If you're running Force of Will to counter hate spells, why are you on Dredge at all rather than Burn, Landstill, or Storm?
Repeating myself here. I'd suggest trying it as opposed to dismissing it out of hand. It is very strong. And you're example is terribe, as the FoW list runs those cards as well.
You have both reactive and proactive disruption while still executing your game plan. Again, and it is very good. I'd suggest trying it at a couple local events.
Hey guys!! I'm new here.. i was a modern only player for the last couple of years and a standard enthusiast before that.. since in where i used to live, noone played legacy..
I just moved to japan recently and found out that legacy community is huge in here, i tried to build up this manaless dredge since ot is one of the cheapest options for legacy, and finally made it, and going to test it in the next local tournamnet..
However i have a big problem with running this deck, which is card-naming with cabal therapy.. against blue decks i would just name FoW or Daze most of the time, but i am not really sure about any other carrs that i should call when facing decks like death&taxes or eldrazi..
Can you guys give this manaless dredge junior some hands on running this deck properly in the sense of cabal therapy?
Against D&T I'd name thalia 100%, as it shuts us off of dread returns or cabal therapies for the rest of the game, which makes it much harder to win, although still possible. Against eldrazi I'd name smasher or TKS, leaning towards TKS as it can take a dredger or combo peice out of our hand before we discard it to phantasmagorian. G2 against eldrazi I'd probably want to name thorn of amethyst more than thought-knot, as most lists I've seen run 2-4 in board for that deck, and that card, like thalia, shuts us off of casting any dread regurns or cabal therapies. Against blue decks like delver I always name daze over FoW because at least FoW costs another card and a life, daze just sets them back a land drop, which most delver decks just need 2-3 to operate at full capacity.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Catch me playing control in every format I can!
Modern: UW, Jeskai, Grixis, Blue moon, Esper, Sultai, UB, UWish
Legacy: Miracles
I played the deck for 1-4 today.. won only to cascade deck, lost to storm, burn, eldrazi and enchantments.. almost got it with burn, Only not enough creatures to activate dread return..
The other ones, i lost to leyline of the voids, grafdigger cage and main deck rest in peace... -_-
My inclination would be to cut FKZ for the 4th Spy. In what situations is FKZ better?
It is another win con. It wins by attacking with creatures vs a more combo oriented win. I only have to resolve a single dread return with FKZ to attack with zombie tokens, as opposed to 2 dread returns with the Flayer/Grave Troll win. Sometimes you don't have enough creatures to cast 2 dread returns, especially if you want to Cabal Therapy first or are light on Bridges in the grave. 4 Spys feel like a lot in a decklist this tight.
On my main deck I focused mainly to execute the combo as soon as possible since there are just few hate cards on G1. I find Whirlpool Rider to be a better replacement for Balustrade Spy because they could also used to pitch for FOW and Disrupting Shoal for 2 cost hate cards like RIP and Thalia Guardian of Thraben during G2 and G3.
Riders sideboard instead of main, only 2 Shoals, Progenitus as an anti-mill option.
It's not drastically different or anything like that, just an interesting configuration.
So it's not really unique in any way? I see a lot of these lists and don't see why that one is any different. All the things you listed are commonplace for this deck. He is just trying to minimize the clogging up that normally happens in the blue sideboards by diluting what makes the deck good IMO. Countermagic is generally bad in a deck that frequently goes hellbent and uses the graveyard like ours does. I've never had a counter when i needed it when i ran them, and just feel like they take away most of your sideboard for little to no gain, if not just a straight up loss.
I think the Miracles matchup is very good, but obviously depends on what they're running in terms of hate.
I have to agree on Force/Shoal, after testing that configuration I wasn't impressed. There's so little hard hate in Legacy that I think risking it is right - and as I like to say, if you were wrong to play Fearless (no-anti-hate) you were probably wrong to play Dredge at all.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am the author of the "Resource Advantage in Magic" series over on EternalCentral.com
New Manaless player here thanks (partially) to the Modern GGT ban. I think that I will upgrade to LED dredge overtime (unless you guys convince me otherwise) but wanted to start with a more budget option in Manaless. I think that I will start with a whirlpool rider mainboard version and see where it takes me. Just wanted to stop by and say hey!
I followed VegaTDM's advice and put a FKZ in and have really liked having it. Especially with all the DRS' in my meta, it's nice to have another option for winning.
As for the people who aren't into the counter magic SB plan, any sideboard suggestions? I'm really trying to find a SB I like, but not sure what to use. VegaTDM? Any update on your SB? Thanks!
