I feel that with 8 tutors for dryad, culling can be played at 3. It definitely sucks drawing the second, but 3 mana in 2 cards is solid enough. Otherwise I often mox it or throw it away with led, 8 other outs. I would consider running 2 probably playing another MM. I can't say that I have a problem casting EW, but I can imagine having problems in the future.
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Junk Aristocrats-9-0 top 8'd SCG Somerset 7/27/13
Top4 PTQ 8/11/13
11th GP Louisville.
TES
mario91234 on MTGO and Twitch
Don't worry, I know the love for her. It might be because I only have half the Manamorphose, but rarely do I have 1GG to spare. I need to force myself to use her more often though so I can better see some of the nice things to be grabbed.
I rarely cast Eternal Witness from my hand, either. If you manage to just have two Green Mana, she's all right, but she's only really a Regrowth and Culling Fodder at that point. And that's okay, but not amazing. Here's what makes her amazing for me. Provided that you have some initial mana floating, you can use Summoner's Pact -> activate LED in response for GGG, and tutor for any card in your graveyard that you have either cast or pitched with LED. It's very versatile, and I have won games from doing this to get a Tendrils I had previously discarded for the win; I've used it to make an in-hand Tendrils lethal; To Charbelcher with seven mana for the win; To get D4s I previously played in order to continue going off; I've even managed to have 3U to return Slithermuse to my hand and draw a fresh seven on the first turn of the game.
And to be honest, it took a year of nonstop goldfishing for me to actually realize I could do things like that with her, so I don't blame anyone for not understanding she's that good, and I tend to assume newer players of the deck don't know she's that good.
I played this deck in a small tournament yesterday and went 3-3. A large part of it was me fizzling (probably because I went for it when I should have waited.) I was playing the standard psi build.
One thing I noticed was that slithermuse was underwhelming. I've been goldfishing some more, and I really like ill-gotten gains better. I like winning now instead of d7ing first. I think I'm also going to try to stick wild cantor or vine dryad in there because a lot of times I wanted more culling the weak fodder.
I was looking at the PSI list and was wondering, would death wish be better in the main deck over infernal contract?
It does the same thing, but in a dig situation it can let you find what ever you need out of the wishboard, although there might be times when you just need the pure CA, if this has already been mentioned can you explain to me why contract is played over wish?
I played this deck in a small tournament yesterday and went 3-3. A large part of it was me fizzling (probably because I went for it when I should have waited.) I was playing the standard psi build.
One thing I noticed was that slithermuse was underwhelming. I've been goldfishing some more, and I really like ill-gotten gains better. I like winning now instead of d7ing first. I think I'm also going to try to stick wild cantor or vine dryad in there because a lot of times I wanted more culling the weak fodder.
In what situation do you believe that you should be waiting to go off? As I mentioned above, I really feel like going for it as soon as possible is the best thing you can be doing most of the time. Even if you do fail to combo, as long as your opponent doesn't immediately kill you when you pass the turn, you often should have a full grip of cards to give you a great chance of winning in your second attempt.
On IGG: It's a matter of playstyle and preference, I suppose. I personally like Slithermuse better because I usually like to go for it on turn one, and being able to get Slithermuse off of Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, and Lion's Eye Diamond in my opening hand is much more important to me than casting Ill-Gotten Gains at any point in my chain. More often than not, the deck draws you so many cards that you don't need to use Ill-Gotten Gains for the extra storm, but I can see where it would be less stressful to be assured victory at five spells instead of floundering around at ten spells hoping to find Tendrils, and the ability to make an opponent discard down to three cards on turn one isn't a bad one, either.
I was looking at the PSI list and was wondering, would death wish be better in the main deck over infernal contract?
It does the same thing, but in a dig situation it can let you find what ever you need out of the wishboard, although there might be times when you just need the pure CA, if this has already been mentioned can you explain to me why contract is played over wish?
A) What would your sideboard look like? You need basically all of your sideboard slots to fight blue decks and Leyline of Sanctity. A wishboard isn't something I imagine this deck can do well.
B) The only situation that I can think of where you want one specific card (from Death Wish) over four random cards (D4) is if you've already played enough spells and have so much mana that Death Wish getting Tendrils will kill your opponent. That is literally it. Infernal Contract is the card that allows you to get to that point in the first place. I wouldn't trade Infernal Contract, which is great at the beginning of your chain and okay near the end of it, with Death Wish, which is bad at the beginning of your chain, and bad at the end of your chain unless your chain has steered you into the situation described above.
