How easy/hard is it to balance cards in hand vs cards in graveyard with the blue counter sideboard plan? Pact of Negation seems playable alongside FoW and Shoal when you don't have a pitch card.
This is wild and probably over indulgent. But awesome and It's the first Worldgorger deck I can get behind.
For me, this is over the top > kinda funny, sure, but extraction is always gonna aim at Dread Return, Bridge or GGT IME.
Adding all these funky cards seems like a strange move to me, if you're effectively missing out on extra speed from stuff like Annex, Probe, Unmask etc.
How easy/hard is it to balance cards in hand vs cards in graveyard with the blue counter sideboard plan? Pact of Negation seems playable alongside FoW and Shoal when you don't have a pitch card.
except for the fact that we are rarely casting the counterspells on the same turn we combo off. More often than not we are attempting to stop a cage or a RIP, and these are usually coming down a turn or two before we can win.
It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.
The reason is fairly simple: It prevents you from decking yourself in the event you Dread ReturnBalustrade Spy and somehow fail to combo kill. It helps in the Miracles match up where you don't really want to combo off and would rather just keep attacking with Ichorids, Nether Shadows, and zombies by making it harder to deck you. It also saves us from Painter's Servant-Grindstone, allowing us to combo off on our next turn.
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I would recommend against including a shuffle creature maindeck, and in most metagames you have to think pretty seriously about putting it in your sideboard as well.
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I would recommend against including a shuffle creature maindeck, and in most metagames you have to think pretty seriously about putting it in your sideboard as well.
Agreed. Space in the main is fairly tight as it is, it just feels like an inclusion for people not quite wanting to run the "all-in/fearless" strategy and just go for it. If you're opting to win through Ichorid/Zombie beats then there's no sense in dumping your deck to where it would matter anyways.
As for running it in the board, I can see it at least as a more viable option there, even if I honestly wouldn't myself. I rather focus on stopping discard, storm, targeted yard hate, or removing things that can shut down the deck like Norn or even Deathrite if I don't have Phantasmagorian or Street Wraith available to me.
I have worldspine wurm as my shuffler. I bring it in against Painter, hard control decks like Miracles, and Show and Tell, because I love when someone cast Show and Tell and I put a 15/15 into play that if it dies I get 15 more power in tokens.
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I believe he meant running gris as sideboard hate for show and tell. gris is useful vs show and is a reanimation target to mill yourself. worldspire is a hate against show and a way to prevnt yourself from milling.
It's a dangerous business, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.
I'm a little surprised I lost to MUD since my friend plays it and we test the match-up so often. It's generally favored something like 60:40 just because their first few turns they set up Chalice of the Void and/or Trinisphere, which is fine because it makes us go on the Zombie beatdown, and then it takes them another turn or two to get out the 8/8 where their life total can't change. They were really enjoyable games even with the loss. Otherwise, a fine day of Magicing.
I did try some new sideboarding. Elves the Chancellor of the Annex seemed really bad if I didn't hit it turn one, so I actually took out 2 Chancellor and 2 Gitaxian Probe for 4 Mindbreak Trap. It doesn't stop Natural Order into Craterhoof, but it essentially renders their Glimpse of Nature useless unless they use it as a green Ancestral Recall. I have tested against Elves dozens of times but this was my first time trying this. Not sure if I'm sold on the idea since usually their gameplan these days is to either t1 Deathrite Shaman or t3-4 N.O. into Craterhoof.
I also put in 4 Ashen Rider against MUD. All day I was having terrible dredges (proof I need to shuffle more) and was generally winning with beatdowns and even reanimated Chancellor of the Annex twice. Figured if I'm not hitting Spy all day I might as well try 4 Ashen Rider (over Chancellor) against MUD. It doesn't work well if they can get a Lodestone Golem or Trinisphere in quickly, but if a miracle happened, I figured blowing up a Voltaic Key or Grim Monolith early might help. Contagion seemed sick in this match-up too to kill an early Metalworker.
