Scooping to gravehate like Rest In Peace & leyline of the void lets your opponent know that you have no outs. I never scoop and always feign a play just so the next game they don't mull until they get it. i feel like fearless is the way to go. The chances of actually drawing into both a green source and a removal spell, or having a usable counter are extremely minuscule. Most of the anti gravehate strategies either water down your main board, take up a decent chunk of your SB, or both. I would rather just try to outrace the hate or dodge it altogether. Playing a deck like this allows the chance to just get housed out sometimes with nothing you can do about it. It is this decks version of "mana screw".
Whats the general consensus on side boarding thse days? Ive been seeing alot of fow lists lately but reading negative posts about it. I run led dredge and 90% of games i just dont care about hate, i havent played manaless in a while but i assume yall are a little more concerned about it being a few turns slower.
Should i run petals and claims or forces and shoals in the side? I do run 4 chancellors main aswell to help on hate.
The Force lists are the most successful recently, so that's a safe bet. I don't like them, but maybe you will. You should probably at least playtest them.
You're not "a few turns slower" on average. One of our posters did a big thing with 100s of games after Faithless Looting came out and you're only about 1 turn slower (even taking into account play/draw)
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As for sideboard plan, here's what Fire told me before :
1) Ignore it. Hope to be faster or more consistent, but don't warp the deck to deal with hate. If you were wrong to ignore hate, you were probably wrong to play Manaless Dredge. This is the single most successful strategy, based on the tournament record.
2) Blow it up. Use Dryad Arbor maindeck, some additional land sideboard, and sideboard answers like Simplify, Nature's Claim, Reverent Silence and Emerald Charm. This is the second most successful option.
3) Counter it. Use Force of Will, Disrupting Shoal, Mindbreak Trap and run Whirlpool Rider to increase the number of CMC=2 cards you can pitch to Shoal. This is the third most successful option.
4) Negate it. Use Leyline of Sanctity, Unmask, and whatever else you can get your hands on to invalidate the hate in some way. One interesting example of this is using X-cost creatures like Phyrexian Marauder who immediately die (when X=0) and give you Bridge from Below tokens right through a Grafdigger's Cage. This is probably the fourth most successful option.
5) Race it. Load up on Lion's Eye Diamond and extra speed effects and hope you don't run into something nasty. This is probably the least successful option (mostly because #1 does a better job).
Speaking of sideboarding, I could also use some feedback. I can't afford Mindbreak Trap or Force of Will currently, so I have to make due with what I have. Here's my current SB:
I'll be playing at a new venue starting next week, so I have no idea what the meta there is like. So generally speaking, is my current SB passable in terms of competitiveness?
Speaking of sideboarding, I could also use some feedback. I can't afford Mindbreak Trap or Force of Will currently, so I have to make due with what I have. Here's my current SB:
I'll be playing at a new venue starting next week, so I have no idea what the meta there is like. So generally speaking, is my current SB passable in terms of competitiveness?
Why is chancellor side? He can buy essential turns so we have time to go off. Whats your main list? The rest looks ok, I might swap iona for another ashen rider depending on meta.
Why is chancellor side? He can buy essential turns so we have time to go off. Whats your main list? The rest looks ok, I might swap iona for another ashen rider depending on meta.
I started playing Manaless Dredge back in 2016, and then it wasn't so uncommon to see Chancellor in the SB. Because I was building on a budget in those days, it was simply cheaper to forgo Chancellor in the maindeck until I could afford a playset. Because I essentially learned how to play the deck without Chancellor, I guess I just stuck with what felt familiar and comfortable. Here's the current list (which hasn't changed in nearly two years):
Chancellors should be main. They are a key part of stopping the opponent. For example, last time I played Legacy, I went 2-0 mainly because of :
1) Having Chancellor to stop turn 1 play, giving me time to assemble something turn 3.
2) Using Cabal Therapy to strip my opponent's hand.
So for sideboard, there's no way around without Force of Will or even Mindbreak Trap. You could use some additional discard maybe, but I'd rather see some finishers then.
im a having kind of a sucess in Community Legacy League on wednesdays on gatherling.com ... move to led dredge, but after thar i prefer manaless... it worths to replace phantasmagorians by LED's?
i'd assume not. since you'd be taking away fodder targets for ichorid. LED's can also be targets for counter magic and then you'll get absolutely zero value out of them once they hit the graveyard. so best way to play LEDs would be just playing LED dredge and not manaless, since the LEDs are there mostly for faithless looting flashbacks.
