I'm not really concerned about bad matchups that I'll likely never face. Some examples why flusterstorm is so much better against BUG, RUG, esperblade, being the tier1 decks that see the most play.
- you go high tide, they counter, you flusterstorm for 3..
- you go high tide, they counter, you spell pierce for 2..
or even better
- you go high tide, they counter, you force, they counter, you flusterstorm for 5..
- you go high tide, they counter, you force, they counter, you spell pierce for 2..
this very well can mean the difference between winning and losing the game
And if they let the high tide resolve
- you turnabout, they counter, you flusterstorm for 4
- you turnabout, they counter, you spell pierce for 2, which they can probably pay with the resolved high tide.
They discard, you brainstorm in response, they counter your brainstorm
- you spell pierce either their discard or their counter for 2
- you flusterstorm BOTH their discard and counter for 2 each
The thing against these possibly counterspell heavy decks is that you should be turnabouting their lands anyways at the end of the turn before you go off. if you don't, then 2 or 3 is "easily" paid once high tide goes off anyways. spell pierce is more versatile in handling early threats that can potentially lead to a lockout or loss.
i think it's doubtful that they'll counter your brainstorm in response. they are saving their counters for more significant spells....and it also gives the opponent some knowledge of why you're showing them a hand you want them to see.
In theory, what you say is true. You should Turnabout their lands... however, in practice it happens not so often. A good example is RUG Delver which just does not let you time for it. And Turnabout may just be countered as any other spell.
Once High Tide is resolved. It's not 2 or 3 that the opponent will have to pay anymore. 1 HT resolved + another spell + one counter from the opponent = minimum 4 mana with Flusterstorm (double Pierce).
It's hard to "see" the power of Flusterstorm compared to Spell Pierce on a theoretical point of view. However, with practice it was really obvious for me. Since you tested against D&T and MUD I can understand why Flusterstorm seems horrible.
In theory, what you say is true. You should Turnabout their lands... however, in practice it happens not so often. A good example is RUG Delver which just does not let you time for it. And Turnabout may just be countered as any other spell.
This is not a bad thing, as it means there is one less counter in their hand for your High Tide and Time Spiral.
I did not say the contrary, but it mean also that they have mana open (even after your Time Spirale) and that Flusterstorm shines again more than Spell Pierce.
Went 0-3 today, but I'm not upset. Also tested Mystic Remora
0-2 vs Jund
Game 1 I just couldn't find any gas. Game 2 I boarded in 3x Remora, but didn't see any of them. My opponent drew all the discard, and I didn't have a strong hand.
1-2 vs TES
Game 1 was awesome, as I went off turn 3 with 2 lands and a Candelabra in play (tap, Tide, tap, untap 2, tap, Tide, Candelabra, tap, untap 2, tap both, Spiral). Played a third land, and actually generated enough mana to Blue Sun. For game 2 and 3, I brought in Mystic Remora. Game 2 I played it on turn 1. My opponent played no spells for 4 turns, allowing me to play my lands and 1 mana cantrips. I Spiral, get enough mana for lethal, but no way to kill, so I Spiral again. It leaves me with a Ponder, which finds nothing, and I fizzle. Game 3 I misplayed.
1-2 vs Burn
He admits to having an awkward list since he's borrowing the deck. Game 1 I go off rather safely, winning with 4 life left. I bring Remora again for games 2 and 3 (they play a lot of noncreatures, and it puts cards into my hand quickly). Game 2 I find nothing that quick and die. Game 3 I play a turn 1 Remora and start drawing a bunch of cards. Thankfully in the first 5 turns, I go through at least 15 cards and find 2 land. I can't do anything relevant, and I die.
Overall I love Mystic Remora, it's awesome in some matches. I'll continue to test with it. Today was just some bad draws and some misplays, so I can get over that.
^that's sad =/ but after watching the open for most of the day, it's been a very combo-heavy field lol... I've never seen so many turn 1 kills on camera
I don't mind casting multiple Time Spiral's, the more candels in play, the more card draw spells in deck, especially if you're big on 4 / 4 / 4 / brainstorm / ponder / preordain, between that and the tutors, more spirals & card draw, you should rarely fizzle.
Also I have lost against goblins, you play enough against anything, it's gonna get you, though it hurts to lose that match!
@Feline: Weird little thing, but assume somehow that you couldnt use candelabra or it was banned somehow, how would you go about doing a high tide list personally (this is open to anyone really...)
Well the obvious would be to cut Candels ha ha, after that, after maxing out on Turnabout's again, I'd have to find something else for the remainder, I'd possibly lean toward Eric Becker's list that pulled a no candel win running remands, but i am not 100% on that, basically I'd look at everything and come to a conclusion as to what to do best, but because I haven't had to run into that, I can only speculate at this point.