(Griselbrand) Sure you get to draw 7 cards, but thats it.
Sure you get to DREDGE 7 TIMES AT INSTANT SPEED so now my graveyard is full, and I win if I survive until my next attack phase.
I fixed your statement for you.
I'm not being a troll, I know you meant relative to a Spy-list;
Most Non-Spy versions of Manaless usually use Griselbrand as a 3-of, with a Flayer of the Hatebound (think Dread Return > GGT)
Personally, I'm kinda surprised more Spy-Manaless lists don't use Spy with a single Griselbrand as an out to extraction.
Any of you Spy fellaz try this?
Here's my tournament report from the PIQ in Los Angeles this weekend. I went 3-0-5 as compared to a tie record last year in the SCGLA Open.
Match 1: Loss 0-2 vs. Death and Taxes
Game 1: On the draw, opponent plays a T2 Thalia. I continue on trying to get something going from my upkeep creatures, but get pounded quickly before I can create a presence.
Game 2: On the draw, turn 1 cage.
Match 2: Loss 1-2 vs. Food Chain
Game 1: Off the draw, a hand full of dredge accelerators (wraith and probe) earn me the quick win vs my unwitting opponent.
Game 2: My aforementioned unwitting opponent, whom I failed to mention was also late for the tournament, was approached by a judge and subjected to a deck check on the suspicion that something was wrong with his decklist. The check did in fact reveal that he had failed to include two cards currently in his deck. He was issued a game loss and we continued to game 3.
Game 3: On the draw, turn 1 cage. Groundhog day begins.
Match 3: Win 2-0 vs. Scapeshift
Game 1: Off the draw (I was lucky to have lost so many die-rolls up to this point), I come out with phantasmagorian, dumping my hand at the end of his turn and proceeding to shred his hand with cabal therapies. After I've cleared the way I proceed to combo off for the win.
Game 2: Almost identical to the first. I found a slaughter games in his hand on this one, naughty boy! Cabal therapy is good medicine for that. Win w/ combo.
Match 4: Loss 1-2 vs. Reanimator
Game 1: Phantasmagorian, a couple dredgers and some wraiths are all I need for a quick combo kill. He tries to reanimate a grislebrand (wrong move), and doesn't seem to figure out in time what's going on.
Game 2: I side in Leyline of the Void, which I packed for the mirror matchup; and I consider reanimator the broken-est of mirrors. Mull to 6 to find it, which I do, and drop it down T0 with me on the draw. Opponent groans while I chortle loudly. Lucky for him, he has two mana in hand and by turn two manages to reanimate my Flayer, punching me with it over and over, then reanimates my street wraith, punching me with that too. Sneaky bastard. I die.
Game 3: After thinking it over a bit I keep in the leylines, hoping to get one in my opening hand. I don't. I don't get really anything good in my opening hand but decide to keep so as to race him for the kill. This was probably a questionable decision in hindsight, to keep the Leylines in, as I think Chancellor was strong here, or even Noxious. So back at the ranch, no dredger, mind you, I draw T1... and it's a narcomoeba. Cursed jellyfish! I keep drawing into nothing and am finally forced to discard creatures, which he proceeds to slap me with while he's reanimating his Iona (naming black) for a nice soft lock, then beats me to death with mostly my own stuff... just to prove a point.
Match 5: Loss 1-2 vs. Burn
Game 1: Burn is too slow to keep up with dredge, and is arguably one of my best matchups. I handily destroy him T3 with a little burn of my own from Flayer of the Hatebound.
Game 2: T1 Cage. Oh well, he won't find it Game 3.
Game 3: T1 Cage. I ask him after how many he was playing in his sideboard and he answers 4... you've got to be joking.
Match 6: Win 2-0 vs A pile of crap.
Game 1: 3 street wraiths in my opener with a dredger to discard. I easily T2 combo to beat my opponent who up to this point has revealed a hand of duress, dig thought time, brainstorm, and a phyrexian dreadnought. Ok... I'm amused.
