Zirath is absolutely right about the fact that Dredge isn't played that much because of that kind of stigma. But that doesn't mean that Dredge does poorly at tourneys because it's a bad deck.
This is just the thing. Dredge isn't a bad deck; it is in terms of sheer potential probably the most powerful deck in the format. It can win on turn 2 without fearing permission. It consistently top 8s in smaller events. If you go to an SCG Open and ask how many people play Dredge, its a tiny amount because everyone wants to play Combo, Permission or Wasteland.
One of my hopes is that in the next year people become educated about the nature of Dredge better and understand what it is instead of just throwing fire at it.
Yeah I agree, Dredge has to be one of if not the most powerful deck that can be played in Legacy right now. It wins more game 1s than any other deck, even ANT and High Tide, because of maindecked discard spells. But Dredge's power works against it, because people are forced to sideboard at least four anti-Dredge cards just in case they run up against a deck, and people do this even when Dredge isn't being played much. Therefore Dredge is never played much, because hate is so rampant. Combined with the fact that the hate is also playable against other decks (cards like Extirpate and Relic of Progenitus) and it's a dangerous time to be a Dredge pilot imo.
I know everyone is going to claim that Dredge can still fight even with all the hate, and that the only reason it isn't placing a ton now is that not enough people are piloting it. First off, I would say that no deck, not even Dredge, can survive if there is too much hate in the meta. I am not sure if this is currently the case though, b/c like I said most decks only have 4 sideboard slots worth of cards that can beat the deck. But, I am skeptical that it is easy for a Dredge player to fight through such hate. For one, the deck still has to run properly on its own, and it always has a non-zero chance of fizzling. It may be true that a really experienced Dredge player can win against any sort of hate, but again I'm skeptical. And even if this is true, most people are not really experienced Dredge players, so the deck isn't going to have many pilots, and probably won't place very often. It's kind of a vicious cycle that won't quit until people play less hate, which may or may not ever happen. Survival being gone is a very good thing for Dredge (even though it could be Survival) because Survival was another huge reason for people to play graveyard hate.
Personally, I am trying to decide whether I should dedicate a lot of time to Dredge in order to hopefully master it, or if that time wouldn't be better spent practicing and playing with other decks like Zoo, Merfolk, Junk, etc (which I own) or Bant or NO Show (which I am looking to acquire the lands for). It's a hard choice.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
IMO, too much hate would be more than 6 dedicated anti-graveyard sideboard cards (which happened during the Survival era). In my experience at least, dredge can deal with 4 graveyard hate cards boarded in during postboard games (if played correctly of course).
Izor: nice work on the 2nd place. It seems like he deck gave you good hands, which is something it doesnt always do for me(more often I mull a lot more than I like). I understand mulligans are a huge part of playing the deck. I played dredge exclusively for a few tournaments quite some time ago. I placed 9th a few times, just not able to get into the top8. It just seemed like the deck was not kind to me.
Here's an example how Dredge simply wins pre-board. It still wins, although the pilot did a bunch of mistakes and the opponent has an active Thopter-Sword combo for several turns.
In game 2 the Dredge pilot makes mistakes again. He doesn't have to lose that one, despite double Ensnaring Bridge, Thopter-Sword online and a Nihil Spellbomb.
In game 3 he would win if he had some more time. And guess what? His opponent would lose although he has Thopter-Sword again, as well as another Spellbomb.
Obviously, Dredge doesn't fold to hate. Even if the opponent has an active combo on the field and the Dredge pilot makes several mistakes.
And Shaboogs is right. 'Hate Dredge out' requires at the very least 6-8 side board slots, and no competitive deck which wants to be prepared for a whole tournament can afford that much.
In Game 1 of the match, David Gearhart would have won easily if he had nabbed all 4 Bridge from Belows. An active Thopter Foundry+Sword of the Meek can hold off Ichorids + 2-3 other creatures for approximately infinity turns. The odds aren't 100% that Gearhart wins if he holds the Engineered Explosives longer, since Drew could have generated lethal zombies off of 3 Bridge From Below, but he had to mill more Narcomoeba to do so when Gearhart actually did pop the EE. The result: Gearhart probably could have gotten all Bridges and all zombie tokens. Popping it when he did was a clear mis-play.
Edit: As to the general viability of Dredge, I think we can agree that it's worst against Tempo decks (draw-dependent) and fast combo (not very draw-dependent). Tribal decks can be problematic, although there's a good deal of variation there. It's best in a field full of slow control, slow aggro, and inconsistent combo (depending on pilot skill, this generally includes decks like Belcher and Spanish Inquisition). Against this (ideal) field, Dredge wins through moderately high speed combined with a high level of consistency.
