Been testing a candle-less version a lot lately and really love it. Not sure how much candles add to the deck, but with this build, I can generate more than enough mana for a letal BSZ on turn 4.
Been testing a candle-less version a lot lately and really love it. Not sure how much candles add to the deck, but with this build, I can generate more than enough mana for a letal BSZ on turn 4.
Seems to have a decent game against most decks. I'll be running it one Saturday and let you know how I do.
Looks pretty good, good luck!
Candles allow for turn 3 more often, I've done:
T1: Land -> Candle
T2: Land -> Cantrip/merchant scroll--> Tide or Counter
T3: Land -> High Tide, make :symu::symu::symu::symu: Activate candle for X= 3, untap 3 lands with float. Now depending on your hand you can have mana to:
Time Spiral + cantrip/Flusterstorm
or
Turnabout + Meditate
or
Turnabout + Scroll
or
Wish + Turnabout
This is random much, but it was something I noted in another discussion on another board for High Tide, so now I feel compelled to ask it here, what's the worst luck you've ever had playing the deck?
For me, I once casted a Blue Sun's Zenith on myself to draw 10 cards, then I drew 9 lands and a force of will, the likelyhood of me seeing that ever again is so small I doubt I'll ever see it again, but it did happen once, so I'll never forget it.
This is random much, but it was something I noted in another discussion on another board for High Tide, so now I feel compelled to ask it here, what's the worst luck you've ever had playing the deck?
For me, I once casted a Blue Sun's Zenith on myself to draw 10 cards, then I drew 9 lands and a force of will, the likelyhood of me seeing that ever again is so small I doubt I'll ever see it again, but it did happen once, so I'll never forget it.
This is random much, but it was something I noted in another discussion on another board for High Tide, so now I feel compelled to ask it here, what's the worst luck you've ever had playing the deck?
For me, I once casted a Blue Sun's Zenith on myself to draw 10 cards, then I drew 9 lands and a force of will, the likelyhood of me seeing that ever again is so small I doubt I'll ever see it again, but it did happen once, so I'll never forget it.
I've had the 6 land + 1 force hands a few times. 5 land, 1 Force/Flusterstorm, 1 Turnabout hands happen too. I once Time Spiral'ed an opponent into 2 Force + 2 blue cards, that was fun.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently playing:
Standard: N/A
Modern: AffinityWR, Delver WUR
Legacy: High TideU, ZombiesWBRG, 12post UG, Delver UR
As long as you do more than 1 candel, only doing one means once it's used it doesn't untap, because using turnabout to untap 1 candel is a waste of mana, just do lands, but 2+ candels in play, then it's worth it with the high tides resolved, but obviously, that means having 2 or more.
As far as candels in the deck, 2 candels is better than 0, so yes, but the popular as of late has been 3, though I myself run 4, that is just me ^.^
If I wanted to build the Candle version of High Tide is 2 candles enough? Thought?
I have also been playing with 2 Candles. It's just perfect. In my opinion, Candle is one of the weakest slots and I try to minimize the number. However, I want more untap effects than just 4 Turnabout... that's why the Candles are there. It happens quite often that I do -1 Candle in game 2 and 3 but it's because I run 1 Capsize in the side board.
I like running 3+ candles so that some opponents will attempt to waist early mana/resources to get rid of it... And I have turnabout + TS in hand... "Cool story bro, you Forced my candle on turn 1, so you're at -2 U cards and I'm about to combo"
I have also been playing with 2 Candles. It's just perfect. In my opinion, Candle is one of the weakest slots and I try to minimize the number. However, I want more untap effects than just 4 Turnabout... that's why the Candles are there. It happens quite often that I do -1 Candle in game 2 and 3 but it's because I run 1 Capsize in the side board.
I am actually toying with Capsize in the sideboard right now, it's fun as heck to bounce all their permanents and Time Spiral them away, have infinite mana ^.^ Though as far as actually helping goes, what it actually does for the deck is technically miniscule and could be listed as "win more" since once you're at that point you're likely winning, however there are 2 things in defense of the capsize that I have to acknowledge:
1, if you fizzle after doing this, your opponent is also fizzled, because their entire board was bounced & spiraled away, and you're both starting over after a fizzle, except you have your lands in play still.