Game 2: A little slower this time, and my opponent gets a chance to land a 9/9 death's shadow.. Cool. I proceed to hit him with the beats (ichorid) after he extirpates my nether shadows. I turn my creatures sideways for what should've been lethal on T6 and extend my hand, but instead of shaking it he casts Angel's Grace and I'm flabbergasted. Um, ok. I'll just kill you next turn. Who told you this was a deck?
Match 7: Win 2-0 vs. UB Delver
Game 1: My opponent, as usual, is unprepared to handle a quick comboing off. Although I can tell he is taking note of my deck and my plays for Game 2. I notice him complaining that his deck is outdated and that he is only playing it because his friend borrowed his American Delver deck.
Game 2: This game was much harder but I was able to defeat him with a combination of therapy-ing his hand and attacking around an unflipped delver. I am brought down to 6 life before winning with the creature plan. A close win.
Match 8: Loss 0-2 vs. Elves
Game 1: Playing for a tie-record, I go into this round optimistically but am soon crushed by the sheer speed of elves. Turn 2 Craterhoof gets me. I know my deck is fast, but elves is faster and is one of my weakest matchups. I'm not hopeful for game 2.
Game 2: Almost identical.
It's not enough that cage is in nearly 40% of sideboards, most often as a two-of, but now we have containment priest to contend with, which is right there main deck in Death and Taxes. Opponents have demonstrated that they are willing to mulligan insanely aggressively to get their hate by going down to just a few cards in hand (although oddly not one of my opponents ever ONCE put me on the play after I beat them. Go figure.) I suspect that graveyard hate is still especially high as we leave the Treasure Cruise epoch. Based on my considerable experience and research, to anyone considering picking up this deck for tournament play, I'd offer the following advice: Unless you are totally broke and just don't like Burn (cheaper), don't do it. This deck is not well positioned for the meta at this time for multiple reasons. 1. It used to be a novel deck and you could get the jump on an unwary Tier-1 player, no longer is that the case. The jig is up. Everybody sees it coming and knows exactly how to play around you post-board. 2. Wizards has also consistently made clear that they dislike Dredge and will continuously release very cheap and relevant cards that read: "Die dredge, die." This may change in the future, we can only wait and see.
Around here no one runs hate since literally no one but me plays dredge. Isn't the point of the green SB package so you don't lose to hate like that? Could be something to look at, or the blue one with FoWs.
Hey, Bacon, I was the Elves player that you faced Match 8. Sorry about the stomping, but you're right that Elves has an excellent matchup against Dredge G1, and that with the inclusion of Containment Priest and loss of Treasure Cruise, Dredge will be on the receiving end of a lot of pain for quite a while.
Hey, Bacon, I was the Elves player that you faced Match 8. Sorry about the stomping, but you're right that Elves has an excellent matchup against Dredge G1, and that with the inclusion of Containment Priest and loss of Treasure Cruise, Dredge will be on the receiving end of a lot of pain for quite a while.
Thanks for reading my report! I really enjoyed your deck!
Around here no one runs hate since literally no one but me plays dredge. Isn't the point of the green SB package so you don't lose to hate like that? Could be something to look at, or the blue one with FoWs.
I think that the transformational sideboard is not so great. Before I did that I would just board in 4x unmask naming cage. But again, that sets you back. The idea is that this deck, as has been mentioned a multitude of times, is either hit or miss. Great in low-hate metas, extremely bad in high-hate metas. It's fine though. Since the latter just happens to be the case in my area, I will put the deck in my safe and play something else for a while.
Around here no one runs hate since literally no one but me plays dredge. Isn't the point of the green SB package so you don't lose to hate like that? Could be something to look at, or the blue one with FoWs.
I think that the transformational sideboard is not so great. Before I did that I would just board in 4x unmask naming cage. But again, that sets you back. The idea is that this deck, as has been mentioned a multitude of times, is either hit or miss. Great in low-hate metas, extremely bad in high-hate metas. It's fine though. Since the latter just happens to be the case in my area, I will put the deck in my safe and play something else for a while.
