain into another Dread Return with Rider and do it again to win.
Compare this to the drawbacks of Spy & Griselbrand, and I think Riders' drawback isn't that bad.
The blue plan is the real deal IMO.
I've now played a heap of matches with Blue, and given the sheer amount of Cages & RiP's (and combo pieces) I've countered, and games I've stolen that I had no right to win, I'm a happy smurf.
The thing I love about Griselbrand though is he's a threat all by himself. Sometimes DR'ing a GGT is good enough, right? The same is true for a 7/7 Flying Lifelinker, that also threatens to just flat-out win the game.
I went 3-3 at a tournament with 42 people yesterday using Alan Villamayor's mainboard list. This was my first ever legacy tournament.
Round 1: 2 - 1 vs Combo Elves
Round 2: 1 - 2 vs Shardless BUG
Round 3: 1 - 2 vs UWR Delver
Round 4: 2 - 0 Storm
Round 5: 2 - 0 Show and Tell
Round 6: 0 - 2 Show and Tell.
I lost round 2 to hardcounter hate. The other two losses were mostly misplays. All in all, good fun was had. I'm thinking about switching the Chancellors of the Annex with LEDs for a second discard outlet, making a t2 win more likely.
I went 3-3 at a tournament with 42 people yesterday using Alan Villamayor's mainboard list. This was my first ever legacy tournament.
Round 1: 2 - 1 vs Combo Elves
Round 2: 1 - 2 vs Shardless BUG
Round 3: 1 - 2 vs UWR Delver
Round 4: 2 - 0 Storm
Round 5: 2 - 0 Show and Tell
Round 6: 0 - 2 Show and Tell.
I lost round 2 to hardcounter hate. The other two losses were mostly misplays. All in all, good fun was had. I'm thinking about switching the Chancellors of the Annex with LEDs for a second discard outlet, making a t2 win more likely.
If your going to play LEDs why don't you just play LED Dredge?
Has anyone tried putting LEDs in the main just as an extra discard outlet?
I play both LED-dredge & Manaless (aswell as others), and whilst I've tinkered with LED in a manaless list on & off, It doesn't really do enough.
What I generally found in manaless, was that LED does help with increasing your chance of T2 combo, you can't drop it on T1.
I've always kinda felt it was win-more.
Mostly because I like the Spy - Flayer - Troll combo win. LED Dredge wins by beatdown, which isn't as fast or as fun.
LED-dredge IS faster.
It sacrifices the consistency & threat density of manaless, in favour of outright speed where a T1 win is a very real possibility.
That said, counter has a much bigger effect on LED-dredge than manaless. Manaless (almost) doesn't care at all.
In the debate of LED/non-LED/Manaless dredge decks I got a 20 minute video on youtube that quickly goes over the variations of dredge in general. This is actually the part 1 of many Legacy Dredge deck techs I hope to come out with. Here is part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWnoi7ljJhs
Part 2 will be Baulstrade Spy manaless which should be up today. Part 3 will be blue manaless and it will be up within the next month.
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Stasis players like me are like those old gray haired convicts that have been locked up for 40 years straight. You can take us in a fight but you know you'll lose a testicle in the process of winning.
Decks I play
Legacy
Dredge 0
DredgeGBRU
AffinityXRUB
GoblinsRWB
10 land StompyG
BurnR
DreadstillURW
BelcherGR
Death and Taxes W
Enchantress GWR
BUILDING
Legacy Lands GBRUW
I'll never tell you the flavor text of Teferi's Imp!!
Took a break from Manaless to okay other decks...but nothing is as addicting as this deck.
Funny story. Managed a rare turn 1 kill. How? My really bad opponent Thoughtseized my Phantasmagorian on his turn 1 and I had 2 Dredgers, Ichorid and a Street Wraith in hand. Passed to me, did some discarding and Wraithing and went to my draw step with 2 Ichorids, a Narco, a Bridge active, and my dredge flipped Kelpie. Comboed him right out.
Opponent: ******* stupid deck.
Me: You did the work for me
I would think about Laboratory Maniac instead of FKZ. FKZ uses fewer Dread Returns but Maniac is blue. Your deck is less well-set-up to abuse Maniac (only 3 Rider, only 3 Force) but "pitches to Force" is among the most important non-written text a Legacy/Vintage card can have.
