I have a question. What's protecting the pact list from a Mindbreak Trap? When you go all out and use the only tendrils in your deck to kill your opponent, you get pacted, and then game 2? Is that an acceptable strategy for the pact list?
I have never seen anyone use a mindbreak trap in their maindeck. Ever. That card, game 2 at least they board them in, should be handled quite handily by xantid swarm or you can put some duress/thoughtseize in the board. I know autumn's veil doesn't solve it. But really mindbreak trap doesn't invalidate PSI or any real storm combo deck for that matter because we go off with protection.
On pain's reward. If it were less than 3 mana it would be a MAYBE card. At 3 mana you're better off just playing cruel bargain/infernal contract. After all, if you get outbid on life because you already played a draw 4 you are hurting since they just drew 4 and maybe a FoW or some countermagic and you just wasted 3 mana. It really isn't worth it in any SI list.
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I have also been burned a lot by intent, culling and extra fetchlands. I think instead of fetches the PSI list should run 4x land grant. At worst, if you have one LG and a tutor in hand and played your land for the turn, you can just search and declare fail to find with the LG. This way you can get free hellbent. LG also adds to storm count while fetches don't.
About the culling and intent, I am not sure as to what we should do. The green kobold (Skyshroud cutter) helps a bit. But still, there must be a more consistent way of doing this.
One more thing, I hate having to mulligan hands like these: LED, Bargain, Tendrils, bayou, Dark Ritual, Pact, LED. It would be perfectly feasible if there was more than one copy of tendrils in the deck. Yes, Witness helps but casting witness is usually not too easy.
Also, Slithermuse is hard to evoke too. The only thing that helps is petal, since cracking led for UUU is kinda risky.
I've played for about 4 hours with the pact list and found that with the following changes the deck runs a bit smoother
-4 Catacombs
-1 Swarm
+4 Grant
+1 Trow
Not being able to find trow with pact lost me the game twice before I put it in.
Land Grant just seems much better than Catacombs too
Likewise for me; I cut all the verdant catacombs and am playing with 2 lands, dryad arbor and a bayou. I simply cut all four catacombs and added in 4 land grants. I really like land grant, one for raising storm and for imprinting on chrome mox. I run 3 xantid in my PSI/landgrant SI list along with 1 wild cantor instead of odious trow and a singleton skyshroud cutter as a green kobold. I also run a singleton charbelcher since 2 lands and belcher as a 1 of is pretty damn good.
Getting blue mana for evoking slithermuse has never been a problem for me. Cracking LED for blue mana to set up slithermuse off of a tutor effect is usually how it is done, or else I use a petal but LED is what puts every combo deck over the edge IMO because tutor's + LED = brokenness. You get +1 mana and any card in your deck when you do that.
Running more than one tendrils in PSI is insane and can mess with consistency. Like I said, if you run 2 land and 4 land grants, run a singleton goblin charbelcher as an alternate win con. The card is amazing in PSI with land grants.
Also, if you get a hand with tendrils and LED in it, you can ALWAYS mulligan. Like Vacrix has said, SI can mulligan better than any deck in the format. You can win with 4 cards in hand on the first turn. You can easily go from 7 cards to 6 cards and not miss a beat when comboing off because of the decks engine cards. Learning to mulligan with SI will make the deck a whole lot better.
EDIT: In replying to your post Ghekon, no there is no other SI list that is LEDless other than QSI. And counterbalance is ALWAYS going to be combo's nightmare MU, you can't do much in that MU when they set up countertop lock other than stare down at that goyf beating your face in. If you want a deck that crushes countertop, play Zoo/merfolk/any aggro deck in the format because by turn 3 you can be bashing face with 6 goblins via lackey into siege-gang into 3rd turn warchief. Solutions in QSI for counterbalance would be 4 duress, 4 thoughtseize, and 4 cabal therapy to make them discard counterbalance before they play it and if they hide it with brainstorm comboing out ASAP. But really, QSI is hard to play and if you aren't used to it it can crap out on you. As for fizzling, you are probably playing the deck wrong because when you end of their turn meditate you can have them counter it and you go off next turn or they get another turn and then you combo out with 11 cards in hand because you most likely can combo out with 1/6th of your deck in your grip. It can go off turn 1 but usually doesn't because it prefers to set up for a turn or 2 before blasting open the combo.
