Tin Fins Griselbrand Combo

  • #1
    This deck is certainly making some waves at SCG opens, and is responsible for Shallow Grave spiking from $3 to $40 in the past month or so. I'm surprised there is no thread for it on here, though the thread on The Source has a good 23 pages as of the time of posting this.

    So, the original list posted by RichardCheese on the source.
    Cutting straight to the chase:

    Blue_Meanie's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    4 Polluted Delta
    2 Misty Rainforest
    1 Marsh Flats
    4 Underground Sea
    2 Island
    2 Swamp

    4 Lotus Petal
    3 Chrome Mox
    4 Dark Ritual

    4 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Careful Study
    4 Force of Will

    4 Entomb
    4 Goryo's Vengeance
    3 Shallow Grave
    4 Griselbrand

    3 Tendrils of Agony




    Yeah it's another Griselbrand deck. I know there's already Reanimator and Count Chocula and GriselbrandReanimator, so on and so forth. There are similarities here with all of them, but I think the kill condition/sideboard plan are different enough to warrant a separate thread, but if the mods feel otherwise, feel free to kill this off.


    Origin Story:
    First things first: the name:
    Grislebrand = Grizzlebees = TinFins. If you don't get it, I can't help you. The first iteration was basically ANT, based on Antonius' idea of running a singleton Goryo's Vengeance to make LED/Grizzle/IT a win con. Too fragile and too slow. TinFins 2 was that, but with almost all the protection replaced by more filter spells. More consistent, but more all in on that one win-con, with some really clunky draws...still a 3-card combo. Enter TinFins 3. Closer to Reanimator but with a combo finish, and the ability to shed all graveyard dependence post-board.


    Reason to Play:
    Card Choices
    Everything is pretty self explanatory. Still up for debate are the exact numbers of Moxen, Forces, and Tendrils.

    How is it any good?
    -Needs very little mana to go off. Ritual, Entomb, Vengeance is perfectly doable.

    -Low storm requirement. If Grizz connects, you need 7 storm, so far has never been a problem.

    -Does not have to over commit. Having to crack LED to make your tutor work forces your hand. You can't always go off with protection, and sometimes they just topdeck a counter. Here, you can go off without committing your entire hand, which can be huge.

    -Redundancy. 8 ways to get Grizz in the yard (plus just draw, discard, go) and 7 reanimation effects. Helps make up for the lack of protection by letting you attempt to go off multiple times and overwhelm control decks.

    -Transormative sideboard. Maybe it's not the right way to go, I'm not really a combo guy or anything, but it's been working alright in testing so far. The idea though, was that everyone and their brother is either running Grafdigger's Cage or Surgical Extraction, both of which are pretty bad for this deck. Rather than board in a bunch of anti-hate to water down the main strategy, I say board the whole thing out. If it goes to game 3, shuffle the entire board in again, and let them try to guess what strategy to fight, and see how many dead cards they get stuck with. Duressing someone game 2 to see Swords to Plowshares and Surgical Extraction feels pretty good. "Become the ruling body".

    But isn't it bad?
    Yeah maybe. It runs less protection than most combo decks, and I'm not even sure that Force over Duress is the way to go, considering the blue count. Targeted discard is nice, but requires extra mana that the deck usually doesn't have. Again, redundancy makes fighting through counters a little easier, and Force becomes much better once Grizzlebee's actually hits play, as it allows him to protect himself in a way discard really can't.

    It also feels like it needs more Rituals, as there can be games where you draw 21 cards on turn 1 and have Tendrils in hand but can't cast it. On the plus side, most of the time you're going to be perfectly set up to win on the next turn.

    The whole sideboard thing is also just experimental at this point, and could be totally wrong. If nothing else it's pretty funny. Other options are boarding into a more full-fledged Reanimator list, Show and Tell, or just a bunch of protection.

    Why not just play ______?
    -Reanimator: Faster, by a lot, does not really care about Karakas. It can also trick opponents into boarding into a lot of dead cards like Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, graveyard hate, Pithing Needle, and leaving in Swords.

    -ANT: Nothing super compelling. Still fairly dependent on life total, still a bit soft to multiple hard counters. On the upside, going off with no mana floating is easier because of Chrome Mox, and you can play around hatebears like Thalia and Teeg in game 1 by just swinging with a hasty Grizzlebee, then drawing just enough to set yourself up to do it next turn, rinse, repeat.

    -TES: Same as above, but even less protection. Main advantage here is the manabase.

    -Sneak/Show: Not on everyone's radar, no chance of your own Show and Tell backfiring on you by dropping Ensnaring Bridge, Humility, Gilded Drake, et. al. Also feels more consistent/faster, but no numbers to back that up so don't take it as the gospel truth. Also you can drop Grizzle off their SnT to Legend rule him, then just get yours back on your turn. Stop hitting yourself!


