Basking Rootwalla can be played off of a discard, whereas a 0 cmc creature, if played, means you will not get to discard. That is why Rootwalla has an advantage over 0 CMC creatures.
Rootwalla means you can have a 7 card opening hand, discard Phantasmagorian at the end of turn, then later trigger Phantasmagorian, discarding a dredger, possibly another dredger, and a Rootwalla. The Rootwalla can then be cast.
Whereas with a 0 cmc, you play it, then can't discard anything for another turn, thus missing the change to dredge on turn two.
If you have Phantasmagorian in graveyard and Memnite in hand you have a discard opportunity (just use the Phantasmagorian, silly); Rootwalla only has an advantage when either the instant speed is relevant or the number of cards in your hand is a limiting factor (in terms of needing multiples of 3 for Phantasmagorian, not in terms of needing 8 cards to discard to hand size). I consider both of those to be pretty rare conditions.
If you don't have Phantasmagorian, you can't realistically play Rootwalla at all, and you can play a 0-cmc creature. I consider that to be a pretty common condition.
Whether you can afford to discard to hand size in terms of your dredger count in the graveyard is agnostic between the two, in both cases you give up 1 card in hand to get a 1/1 creature. Whether you cast a creature and therefore don't have a discard at all, or you discard the creature to hand size and therefore don't get to discard anything else, is totally the same result. The opponent even gets priority in cleanup if you discard Rootwalla (or any Madness spell), so there's no stack timing advantage to be had. (Unless they were holding up removal for your 1/1 and spent the mana on something else in the end step)
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I am the author of the "Resource Advantage in Magic" series over on EternalCentral.com
Would you go to a 30 people tournament with no sideboard at all?
I expect mostly Stompy variants (AIR, Big Red, Eldrazi, Demon Stompy), Burn, Deadthblade variants and a couple Miracles. Almost no combo.
Edit:
There were 34 players, I Went 5-0-1 and lost to Show & Tell on semis.
Beat Lands, Shardless, Miracles and Nic Fit 2-0, Burn and D&T 2-1.
List is the average with -1 Shambling Shell, +1 Terastodon and no sideboard.
Amalgam has replaced Shambling Shell as a 3-of in my list and I don't see myself going back. The slightly lower dredger count hasn't really been an issue for me just yet, there was only one time in any of my testing (or playing) that I would have rather it be Shell, and plenty of times I was glad it was Amalgam instead of Shell.
So yeah, yesterday...I blame the matchups mostly.
I went 2-0 against Spiral Tide in round 1.
Round 2 I went 0-2 against Maverick.
Round 3 I went 0-2 against...Maverick..again.
Round 4 I went 1-2 against Infect. Freakin' Bojuka Bog/Crop Rotation, shame because I actually put up a solid board before ultimately getting taken down in game 3.
Serra Avatar should be Blightsteel, but I haven't gotten around to picking a copy of him up again just yet. Vengeful Pharaoh in the board was just some tech I thought was kinda cute and it's tested well enough for me that I'm kinda favoring him over a 4th Leyline of the Void.
I'm currently testing Amalgams because Shells really are the worst card in the deck and after a hundred games It's been only 7 times I had an Amalgam and no dredger in my opening hand. Then again, it's been 26 times Amalgams came back one turn too late wether I won or lost.
I've won off of Amalgam before in my testing. Either by getting another body (or two..or three) when I needed them, or even just beating down with him. It's also nice to have something that can come out of the yard that doesn't die to Norn.
Sirius_B - this is not based on testing, but you want as many hands as possible to be "live" when you draw your opener. Shells help with that, but can see the value of the odd amalgam. Out of your 100 games, did the Amalgam win you any (if they return too late and you won, doesn't matter - if they return too late and you loose, its no different to having shell in the deck). If you have 7 hands that are worse, but 15 that turn out better, that's perhaps a reasonable rate. If you have 7 worse and only 7 better, I would question if it's really worth it, since we're already pretty glass-cannon-y.
My gut instinct is that a single amalgam in place of 1 shell might be ok. Because we dredge so agressively, that 1-of will come up more than you think. But, you haven't damaged your opening hands by 7% - it may just be 2%. A 2% decrease in opening hands for a 5% increased win rate would be pretty good. It's all theory, but that's my gut instinct on it. This deck really doesn't want to mulligan, so taking out a bunch of dredgers can't be great for it.
Yes I've won otherwise lost games vs Thalia and Eldrazi that Ichorid and Shadow alone would have never won.
Maybe we finally have an actual sideboard tech that doesn't dilute the strategy. Amalgams for when you want to go aggro, Shells for when you need to combo ASAP.