I tend to agree, although;
I played the green-side for well over a year, and yes, it can grind games out past hate and win, if you get a degree of luck go your way.
The blue-side I played exclusively for over 6 months until I got bored of it > it's effective, I would argue more resilient than the green side (although more expensive!) especially considering it's possible to include the FOW's in your main, so it's entirely possible to counter that Lightning Bolt, Scavenging Ooze etc.
Of all the manaless builds, I prefer the blue one for two reasons > I think it's the best of the lot against hate, and I think because so much of the blue is already in the main you actually have a fair bit more room in the side than the green plan, giving the side flexibility.
All that said, Manaless isn't reliable in a tournament sense > it's the very definition of a glass cannon, and in my experience I would say if you didn't win game-1, you may as well concede after that.
Around here no one runs hate since literally no one but me plays dredge. Isn't the point of the green SB package so you don't lose to hate like that? Could be something to look at, or the blue one with FoWs.
I think that the transformational sideboard is not so great. Before I did that I would just board in 4x unmask naming cage. But again, that sets you back. The idea is that this deck, as has been mentioned a multitude of times, is either hit or miss. Great in low-hate metas, extremely bad in high-hate metas. It's fine though. Since the latter just happens to be the case in my area, I will put the deck in my safe and play something else for a while.
I tend to agree, although;
I played the green-side for well over a year, and yes, it can grind games out past hate and win, if you get a degree of luck go your way.
The blue-side I played exclusively for over 6 months until I got bored of it > it's effective, I would argue more resilient than the green side (although more expensive!) especially considering it's possible to include the FOW's in your main, so it's entirely possible to counter that Lightning Bolt, Scavenging Ooze etc.
Of all the manaless builds, I prefer the blue one for two reasons > I think it's the best of the lot against hate, and I think because so much of the blue is already in the main you actually have a fair bit more room in the side than the green plan, giving the side flexibility.
All that said, Manaless isn't reliable in a tournament sense > it's the very definition of a glass cannon, and in my experience I would say if you didn't win game-1, you may as well concede after that.
Pragmatically speaking, I think I'd go with the blue board as well. Seems resilient and I like the interaction between Disrupting Shoal and Gitaxian probe to counter cage (our nemesis, or at least mine.)
So imagine a given % of opponents have meaningful graveyard hate.
From 0% to X% you're best off going Fearless because there just isn't enough hate to mess with your main-deck plan.
From Y% to 100% you're best off with another deck or a true transformational sideboard. There's too much hate to fight through it reliably.
If X < Y there's a range where it actually makes sense to play the blue or green sideboard. I personally believe this range (if it exists) is rather small. This makes it a tough bet to bring the blue/green antihate plan as a little bit of mis-prediction on your part would indicate a favorable swap to fearless, transform, or not playing manaless dredge at all.
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...This makes it a tough bet to bring the blue/green antihate plan as a little bit of mis-prediction on your part would indicate a favorable swap to fearless, transform, or not playing manaless dredge at all.
LOL, you gave me quite a chuckle!
Yeah I tend to agree > like you, if hate is big time nasty, I'd play something else. If you have no, to seldom-hate, then Manaless might work well.
Assuming Manaless can play thru focussed, dedicated hate is a masochists' idea of fun.
I've had a pretty sweet roll streamrolling with Manaless the last few months at the locals, but we all have our bad luck. Played a 5-rounder in a out-of-town event. Started off real strong and just dropped the ball when it mattered. Oh well, I wasn't bitter, it was a great learning experience.