However, this is not the field we face at the moment, at least in the U.S.. The primary decks to beat are primarily tempo (Stifle/Wasteland being the premiere disruption core) decks and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn decks. Those that don't fit these categories tend to be Knight of the Reliquary decks.
In the current environment, tempo decks have a large amount of game against us, as their disruption tends to buy enough time that their clocks are the inevitable ones, rather than ours. Despite this, matches will remain close and likely involve typical battles over hate.
Knight of the Reliquary decks, however, are a serious problem. A tremendous clock that also fetches Bojuka Bog is extremely good against Dredge, and they only need a sub-optimal draw from Dredge or minor disruption from their deck (say, a 1cc creature and a Fireblast) to 'turn on' Knight's fetch ability.
Emrakul decks present a similar clock to our own, but with a greater amount of countermagic/equivalent elements. While a single hit from Emrakul is unlikely to end a Dredge player (depending on the mana-base!), it is still a 2-turn clock unless we control an abundance of creatures (including some Narcomoeba).
What sort of decks might prey on this field? The answer is quite clear: fast combo. With slow combo and tempo being the main decks at the moment, quicker combo decks that can power through a turn of disruption or demolish an opponent will win. If Dredge is to be played at all, a high-speed LED build is probably the right call (for the first time in a long time).
The problem: Tendrils of Agony decks have the speed, consistency, and Doomsday-backup to be a dominating force right now. The hate and metagaming that prevents that from happening inflicts only minor splash damage on dredge, but when Tendrils can beat Counterbalance, the metagame hole that Dredge previously filled disappears.
Edit 2:
The Merfolk matchup is one of the worst for Dredge, in my experience. Naturally, this depends heavily on the amount of hate and on pilot skill. Typically, 'folk runs at least some Relic of Progenitus (to counteract Tarmogoyf) and often a singleton of another hate card or two. Given this tolerable basis of hate, the Merfolk player simply works to protect these cards, counter a critical spell or two (slowing Dredge down), and lay down aggro beats. This is often enough to steal a win. Keep in mind that some obscure interactions are often utilized by clever Merfolk players; ex: targeting your own Mutavault with Wasteland, or your own spell with Cursecatcher.
In Game 1 of the match, David Gearhart would have won easily if he had nabbed all 4 Bridge from Belows. An active Thopter Foundry+Sword of the Meek can hold off Ichorids + 2-3 other creatures for approximately infinity turns. The odds aren't 100% that Gearhart wins if he holds the Engineered Explosives longer, since Drew could have generated lethal zombies off of 3 Bridge From Below, but he had to mill more Narcomoeba to do so when Gearhart actually did pop the EE. The result: Gearhart probably could have gotten all Bridges and all zombie tokens. Popping it when he did was a clear mis-play.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense assuming that Drew was a moron. If I were Drew I'd get 3, cabal therapy. And pass the f-ing turn. he had 2 ichorids in there. If he doesn't pop the EE, I'll gladly force him too by just slow playing and ammassing an army my 2/2 army > your 1/1 army. As proven by Drew going on to win the match.
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Asking people to remove quotes in their signatures is tyranny! If I can't say something just because someone's feelings are hurt then no one would ever be able to say anything! Political correctness is stupid.
Omph, what terrible playing. Everyone is trying to play the deck, Drew, David, the judge, completely ridiculous. This is not how a good pilot runs Dredge. You have to be confident in your playing to play this deck honestly; there is clearly a lapse in Drew's piloting. And this is typical for the commentators; they have no knowledge of legacy. It has been proven time and time again. They cannot understand decks that don't win with two card combos, Vial or Tarmogoyf.
Merfolk is an excellent match up for me. My losses come from when opponents draw things like triple Wasteland, double Force and I have a slow hand. Tempo is really only bad when they draw very well.
For me, Storm and control decks with MD stalling like Enchantress tend to be problematic. Enchantress, Lands, Quinn and similar. Game 1 is really tough if they land Ground Seal and Elephant Grass for example and it gets even worse when other decks start playing out their defensive cards.