@Feline: Weird little thing, but assume somehow that you couldnt use candelabra or it was banned somehow, how would you go about doing a high tide list personally (this is open to anyone really...)
Many people are interested in this deck and most of them don't have (and don't want to buy) Candles, so this actually comes up often. If you read back twenty or thirty pages you'll see plenty of discussion. Here are some of your options:
Run Cloud Of Faeries with Snap. This version combos fast but the package cuts into your counters so you lose resilience.
Play Remand on your own Brainfreeze. The storm copies are preserved, and you recast Brainfreeze! This is popular in Solidarity builds which use Reset, Snapcaster Mage, and run only instant speed spells to go off on the opponent's turn (usually in response to them killing you).
@Feline: Weird little thing, but assume somehow that you couldnt use candelabra or it was banned somehow, how would you go about doing a high tide list personally (this is open to anyone really...)
Here is a spreadsheet I created that compiled and averaged the successful High Tide deck lists. It is separated between those with Candelabra of Tawnos, and those without. This is a good guide to what has been successful for others.
@Feline: Weird little thing, but assume somehow that you couldnt use candelabra or it was banned somehow, how would you go about doing a high tide list personally (this is open to anyone really...)
Anyone got any tips against OmniTell matchup?
I find it a bit difficult to keep up with the amount of counters that deck seems to have.
I've played against OmniTell deck at least 10 times, but I have not yet come across a viable strategy against it.
The version I went against has FOWs, Misdirections, Daze, Sneak Attack also.
The feature match last night (High Tide vs OmniTell) was a very good example of how the match should be played out imo. OmniTell is definitely advantageous but you have to play to your outs and without any flaws. You role is control, so be the draw-go blue deck amassing counters hoping they'll run their enablers into your counter prematurely. Meanwhile let the combo pieces fall into place as you draw them. When it looks like you've drained their resources go for it. You can't always pull that off but if you play to your outs and play better you can win.
I completely agree with this, I've "at first" had an issue with Omnitell type strats, but in doing different strats against different decks, I learned myself that against this strat especially, you play the control deck. I know I'm just reaffirming the above post, but it's something important and I feel backing up something like this is too important to note the emphasis on it, thank you bilb_o. ^.^
I need a Semi-Budget List from anyone. No Force of Wills, No Candles. Also, what would be the best counter-package without FoW? I have a Spring Tide list right now that I love, but would like to expand it to Time Spirals + Wish board+ better counters. I would prefer not to have to pay for 4 Time Spiral, Pact of Negation, and Flusterstorm. Any tips? Also what would be a good sideboard for my list?
Without Time Spiral I wouldn't recommend trying to push the deck, it's not the same deck without that card. Probably the closest you could even come to pushing a version of High Tide without Time Spiral would be Solidarity, and that requires Reset which is still a $20.00 dollar+ card.
Without Time Spiral I wouldn't recommend trying to push the deck, it's not the same deck without that card. Probably the closest you could even come to pushing a version of High Tide without Time Spiral would be Solidarity, and that requires Reset which is still a $20.00 dollar+ card.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I can afford Time Spiral, but not Force of Wills, Candles, etc. I was wondering what a semi-budget list could look like without those cards, including what counterspell package to run without FoW.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I can afford Time Spiral, but not Force of Wills, Candles, etc. I was wondering what a semi-budget list could look like without those cards, including what counterspell package to run without FoW.
Candles are fine, but the forces may cause some issues...
Pact of Negation is your best bet to fill in, but only on combo turns. While strictly very horrid in my limited testing, Disrupting Shoal can work.... although it can hurt you and be useless a lot.
My advice thus is to go for the pacts and save up for forces as they can enable soooo many decks in the combo/control realm of legacy.
Candles are fine, but the forces may cause some issues...
Pact of Negation is your best bet to fill in, but only on combo turns. While strictly very horrid in my limited testing, Disrupting Shoal can work.... although it can hurt you and be useless a lot.
My advice thus is to go for the pacts and save up for forces as they can enable soooo many decks in the combo/control realm of legacy.
By the way, I don't play competitively at all, just at a club where people have all different kinds of decks, some of them pretty good though. But I won't be playing against any very expensive Tier legacy decks.
Also what do you guys think of the retraced image package?
The thing against these possibly counterspell heavy decks is that you should be turnabouting their lands anyways at the end of the turn before you go off. if you don't, then 2 or 3 is "easily" paid once high tide goes off anyways. spell pierce is more versatile in handling early threats that can potentially lead to a lockout or loss.
i think it's doubtful that they'll counter your brainstorm in response. they are saving their counters for more significant spells....and it also gives the opponent some knowledge of why you're showing them a hand you want them to see.
In theory, what you say is true. You should Turnabout their lands... however, in practice it happens not so often. A good example is RUG Delver which just does not let you time for it. And Turnabout may just be countered as any other spell.
