Hey vacrix, I'm happy to say that after a lot of goldfishing I'm starting to see the path to a t1 win much more quickly now. Recently, I got a hand of D Rit x3, Infernal Tutor, Summoner's Pact x2, Lotus Petal. A week ago it would have taken me like 5 minutes to figure out how to win t1 with this, but now I can just tell right away. So, I Petalled, D Ritted x3, Summoner's Pacted for Cantor and ESG and ITd for IT for Tendrils. IT for IT is something I just figured out too lol. Anyways, just wanted to say thanks a lot for all your help and explanations, this is a great deck. Also anyone who says this deck goes off on t1 less than 50-55% of the time is just wrong.
Hey vacrix, I'm happy to say that after a lot of goldfishing I'm starting to see the path to a t1 win much more quickly now. Recently, I got a hand of D Rit x3, Infernal Tutor, Summoner's Pact x2, Lotus Petal. A week ago it would have taken me like 5 minutes to figure out how to win t1 with this, but now I can just tell right away. So, I Petalled, D Ritted x3, Summoner's Pacted for Cantor and ESG and ITd for IT for Tendrils. IT for IT is something I just figured out too lol. Anyways, just wanted to say thanks a lot for all your help and explanations, this is a great deck. Also anyone who says this deck goes off on t1 less than 50-55% of the time is just wrong.
while it's good to see you enjoy the deck (it is fun to pilot) could you spread some light as to where i may have misplayed in one of my examples? i'm aware that i could have tutored up a slithermuse once instead of a draw 4, but other than that, i think i went down every possible decision tree and found either fizzles or lethal storm in every one.
Time Reversal is a bad version of Diminish Returns. I wouldn't bother with it.
Plunge into Darkness I have always liked as a card. I've made a mental not to play around with it at some point.
@malcolmbw
I'm glad you are figuring the deck out. There are many lines of play you need to memorize to know whether or not to mulligan. The more you play the deck, the more familiar it becomes.
@jokulmorder
Don't play that list. It was an experimental list that I was testing. It didn't quite work out as well as the updated list with LG's and Belcher so I switched back. That list has a lot more time going off quickly.
Also, don't mulligan every hand that can't win turn 1.
Wow we get a lot of xantid swarms. Unfortunately, it's impossible to win t1 with this hand so we mulligan.
So not this. You cannot learn the deck with this perspective. Re-read the primer.
Just looking at your hands...
Game 9
Searching up ESG gives us more options than the off-chance we get a culling, so searching up that is the best option. Otherwise, search up dryad arbor. I'll do ESG first. Storm 4 getting there (don't exile for chrome mox).
Not really. If you use Pact to find ESG, then you are limiting your Pact + LED --> Ewit line of play. What the D4 yielded would allow you to win on either case, but remember that you have Chrome Mox in hand, a perpetual resource. Pact puts you all in which isn't necessarily the right call. I'd probably be more conservative and play Petal, Dark Ritual, D4.
Game 8
This is a great hand. You have access to Xantid Swarm to protect your combo, and therefore Culling Fodder, as well as perpetual mana. Why can't this hand win? You play Xantid and pass (Chrome Mox if you are on the draw anticipating Daze). Then play your D4 on turn 2, protected, which will yield 1 more card than shown in your spoiler. If that doesn't work, pass the turn and win turn 3.
I think you are trying too hard to focus on winning on the first turn than just winning. The fact is that you are new to the deck. You will not be winning on the first turn consistently until you first learn how to win. Your current approach to the deck will probably just leave you frustrated. Focus on winning, then move on to the more skillful aspect of 'pushing the deck to its limits'.
Game 6
Another amazing hand. Double Chrome Mox is beast against control. And you have Xantid? Easily the best hand in the set as it can be explosive, recover from a fizz, and protect the combo.
Game 1
Another amazing hand. You have 2 lands, as well as Chrome Moxen and Xantid Swarm, great against control.
In short, pushing the deck to its limits is a skill acquired through many months of practice. I tried to make it clear in the primer that its far from automatic, and its one of the hardest decks to play in the whole format. Remember, the deck doesn't pull off turn 1 kills, the pilot does.
In other news, a guy on the source, Jodahae, brought a new creature to my attention that we should test: Tukatongue Thallid
For G you get 2 creatures. This potentially supports a x2 Culling in the spell chain, as well Cabal Therapy MD or post-board. Not quite sure how to work Cabal Therapy into the list though if I'm usually cutting Summoner's Pact post-board.
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it was not so much criticizing the deck, but rather the number of turn 1 wins. if all i am trying to do is find the win% turn 1, then we must mulligain every hand that cannot win turn 1.
but yes, many of those hands were perfectly fine for a turn 2-3 win, i just disagree that the deck can have such a high win rate on turn 1 and not completely dominate the format (as having force of will and a blue card in hand should still work out to unfavorable chances for the opponent). there is pretty much nothing aggro can do other than potentially burn down the xantid swarms and hold onto Mindbreak Trap which means your only threats should be decks running an assortment of force of will, daze, and spell pierce/snare (which is still in your favor mathematically unless they're on the play). the only deck i can see that would consistently give you a hard time is a stax list running Sphere of Resistance with Leyline of the Void in the side and them aggressively mulliganing into it (all this is assuming you actually have a 60+% turn 1 winrate).
like i said, i think the deck is good and works fine, i just want to see some more evidence for that claimed win ratio.
Sure but that list wasn't built to win ASAP. It was a variant I was testing in an aggro control heavy metagame. I'm sure you'll have more luck with the updated list. I didn't fare to well with that list either.
Its not as unfavorable as you make it seem. Even if we had 100% turn 1 unprotected kills, we'd still get our first attempt stopped about 40% of the time. Thats not consistent enough to dominate the format.
We tend to beat control decks that don't back up their countermagic with some sort of hard lock. SI can rebuild into a game winning hand too quickly.
I could state all the evidence I want but thats probably not going to be good enough unless it can be replicated. Other people have done it, but it requires you to play the deck like its supposed to be played, which means win comfortably on turn 3/4 and then work your way up to turn 2, then turn 1, unless the win is obvious. Then you learn the intricate lines of play and become familiar with how far the deck can be pushed before you are no longer taking calculated risks.
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All right, I think I've sort of got a list cobbled together. To start off, I want whatever I end up playing to not completely roll over to a deck with counters. That being said, I'm completely incompetent at playing the Pact Version, and after reading the primer a few more times I realized that I missed the part that mentioned that it's the worst version against control. I've tried every list in the primer except QSI, which I haven't gotten around to yet. It might be more of what I'm looking for, but I totally just bought 2 Bayou and don't want to purchase Underground Sea...So, I ended up with the Land Grant Version:
I cut a Cruel Bargain because I hate drawing extra D4 cards off of my D4 spells when I'm trying to go off (and in part because I haven't got a fourth one at the moment). I'm loving how most of the cards in the deck can be played for no mana to increase your storm count, and the number of times I've naturally been able to play Infernal Tutor as Demonic Tutor without Lion's Eye Diamond is amazing.
Dryad Arbor is in the deck because I just want an excuse to play it--I haven't done any real testing against any opponents, so time will tell if I should play the second Bayou instead. Being able to use Land Grant as a tutor for Culling the Weak Fodder has been pretty cool, though. Cabal Therapy seems...much better than I've ever given it credit for. I really hate counterspells, so Duress is taking the spot that the 4th Bargain would occupy, and Cabal Therapy does have the issue of being a little iffy when you don't know your opponent's hand/your opponent hasn't played a card yet, so I cut one Therapy for the second Duress.
I'm also finding that in solitaire, I might end up playing so many D4 spells that I'm just dead to any burn spell. I know the point is to go off before your opponent has the resources to disrupt you, but I don't want to die because I let Zoo play one land and get Bolted. Has that been an issue with anyone? It's another reason I'm playing the Duress.
I sort of worry about how Land Grant plays as a card against control. I feel like it's probably not a good thing to let any opponent with any experience with combo know exactly what you can and can't do, because they would know the best time to disrupt you. Is there any way I should be specifically trying to play to deal with this? I was thinking that I could wait until the last moment to play Land Grant, after my hand was basically already on the table, but that seems silly--especially when I found that I'd keep drawing my Land off of D4 spells when I had Land Grant in hand.
I'm not sure about the Sideboard, but I don't think I like the whole "man-plan." I sort of want to directly port the current sideboard from the Vacrix's Pact list, but I don't know how well that would work out yet. Does my deck look like it has enough green to reasonably support Carpet of Flowers and Autumn's Veil/Xantid Swarm? (I know I want to play one or the other because I need to protect the combo, but I really want to play Autumn's Veil because it's a green counterspell/chant.) If it can be done, I'd play some Combination of Carpet of Flowers, Autumn's Veil/Xantid Swarm, another Duress, Artifact/Enchantment Removal, and some sort of secondary win condition. More Charbelchers makes complete sense to me now, along with the Tombs, because I finally understand the concept of having resources that carry over to your next attempt to combo out if you get disrupted (it's not something you think about if you don't play against opponents at all). You want the deck to play less spells that are a "one and done" sort of deal--you can activate Charbelcher multiple times if it resolves, and all. The Tombs seem less good for me though, other than being a land, since Urami would be the only creature worth removing in my deck, and the one time I actually tried the deck out against a friend, he had nothing to side his removal out for so Urami got hit with Swords every time he didn't die to EE--and EE for 0 wrecks the guy/this deck pretty hard at times.
