I don't like gsz in the deck as it becomes a dead draw fast. That said playing dryad arbor is a reason to play gsz. It also becomes stronger if you are including gaddock teeg and sigarda. I feel 4 copies is too many.
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For me, having 2x Explorations are really essential to "going off" fast with enchantress by playing another forest that you need to be enchanted by utopia sprawls to playing a 2 or third serra's sanctum to play emrakul that turn. Also, I've found Nykthos, shrine to Nyx is also helpful getting a bunch of green mana, similar to serra's sanctum but since more than half the deck is green, is super helpful getting green low drops out. Compare it to having a serra's sanctum early, its pretty much colorless mana except for sigil of the empty throne or having to cast a leyline of sanctity or humility. I definitely like a one of Nykthos in my deck so far because serra's sanctum still does easy work early without having to pay 2 mana to use the ability. It's also helpful by having "2" serra's sanctum out without having to tap a serra's sanctum and playing another soon after, it can really smooth things out that way.
I like it a lot. It's one of those low-key all stars. It allows me to go ham with Emrakul a lot earlier than I could without it. What I mean is you can make some absurd plays with another copy of Serra's Sanctum in your hand.
For a while I was considering Gaea's Touch, because it seems to make a lot of sense (its sacrifice to get GG is probably pretty useful), but I haven't had the opportunity to try it out.
The only way I keep a hand with no enchantress in it is if I have guile or a couple of tutors to find the enchantress effect. I also would keep a very hateful sideboard hand for particular matchups post board.
So I saw a few Spirit of the Labrynth kicking around this past weekend's SCG open, there to hose Treasure Cruise I assume, but it also randomly hoses us since we want to be drawing all the cards. Do we care about this, or do we just dodge or hope to use our limited removal on it? I'm considering a couple Lignify just as a hedge, or maybe a black enchantment that kills it...Curse of Death's Hold could do a lot of work, but I don't really want a fifth five mana enchantment ideally.
As I'm currently running 4 Thoughtseize/4 Brain Maggot I can theoretically steal problematic things like that before they become an issue. Maybe that's enough disruption.
So I saw a few Spirit of the Labrynth kicking around this past weekend's SCG open, there to hose Treasure Cruise I assume, but it also randomly hoses us since we want to be drawing all the cards. Do we care about this, or do we just dodge or hope to use our limited removal on it? I'm considering a couple Lignify just as a hedge, or maybe a black enchantment that kills it...Curse of Death's Hold could do a lot of work, but I don't really want a fifth five mana enchantment ideally.
As I'm currently running 4 Thoughtseize/4 Brain Maggot I can theoretically steal problematic things like that before they become an issue. Maybe that's enough disruption.
Thoughts?
What decks were running it? Death and Taxes i assume but i cant see anyone else boarding that in
Just to clarify some things. The 4 Green Sun's was added to the GW list over time to answer permission decks. At the time RUG Delver and miracles were very popular, and resolving your first enchantress was key. I tested Sterling Grove, City of Solitude, Autumn's veil, Silence, Enlightened Tutor and other cards to find a reliable way to resolve an enchantress while keeping up the decks pressure to just "go off" and from my testing Green Sun's provided the greatest bang for the buck as it was proactive and got an enchantress out quick. ...actually the fastest of all the cards tested. that is why it was added.
Then I had the same problem all enchantress decks had and that was beating fast combo. Of many strategies Green Sun-ing for Gaddock proved to be the most reliable, slot efficient, and effective way to win those MUs, and the Green Sun's gained more weight. Lastly, when I played in SCG Orlando in the subsequent rounds I got locked down by Death and Taxes. I went back to testing and from that tournament I added Harmonic Sliver (now Reclamation Sage)to the board to GSZ up to kill either Ethersworn or Spirit of the Labyrinth. Without 4 Green Sun's I'm am of the opinion the deck gets weaker to counter spells, Counterbalance (you can make GSZ any cost on the stack to work around counterbalance), Fast combo, and Death and Taxes. To remove GSZ from the list you will have to shore up those MUs in some other way.