With the amount of people playing blue nowadays in a typical Legacy tournament would it be a better idea to main deck the blue hate and sideboard the cards for non disruptive decks?
I intend to play this deck at GP Providence and I have become quite proficient at gold-fishing into T1/2 wins but it seems to me that a well placed Mental Misstep will neuter me (most likely cause me to lose because of Summoner's Pact) and obviously a FoW on the end of the chain is a game breaker.
Does anyone here have experience/thoughts on this or is the post-board match-up just that good against blue decks that you don't have to worry about getting nailed in game 1?
I've been building and testing this deck now for a good 4 months. its a blast to play but it does tend to bite you on occasion. whiffing on a draw 4 is rather sucky but its the nature of the deck. i've been following the discussions on here and the have found that the closer you keep the builds to the original ones the better and more effective they act. me personally i like the pact builds. i have modified mine to attempt to give me some game against blue decks in game 1. i main deck 3 swarms and it seems to be working pretty well. it is a must counter for blue and if it sticks i generally win the following turn(hopefully turn 2). it also means i have plenty of culling fodder and its still pact-able to keep the combo going. i like it better than duress and autumns veil as works for multiple turns. yes misstep still eats it but that's one less to stop the rest of the deck. i also find that against blue being on the draw is helpful in both pre and post sb games. the extra card advantage can push u over the edge sometimes and winning turn 1 with 8 instead of 7 cards is easier against everyone. also since missteps printing daze is seeing slightly less play so its not quite as big a deal to give them an island in play.
my list for reference. the sb i am still working on but i will put what i think i will be taking to GP
1 bayou
1 arbor
4 land grant
4 summ pact
3 ESG
4 dark rit
4 cabal rit
4 culling
4 inf contract
4 c bargain
4 inf tutor
4 LED
4 c mox
4 petal
3 swarms
1 o trow
1 wild cantor
1 witness (it took a bit of testing but she is sooooo good)
3 tendrils
1 belcher
1 slithermuse
sb
3 duress
3 carpet of flowers
3 back to nature
3 slaughter pact
3 leyline of sanctity
the sb is still in flux. i will be doing so testing tonight and will report back. sb is the part i am having the hardest time with. the main is right where i want it so im happy with it. it goes off turn 1 pretty consistently unless i draw a swarm in my opener. then i try for t2 kill with protection.
fwiw this deck is the most fun to play of anything i have ever picked up. turn 1-ing people is awsome
I was play testing this against a very good Merfolk player both pre and post sideboard and I am not very confident in the MU whatsoever. Preboard on the play I can win if they don't have force OR MM. MM only counters Dark Ritual/Culling of the weak but a well placed one can completely wreck a chain and cause a loss. Force of Will is obvious and thems the breaks when it comes to this deck and I don't really have a problem with that.
Game 2/3 become incredibly difficult. After they know what you are playing they will aggressively mulligan for counters (namely FoW) in addition to boarding in more counters. MM is a real problem when trying to stick a Xantid Swarm or Carpet of Flowers. Post-board I am more afraid of these getting countered by MM than I am worried about FoW.
Could people with experience facing Merfolk or other counter-heavy blue decks give me some pointers? I can imagine Standstill being a horrible MU as well.
I've noticed the same things about blue heavy matchups. However, I won against solidarity and a u/w control deck by just tacking a gamble and going all-in hoping they didn't mull into fow or or mm. But I feel I just got super lucky
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Also I'm thinking i was wrong in thinking I knew how to play the pact list. While I figured out some o the reasons eternal witness is so good plus how good summoners pact can be, I still get more consistent turn 1 or 2 kills with lgsi lists and I love how well those lists abuse cabal therapy.
I would like to hear more indepth answers to how to better utilize eternal witness while Comboing off. I already see how ew and sp work well with led but I don't use them that much.
Right now I like the land grant version better but I don't understand why those decks don't use dryAd arbor instead of the 2 bayous.