Hi Nobunga! I love your list, it's actually only a few cards off from mine. My only real concern with it is only three Chancellors... to me it hardly seems worthwhile to even run a Leyline / Chancellor effect without running the full boat. If I remember correctly my list is -1 Shambling Shell and +1 Chancellor, and I rarely have no-dredge problems. But YMMV.
The other difference is that I'm -1 Balustrade and +1 Griselbrand. Functionally, Grizzy is about equivalent to Ballsy in terms of deck-flippage. As long as you have 7 life to spend (which most of the time you will) and a dredger or two to play with, he can typically flip your deck, or enough of it to either find the Flayer combo, or generate such a massive pile of dudes as to make you unstoppable. He can also just play beatdown or threaten to block and gain life. Balustrade is technically slightly better as he guarantees the combo but the split provides a touch more protection against various hate cards.
I've also had one opponent actually side in Torpor Orb against me, which shuts down both Spy and Flayer. I mentioned this to a friend and they suggested boarding in a combo package of Triskelion + The Mimeoplasm. Mimeo eats a Grave-Troll and Trike and becomes a huge/huge trike that guns the oppo down with activated ability rather than a 187 trigger. (Note that Mimeo is an "as-enters" replacement, not a "when enters" trigger, so he works through Torpor Orb). IDK if this is worth sideboard space though since Torpor Orb is hardly a common hate card. There are also times when the oppo uses Leyline so you need Flamekin Zealot instead.
Some of your sb pieces confuse me a bit. In what matchups would you prefer Grand Arbiter to a fourth Chancellor? I guess it's better at stopping Eldrazi on-cast triggers than Chancellor, but I can't see any other way in which it's better. I guess you can use it to force a DR past a Daze, but first you have to resolve a DR on Grand Arbiter past that same Daze anyway. So really you beat Daze by just having more DR's / FOW's than they have counters, or tearing their hand apart with Therapies. Other than that I'm not certain what purpose he serves. Is he just a Chancellor that increases your blue card density? I think I'd rather have a Mindbreak Trap for Storm in that slot.
Ancestor's Chosen is a nice touch but Resolute Archangel is strictly better from a Reanimator standpoint IMO. Flying, and will gain a useful amount of life even if we have to panic-reanimate it on a small yard. Ancestor's Chosen might put us in the position of having to slow down our Ichorid feasting to conserve fuel for lifegain, while Resolute just goes to 20 no matter what. Of course, on a full yard Chosen can set us to a ridiculous life total but if we have a full yard why aren't we just winning instead? I'd say both are poor substitutes for Gnaw to the Bone but in Manaless, we have limited options.
What purpose do the Archive Traps serve? I'm trying to think of decks where we want to mill them for 13 approximately once ever. (Only two copies makes it very unlikely we will ever be holding two before we go into dredge-only mode). I'm drawing a blank but this seems like such a strange case I'm sure you have a good plan for it. Maybe just to fight against topdeck tutors? But I thought Vampiric tutor was banned? Is this to fight Sneak & Show and similar "fatty off the top" decks? Trouble is, a lot of those lists just use scrying and Top to set up their flip rather than Worldly Tutors like they used to. Scrying and top don't let us cast Archive Trap. So I'm still a bit mystified. For me these would also be Mindbreak Traps to fight Storm bc with them on the play, I find Storm typically can go off just barely before we can kill them, so we have to have ways to interact and I don't think 4x FoW is enough. :/ Have you alternatively considered Disrupting Shoal as an additional countermagic piece?
I have to say I really like the Whirlpool Drake and I'm considering testing him in my build. The double-Rider effect is amazing, the fact that it works right past a Torpor Orb is gravy, and the fact that unlike Griselbrand or Rider it allows you to fine-tune your library dumping. Heck, you can carefully set it up to leave yourself one card almost every single time, allowing you your combo win and anti-millout insurance in case they have something silly like a fog or Angel's Grace effect (I have actually heard of a Dredge deck losing to a sideboarded Angel's Grace being used in exactly this fashion - genius). This reduces the need to worry about saving a DR to use a Thug to stop millout in such circumstances, and also saves a sideboard slot some people (including me) spend on Progenitus. I think I will start testing Drake immediately! But do you run him and Rider just to diversify your combo pieces to fight against hate cards like Extraction? Or are there matchups where you find them actually superior to Balustrade Spy?