    Among the 23 pages of discussion and development, Children of Korlis has been discovered as an insane way to draw 14-28 more cards each, and it has been pretty much established that an anti-hate board is better than many of the transformational options such as ANT or Show and Tell.

    All credit goes to RichardCheese on The Source for the Original post, and .dk and Phazonmu[t]ant for major contributions and lots of testing.

    This deck is super nutty, I would not be surprised if Griselbrand got Griselbanned in the very near future.


    AS PER REQUEST: The name comes from Season 2, Episode 19 of Sealab 2021
    The crew of Sealab (along with a vapid gossip-show host, a bear in lederhosen and guest stars Kid 'n Play) star in a sneak preview special for the movie Tinfins, complete with plenty of ads for the restaurant Grizzlebee's: "You'll wish you had less fun."
    Last edited by Blue_Meanie: 3/5/2013 9:24:17 PM
  • #2
    Reanimator
    Jacob Kory
    8th Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 3/3/2013


    AMIODARONE's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Creatures (5)
    2 Children of Korlis
    1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    2 Griselbrand

    Lands (13)
    1 Swamp
    4 Marsh Flats
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Scrubland
    1 Tundra
    2 Underground Sea

    Spells (42)
    2 Chrome Mox
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Entomb
    3 Goryo's Vengeance
    4 Shallow Grave
    1 Silence
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Gitaxian Probe
    4 Ponder
    1 Reanimate
    1 Tendrils of Agony
    2 Thoughtseize

    PARAMEDIC/FIREFIGHTER
    YUMA, AZ
    I started in SAGA and quit at kamigawa... just came back in nov,2010
  • #3
    please don't duplicate threads.

    tin-fin vs traditional reanimator
    http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=492227

    traditional reanimator
    http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=370757
    La Roux 'In For The Kill'~~~♪

    The stupid grin that seems to be the human body’s natural reaction to BEING ABSOLUTELY AMAZING....
  • #4
    I don't think we've ever had a Developing thread solely devoted to Tin Fins as a deck, though. twndomn, your post sounds like referring to an "OmniTell vs. Sneak Show" thread and a "Sneak Show" thread as arguments for not having a separate OmniTell thread--like OmniTell and Sneak Show, Tin Fins and Reanimator are sufficiently different to deserve their own threads.
  • #5
    I think that a more valid comparison when it comes to whether or not this deck is sufficiently different from an existing deck would be TinFins vs. The Spanish Inquisition because all are basically absurd dig power at the cost of almost all life to Storm out T1.

    Speaking of T1 kills, is there a T1 kill statistic on this deck yet?

    Sidenote: if TinFins is named after what Google told me it's named after, TinFins vs. the Spanish Inquisition would make a great sequel.
    "... Where is there most truth? The one prays in truth to God though he worships an idol; the other prays falsely to the true God, and hence worships in fact an idol." --Søren Kierkegaard (trans. David F. Swenson)
    Quote from Raggedjoe
    So I play tested this last night. It was... Weird. I felt like I was just playing a pile of terrible cards, but I kept winning.

    My reaction to Storm

    Legacy: 12-Post
    EDH:Teneb, the Land Harvester
    5CC P.P.C.
  • #6
    Does anyone feel this deck could lead to the re-banning of Entomb?
  • #7
    Quote from taker324
    Does anyone feel this deck could lead to the re-banning of Entomb?


    No. If anything, it'd knock Griselbrand out of another format because with this Griselbrand has officially morphed three archetypes (Reanimator, Show and Tell, and now Storm). And of those archetypes, Sneak and Show is now the Deck to Beat because Griselbrand makes finding Emrakul easier, Reanimator is fine as far as I know, and there are not enough results on this deck yet to make claims about it.
    Last edited by Mockingbird: 3/4/2013 8:36:54 AM
    "... Where is there most truth? The one prays in truth to God though he worships an idol; the other prays falsely to the true God, and hence worships in fact an idol." --Søren Kierkegaard (trans. David F. Swenson)
    Quote from Raggedjoe
    So I play tested this last night. It was... Weird. I felt like I was just playing a pile of terrible cards, but I kept winning.

    My reaction to Storm

    Legacy: 12-Post
    EDH:Teneb, the Land Harvester
    5CC P.P.C.
  • #8
    Quote from Mockingbird
    I think that a more valid comparison when it comes to whether or not this deck is sufficiently different from an existing deck would be TinFins vs. The Spanish Inquisition because all are basically absurd dig power at the cost of almost all life to Storm out T1.