Now here we have a problem. We can't get rid of both lands in this hand, so we can't tutor for tendrils. So this is basically a blowout. We can wait till next turn but we are at 2 life and thus at risk of being killed. If all goes well:
Play arbor
Turn 2: Draw intent
bayou, grant, ESG (G), tap bayou and arbor (GGB), play xantid, sac for intent, fetch tenrdils.
Aaaand pretty much fizzle and get killed by your opponent next turn.
----------------------
What usually happens with good hands is, everything is set, but I'm 1 mana short of a tendrils. Or 1 cards too many in hand for tutor with 6 mana in pool and a nice storm count. Or 1 creature too short for intent. These are indeed frustrating situations. I believe the 'bad hand' and the 'almost there' are the key problems of this deck that we must address.
Either you get another D4 or you lower the the storm count necessary for a lethal tendrils. Sounds like it could be a pretty sweet deal.
Nope. It might be cool as the first D4 you play, but your opponent can just pay 11 life the 2nd time and you just wasted X cards to do nothing. Rarely will you be able to make the play Pain's Reward + Tendrils.
I've played for about 4 hours with the pact list and found that with the following changes the deck runs a bit smoother
-4 Catacombs
-1 Swarm
+4 Grant
+1 Trow
Not being able to find trow with pact lost me the game twice before I put it in.
Land Grant just seems much better than Catacombs too
I dropped this build entirely. My old build with Belcher is much stronger, even against control. I'll post my updated list a little later.
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One thing that I still can't figure out after playing like 200 hands is situations like these:
5 cards in graveyard, 3 Black Mana, do you play Cabal Ritual before or after a Draw 4?
If you play it before you can play any Dark Rituals/Cullings etc you draw into. If you play it after and you draw into the means to do so you pretty much just win. Hurts my brain.
Another toughie is something like this:
LED in play, 4 Black/1 Green left with a Draw 4 on the stack, what do you crack LED for?
Blue let's you play Slithermuse should you draw it, Green E-Witness, and I don't think you run out of black in that situation, (but you might). Most people would say it doesn't matter, but keep in mind that if you draw one of your one ofs you probably just win.
One more simple one I have trouble with:
LED in play, 4 Black mana, Pact/Mox/Draw 4 in hand. Storm 3 Do you mox pact or do you pact for a creature to mox for more storm. If you mox a creature you're all in, but have +1 Storm. Also what creature do you mox? The obvious answer is Trow, but several times in this exact stuation or very close to it, ive needed to Pact for Trow again and lost because of it.
Well you could play it before... it really depends on a lot of things. First, what did already cast, whats in hand, and what are you playing against? If the worst comes to worst, you don't have mana to cast something, you will probably have at least one staying mana source post-D4. This increases your chances of going off a second time, especially if you already have 6 cards in the grave. Against aggro, I'd probably hold it in hand. Against, control, I'd probably go for the throat before he can fill his hand up with protection. It really does hurt your brain though, I must say. Other factors include, how many initial mana sources have already been played. If you only played Chrome Mox, and attempted the ritual (countered) for a few turns, then the chances of you drawing more initial mana is higher than not. In that case, it might be a better idea to hold Crit in hand because you will be able to play it post-D4. The other possibility might be the case. You might need B floating for a post-D4 ritual. In that sense, what have you already played and what do you have in hand. Those factors contribute toward the decision.
With the LED situation, I'd probably just go with BBB. Its a safe choice and you can be on being able to use it. The deck is so chalk full of green sources that your chances of drawing one are pretty high for the Ewit line of play. I wouldn't bother breaking it for GGG, or even UUU in the case of Slithermuse. Now, if I were playing BW, then RRR is also an option, but it depends on the number of BW already cast, which is likely 0 if you are making this line of play.
The last one, it all depends on what you've played. Keep in mind that this deck is about calculation. You have to guage what is likely to be your top4 based upon what has been played, and what is in your hand. Looking at it in a vacuum for a quick solution doesn't really work. In general though, the deck has a pretty easy time getting to a high storm count. Try to keep the spell chain going, don't worry about hitting 10. That will happen by itself if you make good play decisions. If you expect Culling off the top because you haven't seen any yet after like 2 D4's, hell go for it. I wouldn't compromise mana floating though for the sake of storm unless I was sure of a few things first.