Once High Tide is resolved. It's not 2 or 3 that the opponent will have to pay anymore. 1 HT resolved + another spell + one counter from the opponent = minimum 4 mana with Flusterstorm (double Pierce).
It's hard to "see" the power of Flusterstorm compared to Spell Pierce on a theoretical point of view. However, with practice it was really obvious for me. Since you tested against D&T and MUD I can understand why Flusterstorm seems horrible.
This is not a bad thing, as it means there is one less counter in their hand for your High Tide and Time Spiral.
0-2 vs Jund
Game 1 I just couldn't find any gas. Game 2 I boarded in 3x Remora, but didn't see any of them. My opponent drew all the discard, and I didn't have a strong hand.
1-2 vs TES
Game 1 was awesome, as I went off turn 3 with 2 lands and a Candelabra in play (tap, Tide, tap, untap 2, tap, Tide, Candelabra, tap, untap 2, tap both, Spiral). Played a third land, and actually generated enough mana to Blue Sun. For game 2 and 3, I brought in Mystic Remora. Game 2 I played it on turn 1. My opponent played no spells for 4 turns, allowing me to play my lands and 1 mana cantrips. I Spiral, get enough mana for lethal, but no way to kill, so I Spiral again. It leaves me with a Ponder, which finds nothing, and I fizzle. Game 3 I misplayed.
1-2 vs Burn
He admits to having an awkward list since he's borrowing the deck. Game 1 I go off rather safely, winning with 4 life left. I bring Remora again for games 2 and 3 (they play a lot of noncreatures, and it puts cards into my hand quickly). Game 2 I find nothing that quick and die. Game 3 I play a turn 1 Remora and start drawing a bunch of cards. Thankfully in the first 5 turns, I go through at least 15 cards and find 2 land. I can't do anything relevant, and I die.
Overall I love Mystic Remora, it's awesome in some matches. I'll continue to test with it. Today was just some bad draws and some misplays, so I can get over that.
Alas, I am not at SCG Edison (if that's what you thought). I'll be at SCG DC in another month.
Also I have lost against goblins, you play enough against anything, it's gonna get you, though it hurts to lose that match!
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyMany people are interested in this deck and most of them don't have (and don't want to buy) Candles, so this actually comes up often. If you read back twenty or thirty pages you'll see plenty of discussion. Here are some of your options:
- Run Cloud Of Faeries with Snap. This version combos fast but the package cuts into your counters so you lose resilience.
- Play Remand on your own Brainfreeze. The storm copies are preserved, and you recast Brainfreeze! This is popular in Solidarity builds which use Reset, Snapcaster Mage, and run only instant speed spells to go off on the opponent's turn (usually in response to them killing you).
- Play Retraced Image for extra land drops. Some decks splash a Tropical Island (plus extra fetches) for Explore instead (don't fetch the Tropical Island till your combo turn).
Personally before I got Candles I ran Twincast. I liked it so much I've kept one main and one in the board.https://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
Here is a spreadsheet I created that compiled and averaged the successful High Tide deck lists. It is separated between those with Candelabra of Tawnos, and those without. This is a good guide to what has been successful for others.
Here's a list that got second in a large tournament at the end of last year
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=4112&d=224099
his time spirals got surgically extracted and he still won with great play....on his way to semis now
Update:
Game 3...Michael goes off 2 islands and 2 candles in play facing death the next turn.... crazy!!!!
With Turnabout extracted...
needing to spiral 2-3 times? i think??/
he advances to finals!
I find it a bit difficult to keep up with the amount of counters that deck seems to have.
I've played against OmniTell deck at least 10 times, but I have not yet come across a viable strategy against it.
The version I went against has FOWs, Misdirections, Daze, Sneak Attack also.
I completely agree with this, I've "at first" had an issue with Omnitell type strats, but in doing different strats against different decks, I learned myself that against this strat especially, you play the control deck. I know I'm just reaffirming the above post, but it's something important and I feel backing up something like this is too important to note the emphasis on it, thank you bilb_o. ^.^
Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I can afford Time Spiral, but not Force of Wills, Candles, etc. I was wondering what a semi-budget list could look like without those cards, including what counterspell package to run without FoW.
Candles are fine, but the forces may cause some issues...
Pact of Negation is your best bet to fill in, but only on combo turns. While strictly very horrid in my limited testing, Disrupting Shoal can work.... although it can hurt you and be useless a lot.
My advice thus is to go for the pacts and save up for forces as they can enable soooo many decks in the combo/control realm of legacy.
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyBy the way, I don't play competitively at all, just at a club where people have all different kinds of decks, some of them pretty good though. But I won't be playing against any very expensive Tier legacy decks.
Also what do you guys think of the retraced image package?