I was considering searching for some kind of pump spell/enchantment that could make my fodder creatures into a viable threat so you could win that way, but I'm not sure such a card exists that would be big enough to win fights with Tarmogoyf, fast enough because of blockers, and/or isn't too fragile to rely on (One removal spell would set you back pretty far if you spent all that time making your creature into a threat). I'm still looking though.
Any feedback is certainly appreciated. I'm sure I'm not 100% with this deck, as I have only really been working with it for a few weeks, and I have spent all of that time playing solitaire in my room, so there could be something I'm just completely missing.
Edit: So my sideboard right now is 1 Bayou, 2 Tomb of Urami, 2 Goblin Charbelcher, 1 Duress, 1 Autumn's Veil, 4 Carpet of Flowers, 4 Xantid Swarm. Against any Deck with Islands in it, I side all of it in and take out 4 Phyrexian Walker, 4 Shield Sphere, 4 Culling the Weak, 2 Ill-Gotten Gains, and 1 Tendrils of Agony.
10 protection spells is enough, isn't it? 3 Duress, 3 Cabal Therapy, 4 Xantid Swarm seems like a lot, already. Swarm got the nod over Autumn's Veil because it sacrifices to Cabal Therapy, but I'm still playing around to see if which is actually better for me. I'm only playing the one Autumn's Veil because I can't think of any other spells to put in the spot. I think I'd want it to be a win condition of some sort, but nothing good comes to mind.
So...Do I need to side for any decks other than decks with counters? I can't imagine that trying to fight through Trinisphere or Chalice of the Void is any fun.
Went undefeated at my local. I didn't win though.. because I got 2 byes in a row. Possibly a case of being too lucky?
I played the list from the O.P with the same board I've been testing (with Tomb not Omnath).
Match 1
Bye
1-0
Match 2
Bye
I know this isn't supposed to happen. The guy running the program that pairs everyone even tried to repair and it gave me the bye again so we just kept the same pairings.
2-0
Match 3: Faeries UGW
Game 1: I lead with IT--> Slithermuse with B floating, draw 7, into a lethal Tendrils.
Game 2: I lead with Tomb of Urami, Duress. He plays Spell Pierce. Next turn I play Duress, he counters with Spellstutter Sprite. Then I lay down Chrome Mox on green, and Chrome Mox on black, and try to play Belcher. He plays FoW. Next turn I play Carpet of Flowers. Then, I use mana from Carpet 2nd mainphase to crack Tomb of Urami. My Urami token allows me to comfortably set up, protecting me as a wall against his small, equipment-less Faeries. I’m at 4 life and he’s a few guys short of racing me. 3 turns later or so, I have 3 Carpets of Flowers out. I use 2 of them to add 4 mana to my mana pool, and play a D4, which gets FoWed. I play another, to which he has no answer. I play another Carpet of Flowers, pass to my 2nd mainphase, use the other 2 Carpets to add enough mana to play Belcher and activate for the win.
3-0
Match 4: Weird BG ☺☺☺☺
Game 1: He leads with Polluted Delta. I think he might be playing blue. I play Land Grant for Bayou, Dark Ritual, Cruel Bargain. I start chaining some D4’s together until I have only B floating. I can try for Belcher this turn but I would have to use Summoner’s Pact. I have plenty of resources so I decide to play it safe. I use the remaining mana to play Odious Trow (so basically I trolled that whole turn for like 15 minute). Then I use Culling the Weak to play and activate Belcher on my next turn.
Game 2: He leads with Cabal Therapy on Belcher. He gets it and I had a lethal Belcher kill in my hand. A few turns later he plays Hymn and gets ToA and IT out of my hand. He then extirpates away my Belchers. I had played Odious Trow and Dryad Arbor already which beat him down to 16 until he play Damnation. I know he is extremely slow so I wait until I have 8 cards, and then go off with a lot of mana, and Pact-->Eternal Witness-->IT-->IT-->Tendrils
4-0
Overall, I haven't really decided if my night was satisfying. I biked something like 10 miles to play in this FNM and I only got to play twice. The SB plan worked well, though I must say Faeries have a far from intimidating clock.
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...Which list in the original post? The primer PSI, or the one you use in the sample hands?
I'm still interested in playing the Pact list (mostly because it's hilarious)...I'm still trying to figure it out a little bit. And I've no idea how you play the deck against control. Any advice? And how is the DSI deck coming along? What snags are you running into?
I changed the PSI list in the primer to the list I used in sample hands. The other list I posted was an experimental list that didn't actually work as well as I expected it to.
Against control you have a few options, each of which depend on your opening 7. You can go balls to the wall and try to win turn one with IT if that is your opening hand. The other option is to just go for your first draw 4 and don't go all into that D4 meaning hold your Pacts and LEDs in hand so that you aren't using too many resources. Trading Blue card + FoW for something like Land Grant + Dark Ritual + Cruel Bargain isn't actually that bad, especially if you are using a staying mana source like Chrome Mox, meaning you are essentially trading 2 cards for 2 cards. Also, don't try to go off if you can wait and play around Daze.
Sometimes you will just win game 1 because your opponent isn't protected with FoW. In game 2/3 you have 15 cards to board in. The board I've been using has been working well so far.
As for DSI, I haven't really been working on it to tell the truth. I've been busy optimizing the PSI sideboard.
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So I too have been testing your pact list from the OP for about a week and a half now, keeping track of records and am also finding the percentages to be off. I don't doubt that its possible to obtain those high percentages of turn 1 wins but I just find myself incapable of achieving them. On my last 20 hand run i went off turn 1 about 1/3 of the time, turns 2-5 about 1/3 of the time, and just kinda failed the last third of the time. I'm not sure what I need to do to up the percentages a bit. I can see there's power in the list with a ton of versatility which is why I like it so much. Are there any other tips for really useful spell combos that haven't been posted yet? (I have read through the thread a number of times).
Also has anyone tried to make a video yet? Vacrix, since you clearly know the deck the best would you possibly be able to make some sort of video tutorial? I LOVE the concept you have and truly want to learn how to pilot it better and justify actually getting the cards together and sleeving it up, just need to see the percentages to convince me its worth it =D. Thanks a ton for the deck and guidance man!
PS- really was a great OP!
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Which list? I recently updated the OP. I keep it more up to date on TheSource than I do here just because I can't remember if i updated it or not.
The original list didn't work out as I anticipated. It was pretty inconsistent. Try the updated list, the same as the list I used for sample hands. There are many ways to create intricate lines of play, most of which involve adapting the maindeck to include different Summoner's Pact targets. IT lines of play are numerous just because sometimes you have the opportunity to double up on a specific line of play, like double Culling the Weak, or double Cabal Ritual, or even double Belcher if you are trying to set up that line of play.
Also, when you see the obvious line of play, look for another option if that option improves your chances against specific hate. If you expect Cannonist or Teeg, you might want to drop Belcher now and wait to draw the resources to activate it. If you expect Daze, try to save mana to pay the 1. If you expect FoW, try not to go all in, namely with LEDs or Pacts.
I'm still getting around to doing a video. Maybe I can do that this weekend..
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Yeah I did use the updated list. Are you not running wild cantor though? if not why? I adapted my list to include one for the color fixing and thought it helped. But yes I'll just keep practicing until I see a video or something =D and keep you posted.
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I took PSI to a local tourney the other day. It's only the second legacy tournament I ever attended (I recently moved from an area with no legacy whatsoever, after lurking here, on the source, and on the storm boards for a while). I played this list:
I didn't take detailed notes, but here's a report based off of what I do remember:
Round 1 (Eva Green)
This was overall a crappy round. I mulliganned a lot, into bad hands, and then fizzled repeatedly. I kept at least one hand that I should not have. My opponent also drew poorly, but was able to eventually capitalize on my fizzles.
0-2, 0-1
Round 2 (TES)
There are a lot of TES players at my venue, which I found a bit surprising. I see tendrils when he's shuffling and put him correctly on TES. I don't remember who won the roll, only that I attempted to combo on around turn two and got chanted after around six spells (luckily I hadn't cast the pact I was holding). My opponent was unable to go off though, and I went off again two turns later and killed with a lethal Belcher activation. Game two I think my opponent kept a turn-2 kill on the play, but I had lethal Tendrils turn one on the draw.