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So my latest changes from the PSI list are:
-1 Diabolic Intent
+1 Charbelcher
And my sideboard is:
4 Autumn's Veil
4 Duress
4 Carpet of Flowers
3 Nature's Claim (Which I might actually move to 4, because it's so bomb, as the most popular sideboard cards are Leyline of Sanctity/Ethersworn Canonist and Mindbreak Trap/Gaddock Teeg are unpopular. Lot of white/red around here)
How many creatures do you run in your PSI list? Cabal Therapy might be a stronger choice than Duress in the board. Otherwise, I've been meaning to test a Duress/Veil configuration. How is it working out for you?
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It's been working pretty well. I like Duress a lot because it stops Mindbreak Trap and Orim's Chant, basically what Nature's Claim doesn't, but Veil has been a little lackluster. I might just change it to Pact of Negation. I'm not sure why more people don't SB that card anyway as most of the time you play Autumn's Veil you're combing anyway, especially in a deck that runs 4 Pacts anyway.
Yes you can run x4 Pact. I mentioned it as possible protection that Breathweapon is a fan of. I personally don't like it because I feel like it takes away from a lot of the decks potential; threat density. If your opponent has 2 countermagic, you are probably screwed if your protection spell was Pact. You can come back from that situation though, especially with post-board options like Carpet of Flowers that enable you to explode seemingly out of nothing.
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I know but Im not sure which is more common:
a) You're opponent having 2 counterspells and you winning anyway on a different turn. (Autumn Veil)
OR
b) You're opponent having 1 counterspell and you have green up. (Autumn Veil)
VS.
c) You're opponent having 1 counter spell while you have no green up. (Pact of Negation)
OR
d) Mindbreak Trap
I think my favorite thing about this deck is that it beats the Storm mirror.
Well arguably the best option then is Xantid Swarm because it protects multiple combo turns. I forgot that you already had Swarms in the MD. You will probably come to see that x11 protection is a bit too much. You rely completely upon Belcher in this case.
Yes you beat pretty much destroy storm and aggro. I love the Belcher matchup. They EtW for like 20 tokens, and pass the turn confidently. Normally, the only other thing that can beat that is a lethal Belcher. Then I Tendrils for like 46 and they wet their pants. Always classic.
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I thank you immensely for this primer--I've wanted to understand this deck ever since I learned about it, and now I have the tools to do so. I'm not even halfway done reading the opening post and things make so much more sense that it's not even funny.
another thing I haven't yet figured out is what to board OUT. I'm pretty lost there. My SB I've found makes me slower, usually t2-4, but a lot more resilient. I've been pretty happy with it so far though, so I'm not sure what to cut. My favorite is when they aggressively mull to Mindbreak Trap/Force Of Will, because then they just about scoop to Duress lol.
With the PSI list, I ALWAYS board out summoner's pact x4 for carpet of flowers x4 and the rest is up to you. If you run manamorphose in your list, I would also board those out for autumn's veil or duress if you run it or pact of negation also if you run it. It depends on your entire build really like what 60 cards are in your MD and whats in your SB. If you think they kept swords/path in for xantid swarm I would board those out for autumn's veil though.
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Question. Is this deck playable also on MTGO? MTGO doesn't have Cruel Bargain which seems like a very important card for this deck. It has all other cards though. Is there some alternative card that could replace Cruel Bargain?
Not a chance. The deck cannot function without the full D4 package. Impulse doesn't draw you 4 cards.
As far as boarding is concerned, Barl is right. Its pretty much list dependent. I always board out Summoner's Pact though. Remember, each list is really flexible. If your current boarding plans are making your more resilient, then I'd stick with that. Personally, I like having the ability to play out threats and draw countermagic out of the opponent until I can eventually land a lethal Belcher.
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SI is defined by the D4 package like Vacrix said. So no, MTGO cannot 'support' any SI lists because they all play at least 7 draw 4 for BBB effects/cruel bargain and infernal contract. You could, however, come up with a rogueish sort've list going in another direction with draw 7 effects like diminishing returns, time reversal, alongside meditate and infernal contract but that's another type of storm combo deck.
Impulse is TERRIBLE in any deck other than solidarity. I'd rather play preordain, ponder, or brainstorm before that card and those are suboptimal in place of cruel bargain.
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thoughts?
Either you get another D4 or you lower the the storm count necessary for a lethal tendrils. Sounds like it could be a pretty sweet deal.
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GGGGG Dungrove................(STANDARD)
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Jon Finkel on the PWP System:
On pain's reward. If it were less than 3 mana it would be a MAYBE card. At 3 mana you're better off just playing cruel bargain/infernal contract. After all, if you get outbid on life because you already played a draw 4 you are hurting since they just drew 4 and maybe a FoW or some countermagic and you just wasted 3 mana. It really isn't worth it in any SI list.