2, it makes things faster, once you have infinite mana, you only need to focus on casting draw spells and you don't have to worry about tracking mana anymore, and anything that saves time in a time consuming deck to play like high tide, still gets attention on some level, even if it's only saving a few seconds or a few minutes or anything in between.
My biggest issue in running it however, is that I am so used to not having it as an option, I almost never remember to get it when I get to the point of a candel in play & enough High Tide's resolved that I can just go infinite, I have to basically train myself to remember "oh yea I can do this now."
I am happy to see that you are also testing the card
There are several reasons why I play Capsize in my side board:
- I do not run Brain Freeze. Brain Freeze makes the kill easier (so does Capsize) but it is very weak in numerous situations. In my last tournament, I was at 3 lifes and my opponent was having deathrite shaman in play untapped... It meant that he could kill me during his upkeep. Against decks having a lot of Burn spell, it's also terrible to let them untap. Last thing agaisnt Brain Freeze, if you are used to kill with BSZ and you run Candles, you will rarely need Brain Freeze. That being said, I can imagine situations where it would be interesting to board out my 2 Candles and bring in Turnabout and Brain Freeze as a main kill. I never tested this but I should keep it in mind.
- I realized that I was never using my Echoing Truth to bounce several permanents. I saw the opportunity to remove 1 Brain Freeze and 1 Echoig Truth for 1 Capsize and win a side board slot.
- I play 1 Top. 2 HT, 4 islands, 1 Candle, 1 Top = GG with Capsize. Top is so good in the current metagame that I think to add 1.
- I can keep only 1 Candle post side board and still go very easily to lethal BSZ.
Of course, Capsize is not perfect. It is quite an expansive bounce out of the combo and for that price we could have Wipe Away (but I like to see the card as a kill and a "bad" bounce). It requires to be careful with your wishes, especially if you decrease the amount of Candles below 2 (when it can be difficult to lethal BSZ). It can be seen as a win more (you managed to win a big tournament only with BSZ in your sideboard) but in that case, you run a lot of Candles (I prefer to run more turnabouts).
A lot of work, but, I have submitted a new [Primer/Deck] High Tide to the moderators, here's hoping it gets approved, it's detailed as heck, I actually hit the 70,000 word limit and had to reduce it some.
~Includes the basics, short version & long version of playing the deck.
~40+ links to successful decklists since the unbanning of Time Spiral.
~Card choices, maindeck & sideboard, based on those decklists, the popular & not so pupular
~A price guide for individual singles from Candelabra of Tawnos -to- Island
~20+ Match ups based on Return to Ravnica successful legacy decks
I actually hit the 70,000 word limit and had to reduce it some.
I wrote a novel that was fewer than 70,00 words. No joke. It was 50, 517 words counting the title page. 154 pages double spaced in MS Word, 11 pt font.
70,000 worlds would have been nuts, but I'll still take 70k characters.
I will play in my first legacy tournement ever next week. I expect 20-50 person but have no idea of the metagame (if there's ''real'' deck, modest deck, etc). In goldfish, I like my main but wanted advice on my sideboard (advice on maindeck would still be appreciated
70,000 worlds would have been nuts, but I'll still take 70k characters.
I will play in my first legacy tournement ever next week. I expect 20-50 person but have no idea of the metagame (if there's ''real'' deck, modest deck, etc). In goldfish, I like my main but wanted advice on my sideboard (advice on maindeck would still be appreciated
Also instead of the drake, I would recommend Cloud of Faeries simply because it's much cheaper, costing only 2, can be used early on as a blocker against random aggro decks, and once 3 or 4 High Tides have been resolved, even just paying 2 to untap 2 islands is a mana increase.
@feline : intuition in the side, I guess there's none in the main?
@macius : I did try cloud of fearies (still in goldfish) and I found it just dosn't do enough (I may be wrong), but I understand your point. I don,t think brain freeze main is good, it's one less card while comboing, if you want a win condition main I think USZ would be beter because it could be relevant during combo
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm at first a french speaking person, so sorry for my bad english and thanks for your understanding
No actually ^.^, the current version I am running is 1 maindeck Intuition, 1 sideboard intuition, and no Meditate's in the deck at all. The focus is an emphasis on pushing Time Spiral's, if you can't Blue Sun Zenith yourself for a bunch of new cards, or the opponent for lethal.