Finally, I like Ashen Rider but I try to always find room for two. An Elesh Norn can also be a great sb add if you are worried about facing Elves.
I think we can very much survive the probe banning. If you absolute must have it, the probable best substitute is one of the Baubles, Mishra or Urza's.
The version I'm using has a generic sideboard as the metagame here is always changing. Also, Legacy Weapon is my poor man's version of Progenitus =P
Hey all ! Quick noob question, if you don't mind : why are some of you playing 2x Balustrade Spy effects and some 4 ? Is there a debate on the subject ?
I have a Manaless Dredge deck but I must say I play Legacy VERY rarely, so my judgment is not worth much.
This is my current Postban list :
I feel Baubles are important, since they allow us to dredge a first time during the opponent's turn. They're not Probes, for sure, but I feel like they're better than just dropping the idea of a 0 cmc draw spell. What do you think ?
I'm also trying to rebuild my sideboard post ban. Now that we have a whole playset of blue cards that's down, I feel Force of Will and Disrupting Shoals are harder to justify.
So far I have :
2x Ashen Rider
3x Faerie Macabre / Surgical Extraction
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Mindbreak Trap
1x Progenitus
So I still have a little bit of room.
@ArkhangelAzrael : can you tell what the Noxious Revivals and Sickening Shoals are for ? I'm intrigued.
Also, you should just buy a "promo" Progenitus, it's actually pretty cheap
Hi Semoreh, thanks for sharing your list and thoughts!
So, about the Balustrade Spy, I think it's just a matter of preference. Some people like the combo to be the main win condition (so 4 copies makes it more likely) while others think of it as a secondary win condition, so 2 copies is enough, sometimes only 1. I have tried both and I think it really is a matter of meta and personal preference. If your meta is very fast, the combo allows you to win on the spot, if your meta is slower and has more answers, you might want those Balustrade Spies to be Force of Wills or some other defense cards.
The baubles are not bad, but I do think they are not necessary. You need 4x for a chance that they are in your opening hand and even so, you can't cast them on the first turn, you will most likely only be able to reap the benefits on your opponents third turn at best. i'm testing them, but most professional manaless dredge players have already accepted that you can live without.
As for my SB, first the Flame-Kin Zealot comes and goes from MB to SB, I can never decide. I like having both on the MB as sometimes it's easier to win with one or the other. In old times, Flame-Kin Zealot was the preferred win-con but I have such hatred for Ensnaring Bridge that I like to have outs in MB =P Just a pet-peeve.
The Noxious Revivals I'll send you to an article I read written by the genius of Manaless Dredge, Michael Keller (https://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/52180/the-cutting-room-floor-manaless-dredge-in-legacy). I think his current views are no longer in favor of the card, but as I said, my SB is just a generic one and since Noxious can also serve as a reanimator answer like Faerie Macabre, I think it is not a bad card to try.
The Sickening Shoals are there for all the critters we will find that are annoying, and I think it is better than Contagion. Things like Containment Priest and sometimes even a big reanimator (as the Phantasmagoria can deal with a Griselbrand).
Mindbreak Trap for anything Storm/Ant/Belcher, as those are other non-interactive decks that are as fast as Manaless.
Leyline is also an excellent choice if your meta is full of burn and discard (and ANT/Belcher/Storm too!) (sadly, I sold mine a long time ago as I never expected them to spike so much, so now I don't fell like paying for it again =P)
Ashen Rider (and Progenitus when I have one) are for Show And Tell. Ashen is also a good Dread Return target all around.
I think the current primer is in favor of having some form of answer to reanimator (usually Faerie) plus Force of Will and Whirlpool Rider in MB, removing the Balustrade Combo, probe and most, if not all, Shambling Shells. Chancellor is contentious, some like it, some prefer just FOW. There has also been talks about 1x Vengeful Pharaoh somewhere in the 75, which I think is a cool thing to try!
My personal preference is to not run FOW, I like to be the absolute glass cannon, I'm just a Johnny, not a Spike hehehe.
All in all, the best thing about manaless dredge is that the community is again talking about it, and the more versions we have the better!
Hi Semoreh, thanks for sharing your list and thoughts!