2-0, 1-1
Round 3 (Countertop Painter)
Not knowing what he was playing, I choose to draw and he lays a Scalding Tarn. I guess Dreadstill and decide I need to combo off immediately. My hand was ridiculous - a couple Chrome Mox, rituals, and draw spells. My first Mox meets Daze, but my second resolves followed by a long spell chain. He doesn't have Force, and I IT->Tendrils off of LED. I still am not entirely sure what he's playing, and board something like this:
This game two is possibly the most epic thing I have ever experienced playing magic. Vacrix, I didn't believe you when you stated how insane the all protection/belcher board was against control. I don't remember exactly what happened, other than this was a very long game and I managed to eventually force a lethal Belcher through something like 3 Force, 2 Daze, and an active Counterbalance/Top (resolving one Carpet of Flowers helped greatly, as he countered all my other protection). I killed with Painter's Servant in play and Grindstone in my opponent's hand (he had just fetched it with Trinket Mage).
2-0, 2-1
Round 4 (TES)
Another TES matchup. I don't remember too much of game 1 other than that I won the roll and elected to draw knowing what my opponent was playing. He looked at me like I was an idiot and asked "seriously?" I nodded and then killed him turn 1 on the draw. I wish I had a camera to record the dumbfounded expression this caused. Anyways, game two I mulliganned a couple times and then got Duressed. I was eventually able to spit out a Mini-Tendrils which prevented my opponent from using Ad Nauseam, but was unable to rebuild before he could set up a lethal IGG Loop. Game three I was hit by more discard, but managed to resolve a Belcher and pass the turn. Apparently he had Wish in his hand to go for Shattering Spree, but failed to do so and I activated Belcher with both lands left in my deck the following turn (I was pretty sure he was going to combo off). I lucksacked and didn't hit either land.
2-1, 3-1
I made top eight, but lost to an Aggro-Loam player who mulled hard for Chalice as he knew what I was playing. My hands weren't quite fast enough to kill turn one, and I drew too many zero-cost sources in both games to be able to play around Chalice at zero. I also made a couple of glaring play errors like not dropping some artifact mana when I had the chance game one (he immediately topdecked chalice). In retrospect I could have boarded in more Belchers and Duress, not sure if that would be the right call. The sideboard I used was perfect against blue, but is there a simple way to prepare against Aggro Loam and Stompy Decks?
Overall I was impressed with the deck, it just had some issues in producing consistently good hands. However, I'm a horrible pilot so a lot of the losses were due to me as well.
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Combo is a part of magic. If you cant deal with combo then your not a magic player.
Nice report man. Discard is an interesting matchup because usually you will have to wait on resources to go off, instead of countermagic where you invest a lot of resources into a turn. Eva Green's clock isn't particularly fast so lay down your Chrome Moxes and LEDs before they can get discarded. Sometimes you can just storm off and win but if they get a discard spell off you will probably have to wait. If you want to play it safe and avoid Hymn's.. drop as many resources as you can and then just try to set up the Belcher kill. Post-board, I like to board in Belchers. Also, try to keep your opening 7 if you are on the draw. You should expect to lose what you need to go off so having more resources in hand is an asset. Also, save or just don't play your Land Grants unless you really need to. You don't want to give your opponent the opportunity to use his Wastelands and/or Sinkholes.
Against Aggro loam, you should board in your Belchers. Usually they will mulligan aggressively for a lock piece so opening hands with Land Grant, ESG, and Manamorphose are strong hands as they play around both Chalice at 0 and 1. Personally, I would also board in Tomb of Urami just because their clock is painfully slow, and having more initial black sources is an asset especially if all your 0 mana sources get shut down. If you want in game 3, you can also board in Duresses for safe measure, especially if they are mulliganing down to 4. You called it right though in hindsight so its just a learning experience that you can capitalize on. I've made the same mistakes before against Stompy. Honestly when you have to worry about lock pieces, just go for the Belcher kill. Don't even bother with Tendrils unless it falls into your lap.
Nice job against Countertop Painter by the way. For your second tournament, I wouldn't expect you to go 2-0 against what is easily your hardest matchup. Yes the board is bat☺☺☺☺ insane against U.dec, and its pretty easy to underestimate. The strength really is that instead of landing 1 threat (D4), you can go for 2, anticipating your opponent's response. From those 2 you just keep piling on resources until you can explode. Was EtW and the 4th Duress any better than Tombs? I know most people probably aren't comfortable boarding in more lands with Belchers but Tomb is a game winning threat against Merfolk and Stompy, as well as more initial black sources.
And for the record, I have epic games like the one you describe all the time, one of reasons I love to play this deck.
By the way, you mentioned that you had some issues producing consistency. The thing is you cut 2 Business spells for 2 Manamorphose. This makes your mana base more flexible but you will probably find yourself lacking business spells in your spell chains.
Leyline is a horrible horrible card. The decks that would play it should expect to play far more Belcher, TES and even DDFT than SI. Those decks can all answer Leyline easily, as TES and Belcher can just go for EtW while DDFT can just play around it with Emrakul, bounce it, etc. In short, don't prepare for bad cards. Its properly suited to 'beat PSI' provided you don't prepare for it in the board. If you want, you can play Nature's Claim post-board if you want to deal slow down and deal with bears. I prefer not to and instead opt to improve my U.dec matchup. Also, half the people I know that are playing SI at the moment are playing SITES which has access to MD EtW as well as Burning Wish-->Answer.
So a simple answer is I don't prepare for it, but if you want to thats entirely up to you.
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Thanks Vacrix. Yeah, against Eva Green I walked right into Dark Rit + Thoughtseize + Sinkhole game 2 by dropping a land and passing the turn – seems terrible in hindsight. Belchers sound like they would make this matchup way easier as long as I don’t walk into Maelstrom Pulse, which worries me a little.
I’ll bring in the Belcher plan against Loam in the future (I think there’s only one guy who plays it in my meta, but he’s good so I’ll probably meet him in T8 a lot). Thankfully I haven’t seen any Stompy or Staxx decks – Trinisphere gives me nightmares. Duress I even thought about before game two of that match, but I decided against it in the vain hope I could get a T1 kill (bad move).
I boarded ETW against U only – it took the place of another Belcher as a concession to Leyline of Sanctity, as I wasn’t sure if anyone played it in my meta. I didn’t see any Leylines that day though, so I’m not sure if I’ll keep it in. I’m not sure I want to board tombs right now just because I ended up going all-in for Belcher a couple of times with one or both lands left in my deck. I had the luck with me on those, but I don’t want to make the probability even worse. It would help a lot against certain U matchups though. Also, having 4 Duress was both good against U and gives me some insurance against agro decks that mull aggressively for Mindbreak Trap (and with there being 3 or 4 TES players in my meta, I expect a lot of Storm hate).
Cutting two business spells was a decision that I made after noticing that I fizzled a lot more due to business overload than I did to not drawing enough, but I’m not sure if it’s the right call especially as all my testing was done in goldfishing (no access to MWS where I am right now). Recently I cut one manamorphose for an IGG, I think I’ll test either that or a second Belcher for a while. I might also put another Belcher in place of the ETW in the board.
Unfortunately, I’m not going to be able to attend any tournaments until October as I am out of the country in an area where there’s no MTG.
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EDH: UB Oona, Queen of the Fae
Combo is a part of magic. If you cant deal with combo then your not a magic player.
If you're playing a list with Phyrexian Walker/Shield Sphere, it appears that there's a new 0 mana guy to consider playing that's coming out in the next set; Memnite.
His toughness isn't as high, but he's got power. So, if nothing, you can cast him and he can go on the offensive if you have nothing better to do.
I like the card. The main reason I'm thinking about it is that the deck is supposed to destroy aggro anyway, so playing 0 mana guys as blockers seems silly. So, in theory, I'd cut Phyrexian Walker for this guy because Shield Sphere is still gigantic if it comes down to blocking. The other thing I was thinking about was that the worst matchups as I have seen and heard are matches with Counterspells + Bears, and I suppose the Walker blocks Meddling Mage/Mishra's Factory a hell of a lot better.
Another thing is that the deck is supposed to be so fast that I could imagine any damage this guy deals being marginal. Then again...one fetchland activation + 1 attack step from Memnite means you need to cast one less spell to kill with Tendrils, so it could be good.
Edit: Mox Opal. Could it have a place here? I'm a bit skeptical because it's legendary, but I haven't tried it out yet. I was looking on the Source and BC made a post about a theoretical 1-land list that I find very interesting--I'm about to start testing it. No matter how many times I try playing the Pact list, it hasn't been working for me, so I'm definitely all for working on a list that uses 0 mana guys.
With this many (0) cost creatures, why not instead run GSI, and then run the crazy amounts of (0) cost creatures. They count as spells, blockers and they draw you a card. Just run some Land grants, a Bayou or two, some Diabolic Intents and you're good. As for Mox Opal, It seems like it could be really good as a 2 of, or a 4 of if we can find some sort of relevant sac outlet. Ravager Doesn't help the deck at all. Maybe a green creature that has an artifact sac outlet for PSI? I don't think one exists...
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I found this theoretical deck at The Source, in a post by BC.
Mox Opal 0
Legendary Artifact
Metalcraft -t: Add 1 mana of any color to your mana pool. Activate this ability only if you control three or more artifacts.add one mana of any color if you control 3 or more artifacts.