I am aware however that it is more traditional to run Meditate, this is only something I am doing recently, and I wouldn't call it "offical" until my next open series next month if I actually take it that far, so far however I am liking it.
Drake do a very simular job of candles : of couse, you can't cast it turn one or untap them with turnabout, but when you cast it on 4 islands, it add a lot more mana than cloud of faeries. I admit that it's too great on 3 islands, but I feel that whatever the maindeck, comboing off with 3 island is hard, not impossible but very hard.
As for the sideboard, I'm fine with 1 surgical and I can put he second intuition in the side (like feline). Spell pierce also seems good to fill the hole and with the fact that it can be good in a ran
Question : what do you side out? I know the one high tide/one blue sun's zenith switch, but beside that I have no idea...
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm at first a french speaking person, so sorry for my bad english and thanks for your understanding
Lets say you face RUG..... go to cast Drake and you tap all your lands expecting a Turnabout. RUG drops stifle and you can potentially fizzle there. With Cloud, the 2 untap puts you less likely in that mental trap.
Also the fact that cloud can be an early blocker, combos with snap very well and has cycling just makes it so much better than drake. If im going to spend mana on drake, ill go 2 higher and "win more" with Palinchron.
In the end, test it.... It may work out, it may not....
- It does not allow you to combo with 3 lands in play (which happen quite often for me). From time to time you want to combo on turn 4 but you could not find your 4th island before Spiral. Candle or Turnabout let you do this.
- It does not combo with Turnabout.
In my opinion, it is really less good than Candles. If you don't have them, play Faeries. It is better to improve your plays pre-Spiral and the Faeries do this way better than Drake. You'll kill with Freeze.
For the rest of the list, I would advice to put the Snap in the side board. There are not deck which are forcing you to have this main board (Maverick is dead).
I would play 1 Intuition in the side board before 1 in the main board. I think you can find a debate about this topic few pages ago (or on another famous website).
Meditate side board is close to useless too. You can cut it, you will see hardly any difference.
1 Pact of Negation in the main board is also a good idea. It is so strong against many decks... and it can turn itself into a hardcounter at some point.
Sorry for the rough approach
About your side board problems, could you be more specific? In which match-up do you have problems?
Btw, I just won my 3 byes for GP Strasbourg with High Tide. I'll try to write something about the tournament soon.
Noting the above post, that is why I hate running cards in the deck that are potentially always dead before comboing, it's why I push for more Flusterstorms over running even a single Pact of negation in the main, I minimize Meditate, & I keep Blue Sun's Zenith in the sideboard only since it's still wishable, I love the idea of all my cards working pre & post combo.
No actually ^.^, the current version I am running is 1 maindeck Intuition, 1 sideboard intuition, and no Meditate's in the deck at all. The focus is an emphasis on pushing Time Spiral's, if you can't Blue Sun Zenith yourself for a bunch of new cards, or the opponent for lethal.
I am aware however that it is more traditional to run Meditate, this is only something I am doing recently, and I wouldn't call it "offical" until my next open series next month if I actually take it that far, so far however I am liking it.
I'll be trying exactly this next week at SCG DC, and I'll happily report on it for everyone.
For a budget build, it seems reasonable. If you can afford it, an Intuition in the sideboard would make it more consistent to find Time Spiral.
Here's what I'm running.
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Cloud of Faeries
4x High Tide
4x Time Spiral
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Preordain
4x Merchant Scroll
3x Cunning Wish
4x Turnabout
2x Meditate
2x Flusterstorm
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Meditate
1x Brain Freeze
1x Blue Sun's Zenith
1x Echoing Truth
1x Wipe Away
2x Pact of Negation
1x Rebuild
2x Snap
3x Repeal
2x Ravenous Trap
Seems to have a decent game against most decks. I'll be running it one Saturday and let you know how I do.
Looks pretty good, good luck!