So, about the Balustrade Spy, I think it's just a matter of preference. Some people like the combo to be the main win condition (so 4 copies makes it more likely) while others think of it as a secondary win condition, so 2 copies is enough, sometimes only 1. I have tried both and I think it really is a matter of meta and personal preference. If your meta is very fast, the combo allows you to win on the spot, if your meta is slower and has more answers, you might want those Balustrade Spies to be Force of Wills or some other defense cards.
Thanks for your insight
That means maybe I could add 1 or 2 additionnal Balustrade Spies in the side I could bring in case I need to go faster.
Or just go with the full playset main deck... frankly I'd consider trimming the Chancellors to make room and move them sideboard but I'm reading on this topic that it's widely seen as a bad idea ^^
The baubles are not bad, but I do think they are not necessary. You need 4x for a chance that they are in your opening hand and even so, you can't cast them on the first turn, you will most likely only be able to reap the benefits on your opponents third turn at best. i'm testing them, but most professional manaless dredge players have already accepted that you can live without.
If the bauble is in your opening hand you will indeed reap the benefits on your opponent's third turn, but it then garanties you a strong third turn. If you don't have baubles in your deck, it feels you're relying a lot on Street Wraiths to enable a fast Dredge or on the biggest Dredgers to hit your yard early but sometimes you only have a Thug and it's pretty slow.
I know the card is far from ideal, but I see it as a backup plan to kickstart the deck again if it sputters. Thus the 3x set instead of a 4x sorta makes sense : it's only a plan B so if I've got it in my opening hand that's sweet, if not it's no big deal.
But maybe it's not the right mentality and I'll change my mind after some playtesting. I totally see your point that it's not necessary.
As for my SB, first the Flame-Kin Zealot comes and goes from MB to SB, I can never decide. I like having both on the MB as sometimes it's easier to win with one or the other. In old times, Flame-Kin Zealot was the preferred win-con but I have such hatred for Ensnaring Bridge that I like to have outs in MB =P Just a pet-peeve.
The Noxious Revivals I'll send you to an article I read written by the genius of Manaless Dredge, Michael Keller (https://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/52180/the-cutting-room-floor-manaless-dredge-in-legacy). I think his current views are no longer in favor of the card, but as I said, my SB is just a generic one and since Noxious can also serve as a reanimator answer like Faerie Macabre, I think it is not a bad card to try.
The Sickening Shoals are there for all the critters we will find that are annoying, and I think it is better than Contagion. Things like Containment Priest and sometimes even a big reanimator (as the Phantasmagoria can deal with a Griselbrand).
Mindbreak Trap for anything Storm/Ant/Belcher, as those are other non-interactive decks that are as fast as Manaless.
- Yeah contrary to you I see Flame-Kin as my secondary kill, a tech againt Leylines of Sanctity and maybe Surgical Extraction. If there were a little room I'd for sure include it in the main. Maybe trim one Nether Shadow ? It feels like one of the less impactful creature to me. Or go down to 2x Bauble since they're just a convenience. That would free one sideboard slot.
- Thanks for the article about Noxious ! If I see in my meta a lot of Miracle and Reanimator decks, as well as decks using top-of-the-library tutors, I might consider it now
- Sickening Shoals are interesting, and wow indeed they can take care of a Griselbrand in the right situation. Hadn't realized that. I guess the only situation it's inferior to Contagion is when you want to deal with a pair of 1/1s, but that's probably rare anyway.
- Mindbreak Trap I only own a pair but I could consider going for the full playset, since it's so useful.
I'll try to build my sideboard using all your info, thanks ! =)
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8 Combo finish
4x Dread Return
3x Whirlpool Rider
1x Flayer of the Hatebound
4 General Protection
4x Cabal Therapy
Cards witch will be Main deck or in the side but will be present :
4x Faerie Macabre
4x Force of Will
Cards witch will be in the side :
4x Disrupting Shoal
2 x Mindbreak Trap
Cards witch can be found in the Sideboard:
3rd-4th Mindbreak Trap
4x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Ashen Rider
1-3x Vengeful Pharaoh
0-4x Contagion
Cards witch can be found main deck (in the last 6 cards) but not in the sideboard :
3rd-4th Shambling Shell
4th Whirlpool Rider
Undergrowth — When Lotleth Giant enters the battlefield, it deals 1 damage to target opponent for each creature card in your graveyard.