Alright, let me initiate something here. The match ups. I'm gonna list them all and make rough estimates on game 1 with a light description; game 2 is most likely almost the same for all of them if you board correctly. This is all a thought experiment, however, so do not put a huge amount of stock into it; I will comment on decks that I have know a little more about:
Proven:
Goblins - Favorable; Goblins no longer plays Mogg Fanatic, so they are required to have Siege-Gang, Incinerator or Sharpshooter ready to stop Bridge from Below. Since we picked up Iona, playing her out quick can lock them out hard. Our discard dorks block Lackey all day, which is a great trade for us. If they go Wasteland nuts with Vial down on turn 1 or we have a horrible Dredge, game 1 is probably ours.
Death and Taxes - Slightly Favorable?; I don't know this match up well considering I have never seen anyone play it around me. I can imagine that they can win the long game with Karakas, Vial + Mangara and Jotun Grunt to answer Iona. If we get a quick FKZ play, however, I don't believe they have a MD answer to it and will probably either scoop it up or struggle for a turn to answer it. I can ask the resident expert Finn if he has any insight on this.
Junk - Slightly Favorable?; Another match up I don't know well. I can try to test it since it is definitely on the rise (grats to Eli) but discard is weak against us. They definitely have answers, but they don't interact at all with our early game plan and they definitely fold to Iona without Go for the Throat.
Landstill - Slightly Favorable?; I'm pretty sure Ichorid negates any benefit this deck can provide. We can play around this deck pretty well with smart decision making honestly. They don't have an answer to slowly building a Zombie army with Ichorid without breaking their own Standstill.
Zoo - Slightly Favorable; I can definitely test this a lot in the near future (two Zoo players in my area) but I know it is good for us. They have to burn their own creatures to deal with Bridge and must use up 3-4 cards to kill off Iona. Ichorid trades with almost all of their men and they cannot even answer Gravetroll. They can race with us, but its definitely uphill.
Fish - Favorable; I have play this match up a good amount and it is in our favor. Fish needs to constantly draw gas to keep up. They have 0 answer to Ichorid+Bridge recursion, unlike Goblins, which really hurts them. They have answers to Dread Return and the combo initiation, but it is not enough to stop us if you play well.
ThopterSword - Favorable?; We saw Drew with the win in his match up a couple times and he didn't know he had it. They do not interact with us at all since they try to react to our plays.
CounterTop - Favorable?; This is the same ThopterSword really. Either they get blown out by Iona or by FKZ. Goyf and Firespout are not a huge concern for us.
Bant - Favorable?; They could lay down turn 3 Progenitus and that is about it. Otherwise they have to fight tooth and nail to fully lock us out.
Competitive:
Affinity - Slightly Favorable?; They can put men in their yards with ease and a turn 2 Etched Oracle with Cranial Plating is unpleasant. They have the speed of Zoo and are immune to Iona.
Burn - Favorable; They have to make 2 for 1s a lot and they waste a tremendous amount of resources to deal with our plan. Having been at both ends of this match up, I can tell you it ain't pretty for Burn. They can win, but its not easy.
Elves - Favorable; They don't interact AT ALL like the other primary aggro decks. This makes this match up usually a game 1 autowin unless they get us in a race. We have to Dredge pretty poorly for that though.
Lands - Even?; Iona is moot here and FKZ can be stopped by Glacial Chasm lock. If we play quick, we can probably win before they assemble their protection.
Breakfast - Even; Its a race. And like all combo-like matchups, its whoever gets there first.
Enchantress - Slightly Favorable; They can lock us out with the right cards but they play purely during their turn so we can win if they don't get set up quickly enough.
High Tide - Slightly Favorable?; If we put Iona on blue, they lose immediately. They can slow us down a little bit with Turnabout and FoW, but ultimately, I think we have an edge here.
Sneak Show - Even; This is essentially a combo deck, so its the same as Breakfast.
ANT/TES - Even; See Breakfast.
Tempo Thresh - Slightly Favorable; This is about the same as Fish, but they have removal. They don't have Cursecatcher on the other hand, which is good for us. This makes Iona worse but FKZ better since they have a harder time binning a creature.
Team America - Slightly Favorable; Another Tempo deck with Wastelands. This is probably the best of the three big ones since they have discard, which is weaker against us.
Two things should be remembered with these guesses I have made; I could be completely wrong as these are all based on logical guesses. In addition, I assumed that the Dredge player is playing correctly. This is almost never the case. I doubt we will see these results in 10 games, but we probably will in 100-150 games.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense assuming that Drew was a moron. If I were Drew I'd get 3, cabal therapy. And pass the f-ing turn. he had 2 ichorids in there. If he doesn't pop the EE, I'll gladly force him too by just slow playing and ammassing an army my 2/2 army > your 1/1 army. As proven by Drew going on to win the match.