I'm going to be get Amalgam at some point, wouldn't cut any dredge creatures for them, my list still runs 2 Bauble which will get cut for them. So I'll have 18 dredgers, 14 free creatures.
I am new to this deck and I want to know how necessary Force of Will is to the strategy. They are a good price right now, but still pretty $$.
Currently I was thinking Unmask could take that spot in my SB.
How many of you find the blue counterspell suite to be essential?
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Legacy:B The Gate // B Pox Modern:RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox EDH:RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal Tiny Leaders:BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
I am building the deck and playing it a lot on Xmage, and I have some questions. I'm also new to legacy so it may just be a learning experiment.
How do you guys sideboard? I am playing Jeremiah Wolfgang's list from SCG Somerset, with prized amalgams. I have been boarding out Amalgams for Shoal or Contagion, and Shells for Chancellor (essentially 3 - for 3 or 4 - for - 4), is that the right play?
Also, what are the pros/cons of running the anti hate cards in sideboard? I can't find any videos or explanations as to how you get your forest and cast your nature's claim with major hate in play like Leyline.
It gives you game against the decks biggest issue, good grave hate and faster combo, while no weakening it's strengths. You still fold to leyline, but that can't be helped.
It gives you game against the decks biggest issue, good grave hate and faster combo, while no weakening it's strengths. You still fold to leyline, but that can't be helped.
I don't know if I need FoWs. They don't seem very viable or iffy at least. I'd rather use Lion's Eye Diamonds or something/anything else.
I don't know if I need FoWs. They don't seem very viable or iffy at least. I'd rather use Lion's Eye Diamonds or something/anything else.
I've played with both cards extensively across Manaless & LED dredge.
Manaless can benefit from Force, not only due to your opponent having something countered, but also because of the *threat* of having their combo piece or hate potentially countered. I've seen opponents' play out their hand slower after finding out I might be on Force. Thing is, an extra turn can be enough for us to get a critical mass of zombies to win.
You don't need Force - and I'm probably one of the biggest spruikers of the Force strategy! I've been playing it for quite a while. It's very effective when it works, but it's not necessary at all.
I would argue that LED is not optimal in manaless - it just doesn't really add anything other than a magnet for counter.
FoW is not totally necessary, in manaless, but it is the highest power-level option for the deck with dealing with cards you otherwise lose on the spot to. Discarding their RiP will typically work, but if they brainstorm it on top or just raw-dog another one youre sunk.
What's more, it gives you lots of game against faster combo decks that you didn't have before.
If you have access to the card I'd strongly recommend trying it before dismissing it out of hand. It is very, very good in dredge, and manaless has actual space for it main.
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Rootwalla is different from a Memnite, but plausibly worse and I don't think it's plausible that it's way better
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Rootwalla means you can have a 7 card opening hand, discard Phantasmagorian at the end of turn, then later trigger Phantasmagorian, discarding a dredger, possibly another dredger, and a Rootwalla. The Rootwalla can then be cast.
Whereas with a 0 cmc, you play it, then can't discard anything for another turn, thus missing the change to dredge on turn two.
If you don't have Phantasmagorian, you can't realistically play Rootwalla at all, and you can play a 0-cmc creature. I consider that to be a pretty common condition.
Whether you can afford to discard to hand size in terms of your dredger count in the graveyard is agnostic between the two, in both cases you give up 1 card in hand to get a 1/1 creature. Whether you cast a creature and therefore don't have a discard at all, or you discard the creature to hand size and therefore don't get to discard anything else, is totally the same result. The opponent even gets priority in cleanup if you discard Rootwalla (or any Madness spell), so there's no stack timing advantage to be had. (Unless they were holding up removal for your 1/1 and spent the mana on something else in the end step)
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
I expect mostly Stompy variants (AIR, Big Red, Eldrazi, Demon Stompy), Burn, Deadthblade variants and a couple Miracles. Almost no combo.
Edit:
There were 34 players, I Went 5-0-1 and lost to Show & Tell on semis.
Beat Lands, Shardless, Miracles and Nic Fit 2-0, Burn and D&T 2-1.
List is the average with -1 Shambling Shell, +1 Terastodon and no sideboard.
Amalgam has replaced Shambling Shell as a 3-of in my list and I don't see myself going back. The slightly lower dredger count hasn't really been an issue for me just yet, there was only one time in any of my testing (or playing) that I would have rather it be Shell, and plenty of times I was glad it was Amalgam instead of Shell.
So yeah, yesterday...I blame the matchups mostly.
I went 2-0 against Spiral Tide in round 1.
Round 2 I went 0-2 against Maverick.
Round 3 I went 0-2 against...Maverick..again.
Round 4 I went 1-2 against Infect. Freakin' Bojuka Bog/Crop Rotation, shame because I actually put up a solid board before ultimately getting taken down in game 3.