This is exciting! Where x is creatures in your graveyard, this deals x, whereas Flayer+GGT deals x+4; however this only requires 1 Dread Return with applicable targets, while Flayer+GGT requires 2 Dread Returns with either 6 targets, 3 non-token targets and a Bridge, or some other permutation to get enough sac-outlets.
This is basically a strict upgrade in Manaless because of all of the creatures. Regular Dredge still probably wants Flayer due to the higher number of non-creature spells, but Manaless has a better option now!
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
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Undergrowth — When Lotleth Giant enters the battlefield, it deals 1 damage to target opponent for each creature card in your graveyard.
This is exciting! Where x is creatures in your graveyard, this deals x, whereas Flayer+GGT deals x+4; however this only requires 1 Dread Return with applicable targets, while Flayer+GGT requires 2 Dread Returns with either 6 targets, 3 non-token targets and a Bridge, or some other permutation to get enough sac-outlets.
This is basically a strict upgrade in Manaless because of all of the creatures. Regular Dredge still probably wants Flayer due to the higher number of non-creature spells, but Manaless has a better option now!
what card are you seeing that we can remove for this one?
^pretty sure it's a replacement for Flayer, as suggested.
Anyways, I've hung up the deck myself. It's just slow enough now that it feels nowhere near as competitive, and the push towards the more interact-heavy blue variation isn't one I'm really fond of either.
Should i run petals and claims or forces and shoals in the side? I do run 4 chancellors main aswell to help on hate.
You're not "a few turns slower" on average. One of our posters did a big thing with 100s of games after Faithless Looting came out and you're only about 1 turn slower (even taking into account play/draw)
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
3 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Bridge from Below
1 Ashen Rider
3 Contagion
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Force of Will
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Prized Amalgam
1 Whirlpool Rider
As for sideboard plan, here's what Fire told me before :
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
4 Chancellor of the Annex
3 Contagion
3 Sickening Shoal
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Ashen Rider
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
I'll be playing at a new venue starting next week, so I have no idea what the meta there is like. So generally speaking, is my current SB passable in terms of competitiveness?
Why is chancellor side? He can buy essential turns so we have time to go off. Whats your main list? The rest looks ok, I might swap iona for another ashen rider depending on meta.
I started playing Manaless Dredge back in 2016, and then it wasn't so uncommon to see Chancellor in the SB. Because I was building on a budget in those days, it was simply cheaper to forgo Chancellor in the maindeck until I could afford a playset. Because I essentially learned how to play the deck without Chancellor, I guess I just stuck with what felt familiar and comfortable. Here's the current list (which hasn't changed in nearly two years):
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
4 Balustrade Spy
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Bridge from Below
1) Having Chancellor to stop turn 1 play, giving me time to assemble something turn 3.
2) Using Cabal Therapy to strip my opponent's hand.
So for sideboard, there's no way around without Force of Will or even Mindbreak Trap. You could use some additional discard maybe, but I'd rather see some finishers then.
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
R GOBLINSR
WDeath and taxesW
WRParfaitRW
2 Balustrade Spy
3 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Prized Amalgam
2 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
Enchantments:
4 Bridge from Below
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Ashen Rider
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Force of Will
2 Archive Trap
1 Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
1 Whirlpool Drake
1 Whirlpool Rider
Hi Nobunga! I love your list, it's actually only a few cards off from mine. My only real concern with it is only three Chancellors... to me it hardly seems worthwhile to even run a Leyline / Chancellor effect without running the full boat. If I remember correctly my list is -1 Shambling Shell and +1 Chancellor, and I rarely have no-dredge problems. But YMMV.
The other difference is that I'm -1 Balustrade and +1 Griselbrand. Functionally, Grizzy is about equivalent to Ballsy in terms of deck-flippage. As long as you have 7 life to spend (which most of the time you will) and a dredger or two to play with, he can typically flip your deck, or enough of it to either find the Flayer combo, or generate such a massive pile of dudes as to make you unstoppable. He can also just play beatdown or threaten to block and gain life. Balustrade is technically slightly better as he guarantees the combo but the split provides a touch more protection against various hate cards.