From what I heard, the D7 list proved to be too volatile and not good enough to make the cut in legacy when compared to other SI lists. Nothing in the draw 7 version is banned sans the totally fair draw 7 effects for 2U and 2R in the form of windfall, timetwister, and wheel of fortune along with memory jar as well but those have always been banned in legacy from the start far before SI was a deck.
I wouldn't take this to a high level tournie right now. The format is saturated with blue packing 4 FoW's and 4 missteps along with other countermagic and of course hymn to tourach wrecks this deck usually if it resolves. Unless you can somehow make the merfolk, team america, and landstill MUs favorable I don't see the reason to play this deck in any variation. I love this deck to death but it just isn't well positioned at the moment.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Ok. So with more testing on cockatrice, I've realized that I can much more consistently get my combo off while playing with the LGSI list. There have also been multiple times against non-blue decks where I've fizzled on turn one after d4ing myself to 2 life, and then winning via IGG loop the next turn.
Maybe the reason is still that I don't understand how to pilot the Pact version well enough, but I find the LGSI a lot more consistent and I love having cabal therapy. Along with ill-gotten gains, you can destroy their hands.
Why don't these lists play 1 bayou and 1 dryad arbor? Is it solely because it can only be fetched with LG with no pacts?
Also, I'm not crazy about the man-plan sibeboard, and the sideboard from the pact lists don't quite fit in well enough. Any suggestions for updated sideboard lists for the Land grant lists? Is autumn's veil or xantid swarm superior in this cases?
For the blue matches I would highly suggest tomb of urami's. These pose huge problems for any blue match up due to the incredible cheapness and efficiency this deck gets from it. I am currently testing Mental Misstep as a replacement for duress in the sideboard.
For the blue matches I would highly suggest tomb of urami's. These pose huge problems for any blue match up due to the incredible cheapness and efficiency this deck gets from it. I am currently testing Mental Misstep as a replacement for duress in the sideboard.
That makes a lot of sense. The problem I'm having with LGSI sideboarding is that md there is only 1 belcher. Could LGSI still utilize bringing in carpet of flowers and more belchers for multiple belchings? And then tomb or urami? And in the LGSI versions, is xantid or veil better?
Does anyone else find the LGSI version more resilient?
Why replace duress with misstep in the board? It only counters misstep and spell snare. And it is awful with LED. I would rather cast duress and have them misstep it then misstep their misstep since the result is the same. On the other hand if they don't have misstep and duress resolves you see what you're up against. Duress will continue to perform admirably, no matter what the meta looks like.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Thanks for the input Barl. I had not looked at it in that way and have dropped the idea. The raw power of duress is that it must be countered. This makes it the proactive card while mental misstep is the reactive card only being good after something else happens.
I realize how Gitaxian Probe is useless in the pact versions of SI, but I feel it could be well utilized in the Land Grant Version by helping make cabal therapy better. The problem is that the list is very tight, and I can't think of what to take out for Gitaxian Probe, or if things could be taken out should probe be a 2,3,or 4 of?
I feel SI is a lot weaker now in the current meta, and am I wrong in thinking that LGSI is better suited while still being quite quick?
I would be very hesitant to run more than two probes in an SI deck - the life loss is fine before a D4, but casting a probe after a D4 or two is really awkward, and shuts off futher D4s really quickly.
In LGSI, I'd probably prefer to rely on the high creature count and flashback to pull off effective therapies.
In any case, neither LGSI nor PSI is well position in the metagame - both are cold to FoW. Therapy is minimal protection, and MM counters it (and they're everywhere).
I don't know. I have done nothing but goldfish this deck for the better part of two months, and i'm feeling more confident in my numbers in the head. I used to play with this deck as a time-killer/solitare/relaxer. I'm thinking about taking it out into the real world.... But I'm actually more than concerned about Merfolk than anything else.
And only Merfolk. MUC i'm fine with, conceptually, but Merfolk has both the counters and the clock that scares me. Is it just a process and knowing when to pull the trigger on the D4's? Being patient post-board? Cursecatchers are bad, but not impossible, forces are bad, missteps are bad. and all i want to do is side in a choke.