Now then...I'll admit that I'm not the best player of the deck, so I was pretty frustrated at times when I first started testing this out. However, I just had a string of turn one kills in my last few games of solitaire, one even off of a mulligan to four, so I can say that I've never been as confident with this kind of deck as I was when I was trying this deck out.
The biggest problem I'd keep having is that the deck doesn't seem to want to draw multiples of anything. Drawing more than one Mox Opal is horrible, drawing more than one Chrome Mox is horrible, drawing more than one Land Grant is horrible (albeit less so than the first two because they don't imprint to Chrome Mox), and you can only play four "Draw 4" Spells before you literally die. I feel like I want to play one less Opal and one less Cruel Bargain, though I don't know what I'd put in over them. I've found that I have a love affair with Cabal Therapy, so if I cut anything in this deck, it might be Therapies that I put in.
I've very rarely had any issues with having the artifacts in play to make Mox Opal work. Slithermuse is also the king of kings in this deck--The Original poster remarked that it was playable due to Mox Opal as a blue source, but I haven't cast the Muse once off of Opal because I often have to tap the Opal for black mana to start my chains before I sacrifice a creature/Lotus Petal/Lion's Eye Diamond which would've tapped for blue anyway.
In hindsight, it should be noted that I probably fizzled a lot of games because I forgot about the Empty the Warrens route in the deck a few times. I'm loving that you have so many angles of attack with the deck--I've been trying to win via Tendrils most of the time, unless the Charbelcher kill presents itself, and very frequently I'm noting that I could have at any time just stopped trying to push the deck and opted to just play Empty the Warrens instead.
I've only every really played Ill-Gotten Gains twice, and I once only did it to reuse my Lotus Petal to evoke Slithermuse, so I'm not sure how effective it really is here, since it usually just sat in my hand as the card I couldn't cast that stopped me from casting a Hellbent tutor.
As a sidenote, would it be possible to go landless with this deck? What could you put in the place of the land grants?
I'm also looking forward to any Glimpse lists anyone ends up making with the possibility of 16 free artifact guys.
Something like that seems possible. Completely speculative, I didn't really test this out, but I probably will. It seems fun. Why doesn't the Glimpse list on the front play 4 Glimpses? Also, originally when i thought up this list it had Summoners Pact and Elvish Spirit Guide in it, but i think Mox Opal helps us with the color fixing even more than it did before, also Chrome Mox imprinting Land Grant is actually useful in this list.
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I found this theoretical deck at The Source, in a post by BC.
Mox Opal 0
Legendary Artifact
Metalcraft -t: Add 1 mana of any color to your mana pool. Activate this ability only if you control three or more artifacts.add one mana of any color if you control 3 or more artifacts.
Now then...I'll admit that I'm not the best player of the deck, so I was pretty frustrated at times when I first started testing this out. However, I just had a string of turn one kills in my last few games of solitaire, one even off of a mulligan to four, so I can say that I've never been as confident with this kind of deck as I was when I was trying this deck out.
The biggest problem I'd keep having is that the deck doesn't seem to want to draw multiples of anything. Drawing more than one Mox Opal is horrible, drawing more than one Chrome Mox is horrible, drawing more than one Land Grant is horrible (albeit less so than the first two because they don't imprint to Chrome Mox), and you can only play four "Draw 4" Spells before you literally die. I feel like I want to play one less Opal and one less Cruel Bargain, though I don't know what I'd put in over them. I've found that I have a love affair with Cabal Therapy, so if I cut anything in this deck, it might be Therapies that I put in.
I've very rarely had any issues with having the artifacts in play to make Mox Opal work. Slithermuse is also the king of kings in this deck--The Original poster remarked that it was playable due to Mox Opal as a blue source, but I haven't cast the Muse once off of Opal because I often have to tap the Opal for black mana to start my chains before I sacrifice a creature/Lotus Petal/Lion's Eye Diamond which would've tapped for blue anyway.
In hindsight, it should be noted that I probably fizzled a lot of games because I forgot about the Empty the Warrens route in the deck a few times. I'm loving that you have so many angles of attack with the deck--I've been trying to win via Tendrils most of the time, unless the Charbelcher kill presents itself, and very frequently I'm noting that I could have at any time just stopped trying to push the deck and opted to just play Empty the Warrens instead.
I've only every really played Ill-Gotten Gains twice, and I once only did it to reuse my Lotus Petal to evoke Slithermuse, so I'm not sure how effective it really is here, since it usually just sat in my hand as the card I couldn't cast that stopped me from casting a Hellbent tutor.
As a sidenote, would it be possible to go landless with this deck? What could you put in the place of the land grants?
I'm also looking forward to any Glimpse lists anyone ends up making with the possibility of 16 free artifact guys.
I disagree. Double Chrome Mox is great against control. Double Land Grant sets up the Belcher kill nicely. Mox Opal is the only thing you really don't want to see in multiples.
You can't really play landless SI. You could try now that we have access to Mox Opal.. and I guess you could play ESG's and SSG's + Manamorphose or something, but I don't know how consistent that mana base would be.
Glimpse lists look underwhelming at the moment. We are working on a non-SI Glimpse/Retract list on the StormBoards, but its nothing to shake a stick at just yet.
@7H0R
That list is fairly business light but it looks like it could work. Post any goldfish results you record so we can optimize a new GSI list, if you are interested.
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After a bit of fishing with a couple different options, I decided Mox Opal isn't really good enough for me. The Legendary really does kill it. I Ended up playing a couple times with this list, and after only 2 fizzles, I got this...
Hand:
Summoner's Pact, Land Grant, Empty the Warrens, Culling the Weak,
Glimpse, Dark Rit, Memnite.
Land Grant(Bayou) -> Bayou, tap -> Dark Rit (BBB) -> Pact(Spirit Guide) (BBB) -> Glimpse (BBB) -> Memnite(Infernal Contract) (BBB) -> Culling the Weak (BBBBBB) -> Contract (BBB)
Draw: Walker, Walker, Glimpse, Glimpse (BBB)
Walker(Lotus Petal)(BBB) -> Petal, Sac (G BBB) -> Glimpse (BBB) -> Walker (Summoner's Pact, Culling the Weak)(BBB) -> Pact(Odious Trow) -> Trow(Land Grant, Shield Sphere) (BB) -> Culling (BBBBB) -> Shield Sphere(LED, Shield Sphere) -> Shield Sphere(Thopter, Belcher) (BBBBB) -> LED -> Thopter(Chrome Mox, Memnite) -> Mox, imprint Land Grant (BBBBB)->Glimpse #3 (BBBBB) -> Memnite(Thopter, Tendrils, Belcher) (BBBBB) -> Tendrils for 42.
That Empty the Warrens sat in my hand the entire game, as did the Belcher. I have high hopes for belcher, but i realized how little help Empty the Warren's was with no way of making red mana. If that was a tendrils in my hand, i would have won a lot earlier. After that, I revised my list...
-1 Empty the Warrens
-1 Lion's Eye Diamond
+2 Tendrils of Agony
Lions Eye Diamond isn't near as much help when you are only drawing a little at a time. It's still incredibly good, just not as good as in normal SI.
I will post some more fishing results in a bit...
EDIT: The only reason i run 3 Contracts and 1 Bargain is because that's what i have on hand =X It could obviously just as easily be 4 Contracts, i just only have 3 for some reason
Game 2
Hand: Trow, Shield Sphere, Memnite, Tendrils, Land Grant, Ornithopter, Glimpse
Land Grant -> Bayou, Tap -> Glimpse -> Thopter(Dark Ritual) -> Memnite(Spirit Guide) -> Shield Sphere(Spirit Guide) -> Remove Guide for Trow(Culling the Weak)
Turn 2: Draw Dark Ritual...
Turn 3 Draw Thopter...
Considered a Fizzle at that point...All i needed was some way of getting 1 black mana...Considering putting Mox Opal back in.
Bayou, Glimpse -> Memnite(Spirit Guide) -> Thopter(Petal) -> Walker(Land Grant) -> Petal, Sac -> Culling (BBBB) -> Land Grant (F2F) (BBBB) -> Tendrils for 16
Ended up fizzling after investing a lot of resources, so i just mini-tendrils'd, hoping to possibly live for a couple turns with 36 life, and hit them for 4 with my memnite or something, or draw another tendrils...
Turn 2 draw - Chrome Mox
Turn 3 draw - Diabolic Intent
I might be able to work with that...
Mox imprinting Spirit Guide, Diabolic intent for Glimpse.
Hope to hell i draw a creature next turn and can combo off into something.
Turn 4 draw - Tendrils
Yeah, pretty much a fizzle at this point, but it was so so close.
Hand: Glimpse, Land Grant, Petal, dark Rit, Thopter, Memnite, Memnite.
Land Grant(Bayou) -> Bayou -> Glimpse -> thopter(Belcher) -> Memnite(Petal) -> Memnite(LED) -> Petal -> Petal -> Crack both Petals (BB) -> Dark Rit (BBBB) -> Belcher -> LED -> Crack LED to Belcher for my whole deck
I keep thinking to myself (Man, if i draw a D4 off this thopter...) So i think i might add more D4s somewhere.