I've also had one opponent actually side in Torpor Orb against me, which shuts down both Spy and Flayer. I mentioned this to a friend and they suggested boarding in a combo package of Triskelion + The Mimeoplasm. Mimeo eats a Grave-Troll and Trike and becomes a huge/huge trike that guns the oppo down with activated ability rather than a 187 trigger. (Note that Mimeo is an "as-enters" replacement, not a "when enters" trigger, so he works through Torpor Orb). IDK if this is worth sideboard space though since Torpor Orb is hardly a common hate card. There are also times when the oppo uses Leyline so you need Flamekin Zealot instead.
Some of your sb pieces confuse me a bit. In what matchups would you prefer Grand Arbiter to a fourth Chancellor? I guess it's better at stopping Eldrazi on-cast triggers than Chancellor, but I can't see any other way in which it's better. I guess you can use it to force a DR past a Daze, but first you have to resolve a DR on Grand Arbiter past that same Daze anyway. So really you beat Daze by just having more DR's / FOW's than they have counters, or tearing their hand apart with Therapies. Other than that I'm not certain what purpose he serves. Is he just a Chancellor that increases your blue card density? I think I'd rather have a Mindbreak Trap for Storm in that slot.
Ancestor's Chosen is a nice touch but Resolute Archangel is strictly better from a Reanimator standpoint IMO. Flying, and will gain a useful amount of life even if we have to panic-reanimate it on a small yard. Ancestor's Chosen might put us in the position of having to slow down our Ichorid feasting to conserve fuel for lifegain, while Resolute just goes to 20 no matter what. Of course, on a full yard Chosen can set us to a ridiculous life total but if we have a full yard why aren't we just winning instead? I'd say both are poor substitutes for Gnaw to the Bone but in Manaless, we have limited options.
What purpose do the Archive Traps serve? I'm trying to think of decks where we want to mill them for 13 approximately once ever. (Only two copies makes it very unlikely we will ever be holding two before we go into dredge-only mode). I'm drawing a blank but this seems like such a strange case I'm sure you have a good plan for it. Maybe just to fight against topdeck tutors? But I thought Vampiric tutor was banned? Is this to fight Sneak & Show and similar "fatty off the top" decks? Trouble is, a lot of those lists just use scrying and Top to set up their flip rather than Worldly Tutors like they used to. Scrying and top don't let us cast Archive Trap. So I'm still a bit mystified. For me these would also be Mindbreak Traps to fight Storm bc with them on the play, I find Storm typically can go off just barely before we can kill them, so we have to have ways to interact and I don't think 4x FoW is enough. :/ Have you alternatively considered Disrupting Shoal as an additional countermagic piece?
I have to say I really like the Whirlpool Drake and I'm considering testing him in my build. The double-Rider effect is amazing, the fact that it works right past a Torpor Orb is gravy, and the fact that unlike Griselbrand or Rider it allows you to fine-tune your library dumping. Heck, you can carefully set it up to leave yourself one card almost every single time, allowing you your combo win and anti-millout insurance in case they have something silly like a fog or Angel's Grace effect (I have actually heard of a Dredge deck losing to a sideboarded Angel's Grace being used in exactly this fashion - genius). This reduces the need to worry about saving a DR to use a Thug to stop millout in such circumstances, and also saves a sideboard slot some people (including me) spend on Progenitus. I think I will start testing Drake immediately! But do you run him and Rider just to diversify your combo pieces to fight against hate cards like Extraction? Or are there matchups where you find them actually superior to Balustrade Spy?
Finally, I like Ashen Rider but I try to always find room for two. An Elesh Norn can also be a great sb add if you are worried about facing Elves.
--Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., who is up in Heaven now. EDH WUBRG Child of Alara WUBRG BGW Karador, Ghost Chieftain BGW RGW Mayael the Anima RGW WUB Sharuum the Hegemon WUB RWU Zedruu the Greathearted RWU
WB Ghost Council of Orzhova WB RG Ulasht, the Hate Seed RG B Korlash, Heir to Blackblade B G Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer G *click the general's name to see my list!*
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
-Retired Decks-
UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Nether Shadow
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Balustrade Spy
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Shambling Shell
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Ichorid
4 Street Wraith
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Bridge from Below
Sorcery
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
2 Ashen Rider
1 Legacy Weapon
4 Sickening Shoal
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Noxious Revival
I think we can very much survive the probe banning. If you absolute must have it, the probable best substitute is one of the Baubles, Mishra or Urza's.
