Thanks! I could talk quite a bit about the differences between Vintage and Legacy and how that influences Dredge main-deck and Dredge/anti-Dredge sideboard construction.
(If anyone is interested)
@Carysh What's your full list? What would you cut for another Chancellor?
I've updated the primer with an additional decklist (in the decklists section) and the composite build I keep recommending (in the "Building the Main-deck" section)
I have added a "Minutiae" section with stuff like Urza's Bauble vs Mishra's, which shuffle creature to run, and any other similarly fiddly detail which merits consideration in the future.
While the "Fearless Spy" version has overall done well for me, I think with the SCG St Louis Legacy Open in sight later this year, I'm going to try the blue version of Manaless. It hasn't really put up impressive results yet, but through some intense trading of rotating Standard cards the last 4 weeks I have acquired 4 Force of Will, so I figured I can go easily pick up some Disrupting Shoal and try it out. Being able to fight Grafdigger's Cage and Rest in Peace is really appealing. The Fearless version is really good for 3-5 round tournaments, but blue in theory seems strong for longer tournaments.
Any thoughts on it? I originally thought it looked clunky but I'm starting to come around.
I spent a little time this weekend surveying sideboards, and it looks like there's about 2 hate pieces per sideboard right now, which is actually slightly high for Legacy. Primarily, this is Grafdigger's Cage and Rest in Peace, but it also includes a few Nihil Spellbomb and Relic of Progenitus here and there. Obviously stuff like Extirpate/Surgical Extraction also sees some play but not as much currently and we can play through/around it anyway.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I am the author of the "Resource Advantage in Magic" series over on EternalCentral.com
I am just starting to play Manaless and will be playing against Reanimator a bunch. Can somebody let me know what is the best sideboard strategy for this decklist? Or what should I change for sideboard for reanimator?
Reanimator is a terrible match up for Manaless Dredge as they can easily grab Elesh Norn which kills all of our creatures.
Sickening Shoal pitching Phantasmagorian is pretty much the only way to remove her once she its play.
Surgical Extraction and Faerie Macabre are probably your best options. You can also run Leyline of the Voids if it gets to be a big enough problem.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"If we don't know what we are doing, the enemy certainly can't anticipate our future actions!"
-Anonymous
I'm running a pretty orthodox Spy list, but I'm wondering about my sideboard. My local meta is mixed, I've dealt with Storm, Elves, BUG Shardless, Food Chain, White Stax, RUG Delver, Stoneblade, Jund, Pox, High Tide, Infect, and others.
But I'm wondering if a Dryad Arbor with a Ray of Revelation and Ancient Grudge list might be more useful. I'm also quite new to the deck, and have to get in a lot more goldfishing before I actually take it in for a tourney.
Thanks!
edit: Wait, the Arbor would stop the Spy, right? So it would be -4 Spy and some others, then +4 Arbor and anti-hate?
Reanimator is a terrible match up for Manaless Dredge as they can easily grab Elesh Norn which kills all of our creatures.
Sickening Shoal pitching Phantasmagorian is pretty much the only way to remove her once she its play.
Surgical Extraction and Faerie Macabre are probably your best options. You can also run Leyline of the Voids if it gets to be a big enough problem.
What should be removed when I sideboard for reanimator though...Mishra's Bauble, Serra Avatar, maybe Street Wraith?
I've been goldfishing pretty heavily and I am doing really well on remembering upkeep triggers and not missing the little things. I have not goldfished game 2/3 though.
is the likes of Peacekeeper was really an issue? i though it could be handled by Flayer. On the other hand, the opening hand Leyline was really an issue for Dredge players. Reverent Silent or Nature's claim wasnt always guaranteed could resolved in opening hand
by the way. is there any consideration for Underworld Cerberus to protect graveyard?
The guy I was playing had never piloted it before and played an exhume. I brought back Balustrade Spy (because of Serra Avatar in the main) and I am wondering if this has happened to other people. It was nice since there were no dread returns in the yard and I didn't have to really do anything much on my next turn to win. All of my narcomoeba, ichorid, and nether shadow came out to fuel cabal therapy to strip his hand and then dread return the combo on my next turn. I drew the Serra Avatar remembering not to dredge.
On one game I was on draw and discarded a phantasmagorian and on his next turn played a Pithing Needle naming phantasmagorian, but I responded buy using its ability twice before the needle resolved.
One game he aggressively mulliganed to find a Leyline of the Void to prove a point. I conceded.
I'd try to find room for Land Grant and Reverent Silence in your 75.