I have been getting pretty lucky on drawing the Glimpses, or drawing the Glimpses off D4s. Once you get 2-3 Glimpses online, you can basically chain creatures forever until you draw your deck and then tendrils. That happened on one of the runs with the first deck, but my 1 tendrils was the bottom card of my deck, with 2 cards left in my deck, and 3 glimpses online.
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Perhaps I'm playing incorrectly; So much of the deck is colorless that there are only so many cards in your deck that can be imprinted, and I find that there are a lot of times where I can't imprint Chrome Mox because I don't want to imprint my important spells. Many times, the second Chrome Mox is dead because I wouldn't even have a second colored card to imprint if I wanted to. The list also only plays one land, so any Land Grants I draw after my single Bayou is in play are cards that only make me shuffle my library if I decide to play them. Unless I'm missing something, the Belcher kill is already set up after Land Grant 1.
Yeah, that's something i have realized also. I'm thinking about replacing chrome mox with Mox Opal altogether. Though I have not had any problem running 1 land.
EDIT: Okay, i lied. I have now had multiple games where I would have easily had a turn 2 win if i had another land to land grant into. Also, i have also realized that more often than not, LED just sits there. Unless I have no cards in hand, or need a belcher activation, all it does is sit there as another artifact to count for Mox Opal. I'm leaving 2 in because of the two situations above, but I really need another Bayou in here.
Current List:
I think i'm on the right track. A lot of these goldfishes are going very well. Getting 2 Mox Opal's is really frustrating though. I came across a card that might help...Reprocess
I would have no idea where to fit it in, but once my Zeroes are on the board, they just sit there. Reprocess would be an awesome way of turning them into even more card draw, while also getting rid of Mox Opal, so you can play another. It could be a 4 mana D5 or D6 later on. I can't put them in in place of the D4s, because they are too good. I'm thinking of taking out the Summoner's Pact's altogether, but keeping the Spirit guides in. I would take the Trow out at that point, of course, because the only reason he was in was so i can have another cheap creature to draw off of glimpse with if i had a pact in my hand. That would give me 3 more spots, maybe for D4s or Reprocesses.
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while it's good to see you enjoy the deck (it is fun to pilot) could you spread some light as to where i may have misplayed in one of my examples? i'm aware that i could have tutored up a slithermuse once instead of a draw 4, but other than that, i think i went down every possible decision tree and found either fizzles or lethal storm in every one.
Plunge into Darkness I have always liked as a card. I've made a mental not to play around with it at some point.
@malcolmbw
I'm glad you are figuring the deck out. There are many lines of play you need to memorize to know whether or not to mulligan. The more you play the deck, the more familiar it becomes.
@jokulmorder
Don't play that list. It was an experimental list that I was testing. It didn't quite work out as well as the updated list with LG's and Belcher so I switched back. That list has a lot more time going off quickly.
Also, don't mulligan every hand that can't win turn 1.
So not this. You cannot learn the deck with this perspective. Re-read the primer.
Just looking at your hands...
Game 9
Not really. If you use Pact to find ESG, then you are limiting your Pact + LED --> Ewit line of play. What the D4 yielded would allow you to win on either case, but remember that you have Chrome Mox in hand, a perpetual resource. Pact puts you all in which isn't necessarily the right call. I'd probably be more conservative and play Petal, Dark Ritual, D4.
Game 8
This is a great hand. You have access to Xantid Swarm to protect your combo, and therefore Culling Fodder, as well as perpetual mana. Why can't this hand win? You play Xantid and pass (Chrome Mox if you are on the draw anticipating Daze). Then play your D4 on turn 2, protected, which will yield 1 more card than shown in your spoiler. If that doesn't work, pass the turn and win turn 3.
I think you are trying too hard to focus on winning on the first turn than just winning. The fact is that you are new to the deck. You will not be winning on the first turn consistently until you first learn how to win. Your current approach to the deck will probably just leave you frustrated. Focus on winning, then move on to the more skillful aspect of 'pushing the deck to its limits'.
Game 6
Another amazing hand. Double Chrome Mox is beast against control. And you have Xantid? Easily the best hand in the set as it can be explosive, recover from a fizz, and protect the combo.
Game 1
Another amazing hand. You have 2 lands, as well as Chrome Moxen and Xantid Swarm, great against control.
In short, pushing the deck to its limits is a skill acquired through many months of practice. I tried to make it clear in the primer that its far from automatic, and its one of the hardest decks to play in the whole format. Remember, the deck doesn't pull off turn 1 kills, the pilot does.
In other news, a guy on the source, Jodahae, brought a new creature to my attention that we should test:
Tukatongue Thallid
For G you get 2 creatures. This potentially supports a x2 Culling in the spell chain, as well Cabal Therapy MD or post-board. Not quite sure how to work Cabal Therapy into the list though if I'm usually cutting Summoner's Pact post-board.
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but yes, many of those hands were perfectly fine for a turn 2-3 win, i just disagree that the deck can have such a high win rate on turn 1 and not completely dominate the format (as having force of will and a blue card in hand should still work out to unfavorable chances for the opponent). there is pretty much nothing aggro can do other than potentially burn down the xantid swarms and hold onto Mindbreak Trap which means your only threats should be decks running an assortment of force of will, daze, and spell pierce/snare (which is still in your favor mathematically unless they're on the play). the only deck i can see that would consistently give you a hard time is a stax list running Sphere of Resistance with Leyline of the Void in the side and them aggressively mulliganing into it (all this is assuming you actually have a 60+% turn 1 winrate).
like i said, i think the deck is good and works fine, i just want to see some more evidence for that claimed win ratio.
Its not as unfavorable as you make it seem. Even if we had 100% turn 1 unprotected kills, we'd still get our first attempt stopped about 40% of the time. Thats not consistent enough to dominate the format.
We tend to beat control decks that don't back up their countermagic with some sort of hard lock. SI can rebuild into a game winning hand too quickly.
I could state all the evidence I want but thats probably not going to be good enough unless it can be replicated. Other people have done it, but it requires you to play the deck like its supposed to be played, which means win comfortably on turn 3/4 and then work your way up to turn 2, then turn 1, unless the win is obvious. Then you learn the intricate lines of play and become familiar with how far the deck can be pushed before you are no longer taking calculated risks.
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1 Dryad Arbor
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Land Grant
3 Cruel Bargain
2 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Goblin Charbelcher
I cut a Cruel Bargain because I hate drawing extra D4 cards off of my D4 spells when I'm trying to go off (and in part because I haven't got a fourth one at the moment). I'm loving how most of the cards in the deck can be played for no mana to increase your storm count, and the number of times I've naturally been able to play Infernal Tutor as Demonic Tutor without Lion's Eye Diamond is amazing.
Dryad Arbor is in the deck because I just want an excuse to play it--I haven't done any real testing against any opponents, so time will tell if I should play the second Bayou instead. Being able to use Land Grant as a tutor for Culling the Weak Fodder has been pretty cool, though. Cabal Therapy seems...much better than I've ever given it credit for. I really hate counterspells, so Duress is taking the spot that the 4th Bargain would occupy, and Cabal Therapy does have the issue of being a little iffy when you don't know your opponent's hand/your opponent hasn't played a card yet, so I cut one Therapy for the second Duress.
I'm also finding that in solitaire, I might end up playing so many D4 spells that I'm just dead to any burn spell. I know the point is to go off before your opponent has the resources to disrupt you, but I don't want to die because I let Zoo play one land and get Bolted. Has that been an issue with anyone? It's another reason I'm playing the Duress.
I sort of worry about how Land Grant plays as a card against control. I feel like it's probably not a good thing to let any opponent with any experience with combo know exactly what you can and can't do, because they would know the best time to disrupt you. Is there any way I should be specifically trying to play to deal with this? I was thinking that I could wait until the last moment to play Land Grant, after my hand was basically already on the table, but that seems silly--especially when I found that I'd keep drawing my Land off of D4 spells when I had Land Grant in hand.
I'm not sure about the Sideboard, but I don't think I like the whole "man-plan." I sort of want to directly port the current sideboard from the Vacrix's Pact list, but I don't know how well that would work out yet. Does my deck look like it has enough green to reasonably support Carpet of Flowers and Autumn's Veil/Xantid Swarm? (I know I want to play one or the other because I need to protect the combo, but I really want to play Autumn's Veil because it's a green counterspell/chant.) If it can be done, I'd play some Combination of Carpet of Flowers, Autumn's Veil/Xantid Swarm, another Duress, Artifact/Enchantment Removal, and some sort of secondary win condition. More Charbelchers makes complete sense to me now, along with the Tombs, because I finally understand the concept of having resources that carry over to your next attempt to combo out if you get disrupted (it's not something you think about if you don't play against opponents at all). You want the deck to play less spells that are a "one and done" sort of deal--you can activate Charbelcher multiple times if it resolves, and all. The Tombs seem less good for me though, other than being a land, since Urami would be the only creature worth removing in my deck, and the one time I actually tried the deck out against a friend, he had nothing to side his removal out for so Urami got hit with Swords every time he didn't die to EE--and EE for 0 wrecks the guy/this deck pretty hard at times.