The version I'm using has a generic sideboard as the metagame here is always changing. Also, Legacy Weapon is my poor man's version of Progenitus =P
I have a Manaless Dredge deck but I must say I play Legacy VERY rarely, so my judgment is not worth much.
This is my current Postban list :
1x Balustrade Spy
4x Chancellor of the Annex
1x Flayer of the Hatebound
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Golgari Thug
1x Griselbrand
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Nether Shadow
4x Phantasmagorian
4x Prized Amalgam
2x Shambling Shell
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Street Wraith
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Dread Return
Enchantment (4)
4x Bridge from Below
Artifact (3)
3x Urza's Bauble
2x Ashen Rider
3x Faerie Macabre
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Mindbreak Trap
1x Progenitus
I feel Baubles are important, since they allow us to dredge a first time during the opponent's turn. They're not Probes, for sure, but I feel like they're better than just dropping the idea of a 0 cmc draw spell. What do you think ?
I'm also trying to rebuild my sideboard post ban. Now that we have a whole playset of blue cards that's down, I feel Force of Will and Disrupting Shoals are harder to justify.
So far I have :
2x Ashen Rider
3x Faerie Macabre / Surgical Extraction
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Mindbreak Trap
1x Progenitus
So I still have a little bit of room.
@ArkhangelAzrael : can you tell what the Noxious Revivals and Sickening Shoals are for ? I'm intrigued.
Also, you should just buy a "promo" Progenitus, it's actually pretty cheap
Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro
Legacy : Goblins
So, about the Balustrade Spy, I think it's just a matter of preference. Some people like the combo to be the main win condition (so 4 copies makes it more likely) while others think of it as a secondary win condition, so 2 copies is enough, sometimes only 1. I have tried both and I think it really is a matter of meta and personal preference. If your meta is very fast, the combo allows you to win on the spot, if your meta is slower and has more answers, you might want those Balustrade Spies to be Force of Wills or some other defense cards.
The baubles are not bad, but I do think they are not necessary. You need 4x for a chance that they are in your opening hand and even so, you can't cast them on the first turn, you will most likely only be able to reap the benefits on your opponents third turn at best. i'm testing them, but most professional manaless dredge players have already accepted that you can live without.
As for my SB, first the Flame-Kin Zealot comes and goes from MB to SB, I can never decide. I like having both on the MB as sometimes it's easier to win with one or the other. In old times, Flame-Kin Zealot was the preferred win-con but I have such hatred for Ensnaring Bridge that I like to have outs in MB =P Just a pet-peeve.
The Noxious Revivals I'll send you to an article I read written by the genius of Manaless Dredge, Michael Keller (https://jupitergames.info/articles/2012/52180/the-cutting-room-floor-manaless-dredge-in-legacy). I think his current views are no longer in favor of the card, but as I said, my SB is just a generic one and since Noxious can also serve as a reanimator answer like Faerie Macabre, I think it is not a bad card to try.
The Sickening Shoals are there for all the critters we will find that are annoying, and I think it is better than Contagion. Things like Containment Priest and sometimes even a big reanimator (as the Phantasmagoria can deal with a Griselbrand).
Mindbreak Trap for anything Storm/Ant/Belcher, as those are other non-interactive decks that are as fast as Manaless.
Leyline is also an excellent choice if your meta is full of burn and discard (and ANT/Belcher/Storm too!) (sadly, I sold mine a long time ago as I never expected them to spike so much, so now I don't fell like paying for it again =P)
Ashen Rider (and Progenitus when I have one) are for Show And Tell. Ashen is also a good Dread Return target all around.
I think the current primer is in favor of having some form of answer to reanimator (usually Faerie) plus Force of Will and Whirlpool Rider in MB, removing the Balustrade Combo, probe and most, if not all, Shambling Shells. Chancellor is contentious, some like it, some prefer just FOW. There has also been talks about 1x Vengeful Pharaoh somewhere in the 75, which I think is a cool thing to try!
My personal preference is to not run FOW, I like to be the absolute glass cannon, I'm just a Johnny, not a Spike hehehe.
All in all, the best thing about manaless dredge is that the community is again talking about it, and the more versions we have the better!
Thanks for the tip about the Progenitus!
Thanks for your insight
That means maybe I could add 1 or 2 additionnal Balustrade Spies in the side I could bring in case I need to go faster.