As for Stoney Silence it was not added for the Miracles MU it was added for the combo MU. Almost all fast combo decks need artifact mana to function, Stony Silence cuts them off of that. This is why the list always has 3 to 4 in the board because you are to cast it as quickly as possible to knock combo off their plan a.
As Artifact decks aka tez, Painter, welder... decks became more popular that strategy got better and better. You can bring it in against Miracles, and I do, but that is not why it's in the list.
Stony + Leyline + Gaddock is usually enough to out hate their bounce and win with Emrakul ...It was the most slot efficient thing I could find to do without giving up much else to other MUs.
Gaddock Teeg is soooo good vs. combo, but I feel like running him alongside 4 GSZ is extremely risky.
You GSZ for him, and now all the rest of your GSZ's (including the one you're now shuffling back in) are dead. Unless your opponent kills him, that is.
I contend that against most combo lists, 4 Leyline of Sanctity in the sideboard is juuuuust fine. You could also add a single copy of Orim's Chant. If they're on the Empty the Warrens plan, you already have Elephant Grass and Solitary Confinement.
Then I must have misunderstood your rationale for Stony Silence. The deck tech made it sound as if Miracles were the primary concern. I still feel that Stony Silence is suboptimal in the combo matchups however (Overall. Obviously it's great against painter). It does nothing agaist elves and very little agaist show and tell or high tide. Vs storm it hits petals and led, but it competes with cards like Orim's Chant, Mindbreak Trap, Chalice of the Void etc. Besides, you probably want to keep the Rest in Peace anyway and I think one of the greatest advantages of your version is its ability to kill on turn 3 instead of letting the opponent dig for answers. I'd hate taking out that.
Having 5 virtual copies of Gaddock Teeg vs combo is a pretty good reason for running 4 GSZ. Though, like all card choices in enchantress it's a matter of prioritizing and I don't feel that the other matchups are that bad.
Would you care to explain the reasoning behind the Sugicals? I'm curious.
That is understandable. The deck tech did take some turns that I particularly wasn't interested in highlighting, but the host was. So that plays a factor in how the Tech went.
...and also let me state that Stony Silence is in the board primarily for ANT & TES. The others are a good boon, but that was the impetus. The GW version that I played at Star City was heavily "tuned" online and online can be (especially at that time) skewed to combo decks Namely ANT and Tin Fins / Re animator then.
Historically, Enchantress has a horrible MU vs. those decks and I set out to try and solve it. ANT w/o LED is in serious trouble because the the LED / Infernal Tutor "combo" is turned off. Likewise, Tin Fins without Lotus Petals is in trouble because they cannot hit W for Children, or mana to ritual on their go-off turn. So it's ample. I tried Orims, Mindbreak, Chalice (at 0) all of which were too slow or made the deck function weird. Orims for example made you play slower and fetch aggressively to W to keep it up which in turn gave your opponent more time to cantrip into discard. Chalice is beat by playing your stuff out early especially since most combo lists play probe. Mindbreak was okay, but it required Leyline to back it up otherwise they would just make you discard it. It didn't work well against Tin fins also.
When I looked at all of them Stony was the best it was cheap, permanent, on color, and an enchantment. It fit the bill and worked.
Stony Vs. Tide is also better than you think by turning off Candleabra and Top.
It irked me that I would have to take out helm to make it work I refused to test it for quite some time. ...but when I did it quickly proved it worth in wins, so I was more tolerant of it's "inefficiency."
Yes, 4 GSZ's is what makes Gaddock Good. ...and Gaddock is that good. Gaddock is at the root of almost all anti combo plans. In the deck Tech I mentioned he is good at stopping the "big dig" cards (not something else many people mistake it for) and by that I mean a lot of the draw spells / tutors. Time Spiral, Natural Order, Green Sun's, Ad Nauseam... ...let alone the wins Tendrils, Empty the Warrens, Blue Suns, Enter The Infinite...
Oblivion Ring effects, Guile, Gaddock, Karakas and Emrakul beat the Show and Tell decks.
I'm open to better innovation, but that was the best I could come up with that works.
As for the Surgicals their long gone current list below, but they were for Tin Fins / Reanimator as a way to beat them from the hand and not on the board. I'm not sure of the link rules of this forum but search youtube for "Enchantress vs. Tin Fins" on youtube and watch the one posted by ackjar for a good laugh. It wasn't staged.