Land Grant to act as additional copies of Arbor in case its not in your opening hand and you need it, fast. Silence to kill Leylines and RIPs immediately after playing Arbor rather than risk it getting wasted/bolted/swords away before you can cast nature's claim.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"If we don't know what we are doing, the enemy certainly can't anticipate our future actions!"
-Anonymous
Well any Green fetch would also work as a way to search for Arbor. But if your primary way of dredging through your deck is a Griselbrand activation, I think you probably want to minimize your life loss.
I've also seen lists that run a Bayou/Arbor split so that they can cast both halves of Cabal Therapy in addition to the green anti-hate cards. But Bayou is fairly expensive so its not as budget friendly as just Arbors.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"If we don't know what we are doing, the enemy certainly can't anticipate our future actions!"
-Anonymous
Math Time:
You draw 7 times with a Griselbrand activation. Average dredge is 4.5 cards assuming 4 copies of Shell, Thug, Imp, and Troll. That's 31.5 cards. The maximum number of Dredged cards would be 39, minimum 24. You probably will have Dredged between 1-3 times before reanimating Griselbrand which adds between 4.5 and 13.5 additional cards to the graveyard. A deck starts with 53 cards left after drawing your opening 7. You will be left with around 13 cards left in your deck following a Griselbrand activation.
Is that reliable enough to combo off for you?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"If we don't know what we are doing, the enemy certainly can't anticipate our future actions!"
-Anonymous
(If anyone is interested)
@Carysh What's your full list? What would you cut for another Chancellor?
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
4 phantasmagorian
4 balustrade spy
3 chancellor of the annex
2 urza's bauble
2 shmabling shell
4 golgari-grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
4 golgari thug
4 gitaxian probe
4 bridge from below
4 street wraith
4 dread return
4 cabal therapy
4 ichorid
4 nether shadow
4 narcomoeba
1 flayer of the hatebound
3 unmask
2 noxious revival
2 leyline of sanctity
1 ashen rider
1 serra avatar
4 contagion
2 mindbreak trap
EDIT: I've been testing the deck out on Cockatrice and I've gone virtually undefeated
Legacy:
Manaless Dredge http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/phantasmagorian-manaless-dredge/
Goblins http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dont-know-how-to-count-no-more-legacy-goblins/
ad nauseam tendrils http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-04-15-ant-budget/
Modern:
elves http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/elf-pump-30000-dmg-possible/
burn. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-deck-that-made-history/
infect http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/infect-win-2-turns/
I would try to get the dredger count up a bit more but I imagine that you're probably comfortable with the current 14.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Legacy:
Manaless Dredge http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/phantasmagorian-manaless-dredge/
Goblins http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dont-know-how-to-count-no-more-legacy-goblins/
ad nauseam tendrils http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-04-15-ant-budget/
Modern:
elves http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/elf-pump-30000-dmg-possible/
burn. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-deck-that-made-history/
infect http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/infect-win-2-turns/
I have added a "Minutiae" section with stuff like Urza's Bauble vs Mishra's, which shuffle creature to run, and any other similarly fiddly detail which merits consideration in the future.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Any thoughts on it? I originally thought it looked clunky but I'm starting to come around.
ex-Moderator
Legacy love.
One thing to keep in mind is that Cavern of Souls / Aether Vial allows Containment Priest to be uncounterable (technically also Yixlid Jailer and some others)
I think "Fearless" is actually the best positioned to fight Containment Priest or DRS due to the abundance of Sickening Shoal and Contagion effects.
I spent a little time this weekend surveying sideboards, and it looks like there's about 2 hate pieces per sideboard right now, which is actually slightly high for Legacy. Primarily, this is Grafdigger's Cage and Rest in Peace, but it also includes a few Nihil Spellbomb and Relic of Progenitus here and there. Obviously stuff like Extirpate/Surgical Extraction also sees some play but not as much currently and we can play through/around it anyway.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Legacy:
Manaless Dredge http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/phantasmagorian-manaless-dredge/
Goblins http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dont-know-how-to-count-no-more-legacy-goblins/
ad nauseam tendrils http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-04-15-ant-budget/
Modern:
elves http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/elf-pump-30000-dmg-possible/
burn. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-deck-that-made-history/
infect http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/infect-win-2-turns/
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Street Wraith
4 Narcomoeba
4 Balustrade Spy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Greater Mossdog
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
4 Gitaxian Probe
Enchantment (4)
4 Bridge from Below
Artifacts (2)
2 Mishra's Bauble
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Ashen Rider
1 Serra Avatar
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Noxious Revival
1 Sickening Shoal
I might drop the Greater Mossdog MB to put in Serra Avatar MB.