Or just go with the full playset main deck... frankly I'd consider trimming the Chancellors to make room and move them sideboard but I'm reading on this topic that it's widely seen as a bad idea ^^
If the bauble is in your opening hand you will indeed reap the benefits on your opponent's third turn, but it then garanties you a strong third turn. If you don't have baubles in your deck, it feels you're relying a lot on Street Wraiths to enable a fast Dredge or on the biggest Dredgers to hit your yard early but sometimes you only have a Thug and it's pretty slow.
I know the card is far from ideal, but I see it as a backup plan to kickstart the deck again if it sputters. Thus the 3x set instead of a 4x sorta makes sense : it's only a plan B so if I've got it in my opening hand that's sweet, if not it's no big deal.
But maybe it's not the right mentality and I'll change my mind after some playtesting. I totally see your point that it's not necessary.
- Yeah contrary to you I see Flame-Kin as my secondary kill, a tech againt Leylines of Sanctity and maybe Surgical Extraction. If there were a little room I'd for sure include it in the main. Maybe trim one Nether Shadow ? It feels like one of the less impactful creature to me. Or go down to 2x Bauble since they're just a convenience. That would free one sideboard slot.
- Thanks for the article about Noxious ! If I see in my meta a lot of Miracle and Reanimator decks, as well as decks using top-of-the-library tutors, I might consider it now
- Sickening Shoals are interesting, and wow indeed they can take care of a Griselbrand in the right situation. Hadn't realized that. I guess the only situation it's inferior to Contagion is when you want to deal with a pair of 1/1s, but that's probably rare anyway.
- Mindbreak Trap I only own a pair but I could consider going for the full playset, since it's so useful.
I'll try to build my sideboard using all your info, thanks ! =)
Modern : Solemnity Prison Martyr Proc Devotion to Green 8 Whacks Eldrazi Processor Bogles Landfall Aggro
Legacy : Goblins
54/ 60 Main deck :
14 Dredgers
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Golgari Thug
4x Stinkweed Imp
2x Shambling Shell
8 Explosive Starts
4x Phantasmagorian
4x Street Wraith
20 Free Creatures
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Nether Shadow
4x Prized Amalgam
4x Bridge from Below
8 Combo finish
4x Dread Return
3x Whirlpool Rider
1x Flayer of the Hatebound
4 General Protection
4x Cabal Therapy
Cards witch will be Main deck or in the side but will be present :
4x Faerie Macabre
4x Force of Will
Cards witch will be in the side :
4x Disrupting Shoal
2 x Mindbreak Trap
Cards witch can be found in the Sideboard:
3rd-4th Mindbreak Trap
4x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Ashen Rider
1-3x Vengeful Pharaoh
0-4x Contagion
Cards witch can be found main deck (in the last 6 cards) but not in the sideboard :
3rd-4th Shambling Shell
4th Whirlpool Rider
Creature - Zombie Giant
Undergrowth — When Lotleth Giant enters the battlefield, it deals 1 damage to target opponent for each creature card in your graveyard.
This is exciting! Where x is creatures in your graveyard, this deals x, whereas Flayer+GGT deals x+4; however this only requires 1 Dread Return with applicable targets, while Flayer+GGT requires 2 Dread Returns with either 6 targets, 3 non-token targets and a Bridge, or some other permutation to get enough sac-outlets.
This is basically a strict upgrade in Manaless because of all of the creatures. Regular Dredge still probably wants Flayer due to the higher number of non-creature spells, but Manaless has a better option now!
Red Deck Wins R
Dredge U R B G
Dredge W U R B G / Belcher<3
Dredge W U R B G
Dredge B G - What is "competitive EDH"?
Magic is just applied math. Check out my Math Megathread and feel free to PM me questions!
I don't care if you're having fun, as long as I'm having fun. ~Bryant Cook
Meta discussion is not considered out of game. Boxing is about punching people in the face.
Punching your opponent in the face outside the ring is still considered assault. ~KamikazeArchon
what card are you seeing that we can remove for this one?
Anyways, I've hung up the deck myself. It's just slow enough now that it feels nowhere near as competitive, and the push towards the more interact-heavy blue variation isn't one I'm really fond of either.
Flying solo with EDH now, I'm done with legacy :/
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
-Retired Decks-
UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
This was what I found. Not too sure about Lotleth Giant over Flayer of the Hatebound, either...