Candles allow for turn 3 more often, I've done:
T1: Land -> Candle
T2: Land -> Cantrip/merchant scroll--> Tide or Counter
T3: Land -> High Tide, make :symu::symu::symu::symu: Activate candle for X= 3, untap 3 lands with float. Now depending on your hand you can have mana to:
Time Spiral + cantrip/Flusterstorm
or
Turnabout + Meditate
or
Turnabout + Scroll
or
Wish + Turnabout
You get the idea
I have to say Retraced Image version isn't bad, especially with Snapcaster Mage.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
For me, I once casted a Blue Sun's Zenith on myself to draw 10 cards, then I drew 9 lands and a force of will, the likelyhood of me seeing that ever again is so small I doubt I'll ever see it again, but it did happen once, so I'll never forget it.
The dreaded: 7 lands off Time Spiral -_-
Ever since then, I do a quick 4-pile shuffle before I draw from TS... never happened since.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
I've had the 6 land + 1 force hands a few times. 5 land, 1 Force/Flusterstorm, 1 Turnabout hands happen too. I once Time Spiral'ed an opponent into 2 Force + 2 blue cards, that was fun.
Standard: N/A
Modern: AffinityWR, Delver WUR
Legacy: High TideU, ZombiesWBRG, 12post UG, Delver UR
Live in Northern AZ? Lets play some Legacy! Catch me on MODO!
Awesome sig by the one and only DarkNightCavalier from Heroes of the Plane Studios
As far as candels in the deck, 2 candels is better than 0, so yes, but the popular as of late has been 3, though I myself run 4, that is just me ^.^
I have also been playing with 2 Candles. It's just perfect. In my opinion, Candle is one of the weakest slots and I try to minimize the number. However, I want more untap effects than just 4 Turnabout... that's why the Candles are there. It happens quite often that I do -1 Candle in game 2 and 3 but it's because I run 1 Capsize in the side board.
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
I am actually toying with Capsize in the sideboard right now, it's fun as heck to bounce all their permanents and Time Spiral them away, have infinite mana ^.^ Though as far as actually helping goes, what it actually does for the deck is technically miniscule and could be listed as "win more" since once you're at that point you're likely winning, however there are 2 things in defense of the capsize that I have to acknowledge:
1, if you fizzle after doing this, your opponent is also fizzled, because their entire board was bounced & spiraled away, and you're both starting over after a fizzle, except you have your lands in play still.
2, it makes things faster, once you have infinite mana, you only need to focus on casting draw spells and you don't have to worry about tracking mana anymore, and anything that saves time in a time consuming deck to play like high tide, still gets attention on some level, even if it's only saving a few seconds or a few minutes or anything in between.
My biggest issue in running it however, is that I am so used to not having it as an option, I almost never remember to get it when I get to the point of a candel in play & enough High Tide's resolved that I can just go infinite, I have to basically train myself to remember "oh yea I can do this now."
There are several reasons why I play Capsize in my side board:
- I do not run Brain Freeze. Brain Freeze makes the kill easier (so does Capsize) but it is very weak in numerous situations. In my last tournament, I was at 3 lifes and my opponent was having deathrite shaman in play untapped... It meant that he could kill me during his upkeep. Against decks having a lot of Burn spell, it's also terrible to let them untap. Last thing agaisnt Brain Freeze, if you are used to kill with BSZ and you run Candles, you will rarely need Brain Freeze. That being said, I can imagine situations where it would be interesting to board out my 2 Candles and bring in Turnabout and Brain Freeze as a main kill. I never tested this but I should keep it in mind.
- I realized that I was never using my Echoing Truth to bounce several permanents. I saw the opportunity to remove 1 Brain Freeze and 1 Echoig Truth for 1 Capsize and win a side board slot.
- I play 1 Top. 2 HT, 4 islands, 1 Candle, 1 Top = GG with Capsize. Top is so good in the current metagame that I think to add 1.
- I can keep only 1 Candle post side board and still go very easily to lethal BSZ.
Of course, Capsize is not perfect. It is quite an expansive bounce out of the combo and for that price we could have Wipe Away (but I like to see the card as a kill and a "bad" bounce). It requires to be careful with your wishes, especially if you decrease the amount of Candles below 2 (when it can be difficult to lethal BSZ). It can be seen as a win more (you managed to win a big tournament only with BSZ in your sideboard) but in that case, you run a lot of Candles (I prefer to run more turnabouts).