The 4th Ichorid is something of a metagame call - if you expect lots of slow blue decks then max Ichorid is definitely the way to go.
The 4th Force of Will, 4th Chancellor of the Annex, and 4th Whirlpool Rider in the sideboard all feel a little awkward to me. I think you want all those and more versus most combo decks. What do you board out and in for combo matchups?
I think Progenitus is the correct shuffle creature if you have 6x cards that want to eat him, but keep in mind that he's one of the weaker ones against Show and Tell.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
-2 Dakmor, they're just terrible.
If you are really in need of a mana source, Dryad Arbor would be my first thought as it plays well with Therapy & Dread Return, and it's uncounterable.
The rest is up to you.
Flayer of the Hatebound & Laboratory Maniac take care of moat.
Leyline isn't a big deal, we can use Therapy on ourselves to get what we need into the yard to combo, zombie attack too.
Only 2 Shadows, 3 Ickys, 3 Dread Returns sounds shaky.
Our best asset is our high percentage of winning in game1 > I fear these numbers being less than 4 will drop your chances.
LED-dredge can get away with running less recurring creatures, but we really need them.
Postboard do whatever you like of course, but remember that cards like Dread Return aren't just to combo, but also to generate zombies when it matters, cos those Bridges don't always hang around that long...
Noxious Revival in the side looks interesting... I wonder how useful it might be to grab a Force from the yard?
If you're running Force, you want the blue count as high as you can get it. Also bear in mind, that with all 4 Force in the main, you're freeing up space in the side.
Against fast combo variants (Belcher and Oops) are to open with force of will or chancellor to try and disrupt them long enough to stick some discard, all the while applying as much pressure as possible with zombie tokens and the like, and winning out of no where by combo or bringing back chancellor to mess with their ability to cast spells. So the plan is to max out on rider, force, and chancellor. I trimmed both salvages and a street wraith.
ANT is a different story and a lot more resilient, though the strategy is very similar, just more apt to get screwed with because discard spells are annoying, and their ability to go oops I won after a discard spell on turn one can be rather annoying. It doesn't happen often but it can be stupid sometimes.
The noxious revivals are actually very good as a split against reanimator or other targeted graveyard strategies. Its graveyard hate that buys back narcomoebas and FOW. This is also the deck that I occasionally see Leyline of the void from the sideboard (Very rare), so sometimes I just get to say a variety of swearwords and go about my day.
I honestly don't like Lab man as a win con. I understand wanting to have more cards to pitch to force, but rider doesn't rip through your deck as well as Spy or kelpie. maybe if I changed my package around to add two kelpies in those flex spots. I would consider lab man then, and that might just be better. Overall though, I like that FKZ means I have to cast fewer Dread Returns to win that game. Overall though, I like cutting the salvages, I just don't know what to add in their place yet.
It would be worth it to couple Salvage with Bloodghast, as you can constantly Dredge your deck and play it for Landfall Triggers, but that's when the game gets really grindy...of which we would auto fold to Mirran Crusader+equipment anyways. Plus they have Swords, Mangara of Corondor, and Aether Vial shenanigans.
The match up is really hard, but we can do it.
Against Fast combos like the aforementioned Oops and Belcher, the Blue version wins anyways. Those decks are so fragile that a well timed Force stops them right away. Against Belcher, Force their big spell and against Oops! Force their Hermit Druid creature (which ever comes up). Just keep in mind Oops! does play Chancellor.
ANT and TES do have hand disruption, but it's not as good as say Thoughtseize is in the Midrange decks. Duress doesn't hit any of our essential parts like Phantasmagorian or Street Wraith, but it can hit opening hand Git Probes and the like. I actually played against a Thoughtseize deck who made me discard my Phantasmagorian one time and I just won on the next turn. He did all the work for me
A deck with lots of targeted discard (Hymn to Tourach decks like Shardless, Jund, and Pox) would be reasons to always have access to Leyline in the sideboard. However, if you're not on the Balustrade Spy plan, your sideboard is already reactive enough to deal with various hate and your probably gonna be playing the long game.
Noxious Revival is SUCH an odd card to use. It's card disadvantage (which we really don't card about) to help save us in tight spots, reset errant Narcos, and can save cards from Targeted hate like Surgical Extraction. It's also offensive so we can trip up Brainstorms and Counterbalance (rarely) if need be. That play rarely ever comes up, but it's worth it sometimes.