I was considering searching for some kind of pump spell/enchantment that could make my fodder creatures into a viable threat so you could win that way, but I'm not sure such a card exists that would be big enough to win fights with Tarmogoyf, fast enough because of blockers, and/or isn't too fragile to rely on (One removal spell would set you back pretty far if you spent all that time making your creature into a threat). I'm still looking though.
Any feedback is certainly appreciated. I'm sure I'm not 100% with this deck, as I have only really been working with it for a few weeks, and I have spent all of that time playing solitaire in my room, so there could be something I'm just completely missing.
Edit: So my sideboard right now is 1 Bayou, 2 Tomb of Urami, 2 Goblin Charbelcher, 1 Duress, 1 Autumn's Veil, 4 Carpet of Flowers, 4 Xantid Swarm. Against any Deck with Islands in it, I side all of it in and take out 4 Phyrexian Walker, 4 Shield Sphere, 4 Culling the Weak, 2 Ill-Gotten Gains, and 1 Tendrils of Agony.
10 protection spells is enough, isn't it? 3 Duress, 3 Cabal Therapy, 4 Xantid Swarm seems like a lot, already. Swarm got the nod over Autumn's Veil because it sacrifices to Cabal Therapy, but I'm still playing around to see if which is actually better for me. I'm only playing the one Autumn's Veil because I can't think of any other spells to put in the spot. I think I'd want it to be a win condition of some sort, but nothing good comes to mind.
So...Do I need to side for any decks other than decks with counters? I can't imagine that trying to fight through Trinisphere or Chalice of the Void is any fun.
I played the list from the O.P with the same board I've been testing (with Tomb not Omnath).
Match 1
Bye
1-0
Match 2
Bye
I know this isn't supposed to happen. The guy running the program that pairs everyone even tried to repair and it gave me the bye again so we just kept the same pairings.
2-0
Match 3: Faeries UGW
Game 1: I lead with IT--> Slithermuse with B floating, draw 7, into a lethal Tendrils.
Game 2: I lead with Tomb of Urami, Duress. He plays Spell Pierce. Next turn I play Duress, he counters with Spellstutter Sprite. Then I lay down Chrome Mox on green, and Chrome Mox on black, and try to play Belcher. He plays FoW. Next turn I play Carpet of Flowers. Then, I use mana from Carpet 2nd mainphase to crack Tomb of Urami. My Urami token allows me to comfortably set up, protecting me as a wall against his small, equipment-less Faeries. I’m at 4 life and he’s a few guys short of racing me. 3 turns later or so, I have 3 Carpets of Flowers out. I use 2 of them to add 4 mana to my mana pool, and play a D4, which gets FoWed. I play another, to which he has no answer. I play another Carpet of Flowers, pass to my 2nd mainphase, use the other 2 Carpets to add enough mana to play Belcher and activate for the win.
3-0
Match 4: Weird BG ☺☺☺☺
Game 1: He leads with Polluted Delta. I think he might be playing blue. I play Land Grant for Bayou, Dark Ritual, Cruel Bargain. I start chaining some D4’s together until I have only B floating. I can try for Belcher this turn but I would have to use Summoner’s Pact. I have plenty of resources so I decide to play it safe. I use the remaining mana to play Odious Trow (so basically I trolled that whole turn for like 15 minute). Then I use Culling the Weak to play and activate Belcher on my next turn.
Game 2: He leads with Cabal Therapy on Belcher. He gets it and I had a lethal Belcher kill in my hand. A few turns later he plays Hymn and gets ToA and IT out of my hand. He then extirpates away my Belchers. I had played Odious Trow and Dryad Arbor already which beat him down to 16 until he play Damnation. I know he is extremely slow so I wait until I have 8 cards, and then go off with a lot of mana, and Pact-->Eternal Witness-->IT-->IT-->Tendrils
4-0
Overall, I haven't really decided if my night was satisfying. I biked something like 10 miles to play in this FNM and I only got to play twice. The SB plan worked well, though I must say Faeries have a far from intimidating clock.
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I'm still interested in playing the Pact list (mostly because it's hilarious)...I'm still trying to figure it out a little bit. And I've no idea how you play the deck against control. Any advice? And how is the DSI deck coming along? What snags are you running into?
Against control you have a few options, each of which depend on your opening 7. You can go balls to the wall and try to win turn one with IT if that is your opening hand. The other option is to just go for your first draw 4 and don't go all into that D4 meaning hold your Pacts and LEDs in hand so that you aren't using too many resources. Trading Blue card + FoW for something like Land Grant + Dark Ritual + Cruel Bargain isn't actually that bad, especially if you are using a staying mana source like Chrome Mox, meaning you are essentially trading 2 cards for 2 cards. Also, don't try to go off if you can wait and play around Daze.
Sometimes you will just win game 1 because your opponent isn't protected with FoW. In game 2/3 you have 15 cards to board in. The board I've been using has been working well so far.
As for DSI, I haven't really been working on it to tell the truth. I've been busy optimizing the PSI sideboard.
U Solidarity U
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Also has anyone tried to make a video yet? Vacrix, since you clearly know the deck the best would you possibly be able to make some sort of video tutorial? I LOVE the concept you have and truly want to learn how to pilot it better and justify actually getting the cards together and sleeving it up, just need to see the percentages to convince me its worth it =D. Thanks a ton for the deck and guidance man!
PS- really was a great OP!
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the Plane for this sig
Now Playing:
EDH:
Derevi, Enchantress
5C Planeswalkers (Child of Alara)
Sharuum
Narset, Enlightened Master
Ezuri Elves
The Mimeoplasm
The original list didn't work out as I anticipated. It was pretty inconsistent. Try the updated list, the same as the list I used for sample hands. There are many ways to create intricate lines of play, most of which involve adapting the maindeck to include different Summoner's Pact targets. IT lines of play are numerous just because sometimes you have the opportunity to double up on a specific line of play, like double Culling the Weak, or double Cabal Ritual, or even double Belcher if you are trying to set up that line of play.
Also, when you see the obvious line of play, look for another option if that option improves your chances against specific hate. If you expect Cannonist or Teeg, you might want to drop Belcher now and wait to draw the resources to activate it. If you expect Daze, try to save mana to pay the 1. If you expect FoW, try not to go all in, namely with LEDs or Pacts.
I'm still getting around to doing a video. Maybe I can do that this weekend..
U Solidarity U
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Thanks to DNC at Heroes of the Plane for this sig
Now Playing:
EDH:
Derevi, Enchantress
5C Planeswalkers (Child of Alara)
Sharuum
Narset, Enlightened Master
Ezuri Elves
The Mimeoplasm
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Slithermuse
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
1 Odious Trow
1 Wild Cantor
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Land Grant
3 Manamorphose
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Eternal Witness
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Duress
2 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Empty the Warrens
I didn't take detailed notes, but here's a report based off of what I do remember:
Round 1 (Eva Green)
This was overall a crappy round. I mulliganned a lot, into bad hands, and then fizzled repeatedly. I kept at least one hand that I should not have. My opponent also drew poorly, but was able to eventually capitalize on my fizzles.
0-2, 0-1
Round 2 (TES)
There are a lot of TES players at my venue, which I found a bit surprising. I see tendrils when he's shuffling and put him correctly on TES. I don't remember who won the roll, only that I attempted to combo on around turn two and got chanted after around six spells (luckily I hadn't cast the pact I was holding). My opponent was unable to go off though, and I went off again two turns later and killed with a lethal Belcher activation. Game two I think my opponent kept a turn-2 kill on the play, but I had lethal Tendrils turn one on the draw.
2-0, 1-1
Round 3 (Countertop Painter)
Not knowing what he was playing, I choose to draw and he lays a Scalding Tarn. I guess Dreadstill and decide I need to combo off immediately. My hand was ridiculous - a couple Chrome Mox, rituals, and draw spells. My first Mox meets Daze, but my second resolves followed by a long spell chain. He doesn't have Force, and I IT->Tendrils off of LED. I still am not entirely sure what he's playing, and board something like this:
-4 Pact, -2 Tendrils, -1 Culling, -1 Arbor, -3 Manamorphose, -1 Eternal Witness, -1 Slithermuse, -2 other random cards
+Entire board
This game two is possibly the most epic thing I have ever experienced playing magic. Vacrix, I didn't believe you when you stated how insane the all protection/belcher board was against control. I don't remember exactly what happened, other than this was a very long game and I managed to eventually force a lethal Belcher through something like 3 Force, 2 Daze, and an active Counterbalance/Top (resolving one Carpet of Flowers helped greatly, as he countered all my other protection). I killed with Painter's Servant in play and Grindstone in my opponent's hand (he had just fetched it with Trinket Mage).