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About the culling and intent, I am not sure as to what we should do. The green kobold (Skyshroud cutter) helps a bit. But still, there must be a more consistent way of doing this.
One more thing, I hate having to mulligan hands like these: LED, Bargain, Tendrils, bayou, Dark Ritual, Pact, LED. It would be perfectly feasible if there was more than one copy of tendrils in the deck. Yes, Witness helps but casting witness is usually not too easy.
Also, Slithermuse is hard to evoke too. The only thing that helps is petal, since cracking led for UUU is kinda risky.
-4 Catacombs
-1 Swarm
+4 Grant
+1 Trow
Not being able to find trow with pact lost me the game twice before I put it in.
Land Grant just seems much better than Catacombs too
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Getting blue mana for evoking slithermuse has never been a problem for me. Cracking LED for blue mana to set up slithermuse off of a tutor effect is usually how it is done, or else I use a petal but LED is what puts every combo deck over the edge IMO because tutor's + LED = brokenness. You get +1 mana and any card in your deck when you do that.
Running more than one tendrils in PSI is insane and can mess with consistency. Like I said, if you run 2 land and 4 land grants, run a singleton goblin charbelcher as an alternate win con. The card is amazing in PSI with land grants.
Also, if you get a hand with tendrils and LED in it, you can ALWAYS mulligan. Like Vacrix has said, SI can mulligan better than any deck in the format. You can win with 4 cards in hand on the first turn. You can easily go from 7 cards to 6 cards and not miss a beat when comboing off because of the decks engine cards. Learning to mulligan with SI will make the deck a whole lot better.
EDIT: In replying to your post Ghekon, no there is no other SI list that is LEDless other than QSI. And counterbalance is ALWAYS going to be combo's nightmare MU, you can't do much in that MU when they set up countertop lock other than stare down at that goyf beating your face in. If you want a deck that crushes countertop, play Zoo/merfolk/any aggro deck in the format because by turn 3 you can be bashing face with 6 goblins via lackey into siege-gang into 3rd turn warchief. Solutions in QSI for counterbalance would be 4 duress, 4 thoughtseize, and 4 cabal therapy to make them discard counterbalance before they play it and if they hide it with brainstorm comboing out ASAP. But really, QSI is hard to play and if you aren't used to it it can crap out on you. As for fizzling, you are probably playing the deck wrong because when you end of their turn meditate you can have them counter it and you go off next turn or they get another turn and then you combo out with 11 cards in hand because you most likely can combo out with 1/6th of your deck in your grip. It can go off turn 1 but usually doesn't because it prefers to set up for a turn or 2 before blasting open the combo.
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1-Card draw or a means to tutor for it
2-Mana enough to cast the card draw (and then do some more stuff )
A hand without either, shall it be considered an instant mull? For example:
Hands to mull:
ESG, ESG, Witness, Contract, Tutor, Muse, Pact
Mox, Culling, Culling, Cabal, Tendrils, Bargain
Contract, Bargain, Mox, Petal, LED
Tutor, Tutor, Culling, Culling
or
ESG, LED, LED, Arbor, Culling, Mox, DarkRit
------------------------------------
Not so sure if should mull:
Petal, LED, LED, Cabal, DarkRit, Tutor, ESG
This hand should in theory give me the tutor.
Play:
Petal, LED, LED, petal crack (B), ESG (BG), DR (BBBG), Cabal (BBBBG), Tutor for bargain, crack leds in response (BBBBBBBBB), cast bargain (BBBBBB), Draw:
Dryad arbor, Cabal, Petal, Bargain
Play:
Petal, cabal (BBBBBBBB), bargain (BBBBB), draw:
Pact, Trow, ESG, Contract
Play: contract (BB) draw:
Xantid, Bayou, Land Grant, Tutor
Now here we have a problem. We can't get rid of both lands in this hand, so we can't tutor for tendrils. So this is basically a blowout. We can wait till next turn but we are at 2 life and thus at risk of being killed. If all goes well:
Play arbor
Turn 2: Draw intent
bayou, grant, ESG (G), tap bayou and arbor (GGB), play xantid, sac for intent, fetch tenrdils.
Aaaand pretty much fizzle and get killed by your opponent next turn.