2-0 Reanimator
2-0 Death + Taxes
1-2 Death + Taxes
0-2 U.B. Tezzeret
1-2 Punishing Nic Fit
It was 18 or 19 players, I think? Had it been 4 rounds I could of just double-drew into top 8, but I couldn't lock up any of the last games rounds 3-5. Tezzeret is just an awful match-up as is with maindeck Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage, and they can literally just sideboard into 6-9 more cards that wreck us. Death and Taxes in general is a favorable match-up, and the losses were fair. Game 3 I couldn't combo (Thalia) so I had to zombie beat-down, and I was only making incremental gains between the Germ token having Batterskull AND Jitte on it. Swing for 10, they gain 8, swing for 15, they gain 8, swing for 17, they gain 8... The Sword of Fire and Ice finally did it in. I put her to 4 but between the Mom giving black-protection from Nether Shadows and Zombie tokens, the Sword gave pro-blue so the 1 Narcomoeba I was holding back couldn't hold off the onslaught. They were fantastic games, and I was not mad because it reminded me how much I love legacy. Punishing Nic Fit seemed like a good match-up, but they just dedicate their entire sideboard to combo decks so it was pretty intense, grindy games. I had probably the sweetest non-combo hand I could ever ask for game one by attacking for 11 and having 20 power on board turn 3 before he scooped.
It was fun though. For smaller events I like Noxious Revival. In smaller events people who don't play legacy often are prone to running lesser seen cards like Extirpate. I found out the hard way when I was in the combo, in response to the Dread Return on Flayer he extracted it. I guess Serra Avatar would of solved this problem but it just wasn't a card I had thought to bring in this matchup/situation, so giving us another drawstep to bring back 8 creatures with haste would of been nice. Revival would of also trumped his Volrath's Stronghold when it would be crucial.
For smaller events I like Noxious Revival. In smaller events people who don't play legacy often are prone to running lesser seen cards like Extirpate. I found out the hard way when I was in the combo, in response to the Dread Return on Flayer he extracted it. I guess Serra Avatar would of solved this problem but it just wasn't a card I had thought to bring in this matchup/situation, so giving us another drawstep to bring back 8 creatures with haste would of been nice.
I'm guessing you had burned through a Dread Return earlier, preventing the Golgari Thug into kill Thug line?
Golgari Thug says more than Dredge 4? THIS IS WYLD.
Maybe I should play with my English ones and not German... I have Stinkweed Imp and GGT memorized, but I didn't even think about Thug. Haha, oh Magic. I've played the deck for a 1+ year, and never came across this situation. Even when they manage to Stifle triggers, I am ready to remember the untap, upkeep Ichorid + Nether Shadow triggers on Flayer before I fail to draw. I went through my deck several times trying to figure out an out before shaking hand. But hey, good lessons to learn at tournaments like this and not IQ's, GP's, and Opens. Thanks mate!
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Legacy love.
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Cabal Therapy shreds hands before going for it.
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
For me, this is over the top > kinda funny, sure, but extraction is always gonna aim at Dread Return, Bridge or GGT IME.
Adding all these funky cards seems like a strange move to me, if you're effectively missing out on extra speed from stuff like Annex, Probe, Unmask etc.
except for the fact that we are rarely casting the counterspells on the same turn we combo off. More often than not we are attempting to stop a cage or a RIP, and these are usually coming down a turn or two before we can win.
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Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Agreed. Space in the main is fairly tight as it is, it just feels like an inclusion for people not quite wanting to run the "all-in/fearless" strategy and just go for it. If you're opting to win through Ichorid/Zombie beats then there's no sense in dumping your deck to where it would matter anyways.
As for running it in the board, I can see it at least as a more viable option there, even if I honestly wouldn't myself. I rather focus on stopping discard, storm, targeted yard hate, or removing things that can shut down the deck like Norn or even Deathrite if I don't have Phantasmagorian or Street Wraith available to me.
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2-0 UB Delver/Tempo
2-1 Elves
2-0 Burn
0-2 MUD
3-1
I'm a little surprised I lost to MUD since my friend plays it and we test the match-up so often. It's generally favored something like 60:40 just because their first few turns they set up Chalice of the Void and/or Trinisphere, which is fine because it makes us go on the Zombie beatdown, and then it takes them another turn or two to get out the 8/8 where their life total can't change. They were really enjoyable games even with the loss. Otherwise, a fine day of Magicing.