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
If you want to fight Daze it seems like the best plan is 4 Cabal Therapy 4 Dread Return.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Also, why is FoW being played here? Is it specifically to counter hate? Deal with opposing combo decks? Is there a better way to do those things than adding a card that gives us card disadvantage and requires (what seems to be) a somewhat awkward blue splash?
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Among those who play the blue manaless-dredge version, how do you prepare against leyline?
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
LotV is only seen in about 3.2% of decks. Those numbers may vary depending on your meta.
It's that high? It's very rare around me, about the only times I've seen it is in from the side in Helm-decks, which went through a phase of popularity here about a year ago and then disappeared.
Yeah, like Thrasher said, the blue plan is ALL ABOUT being about being able to play Force.
(I run all 4 Force with a total of 17 blue in the main, another 7 blue in the side)
The reason for it is cards like Grafdiggers and Rest In peace, which literally stop us cold. Until these cards were printed, we had little reason to need the blue counter.
Of plans we can adopt, the green side is the only one that can do anything about these two, as they come down early, but even in the green side you lose a few turns, so most of the time it's enough for them to just beat you (at least in my experience)
Talking about the Rider/Labman VS Griselbrand/Spy/Flayer etc., I believe that Rider is good enough, but just like the other Dread Return targets, they all have some kind of drawback. Riders' drawback is that you will often, but not necessarily, be turning over less cards into the grave than Griselbrand or Spy.
I think this drawback, a concern it might be, is actually not that big a deal however, as you'll often just chain into another Dread Return with Rider and do it again to win.
Compare this to the drawbacks of Spy & Griselbrand, and I think Riders' drawback isn't that bad.
The blue plan is the real deal IMO.
I've now played a heap of matches with Blue, and given the sheer amount of Cages & RiP's (and combo pieces) I've countered, and games I've stolen that I had no right to win, I'm a happy smurf.
Round 1: 0-2 vs BUG Delver
Round 2: 2-1 vs DeathBlade
Round 3: 2-0 vs RUG Delver
The other decks there were: Jund Depths, Sneak'N'Show, Pox, Goblin Stompy (awesome deck).
We need more people...
Round 1: 2 - 1 vs Combo Elves
Round 2: 1 - 2 vs Shardless BUG
Round 3: 1 - 2 vs UWR Delver
Round 4: 2 - 0 Storm
Round 5: 2 - 0 Show and Tell
Round 6: 0 - 2 Show and Tell.
I lost round 2 to hardcounter hate. The other two losses were mostly misplays. All in all, good fun was had. I'm thinking about switching the Chancellors of the Annex with LEDs for a second discard outlet, making a t2 win more likely.
If your going to play LEDs why don't you just play LED Dredge?
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
I play both LED-dredge & Manaless (aswell as others), and whilst I've tinkered with LED in a manaless list on & off, It doesn't really do enough.
What I generally found in manaless, was that LED does help with increasing your chance of T2 combo, you can't drop it on T1.
I've always kinda felt it was win-more.
LED-dredge IS faster.
It sacrifices the consistency & threat density of manaless, in favour of outright speed where a T1 win is a very real possibility.
That said, counter has a much bigger effect on LED-dredge than manaless. Manaless (almost) doesn't care at all.
In case you're wondering, I prefer Manaless.
Part 2 will be Baulstrade Spy manaless which should be up today. Part 3 will be blue manaless and it will be up within the next month.
Decks I play
Legacy
Dredge 0
DredgeGBRU
AffinityXRUB
GoblinsRWB
10 land StompyG
BurnR
DreadstillURW
BelcherGR
Death and Taxes W
Enchantress GWR
BUILDING
Legacy Lands GBRUW
I'll never tell you the flavor text of Teferi's Imp!!
Funny story. Managed a rare turn 1 kill. How? My really bad opponent Thoughtseized my Phantasmagorian on his turn 1 and I had 2 Dredgers, Ichorid and a Street Wraith in hand. Passed to me, did some discarding and Wraithing and went to my draw step with 2 Ichorids, a Narco, a Bridge active, and my dredge flipped Kelpie. Comboed him right out.
Opponent: ******* stupid deck.
Me: You did the work for me
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)