Surgicals became plows to beat not only Reanimator, but the hatebears of D&T.
Feels very japanese. Main deck moat instead of elephant grass speaks volumes of what the meta looks like. Especially with the pile of creature removal.
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Maindeck Carpet of Flowers seems like it could be a good meta call with 70% of decks being blue. I suppose all the removal is great against Sneak and Show / Reanimator as well.
Contrary to popular belief, Leyline of Sanctity alone does absolutely nothing, nothing at all, agaist storm. Even when supported by a Sterling Grove the storm deck is heavily favoured. The leyline does not prevent them from going off, so they can for example tutor for Past in Flames, flashback the tutor to get another tutor, tutor for Chain of Vapor, cast and flashback Chain of Vapor to bounce both Sterling Grove and leyline and finally flashback the tutor for Tendrils of Agony.
If they are given time to actually draw a Chain of Vapor, they dont need to spend the extra mana on tutoring. All they need is 2 extra blue mana while they are going off for the chain of vapor.
A similar argument applies to high tide. They go off, generate 50+ mana and then wish for Repeal or similar to bounce the Leyline. Painter decks have close to 8 cards that kill the leyline once they have painter in play.
Leyline requires double Sterling Grove to be effective and even with double grove you're not safe. Belcher and some other Burning Wish decks can wish for Reverent Silence...
Even a single Sterling Grove will help protect you. Anything like that will buy you turns. Solitary Confinement itself is very good against them as well. It just can't come down on turn zero.
I feel like the Storm decks need a lot of things to go right for them before they can get Chain of Vapor and start going off.
With cards like Delver, Emrakul, and Griselbrand showing numbers in the format, what warrants use of Moat over Sphere of safety? I've found in play testing that Sphere does just as much work if not more than Moat (even to the point of replacing moat indefinitely). Perhaps it's a meta thing. Getting to 5 mana on turn 3 is a plausible outcome for us most of the time.
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T1: Forest, GSZ for 0 get Arbor
T2: Play land, tap 2 for Enchantress, tap other land, any 1 mana enchantment and get a cantrip.
I feel like it also gives good protection from an early Lilly or any other edicts.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Instants & Sorceries (4):
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Enlightened Tutor
Artifacts & Enchantments (31):
1 City of Solitude
3 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
1 Exploration
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Rest in Peace
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Sphere of Safety
4 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
8 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Savannah
3 Serra's Sanctum
1 Karakas
1 Aura of Silence
1 Choke
1 Elephant Grass
1 Karmic Justice
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Rest in Peace
2 Runed Halo
2 Seal of Primordium
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
For a while I was considering Gaea's Touch, because it seems to make a lot of sense (its sacrifice to get GG is probably pretty useful), but I haven't had the opportunity to try it out.
How do you like the 4 sterling grove's?
As I'm currently running 4 Thoughtseize/4 Brain Maggot I can theoretically steal problematic things like that before they become an issue. Maybe that's enough disruption.
Thoughts?
What decks were running it? Death and Taxes i assume but i cant see anyone else boarding that in
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Words of War is indeed the solution to Spirit of the Labyrinth. You can also run Gut Shot if you expect to see it a lot.
Then I had the same problem all enchantress decks had and that was beating fast combo. Of many strategies Green Sun-ing for Gaddock proved to be the most reliable, slot efficient, and effective way to win those MUs, and the Green Sun's gained more weight. Lastly, when I played in SCG Orlando in the subsequent rounds I got locked down by Death and Taxes. I went back to testing and from that tournament I added Harmonic Sliver (now Reclamation Sage)to the board to GSZ up to kill either Ethersworn or Spirit of the Labyrinth. Without 4 Green Sun's I'm am of the opinion the deck gets weaker to counter spells, Counterbalance (you can make GSZ any cost on the stack to work around counterbalance), Fast combo, and Death and Taxes. To remove GSZ from the list you will have to shore up those MUs in some other way.
As for Stoney Silence it was not added for the Miracles MU it was added for the combo MU. Almost all fast combo decks need artifact mana to function, Stony Silence cuts them off of that. This is why the list always has 3 to 4 in the board because you are to cast it as quickly as possible to knock combo off their plan a.