~Includes the basics, short version & long version of playing the deck.
~40+ links to successful decklists since the unbanning of Time Spiral.
~Card choices, maindeck & sideboard, based on those decklists, the popular & not so pupular
~A price guide for individual singles from Candelabra of Tawnos -to- Island
~20+ Match ups based on Return to Ravnica successful legacy decks
I wrote a novel that was fewer than 70,00 words. No joke. It was 50, 517 words counting the title page. 154 pages double spaced in MS Word, 11 pt font.
You sir, are insane.
I will play in my first legacy tournement ever next week. I expect 20-50 person but have no idea of the metagame (if there's ''real'' deck, modest deck, etc). In goldfish, I like my main but wanted advice on my sideboard (advice on maindeck would still be appreciated
4 merchant scroll
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 preordain
4 time spiral
3 turnabout
2 meditate
1 intuition
3 cunning wich
4 force of will
3 flusterstrom
2 peregrine drake
1 snap
3 misty rainforest
3 scalding tarn
Side
1 brainfreeze
1 blue sun's zenith
1 wipe away
1 echoing truth
2 pact of negation
1 meditate
1 turnabout
1 hurkyl's recall
1 ravenous trap
5 ?????????
Thank for your help!!!
Personally my sideboard currently is:
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Intuition
1 Turnabout
1 Snap
1 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild
1 Capsize (This is the most flexible spot for me, and if you don't run candels I don't recommend it, also I prefer 2 Wipe Away's at all times, & this is currently in place of 1 of them since Counterbalance is less popular at the moment, thank you Abrupt Decay)
3 Pact of Negation
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Surgical extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
Also instead of the drake, I would recommend Cloud of Faeries simply because it's much cheaper, costing only 2, can be used early on as a blocker against random aggro decks, and once 3 or 4 High Tides have been resolved, even just paying 2 to untap 2 islands is a mana increase.
Also, I'd recommend running maybe a Brain Freeze MB.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething Spicy@macius : I did try cloud of fearies (still in goldfish) and I found it just dosn't do enough (I may be wrong), but I understand your point. I don,t think brain freeze main is good, it's one less card while comboing, if you want a win condition main I think USZ would be beter because it could be relevant during combo
I am aware however that it is more traditional to run Meditate, this is only something I am doing recently, and I wouldn't call it "offical" until my next open series next month if I actually take it that far, so far however I am liking it.
As for the sideboard, I'm fine with 1 surgical and I can put he second intuition in the side (like feline). Spell pierce also seems good to fill the hole and with the fact that it can be good in a ran
Question : what do you side out? I know the one high tide/one blue sun's zenith switch, but beside that I have no idea...
Also the fact that cloud can be an early blocker, combos with snap very well and has cycling just makes it so much better than drake. If im going to spend mana on drake, ill go 2 higher and "win more" with Palinchron.
In the end, test it.... It may work out, it may not....
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyI agree with what has been said about the Drake:
- It does nothing out of the combo.
- It does not allow you to combo with 3 lands in play (which happen quite often for me). From time to time you want to combo on turn 4 but you could not find your 4th island before Spiral. Candle or Turnabout let you do this.
- It does not combo with Turnabout.
In my opinion, it is really less good than Candles. If you don't have them, play Faeries. It is better to improve your plays pre-Spiral and the Faeries do this way better than Drake. You'll kill with Freeze.
For the rest of the list, I would advice to put the Snap in the side board. There are not deck which are forcing you to have this main board (Maverick is dead).
I would play 1 Intuition in the side board before 1 in the main board. I think you can find a debate about this topic few pages ago (or on another famous website).
Meditate side board is close to useless too. You can cut it, you will see hardly any difference.
1 Pact of Negation in the main board is also a good idea. It is so strong against many decks... and it can turn itself into a hardcounter at some point.
Sorry for the rough approach
About your side board problems, could you be more specific? In which match-up do you have problems?
Btw, I just won my 3 byes for GP Strasbourg with High Tide. I'll try to write something about the tournament soon.
I'll be trying exactly this next week at SCG DC, and I'll happily report on it for everyone.