Sickening Shoal pitching Phantasmagorian is pretty much the only way to remove her once she its play.
Surgical Extraction and Faerie Macabre are probably your best options. You can also run Leyline of the Voids if it gets to be a big enough problem.
-Anonymous
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Currently I have
But I'm wondering if a Dryad Arbor with a Ray of Revelation and Ancient Grudge list might be more useful. I'm also quite new to the deck, and have to get in a lot more goldfishing before I actually take it in for a tourney.
Thanks!
edit: Wait, the Arbor would stop the Spy, right? So it would be -4 Spy and some others, then +4 Arbor and anti-hate?
So I'll change the sideboard to
What should be removed when I sideboard for reanimator though...Mishra's Bauble, Serra Avatar, maybe Street Wraith?
I've been goldfishing pretty heavily and I am doing really well on remembering upkeep triggers and not missing the little things. I have not goldfished game 2/3 though.
by the way. is there any consideration for Underworld Cerberus to protect graveyard?
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Also i'd run elvish sprit guide over dryad arbor, although i wouldn't run either.
And what about noxious revival?
Legacy:
Manaless Dredge http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/phantasmagorian-manaless-dredge/
Goblins http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dont-know-how-to-count-no-more-legacy-goblins/
ad nauseam tendrils http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-04-15-ant-budget/
Modern:
elves http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/elf-pump-30000-dmg-possible/
burn. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-deck-that-made-history/
infect http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/infect-win-2-turns/
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9466&d=254274&f=LE
The guy I was playing had never piloted it before and played an exhume. I brought back Balustrade Spy (because of Serra Avatar in the main) and I am wondering if this has happened to other people. It was nice since there were no dread returns in the yard and I didn't have to really do anything much on my next turn to win. All of my narcomoeba, ichorid, and nether shadow came out to fuel cabal therapy to strip his hand and then dread return the combo on my next turn. I drew the Serra Avatar remembering not to dredge.
On another game he kept pulling my balustrade spy out with reanimate or animate dead. He nabbed 2 of them, but eventually he cast exhume and I brought out a flayer of the hatebound and killed him in the upkeep with a couple ichorid and nether shadow.
On one game I was on draw and discarded a phantasmagorian and on his next turn played a Pithing Needle naming phantasmagorian, but I responded buy using its ability twice before the needle resolved.
One game he aggressively mulliganed to find a Leyline of the Void to prove a point. I conceded.
Please let me know if I misplayed any of these.
Thanks
Land Grant to act as additional copies of Arbor in case its not in your opening hand and you need it, fast. Silence to kill Leylines and RIPs immediately after playing Arbor rather than risk it getting wasted/bolted/swords away before you can cast nature's claim.
-Anonymous
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
I've also seen lists that run a Bayou/Arbor split so that they can cast both halves of Cabal Therapy in addition to the green anti-hate cards. But Bayou is fairly expensive so its not as budget friendly as just Arbors.
-Anonymous
however, is it worth to run non manland like Bayou over Arbor? apart from budget aspect
-Anonymous
Legacy:
Manaless Dredge http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/phantasmagorian-manaless-dredge/
Goblins http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dont-know-how-to-count-no-more-legacy-goblins/
ad nauseam tendrils http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-04-15-ant-budget/
Modern:
elves http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/elf-pump-30000-dmg-possible/
burn. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-deck-that-made-history/
infect http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/infect-win-2-turns/
Legacy:
Manaless Dredge http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/phantasmagorian-manaless-dredge/
Goblins http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dont-know-how-to-count-no-more-legacy-goblins/
ad nauseam tendrils http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-04-15-ant-budget/
Modern:
elves http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/elf-pump-30000-dmg-possible/
burn. http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-deck-that-made-history/
infect http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/infect-win-2-turns/
You draw 7 times with a Griselbrand activation. Average dredge is 4.5 cards assuming 4 copies of Shell, Thug, Imp, and Troll. That's 31.5 cards. The maximum number of Dredged cards would be 39, minimum 24. You probably will have Dredged between 1-3 times before reanimating Griselbrand which adds between 4.5 and 13.5 additional cards to the graveyard. A deck starts with 53 cards left after drawing your opening 7. You will be left with around 13 cards left in your deck following a Griselbrand activation.
Is that reliable enough to combo off for you?
-Anonymous