My SB is a mix of reanimation targets & tech free spells. Free spells like Sickening Shoal & Contagion help deal with annoying aggro creatures and most importantly, Deathrite Shaman. Leyline of Sanctity is also a free spell that counters common strategies like burn, however it is only usable if you get it in your opening hand. Reanimation targets can get tricky, ideally you just want to Grave Troll combo win if it is safe to start casting dread return. However, certain creatures can win on the spot just as easily against certain decks. Angel of Despair/Ashen Rider kill annoying things, and are great against a SneakShow player when they cast Show and Tell. Terastodon & Woodfall Primus kill noncreatures that get in your way, most importantly Glacial Chasm(which Angle & Rider also hit). Stormtide Leviathan & Blazing Archon all but shut down creature based decks. Ancestor's Chosen is normally a massive lifegain spell that helps against burn and aggro decks that bring the pressure before we can stabilize and get our engine running. Iona, Shield of Emeria shuts people out of an entire color, either completely housing a monocolored deck, or simply turning off cards in their hand we saw with Cabal Therapy. I have also tried more universal threats like Griselbrand & Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur. While these are good value, they usually don't win you the game on the spot and are more vulnerable to counter strategies.
If you're running Force of Will to counter hate spells, why are you on Dredge at all rather than Burn, Landstill, or Storm?
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Repeating myself here. I'd suggest trying it as opposed to dismissing it out of hand. It is very strong. And you're example is terribe, as the FoW list runs those cards as well.
You have both reactive and proactive disruption while still executing your game plan. Again, and it is very good. I'd suggest trying it at a couple local events.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
I just moved to japan recently and found out that legacy community is huge in here, i tried to build up this manaless dredge since ot is one of the cheapest options for legacy, and finally made it, and going to test it in the next local tournamnet..
However i have a big problem with running this deck, which is card-naming with cabal therapy.. against blue decks i would just name FoW or Daze most of the time, but i am not really sure about any other carrs that i should call when facing decks like death&taxes or eldrazi..
Can you guys give this manaless dredge junior some hands on running this deck properly in the sense of cabal therapy?
Modern: UW, Jeskai, Grixis, Blue moon, Esper, Sultai, UB, UWish
Legacy: Miracles
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
The other ones, i lost to leyline of the voids, grafdigger cage and main deck rest in peace... -_-
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
3 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
It is another win con. It wins by attacking with creatures vs a more combo oriented win. I only have to resolve a single dread return with FKZ to attack with zombie tokens, as opposed to 2 dread returns with the Flayer/Grave Troll win. Sometimes you don't have enough creatures to cast 2 dread returns, especially if you want to Cabal Therapy first or are light on Bridges in the grave. 4 Spys feel like a lot in a decklist this tight.
Oh, hello btw. new to the manadredge scene.
They have the best synergy together, other than that it is just crappy FoW 5-8.
Thank you!
Follow up question, when do you normally side in the 8 counters and which cards do you usually remove? I don't have a final decklist yet
1 Balustrade Spy
3 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Prized Amalgam
2 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
2 Whirlpool Rider
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Bridge from Below
SIDEBOARD
1 Ashen Rider
2 Contagion
4 Disrupting Shoal
2 Faerie Macabre
4 Force of Will
2 Vengeful Pharaoh
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14091&d=283789&f=LE
On my main deck I focused mainly to execute the combo as soon as possible since there are just few hate cards on G1. I find Whirlpool Rider to be a better replacement for Balustrade Spy because they could also used to pitch for FOW and Disrupting Shoal for 2 cost hate cards like RIP and Thalia Guardian of Thraben during G2 and G3.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-premier-2017-01-15
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
this just looks like the standard blue countermagic side board to me. Whats different?
It's not drastically different or anything like that, just an interesting configuration.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
So it's not really unique in any way? I see a lot of these lists and don't see why that one is any different. All the things you listed are commonplace for this deck. He is just trying to minimize the clogging up that normally happens in the blue sideboards by diluting what makes the deck good IMO. Countermagic is generally bad in a deck that frequently goes hellbent and uses the graveyard like ours does. I've never had a counter when i needed it when i ran them, and just feel like they take away most of your sideboard for little to no gain, if not just a straight up loss.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
I have to agree on Force/Shoal, after testing that configuration I wasn't impressed. There's so little hard hate in Legacy that I think risking it is right - and as I like to say, if you were wrong to play Fearless (no-anti-hate) you were probably wrong to play Dredge at all.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
As for the people who aren't into the counter magic SB plan, any sideboard suggestions? I'm really trying to find a SB I like, but not sure what to use. VegaTDM? Any update on your SB? Thanks!
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/