I did try some new sideboarding. Elves the Chancellor of the Annex seemed really bad if I didn't hit it turn one, so I actually took out 2 Chancellor and 2 Gitaxian Probe for 4 Mindbreak Trap. It doesn't stop Natural Order into Craterhoof, but it essentially renders their Glimpse of Nature useless unless they use it as a green Ancestral Recall. I have tested against Elves dozens of times but this was my first time trying this. Not sure if I'm sold on the idea since usually their gameplan these days is to either t1 Deathrite Shaman or t3-4 N.O. into Craterhoof.
I also put in 4 Ashen Rider against MUD. All day I was having terrible dredges (proof I need to shuffle more) and was generally winning with beatdowns and even reanimated Chancellor of the Annex twice. Figured if I'm not hitting Spy all day I might as well try 4 Ashen Rider (over Chancellor) against MUD. It doesn't work well if they can get a Lodestone Golem or Trinisphere in quickly, but if a miracle happened, I figured blowing up a Voltaic Key or Grim Monolith early might help. Contagion seemed sick in this match-up too to kill an early Metalworker.
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Legacy love.
Sure you get to DREDGE 7 TIMES AT INSTANT SPEED so now my graveyard is full, and I win if I survive until my next attack phase.
I fixed your statement for you.
I'm not being a troll, I know you meant relative to a Spy-list;
Most Non-Spy versions of Manaless usually use Griselbrand as a 3-of, with a Flayer of the Hatebound (think Dread Return > GGT)
Personally, I'm kinda surprised more Spy-Manaless lists don't use Spy with a single Griselbrand as an out to extraction.
Any of you Spy fellaz try this?
4x Golgari Thug
3x Shambling Shell
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Balustrade Spy
1x Flayer of the Hatebound
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomeba
4x Nether Shadow
4x Phantasmagorian
4x Street Wraith
4x Chancellor of the Annex
4x Bridge from Below
Sorceries (12)
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Dread Return
4x Mindbreak Trap
4x Noxious Revival
4x Surgical Extraction
2x Mishra's Bauble
1x Flame-kin Zealot
Here's my tournament report from the PIQ in Los Angeles this weekend. I went 3-0-5 as compared to a tie record last year in the SCGLA Open.
Match 1: Loss 0-2 vs. Death and Taxes
Game 1: On the draw, opponent plays a T2 Thalia. I continue on trying to get something going from my upkeep creatures, but get pounded quickly before I can create a presence.
Game 2: On the draw, turn 1 cage.
Match 2: Loss 1-2 vs. Food Chain
Game 1: Off the draw, a hand full of dredge accelerators (wraith and probe) earn me the quick win vs my unwitting opponent.
Game 2: My aforementioned unwitting opponent, whom I failed to mention was also late for the tournament, was approached by a judge and subjected to a deck check on the suspicion that something was wrong with his decklist. The check did in fact reveal that he had failed to include two cards currently in his deck. He was issued a game loss and we continued to game 3.
Game 3: On the draw, turn 1 cage. Groundhog day begins.
Match 3: Win 2-0 vs. Scapeshift
Game 1: Off the draw (I was lucky to have lost so many die-rolls up to this point), I come out with phantasmagorian, dumping my hand at the end of his turn and proceeding to shred his hand with cabal therapies. After I've cleared the way I proceed to combo off for the win.
Game 2: Almost identical to the first. I found a slaughter games in his hand on this one, naughty boy! Cabal therapy is good medicine for that. Win w/ combo.
Match 4: Loss 1-2 vs. Reanimator
Game 1: Phantasmagorian, a couple dredgers and some wraiths are all I need for a quick combo kill. He tries to reanimate a grislebrand (wrong move), and doesn't seem to figure out in time what's going on.
Game 2: I side in Leyline of the Void, which I packed for the mirror matchup; and I consider reanimator the broken-est of mirrors. Mull to 6 to find it, which I do, and drop it down T0 with me on the draw. Opponent groans while I chortle loudly. Lucky for him, he has two mana in hand and by turn two manages to reanimate my Flayer, punching me with it over and over, then reanimates my street wraith, punching me with that too. Sneaky bastard. I die.