    Speaking of T1 kills, is there a T1 kill statistic on this deck yet?

    Sidenote: if TinFins is named after what Google told me it's named after, TinFins vs. the Spanish Inquisition would make a great sequel.


    From what we have seen from its performance in SCG tournaments, tinfins has a lower turn 1 kill percentage than spanish inquisition, belcher and the informer/balustrade combo.

    OFFTOPIC: As I can't check it out now, which decks made top8 ?
  • #9
    Quote from Hagalaz
    From what we have seen from its performance in SCG tournaments, tinfins has a lower turn 1 kill percentage than spanish inquisition, belcher and the informer/balustrade combo.

    OFFTOPIC: As I can't check it out now, which decks made top8 ?



    U/W/R Helm

    1st

    Jack Colwell


    Reanimator

    2nd

    Jacob Kory


    Sneak and Show

    3rd

    Joseph Loster


    Sneak and Show

    4th

    William Jensen


    Dredge

    5th

    Jason Bulkowski


    RUG Delver

    6th

    Thomas Johnson


    U/W/r Miracles

    7th

    Joe Lossett


    RUG Delver

    8th

    Barrett Kroeger
    "When you're playing legacy everyday is Christmas." ~Moa

    "You know a set is bad when people would rather discuss dildos than the spoiled cards."
    ~Barook
  • #10
    Quote from Hagalaz
    OFFTOPIC: As I can't check it out now, which decks made top8 ?


    1st: American (RWU) Rest in Peace
    2nd: Tin Fins
    3rd: Sneak Show
    4th: Sneak Show
    5th: Dredge
    6th: RUG Delver
    7th: American Miracles
    8th: RUG Delver

    Source.

    So, Tin Fins has officially made it's first meta-appearance.

    EDIT: Of course, I was ninja'd.
    "... Where is there most truth? The one prays in truth to God though he worships an idol; the other prays falsely to the true God, and hence worships in fact an idol." --Søren Kierkegaard (trans. David F. Swenson)
    Quote from Raggedjoe
    So I play tested this last night. It was... Weird. I felt like I was just playing a pile of terrible cards, but I kept winning.

    My reaction to Storm

    Legacy: 12-Post
    EDH:Teneb, the Land Harvester
    5CC P.P.C.
  • #11
    Caleb durwood claimed to have a 70-80% turn 1 game 1
  • #12
    Quote from Tormod
    Caleb durwood claimed to have a 70-80% turn 1 game 1


    What was his sample size for that data?
    "When you're playing legacy everyday is Christmas." ~Moa

    "You know a set is bad when people would rather discuss dildos than the spoiled cards."
    ~Barook
  • #13
    Quote from BMB01758
    What was his sample size for that data?


    You would have to ask Caleb
  • #14
    Quote from Tormod
    Caleb durwood claimed to have a 70-80% turn 1 game 1


    Holy out of context, Batman. Caleb was joking with the SCG staff when he said that.

    A quote from his TinFins article
    ...you should get something like an 18% turn one goldfish, sometimes with discard protection.
  • #15
    Quote from whienot
    Holy out of context, Batman. Caleb was joking with the SCG staff when he said that.

    A quote from his TinFins article


    Thank you for clarifying. That seemed absurdly high.
    "When you're playing legacy everyday is Christmas." ~Moa

    "You know a set is bad when people would rather discuss dildos than the spoiled cards."
    ~Barook
  • #16
    Quote from whienot
    Holy out of context, Batman. Caleb was joking with the SCG staff when he said that.

    A quote from his TinFins article

    ...you should get something like an 18% turn one goldfish, sometimes with discard protection.



    Its a number the SCG commentators said, I was just repeating it. I suppose 18% sounds like 80%.

    Quote from BMB01758
    Thank you for clarifying. That seemed absurdly high.


    That's what I was thinking, but more along the lines of "80%! Holy crap I got to build this beast"
  • #17
    Quote from Tormod

    That's what I was thinking, but more along the lines of "80%! Holy crap I got to build this beast"


    I guess that speaks more about my cynical character than anything. I just assume people are misunderstood or lying until proven otherwise.

    I have yet to see what's so great about this deck. It is a good combo, but it runs almost no protection. 2-4 Thoughtsieze are not enough to protect the combo, since they are only drawn in the opening hand ~22-40% of the time and if someone's going to stop you they would do it before you combo off and so you cannot rely on drawing them with Griselbrand. The cantrips do help with this, but it doesn't seem to be enough. If the deck had more consistent Turn 1 wins, then it would be better in regards to not requiring as much anti-hate, but this really looks to be more of a turn 2-3 win deck, which gives the opponent plenty of options.