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
-Retired Decks-
UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Dryad Arbor variants tend to not go with Balustrade Spy, due to the lack of synergy between them, but offers ways to combat hate via the likes of Nature's Claim and Reverent Silence out of the sideboard.
List I'm currently running is:
3 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Golgaria Thug
1 Griselbrand
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
3 Prized Amalgam
1 Serra Avatar
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Bridge from Below
1 Ashen Rider
2 Contagion
2 Faerie Macabre
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Sickening Shoal
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
Serra Avatar should be Blightsteel, but I haven't gotten around to picking a copy of him up again just yet. Vengeful Pharaoh in the board was just some tech I thought was kinda cute and it's tested well enough for me that I'm kinda favoring him over a 4th Leyline of the Void.
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
-Retired Decks-
UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Thanks.
I'm currently testing Amalgams because Shells really are the worst card in the deck and after a hundred games It's been only 7 times I had an Amalgam and no dredger in my opening hand. Then again, it's been 26 times Amalgams came back one turn too late wether I won or lost.
What do you guys think about the card?
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
-Retired Decks-
UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Yes I've won otherwise lost games vs Thalia and Eldrazi that Ichorid and Shadow alone would have never won.
Maybe we finally have an actual sideboard tech that doesn't dilute the strategy. Amalgams for when you want to go aggro, Shells for when you need to combo ASAP.
Reanimator, Maverick, Death and Taxes are ones I have used it against (get rid of Griselbrand/Norn/Iona, Thalia, Containment Priest).
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
-Retired Decks-
UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Currently I was thinking Unmask could take that spot in my SB.
How many of you find the blue counterspell suite to be essential?
Modern: RGB Dredge // RBG Goblins // B The Gate // UBR Tezz AoB Control // RBG Prison Pox
EDH: RBU Thraximundar // R Norin the Wary // RWB Kaalia of the Vast // BUR Grixis Combos // BU Gisa and Geralf Tribal
Tiny Leaders: BUW Sydri, Galvanic Genius // R Feldon of the Third Path
Projects:
Gisa and Geralf Extreme-Tribal EDH
Esper Eldrazi Processor Control
Brewing with Kuldotha Forgemaster
Primer: "The Gate" - Mono Black in Modern
Modern Prison Pox - building a better plague
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
How do you guys sideboard? I am playing Jeremiah Wolfgang's list from SCG Somerset, with prized amalgams. I have been boarding out Amalgams for Shoal or Contagion, and Shells for Chancellor (essentially 3 - for 3 or 4 - for - 4), is that the right play?
Also, what are the pros/cons of running the anti hate cards in sideboard? I can't find any videos or explanations as to how you get your forest and cast your nature's claim with major hate in play like Leyline.
UR Storm
RBG Dredge
EDH:
UR Mizzix
GB Gitrog
WB Daxos
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=13462&d=279096&f=LE
Nice find! I've added it to the OP. (edit: and a number of other decks from this year as well)
I suppose I need to add Prized Amalgam and Vengeful Pharaoh at some point soon
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Someone post what's working so I can ask questions, lol. Thanks in advance <3
If you have access to FoW I'd start with this:
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
3 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
4 Street Wraith
4 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Phantasmagorian
3 Force of Will
2 Shambling Shell
1 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Disrupting Shoal
3 Whirlpool Rider
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Ashen Rider
1 Force of Will
1 Vengeful Pharoah
It gives you game against the decks biggest issue, good grave hate and faster combo, while no weakening it's strengths. You still fold to leyline, but that can't be helped.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
I don't know if I need FoWs. They don't seem very viable or iffy at least. I'd rather use Lion's Eye Diamonds or something/anything else.
I've played with both cards extensively across Manaless & LED dredge.
Manaless can benefit from Force, not only due to your opponent having something countered, but also because of the *threat* of having their combo piece or hate potentially countered. I've seen opponents' play out their hand slower after finding out I might be on Force. Thing is, an extra turn can be enough for us to get a critical mass of zombies to win.
You don't need Force - and I'm probably one of the biggest spruikers of the Force strategy! I've been playing it for quite a while. It's very effective when it works, but it's not necessary at all.
I would argue that LED is not optimal in manaless - it just doesn't really add anything other than a magnet for counter.
FoW is not totally necessary, in manaless, but it is the highest power-level option for the deck with dealing with cards you otherwise lose on the spot to. Discarding their RiP will typically work, but if they brainstorm it on top or just raw-dog another one youre sunk.
What's more, it gives you lots of game against faster combo decks that you didn't have before.
If you have access to the card I'd strongly recommend trying it before dismissing it out of hand. It is very, very good in dredge, and manaless has actual space for it main.