2-0, 2-1
Round 4 (TES)
Another TES matchup. I don't remember too much of game 1 other than that I won the roll and elected to draw knowing what my opponent was playing. He looked at me like I was an idiot and asked "seriously?" I nodded and then killed him turn 1 on the draw. I wish I had a camera to record the dumbfounded expression this caused. Anyways, game two I mulliganned a couple times and then got Duressed. I was eventually able to spit out a Mini-Tendrils which prevented my opponent from using Ad Nauseam, but was unable to rebuild before he could set up a lethal IGG Loop. Game three I was hit by more discard, but managed to resolve a Belcher and pass the turn. Apparently he had Wish in his hand to go for Shattering Spree, but failed to do so and I activated Belcher with both lands left in my deck the following turn (I was pretty sure he was going to combo off). I lucksacked and didn't hit either land.
2-1, 3-1
I made top eight, but lost to an Aggro-Loam player who mulled hard for Chalice as he knew what I was playing. My hands weren't quite fast enough to kill turn one, and I drew too many zero-cost sources in both games to be able to play around Chalice at zero. I also made a couple of glaring play errors like not dropping some artifact mana when I had the chance game one (he immediately topdecked chalice). In retrospect I could have boarded in more Belchers and Duress, not sure if that would be the right call. The sideboard I used was perfect against blue, but is there a simple way to prepare against Aggro Loam and Stompy Decks?
Overall I was impressed with the deck, it just had some issues in producing consistently good hands. However, I'm a horrible pilot so a lot of the losses were due to me as well.
UBRGW T.E.S.
UUUSpiral Tide
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
EDH:
UB Oona, Queen of the Fae
Combo is a part of magic. If you cant deal with combo then your not a magic player.
Against Aggro loam, you should board in your Belchers. Usually they will mulligan aggressively for a lock piece so opening hands with Land Grant, ESG, and Manamorphose are strong hands as they play around both Chalice at 0 and 1. Personally, I would also board in Tomb of Urami just because their clock is painfully slow, and having more initial black sources is an asset especially if all your 0 mana sources get shut down. If you want in game 3, you can also board in Duresses for safe measure, especially if they are mulliganing down to 4. You called it right though in hindsight so its just a learning experience that you can capitalize on. I've made the same mistakes before against Stompy. Honestly when you have to worry about lock pieces, just go for the Belcher kill. Don't even bother with Tendrils unless it falls into your lap.
Nice job against Countertop Painter by the way. For your second tournament, I wouldn't expect you to go 2-0 against what is easily your hardest matchup. Yes the board is bat☺☺☺☺ insane against U.dec, and its pretty easy to underestimate. The strength really is that instead of landing 1 threat (D4), you can go for 2, anticipating your opponent's response. From those 2 you just keep piling on resources until you can explode. Was EtW and the 4th Duress any better than Tombs? I know most people probably aren't comfortable boarding in more lands with Belchers but Tomb is a game winning threat against Merfolk and Stompy, as well as more initial black sources.
And for the record, I have epic games like the one you describe all the time, one of reasons I love to play this deck.
By the way, you mentioned that you had some issues producing consistency. The thing is you cut 2 Business spells for 2 Manamorphose. This makes your mana base more flexible but you will probably find yourself lacking business spells in your spell chains.
U Solidarity U
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
So a simple answer is I don't prepare for it, but if you want to thats entirely up to you.
U Solidarity U
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
I’ll bring in the Belcher plan against Loam in the future (I think there’s only one guy who plays it in my meta, but he’s good so I’ll probably meet him in T8 a lot). Thankfully I haven’t seen any Stompy or Staxx decks – Trinisphere gives me nightmares. Duress I even thought about before game two of that match, but I decided against it in the vain hope I could get a T1 kill (bad move).
I boarded ETW against U only – it took the place of another Belcher as a concession to Leyline of Sanctity, as I wasn’t sure if anyone played it in my meta. I didn’t see any Leylines that day though, so I’m not sure if I’ll keep it in. I’m not sure I want to board tombs right now just because I ended up going all-in for Belcher a couple of times with one or both lands left in my deck. I had the luck with me on those, but I don’t want to make the probability even worse. It would help a lot against certain U matchups though. Also, having 4 Duress was both good against U and gives me some insurance against agro decks that mull aggressively for Mindbreak Trap (and with there being 3 or 4 TES players in my meta, I expect a lot of Storm hate).
Cutting two business spells was a decision that I made after noticing that I fizzled a lot more due to business overload than I did to not drawing enough, but I’m not sure if it’s the right call especially as all my testing was done in goldfishing (no access to MWS where I am right now). Recently I cut one manamorphose for an IGG, I think I’ll test either that or a second Belcher for a while. I might also put another Belcher in place of the ETW in the board.
Unfortunately, I’m not going to be able to attend any tournaments until October as I am out of the country in an area where there’s no MTG.
UBRGW T.E.S.
UUUSpiral Tide
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
EDH:
UB Oona, Queen of the Fae
Combo is a part of magic. If you cant deal with combo then your not a magic player.
His toughness isn't as high, but he's got power. So, if nothing, you can cast him and he can go on the offensive if you have nothing better to do.
I like the card. The main reason I'm thinking about it is that the deck is supposed to destroy aggro anyway, so playing 0 mana guys as blockers seems silly. So, in theory, I'd cut Phyrexian Walker for this guy because Shield Sphere is still gigantic if it comes down to blocking. The other thing I was thinking about was that the worst matchups as I have seen and heard are matches with Counterspells + Bears, and I suppose the Walker blocks Meddling Mage/Mishra's Factory a hell of a lot better.
Another thing is that the deck is supposed to be so fast that I could imagine any damage this guy deals being marginal. Then again...one fetchland activation + 1 attack step from Memnite means you need to cast one less spell to kill with Tendrils, so it could be good.
Edit: Mox Opal. Could it have a place here? I'm a bit skeptical because it's legendary, but I haven't tried it out yet. I was looking on the Source and BC made a post about a theoretical 1-land list that I find very interesting--I'm about to start testing it. No matter how many times I try playing the Pact list, it hasn't been working for me, so I'm definitely all for working on a list that uses 0 mana guys.
Standard: B/x Devotion
Modern: Death & Taxes
Top 8 - TCGPlayer Qualifier 7/23/11
Top 4 - Free $500 FNM 10/2/12
Top 8 - Star City Games OT 4/20/13
Top 8 - Star City Games Super IQ 5/25/13
Top 8 - TCGPlayer 1k 10/5/13
Top 16 - TCGPlayer Diamond 5k 4/5/14
For reference:
I found this theoretical deck at The Source, in a post by BC.
Mox Opal 0
Legendary Artifact
Metalcraft -t: Add 1 mana of any color to your mana pool. Activate this ability only if you control three or more artifacts.add one mana of any color if you control 3 or more artifacts.
1 Bayou
4 Mox Opal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin Charbelcher
2 Slithermuse
Now then...I'll admit that I'm not the best player of the deck, so I was pretty frustrated at times when I first started testing this out. However, I just had a string of turn one kills in my last few games of solitaire, one even off of a mulligan to four, so I can say that I've never been as confident with this kind of deck as I was when I was trying this deck out.
The biggest problem I'd keep having is that the deck doesn't seem to want to draw multiples of anything. Drawing more than one Mox Opal is horrible, drawing more than one Chrome Mox is horrible, drawing more than one Land Grant is horrible (albeit less so than the first two because they don't imprint to Chrome Mox), and you can only play four "Draw 4" Spells before you literally die. I feel like I want to play one less Opal and one less Cruel Bargain, though I don't know what I'd put in over them. I've found that I have a love affair with Cabal Therapy, so if I cut anything in this deck, it might be Therapies that I put in.
I've very rarely had any issues with having the artifacts in play to make Mox Opal work. Slithermuse is also the king of kings in this deck--The Original poster remarked that it was playable due to Mox Opal as a blue source, but I haven't cast the Muse once off of Opal because I often have to tap the Opal for black mana to start my chains before I sacrifice a creature/Lotus Petal/Lion's Eye Diamond which would've tapped for blue anyway.
In hindsight, it should be noted that I probably fizzled a lot of games because I forgot about the Empty the Warrens route in the deck a few times. I'm loving that you have so many angles of attack with the deck--I've been trying to win via Tendrils most of the time, unless the Charbelcher kill presents itself, and very frequently I'm noting that I could have at any time just stopped trying to push the deck and opted to just play Empty the Warrens instead.
I've only every really played Ill-Gotten Gains twice, and I once only did it to reuse my Lotus Petal to evoke Slithermuse, so I'm not sure how effective it really is here, since it usually just sat in my hand as the card I couldn't cast that stopped me from casting a Hellbent tutor.
As a sidenote, would it be possible to go landless with this deck? What could you put in the place of the land grants?
I'm also looking forward to any Glimpse lists anyone ends up making with the possibility of 16 free artifact guys.
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Shield Sphere
4 Phyrexian Walker
2 Frogmite
Accel
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
2 Mox Opal
3 Chrome Mox
3 Land Grant
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Infernal Contract
2 Diabolic Intent
Kill
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Bayou
Something like that seems possible. Completely speculative, I didn't really test this out, but I probably will. It seems fun. Why doesn't the Glimpse list on the front play 4 Glimpses? Also, originally when i thought up this list it had Summoners Pact and Elvish Spirit Guide in it, but i think Mox Opal helps us with the color fixing even more than it did before, also Chrome Mox imprinting Land Grant is actually useful in this list.