----------------------
What usually happens with good hands is, everything is set, but I'm 1 mana short of a tendrils. Or 1 cards too many in hand for tutor with 6 mana in pool and a nice storm count. Or 1 creature too short for intent. These are indeed frustrating situations. I believe the 'bad hand' and the 'almost there' are the key problems of this deck that we must address.
UBRGW T.E.S.
UUUSpiral Tide
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
EDH:
UB Oona, Queen of the Fae
Combo is a part of magic. If you cant deal with combo then your not a magic player.
Nope. It might be cool as the first D4 you play, but your opponent can just pay 11 life the 2nd time and you just wasted X cards to do nothing. Rarely will you be able to make the play Pain's Reward + Tendrils.
QSI is pretty good against Merfolk, but most builds are. Their protection tends to be too light.
I dropped this build entirely. My old build with Belcher is much stronger, even against control. I'll post my updated list a little later.
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5 cards in graveyard, 3 Black Mana, do you play Cabal Ritual before or after a Draw 4?
If you play it before you can play any Dark Rituals/Cullings etc you draw into. If you play it after and you draw into the means to do so you pretty much just win. Hurts my brain.
Another toughie is something like this:
LED in play, 4 Black/1 Green left with a Draw 4 on the stack, what do you crack LED for?
Blue let's you play Slithermuse should you draw it, Green E-Witness, and I don't think you run out of black in that situation, (but you might). Most people would say it doesn't matter, but keep in mind that if you draw one of your one ofs you probably just win.
One more simple one I have trouble with:
LED in play, 4 Black mana, Pact/Mox/Draw 4 in hand. Storm 3 Do you mox pact or do you pact for a creature to mox for more storm. If you mox a creature you're all in, but have +1 Storm. Also what creature do you mox? The obvious answer is Trow, but several times in this exact stuation or very close to it, ive needed to Pact for Trow again and lost because of it.
Help appreciated!!!
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With the LED situation, I'd probably just go with BBB. Its a safe choice and you can be on being able to use it. The deck is so chalk full of green sources that your chances of drawing one are pretty high for the Ewit line of play. I wouldn't bother breaking it for GGG, or even UUU in the case of Slithermuse. Now, if I were playing BW, then RRR is also an option, but it depends on the number of BW already cast, which is likely 0 if you are making this line of play.
The last one, it all depends on what you've played. Keep in mind that this deck is about calculation. You have to guage what is likely to be your top4 based upon what has been played, and what is in your hand. Looking at it in a vacuum for a quick solution doesn't really work. In general though, the deck has a pretty easy time getting to a high storm count. Try to keep the spell chain going, don't worry about hitting 10. That will happen by itself if you make good play decisions. If you expect Culling off the top because you haven't seen any yet after like 2 D4's, hell go for it. I wouldn't compromise mana floating though for the sake of storm unless I was sure of a few things first.
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-1 Diabolic Intent
+1 Charbelcher
And my sideboard is:
4 Autumn's Veil
4 Duress
4 Carpet of Flowers
3 Nature's Claim (Which I might actually move to 4, because it's so bomb, as the most popular sideboard cards are Leyline of Sanctity/Ethersworn Canonist and Mindbreak Trap/Gaddock Teeg are unpopular. Lot of white/red around here)
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Creatures are:
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Xathrid Swarm
4 ESG
1 Eternal Witness
1 Odious Trow
I think I like Duress better though, because I like to be able to Duress on turn 1.
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a) You're opponent having 2 counterspells and you winning anyway on a different turn. (Autumn Veil)
OR
b) You're opponent having 1 counterspell and you have green up. (Autumn Veil)
VS.
c) You're opponent having 1 counter spell while you have no green up. (Pact of Negation)
OR
d) Mindbreak Trap
I think my favorite thing about this deck is that it beats the Storm mirror.
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Yes you beat pretty much destroy storm and aggro. I love the Belcher matchup. They EtW for like 20 tokens, and pass the turn confidently. Normally, the only other thing that can beat that is a lethal Belcher. Then I Tendrils for like 46 and they wet their pants. Always classic.
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As far as boarding is concerned, Barl is right. Its pretty much list dependent. I always board out Summoner's Pact though. Remember, each list is really flexible. If your current boarding plans are making your more resilient, then I'd stick with that. Personally, I like having the ability to play out threats and draw countermagic out of the opponent until I can eventually land a lethal Belcher.
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Impulse is TERRIBLE in any deck other than solidarity. I'd rather play preordain, ponder, or brainstorm before that card and those are suboptimal in place of cruel bargain.
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