    The sideboard is questionable as well. Even after boarding in, I cannot see how this deck protects its combo well enough.

    It's not as consistent and doesn't protect it's combo well enough like traditional Reanimator does. If you're going for pure speed, then I've had significantly better Turn 1 wins with Spy/Informer Combo deck and that's with Pact of Negation back up.

    As it stands, I cannot see justification for the hype. Does anyone else see something I'm not seeing?
    Last edited by BMB01758: 3/4/2013 10:39:24 AM
    "When you're playing legacy everyday is Christmas." ~Moa

    "You know a set is bad when people would rather discuss dildos than the spoiled cards."
    ~Barook
  • #18
    And of course SCG had poached all the Shallow Graves...
    Urza thought it a crusade. Xantcha knew it was a robbery...
  • #19
    It's 7-8 protection slots (Therapy, Thoughtseize, Silence) rather than 2-4. Pretty standard amount for something this fast (ie TES).
  • #20
    Quote from D00msday
    It's 7-8 protection slots (Therapy, Thoughtseize, Silence) rather than 2-4. Pretty standard amount for something this fast (ie TES).


    Therapy is not reliable hate without duplicates or Probe, but it is anti-hate. I missed Silence. It's a bit better protected then previously thought, but not much, and I'm still not seeing the selling point.
    "When you're playing legacy everyday is Christmas." ~Moa

    "You know a set is bad when people would rather discuss dildos than the spoiled cards."
    ~Barook
  • #21
    Deck is bonkers, but needs more work. I am not through with it yet.

    It is better protected than other Griselbrand decks, except perhaps Reanimator.
    It is equally protected as TES.
    It is more protected than ANT.

    Therapy is really powerful provided you know how to play it properly. You are not trying to hit cards they have in their hand. You are trying to hit cards that would stop you from winning right now. (FoW, Surgical, Mindbreak Trap, etc)

    Rumors of its Turn 1 win percentage is likely accurate. I would say around 20% is appropriate. It's higher in goldfish, obviously. Many matchups where the opponent cannot meaningfully interact also make that %age higher.
    Twitter - @MTGKoby | MODO - Koby
    5x SCG Legacy Open T8
    16th place GP Indianapolis 2012

    Check out my Legacy stream
  • #22
    ^ Congrats man. Do you know what the timestamps are for your match(es) this weekend? I can only watch Miracles and BUG Agent draw-Top-go for so long before I want to kill myself.
  • #23
    Quote from BMB01758
    As it stands, I cannot see justification for the hype. Does anyone else see something I'm not seeing?


    1. It's a shiny new Storm Deck
    2. It's a unique storm deck (it's the first that attacks in addition to building storm)
    3. Griselbrand
    4. It performed well in a high scale event.

    That's enough to justify the hype. But now that it's on everybody's radar, we will see whether or not it lives to that hype.
    Last edited by Mockingbird: 3/4/2013 7:08:24 PM
    "... Where is there most truth? The one prays in truth to God though he worships an idol; the other prays falsely to the true God, and hence worships in fact an idol." --Søren Kierkegaard (trans. David F. Swenson)
    Quote from Raggedjoe
    So I play tested this last night. It was... Weird. I felt like I was just playing a pile of terrible cards, but I kept winning.

    My reaction to Storm

    Legacy: 12-Post
    EDH:Teneb, the Land Harvester
    5CC P.P.C.
  • #24
    Quote from Mockingbird
    1. It's a shiny new Storm Deck
    2. It's a unique storm deck (it's the first that attacks in addition to building storm)
    3. Griselbrand
    3. It performed well in a high scale event.

    That's enough to justify the hype. But now that it's on everybody's radar, we will see whether or not it lives to that hype.


    Fair enough. We'll have to see how it fairs in the long run and if any further developments can make it into something truly special.

    I do like its uniqueness, I do like Griselbrand, and in its defence it did place well.

    My deck of choice is U/B Reanimator, so I'd be lying if I said this deck wasn't interesting. I'll keep an eye on it and do some play testing myself to see if there's anything better that can be done with it.
    "When you're playing legacy everyday is Christmas." ~Moa

    "You know a set is bad when people would rather discuss dildos than the spoiled cards."
    ~Barook
  • #25
    Quote from D00msday
    ^ Congrats man. Do you know what the timestamps are for your match(es) this weekend? I can only watch Miracles and BUG Agent draw-Top-go for so long before I want to kill myself.


    Thanks! I was put on camera for Rounds 7, Top 8, and finals.
    Twitter - @MTGKoby | MODO - Koby
    5x SCG Legacy Open T8
    16th place GP Indianapolis 2012

    Check out my Legacy stream
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