Game 3: After thinking it over a bit I keep in the leylines, hoping to get one in my opening hand. I don't. I don't get really anything good in my opening hand but decide to keep so as to race him for the kill. This was probably a questionable decision in hindsight, to keep the Leylines in, as I think Chancellor was strong here, or even Noxious. So back at the ranch, no dredger, mind you, I draw T1... and it's a narcomoeba. Cursed jellyfish! I keep drawing into nothing and am finally forced to discard creatures, which he proceeds to slap me with while he's reanimating his Iona (naming black) for a nice soft lock, then beats me to death with mostly my own stuff... just to prove a point.
Match 5: Loss 1-2 vs. Burn
Game 1: Burn is too slow to keep up with dredge, and is arguably one of my best matchups. I handily destroy him T3 with a little burn of my own from Flayer of the Hatebound.
Game 2: T1 Cage. Oh well, he won't find it Game 3.
Game 3: T1 Cage. I ask him after how many he was playing in his sideboard and he answers 4... you've got to be joking.
Match 6: Win 2-0 vs A pile of crap.
Game 1: 3 street wraiths in my opener with a dredger to discard. I easily T2 combo to beat my opponent who up to this point has revealed a hand of duress, dig thought time, brainstorm, and a phyrexian dreadnought. Ok... I'm amused.
Game 2: A little slower this time, and my opponent gets a chance to land a 9/9 death's shadow.. Cool. I proceed to hit him with the beats (ichorid) after he extirpates my nether shadows. I turn my creatures sideways for what should've been lethal on T6 and extend my hand, but instead of shaking it he casts Angel's Grace and I'm flabbergasted. Um, ok. I'll just kill you next turn. Who told you this was a deck?
Match 7: Win 2-0 vs. UB Delver
Game 1: My opponent, as usual, is unprepared to handle a quick comboing off. Although I can tell he is taking note of my deck and my plays for Game 2. I notice him complaining that his deck is outdated and that he is only playing it because his friend borrowed his American Delver deck.
Game 2: This game was much harder but I was able to defeat him with a combination of therapy-ing his hand and attacking around an unflipped delver. I am brought down to 6 life before winning with the creature plan. A close win.
Match 8: Loss 0-2 vs. Elves
Game 1: Playing for a tie-record, I go into this round optimistically but am soon crushed by the sheer speed of elves. Turn 2 Craterhoof gets me. I know my deck is fast, but elves is faster and is one of my weakest matchups. I'm not hopeful for game 2.
Game 2: Almost identical.
It's not enough that cage is in nearly 40% of sideboards, most often as a two-of, but now we have containment priest to contend with, which is right there main deck in Death and Taxes. Opponents have demonstrated that they are willing to mulligan insanely aggressively to get their hate by going down to just a few cards in hand (although oddly not one of my opponents ever ONCE put me on the play after I beat them. Go figure.) I suspect that graveyard hate is still especially high as we leave the Treasure Cruise epoch. Based on my considerable experience and research, to anyone considering picking up this deck for tournament play, I'd offer the following advice: Unless you are totally broke and just don't like Burn (cheaper), don't do it. This deck is not well positioned for the meta at this time for multiple reasons. 1. It used to be a novel deck and you could get the jump on an unwary Tier-1 player, no longer is that the case. The jig is up. Everybody sees it coming and knows exactly how to play around you post-board. 2. Wizards has also consistently made clear that they dislike Dredge and will continuously release very cheap and relevant cards that read: "Die dredge, die." This may change in the future, we can only wait and see.
Thanks for reading my report! I really enjoyed your deck!
I tend to agree, although;
I played the green-side for well over a year, and yes, it can grind games out past hate and win, if you get a degree of luck go your way.