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Un autre con brandit le drapeau de la nouvelle économie. Agitant sa criminelle thérapie, l'abruti prophá¨te s'en va guerrir le monde de ses maux ! Mais la misá¨re n'a que faire de cette médecine á dose homeopathétique, Il n'y a d'autre cure que l'ablation du liberal-fascisme qui nous ronge. - Amanda Woodward, Un Autre Con
I've been playing this deck for a little while already, and I have an interesting question. What would people think of 2x Sundial of the Infinite between the MD and SB? It can save our behinds from the ever present problem of using a Summoner's Pact and failing to win that turn...
I've been playing this deck for a little while already, and I have an interesting question. What would people think of 2x Sundial of the Infinite between the MD and SB? It can save our behinds from the ever present problem of using a Summoner's Pact and failing to win that turn...
Defenitely not. If you do draw it but you never see a Pact, you've just gone from a 7 card hand to a 6 card hand, and turn your D4s into D3s. Effectively killing the deck.
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Tantarus: It didn't make the gaka greifer level, so it should be fine
Top4 PTQ 8/11/13
11th GP Louisville.
TES
mario91234 on MTGO and Twitch
I rarely cast Eternal Witness from my hand, either. If you manage to just have two Green Mana, she's all right, but she's only really a Regrowth and Culling Fodder at that point. And that's okay, but not amazing. Here's what makes her amazing for me. Provided that you have some initial mana floating, you can use Summoner's Pact -> activate LED in response for GGG, and tutor for any card in your graveyard that you have either cast or pitched with LED. It's very versatile, and I have won games from doing this to get a Tendrils I had previously discarded for the win; I've used it to make an in-hand Tendrils lethal; To Charbelcher with seven mana for the win; To get D4s I previously played in order to continue going off; I've even managed to have 3U to return Slithermuse to my hand and draw a fresh seven on the first turn of the game.
And to be honest, it took a year of nonstop goldfishing for me to actually realize I could do things like that with her, so I don't blame anyone for not understanding she's that good, and I tend to assume newer players of the deck don't know she's that good.
One thing I noticed was that slithermuse was underwhelming. I've been goldfishing some more, and I really like ill-gotten gains better. I like winning now instead of d7ing first. I think I'm also going to try to stick wild cantor or vine dryad in there because a lot of times I wanted more culling the weak fodder.
It does the same thing, but in a dig situation it can let you find what ever you need out of the wishboard, although there might be times when you just need the pure CA, if this has already been mentioned can you explain to me why contract is played over wish?
In what situation do you believe that you should be waiting to go off? As I mentioned above, I really feel like going for it as soon as possible is the best thing you can be doing most of the time. Even if you do fail to combo, as long as your opponent doesn't immediately kill you when you pass the turn, you often should have a full grip of cards to give you a great chance of winning in your second attempt.
On IGG: It's a matter of playstyle and preference, I suppose. I personally like Slithermuse better because I usually like to go for it on turn one, and being able to get Slithermuse off of Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor, and Lion's Eye Diamond in my opening hand is much more important to me than casting Ill-Gotten Gains at any point in my chain. More often than not, the deck draws you so many cards that you don't need to use Ill-Gotten Gains for the extra storm, but I can see where it would be less stressful to be assured victory at five spells instead of floundering around at ten spells hoping to find Tendrils, and the ability to make an opponent discard down to three cards on turn one isn't a bad one, either.
A) What would your sideboard look like? You need basically all of your sideboard slots to fight blue decks and Leyline of Sanctity. A wishboard isn't something I imagine this deck can do well.
B) The only situation that I can think of where you want one specific card (from Death Wish) over four random cards (D4) is if you've already played enough spells and have so much mana that Death Wish getting Tendrils will kill your opponent. That is literally it. Infernal Contract is the card that allows you to get to that point in the first place. I wouldn't trade Infernal Contract, which is great at the beginning of your chain and okay near the end of it, with Death Wish, which is bad at the beginning of your chain, and bad at the end of your chain unless your chain has steered you into the situation described above.
I intend to play this deck at GP Providence and I have become quite proficient at gold-fishing into T1/2 wins but it seems to me that a well placed Mental Misstep will neuter me (most likely cause me to lose because of Summoner's Pact) and obviously a FoW on the end of the chain is a game breaker.