As Artifact decks aka tez, Painter, welder... decks became more popular that strategy got better and better. You can bring it in against Miracles, and I do, but that is not why it's in the list.
Stony + Leyline + Gaddock is usually enough to out hate their bounce and win with Emrakul ...It was the most slot efficient thing I could find to do without giving up much else to other MUs.
Hopefully that helps, and you can keep brewing.
-Freggle
You GSZ for him, and now all the rest of your GSZ's (including the one you're now shuffling back in) are dead. Unless your opponent kills him, that is.
I contend that against most combo lists, 4 Leyline of Sanctity in the sideboard is juuuuust fine. You could also add a single copy of Orim's Chant. If they're on the Empty the Warrens plan, you already have Elephant Grass and Solitary Confinement.
That is understandable. The deck tech did take some turns that I particularly wasn't interested in highlighting, but the host was. So that plays a factor in how the Tech went.
...and also let me state that Stony Silence is in the board primarily for ANT & TES. The others are a good boon, but that was the impetus. The GW version that I played at Star City was heavily "tuned" online and online can be (especially at that time) skewed to combo decks Namely ANT and Tin Fins / Re animator then.
Historically, Enchantress has a horrible MU vs. those decks and I set out to try and solve it. ANT w/o LED is in serious trouble because the the LED / Infernal Tutor "combo" is turned off. Likewise, Tin Fins without Lotus Petals is in trouble because they cannot hit W for Children, or mana to ritual on their go-off turn. So it's ample. I tried Orims, Mindbreak, Chalice (at 0) all of which were too slow or made the deck function weird. Orims for example made you play slower and fetch aggressively to W to keep it up which in turn gave your opponent more time to cantrip into discard. Chalice is beat by playing your stuff out early especially since most combo lists play probe. Mindbreak was okay, but it required Leyline to back it up otherwise they would just make you discard it. It didn't work well against Tin fins also.
When I looked at all of them Stony was the best it was cheap, permanent, on color, and an enchantment. It fit the bill and worked.
Stony Vs. Tide is also better than you think by turning off Candleabra and Top.
It irked me that I would have to take out helm to make it work I refused to test it for quite some time. ...but when I did it quickly proved it worth in wins, so I was more tolerant of it's "inefficiency."
Yes, 4 GSZ's is what makes Gaddock Good. ...and Gaddock is that good. Gaddock is at the root of almost all anti combo plans. In the deck Tech I mentioned he is good at stopping the "big dig" cards (not something else many people mistake it for) and by that I mean a lot of the draw spells / tutors. Time Spiral, Natural Order, Green Sun's, Ad Nauseam... ...let alone the wins Tendrils, Empty the Warrens, Blue Suns, Enter The Infinite...
Oblivion Ring effects, Guile, Gaddock, Karakas and Emrakul beat the Show and Tell decks.
I'm open to better innovation, but that was the best I could come up with that works.
As for the Surgicals their long gone current list below, but they were for Tin Fins / Reanimator as a way to beat them from the hand and not on the board. I'm not sure of the link rules of this forum but search youtube for "Enchantress vs. Tin Fins" on youtube and watch the one posted by ackjar for a good laugh. It wasn't staged.
Surgicals became plows to beat not only Reanimator, but the hatebears of D&T.
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Artifacts
1 Helm of Obedience
Sorceries
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Kruphix's Insight -- I'm not certain where I stand on this card in this list but lately I have been jamming it.
Enchantments
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
3 Rest in Peace
3 Suppression Field
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Elephant Grass
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Banishing Light
4 Serra's Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
1 Plains
1 Karakas
11 Forest
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Stony Silence
2 Banishing Light
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
Creature [5]
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Helm of Obedience
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Banishing Light
3 Mirri's Guile
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Journey to Nowhere
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Rest in Peace
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Moat
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
3 Serra's Sanctum
1 Karakas
3 Humility
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Elephant Grass
3 Suppression Field
2 Replenish
Discuss!
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
I feel like the Storm decks need a lot of things to go right for them before they can get Chain of Vapor and start going off.
I like it. Three wincons (Emrakul, Sigil, Helm). Very elegant.