The blue-side I played exclusively for over 6 months until I got bored of it > it's effective, I would argue more resilient than the green side (although more expensive!) especially considering it's possible to include the FOW's in your main, so it's entirely possible to counter that Lightning Bolt, Scavenging Ooze etc.
Of all the manaless builds, I prefer the blue one for two reasons > I think it's the best of the lot against hate, and I think because so much of the blue is already in the main you actually have a fair bit more room in the side than the green plan, giving the side flexibility.
All that said, Manaless isn't reliable in a tournament sense > it's the very definition of a glass cannon, and in my experience I would say if you didn't win game-1, you may as well concede after that.
Pragmatically speaking, I think I'd go with the blue board as well. Seems resilient and I like the interaction between Disrupting Shoal and Gitaxian probe to counter cage (our nemesis, or at least mine.)
From 0% to X% you're best off going Fearless because there just isn't enough hate to mess with your main-deck plan.
From Y% to 100% you're best off with another deck or a true transformational sideboard. There's too much hate to fight through it reliably.
If X < Y there's a range where it actually makes sense to play the blue or green sideboard. I personally believe this range (if it exists) is rather small. This makes it a tough bet to bring the blue/green antihate plan as a little bit of mis-prediction on your part would indicate a favorable swap to fearless, transform, or not playing manaless dredge at all.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
LOL, you gave me quite a chuckle!
Yeah I tend to agree > like you, if hate is big time nasty, I'd play something else. If you have no, to seldom-hate, then Manaless might work well.
Assuming Manaless can play thru focussed, dedicated hate is a masochists' idea of fun.
2-0 Reanimator
2-0 Death + Taxes
1-2 Death + Taxes
0-2 U.B. Tezzeret
1-2 Punishing Nic Fit
It was 18 or 19 players, I think? Had it been 4 rounds I could of just double-drew into top 8, but I couldn't lock up any of the last games rounds 3-5. Tezzeret is just an awful match-up as is with maindeck Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage, and they can literally just sideboard into 6-9 more cards that wreck us. Death and Taxes in general is a favorable match-up, and the losses were fair. Game 3 I couldn't combo (Thalia) so I had to zombie beat-down, and I was only making incremental gains between the Germ token having Batterskull AND Jitte on it. Swing for 10, they gain 8, swing for 15, they gain 8, swing for 17, they gain 8... The Sword of Fire and Ice finally did it in. I put her to 4 but between the Mom giving black-protection from Nether Shadows and Zombie tokens, the Sword gave pro-blue so the 1 Narcomoeba I was holding back couldn't hold off the onslaught. They were fantastic games, and I was not mad because it reminded me how much I love legacy. Punishing Nic Fit seemed like a good match-up, but they just dedicate their entire sideboard to combo decks so it was pretty intense, grindy games. I had probably the sweetest non-combo hand I could ever ask for game one by attacking for 11 and having 20 power on board turn 3 before he scooped.
It was fun though. For smaller events I like Noxious Revival. In smaller events people who don't play legacy often are prone to running lesser seen cards like Extirpate. I found out the hard way when I was in the combo, in response to the Dread Return on Flayer he extracted it. I guess Serra Avatar would of solved this problem but it just wasn't a card I had thought to bring in this matchup/situation, so giving us another drawstep to bring back 8 creatures with haste would of been nice. Revival would of also trumped his Volrath's Stronghold when it would be crucial.
Lessons learned. Good times.
ex-Moderator
Legacy love.
I'm guessing you had burned through a Dread Return earlier, preventing the Golgari Thug into kill Thug line?
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Maybe I should play with my English ones and not German... I have Stinkweed Imp and GGT memorized, but I didn't even think about Thug. Haha, oh Magic. I've played the deck for a 1+ year, and never came across this situation. Even when they manage to Stifle triggers, I am ready to remember the untap, upkeep Ichorid + Nether Shadow triggers on Flayer before I fail to draw. I went through my deck several times trying to figure out an out before shaking hand. But hey, good lessons to learn at tournaments like this and not IQ's, GP's, and Opens. Thanks mate!
ex-Moderator
Legacy love.