Does anyone here have experience/thoughts on this or is the post-board match-up just that good against blue decks that you don't have to worry about getting nailed in game 1?
my list for reference. the sb i am still working on but i will put what i think i will be taking to GP
1 bayou
1 arbor
4 land grant
4 summ pact
3 ESG
4 dark rit
4 cabal rit
4 culling
4 inf contract
4 c bargain
4 inf tutor
4 LED
4 c mox
4 petal
3 swarms
1 o trow
1 wild cantor
1 witness (it took a bit of testing but she is sooooo good)
3 tendrils
1 belcher
1 slithermuse
sb
3 duress
3 carpet of flowers
3 back to nature
3 slaughter pact
3 leyline of sanctity
the sb is still in flux. i will be doing so testing tonight and will report back. sb is the part i am having the hardest time with. the main is right where i want it so im happy with it. it goes off turn 1 pretty consistently unless i draw a swarm in my opener. then i try for t2 kill with protection.
fwiw this deck is the most fun to play of anything i have ever picked up. turn 1-ing people is awsome
Game 2/3 become incredibly difficult. After they know what you are playing they will aggressively mulligan for counters (namely FoW) in addition to boarding in more counters. MM is a real problem when trying to stick a Xantid Swarm or Carpet of Flowers. Post-board I am more afraid of these getting countered by MM than I am worried about FoW.
Could people with experience facing Merfolk or other counter-heavy blue decks give me some pointers? I can imagine Standstill being a horrible MU as well.
.
Also I'm thinking i was wrong in thinking I knew how to play the pact list. While I figured out some o the reasons eternal witness is so good plus how good summoners pact can be, I still get more consistent turn 1 or 2 kills with lgsi lists and I love how well those lists abuse cabal therapy.
I would like to hear more indepth answers to how to better utilize eternal witness while Comboing off. I already see how ew and sp work well with led but I don't use them that much.
Right now I like the land grant version better but I don't understand why those decks don't use dryAd arbor instead of the 2 bayous.
I think the draw 7 is banned.
I wouldn't take this to a high level tournie right now. The format is saturated with blue packing 4 FoW's and 4 missteps along with other countermagic and of course hymn to tourach wrecks this deck usually if it resolves. Unless you can somehow make the merfolk, team america, and landstill MUs favorable I don't see the reason to play this deck in any variation. I love this deck to death but it just isn't well positioned at the moment.
Currently Playing:
Retired
Maybe the reason is still that I don't understand how to pilot the Pact version well enough, but I find the LGSI a lot more consistent and I love having cabal therapy. Along with ill-gotten gains, you can destroy their hands.
Why don't these lists play 1 bayou and 1 dryad arbor? Is it solely because it can only be fetched with LG with no pacts?
Also, I'm not crazy about the man-plan sibeboard, and the sideboard from the pact lists don't quite fit in well enough. Any suggestions for updated sideboard lists for the Land grant lists? Is autumn's veil or xantid swarm superior in this cases?
That makes a lot of sense. The problem I'm having with LGSI sideboarding is that md there is only 1 belcher. Could LGSI still utilize bringing in carpet of flowers and more belchers for multiple belchings? And then tomb or urami? And in the LGSI versions, is xantid or veil better?
Does anyone else find the LGSI version more resilient?
Currently Playing:
Retired
I feel SI is a lot weaker now in the current meta, and am I wrong in thinking that LGSI is better suited while still being quite quick?
In LGSI, I'd probably prefer to rely on the high creature count and flashback to pull off effective therapies.
In any case, neither LGSI nor PSI is well position in the metagame - both are cold to FoW. Therapy is minimal protection, and MM counters it (and they're everywhere).
I don't know. I have done nothing but goldfish this deck for the better part of two months, and i'm feeling more confident in my numbers in the head. I used to play with this deck as a time-killer/solitare/relaxer. I'm thinking about taking it out into the real world.... But I'm actually more than concerned about Merfolk than anything else.
And only Merfolk. MUC i'm fine with, conceptually, but Merfolk has both the counters and the clock that scares me. Is it just a process and knowing when to pull the trigger on the D4's? Being patient post-board? Cursecatchers are bad, but not impossible, forces are bad, missteps are bad. and all i want to do is side in a choke.
Defenitely not. If you do draw it but you never see a Pact, you've just gone from a 7 card hand to a 6 card hand, and turn your D4s into D3s. Effectively killing the deck.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
Duel Commander:
WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
Church of the Wary
It's still not a good thing to play against FoW, but it is certainly no longer totally obsolete.