Standard: B/x Devotion
Modern: Death & Taxes
Top 8 - TCGPlayer Qualifier 7/23/11
Top 4 - Free $500 FNM 10/2/12
Top 8 - Star City Games OT 4/20/13
Top 8 - Star City Games Super IQ 5/25/13
Top 8 - TCGPlayer 1k 10/5/13
Top 16 - TCGPlayer Diamond 5k 4/5/14
I disagree. Double Chrome Mox is great against control. Double Land Grant sets up the Belcher kill nicely. Mox Opal is the only thing you really don't want to see in multiples.
You can't really play landless SI. You could try now that we have access to Mox Opal.. and I guess you could play ESG's and SSG's + Manamorphose or something, but I don't know how consistent that mana base would be.
Glimpse lists look underwhelming at the moment. We are working on a non-SI Glimpse/Retract list on the StormBoards, but its nothing to shake a stick at just yet.
@7H0R
That list is fairly business light but it looks like it could work. Post any goldfish results you record so we can optimize a new GSI list, if you are interested.
U Solidarity U
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
4 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Memnite
4 Shield Sphere
Business
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
3 Infernal Contract
1 Cruel Bargain
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Land Grant
4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Odious Trow
1 Bayou
Hand:
Summoner's Pact, Land Grant, Empty the Warrens, Culling the Weak,
Glimpse, Dark Rit, Memnite.
Land Grant(Bayou) -> Bayou, tap -> Dark Rit (BBB) -> Pact(Spirit Guide) (BBB) -> Glimpse (BBB) -> Memnite(Infernal Contract) (BBB) -> Culling the Weak (BBBBBB) -> Contract (BBB)
Draw: Walker, Walker, Glimpse, Glimpse (BBB)
Walker(Lotus Petal)(BBB) -> Petal, Sac (G BBB) -> Glimpse (BBB) -> Walker (Summoner's Pact, Culling the Weak)(BBB) -> Pact(Odious Trow) -> Trow(Land Grant, Shield Sphere) (BB) -> Culling (BBBBB) -> Shield Sphere(LED, Shield Sphere) -> Shield Sphere(Thopter, Belcher) (BBBBB) -> LED -> Thopter(Chrome Mox, Memnite) -> Mox, imprint Land Grant (BBBBB)->Glimpse #3 (BBBBB) -> Memnite(Thopter, Tendrils, Belcher) (BBBBB) -> Tendrils for 42.
That Empty the Warrens sat in my hand the entire game, as did the Belcher. I have high hopes for belcher, but i realized how little help Empty the Warren's was with no way of making red mana. If that was a tendrils in my hand, i would have won a lot earlier. After that, I revised my list...
4 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Memnite
4 Shield Sphere
Business
1 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Tendrils of Agony
3 Infernal Contract
1 Cruel Bargain
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Chrome Mox
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Land Grant
4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Odious Trow
1 Bayou
-1 Empty the Warrens
-1 Lion's Eye Diamond
+2 Tendrils of Agony
Lions Eye Diamond isn't near as much help when you are only drawing a little at a time. It's still incredibly good, just not as good as in normal SI.
I will post some more fishing results in a bit...
EDIT: The only reason i run 3 Contracts and 1 Bargain is because that's what i have on hand =X It could obviously just as easily be 4 Contracts, i just only have 3 for some reason
Game 2
Hand: Trow, Shield Sphere, Memnite, Tendrils, Land Grant, Ornithopter, Glimpse
Land Grant -> Bayou, Tap -> Glimpse -> Thopter(Dark Ritual) -> Memnite(Spirit Guide) -> Shield Sphere(Spirit Guide) -> Remove Guide for Trow(Culling the Weak)
Turn 2: Draw Dark Ritual...
Turn 3 Draw Thopter...
Considered a Fizzle at that point...All i needed was some way of getting 1 black mana...Considering putting Mox Opal back in.
Game 3
Hand: Thopter, Thopter, Walker, Shield Sphere, Chrome Mox, Glimpse, Spirit Guide.
Spirit Guide -> Glimpse -> Thopter(Memnite) -> Thopter(Culling) -> Memnite(Summoner's Pact) -> Walker(Lotus Petal) -> Shield Sphere(LED) -> Petal -> Summoner's Pact(Trow) -> Crack Petal, Culling -> Trow(Land Grant) ->Fizzle
This round made me realize that those Diabolic Intents are really needed...Put them in in place of Summoner's Pacts
4 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Memnite
4 Shield Sphere
Business
1 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Tendrils of Agony
3 Infernal Contract
1 Cruel Bargain
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Chrome Mox
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Land Grant
4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
2 Summoner's Pact
2 Diabolic Intent
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Odious Trow
1 Bayou
Game 4
Hand: Glimpse, Bayou, Memnite, Thopter, Walker, Tendrils, Culling.
Bayou, Glimpse -> Memnite(Spirit Guide) -> Thopter(Petal) -> Walker(Land Grant) -> Petal, Sac -> Culling (BBBB) -> Land Grant (F2F) (BBBB) -> Tendrils for 16
Ended up fizzling after investing a lot of resources, so i just mini-tendrils'd, hoping to possibly live for a couple turns with 36 life, and hit them for 4 with my memnite or something, or draw another tendrils...
Turn 2 draw - Chrome Mox
Turn 3 draw - Diabolic Intent
I might be able to work with that...
Mox imprinting Spirit Guide, Diabolic intent for Glimpse.
Hope to hell i draw a creature next turn and can combo off into something.
Turn 4 draw - Tendrils
Yeah, pretty much a fizzle at this point, but it was so so close.
Game 5
Hand: Glimpse, Spirit Guide, Memnite, Memnite, Culling, Diabolic Intent, Dark Rit.
Spirit Guide -> Glimpse -> Memnite(Cruel Bargain) -> Memnite(Tendrils)
Nothing....
Game 6
Hand: Glimpse, Land Grant, Petal, dark Rit, Thopter, Memnite, Memnite.
Land Grant(Bayou) -> Bayou -> Glimpse -> thopter(Belcher) -> Memnite(Petal) -> Memnite(LED) -> Petal -> Petal -> Crack both Petals (BB) -> Dark Rit (BBBB) -> Belcher -> LED -> Crack LED to Belcher for my whole deck
I keep thinking to myself (Man, if i draw a D4 off this thopter...) So i think i might add more D4s somewhere.
I have been getting pretty lucky on drawing the Glimpses, or drawing the Glimpses off D4s. Once you get 2-3 Glimpses online, you can basically chain creatures forever until you draw your deck and then tendrils. That happened on one of the runs with the first deck, but my 1 tendrils was the bottom card of my deck, with 2 cards left in my deck, and 3 glimpses online.
Standard: B/x Devotion
Modern: Death & Taxes
Top 8 - TCGPlayer Qualifier 7/23/11
Top 4 - Free $500 FNM 10/2/12
Top 8 - Star City Games OT 4/20/13
Top 8 - Star City Games Super IQ 5/25/13
Top 8 - TCGPlayer 1k 10/5/13
Top 16 - TCGPlayer Diamond 5k 4/5/14
EDIT: Okay, i lied. I have now had multiple games where I would have easily had a turn 2 win if i had another land to land grant into. Also, i have also realized that more often than not, LED just sits there. Unless I have no cards in hand, or need a belcher activation, all it does is sit there as another artifact to count for Mox Opal. I'm leaving 2 in because of the two situations above, but I really need another Bayou in here.
Current List:
4 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Memnite
4 Shield Sphere
Business
1 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Tendrils of Agony
3 Infernal Contract
1 Cruel Bargain
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Mox Opal
2 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Land Grant
4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
2 Summoner's Pact
2 Diabolic Intent
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Odious Trow
2 Bayou
I think i'm on the right track. A lot of these goldfishes are going very well. Getting 2 Mox Opal's is really frustrating though. I came across a card that might help...Reprocess
I would have no idea where to fit it in, but once my Zeroes are on the board, they just sit there. Reprocess would be an awesome way of turning them into even more card draw, while also getting rid of Mox Opal, so you can play another. It could be a 4 mana D5 or D6 later on. I can't put them in in place of the D4s, because they are too good. I'm thinking of taking out the Summoner's Pact's altogether, but keeping the Spirit guides in. I would take the Trow out at that point, of course, because the only reason he was in was so i can have another cheap creature to draw off of glimpse with if i had a pact in my hand. That would give me 3 more spots, maybe for D4s or Reprocesses.
Standard: B/x Devotion
Modern: Death & Taxes
Top 8 - TCGPlayer Qualifier 7/23/11
Top 4 - Free $500 FNM 10/2/12
Top 8 - Star City Games OT 4/20/13
Top 8 - Star City Games Super IQ 5/25/13
Top 8 - TCGPlayer 1k 10/5/13
Top 16 - TCGPlayer Diamond 5k 4/5/14