You do realize that Engineered Explosives for 0 destroys zombie tokens, right? Drew won the match because Gearhart popped the EE too early and allowed him to build up a zombie army off of a single Bridge from Below.
I didn't say David would be 100% to win if he waited, I said he would be better off. I think that's pretty clearly the case.
Edit:
In my opinion, Dredge has matchups like this:
Slow Blue Control (Landstill, CounterTop): Extremely favorable. They have the ability to protect hate, but this doesn't overcome the fact that their deck is weak against ours.
Prison (Enchantress, Stax, etc.): Favorable to Extremely Favorable. Enchantress is pretty even, as they can potentially lock you out with Humility before you win (following Elephant Grass, of course). Otherwise, you can beat them before their board control comes down or with Vindicate creatures. If no such creatures are run, this entire category can shift to unfavorable.
Low-interactivity Aggro (Zoo, many builds of Junk): Somewhat favorable. They are much better able to leverage hate cards towards victory than the blue decks, but their deck choice is still fundamentally weak against ours.
High-interactivity Aggro (Tribal, DnT): About even. Depending on sideboards, this can go either way. They're mostly trying to aggro you out with just enough incidental disruption and hate to steal a win. Pilot skill matters a great deal here.
Slow combo: Even to favorable. We speed up many of their clocks with a life-draining manabase and self-mill, but we're also about the right speed to beat them.
Fast combo: Unfavorable. Decks like Belcher (usually), TES (always), Elves (usually; this is probably the closest), etc. are either much faster or just fast enough to beat us.
Tempo: Slightly unfavorable. They excel at stealing wins, and the only bad discard in their deck is Hymn to Tourach. Duress is never bad for them, and Thoughtseize is only bad when our hand is terrible. More generally, their disruption elements add up to buy them time. It's essential that Dredge never really gets into high gear, or else they've lost. These matchups can depend heavily on hate cards.
Thanks for your thoughts on this ajfirecracker. Though I personally disagree with Tempo decks, I can see your point on this as well. Duress isn't always good. The only cards they can safely hit are Careful Study and Breakthrough. If we aren't holding either, then their play is dead and only benefits us honestly. I think Tempo is a weaker match up than others simply because they are built to just answer their opponents. If they do not draw the proper tools, it can fall apart easily. I think it is very draw dependent, but with a good draw/enough time, Tempo will eventually win.
We can steal wins from Storm with a strong dredge. ANT/TES can't really stop us from winning on turn 2-3 and vice versa. Early Iona spells game for these decks pretty consistently (naming black obviously, red in the case of Belcher and green for Elves). Its a race and either side can win imo. They have a slightly edge in their consistency.
Generally I find Ancestor's Chosen to be sub-par due to them IGG looping for infinite, or just storming for a million due to casting Ad Nauseum from 20 life and drawing the whole deck. Primus/Terastodon are as good as advertised.
I've never won a game with T0 Leyline of Sanctity vs ANT/TES. Once they get going, it's just trivial for them to Truth it.
Tried Thorn of Amethyst. Bad, even when landing. It has the same problems as using mana for CT: it slows you down a whole turn. When the game lasts 3 turns max, using one of them to possibly hit a card isn't worth doing. This is why Duress + CT didn't work either.
Currently trying Mindbreak Trap even though many have recommended against it. My theory is that I am rarely Duress'ed, and my opponents don't play around it online. It should be significantly worse in G3 since the surprise is gone, but it'll at least force them to side in something/anything and in all likelihood slow them down a turn.
Generally I find Ancestor's Chosen to be sub-par due to them IGG looping for infinite, or just storming for a million due to casting Ad Nauseum from 20 life and drawing the whole deck. Primus/Terastodon are as good as advertised
How can you Igg loop for infinite? I thought the change to wish prevents that.
I'd rather have Ancestor's Chosen against ANT/TES than something that destroys permanents, since they can go from having nothing on the table to winning, but it's very hard for them to do more than 20 damage. Iona is also pretty good but if you don't name black they can still go off, whereas if you do name black you just set them back a turn as they will Wish for Chain of Vapor and bounce her. Then again, if you have a discard outlet and another Dread Return, Iona does the job.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
I'd rather have Ancestor's Chosen against ANT/TES than something that destroys permanents, since they can go from having nothing on the table to winning, but it's very hard for them to do more than 20 damage. Iona is also pretty good but if you don't name black they can still go off, whereas if you do name black you just set them back a turn as they will Wish for Chain of Vapor and bounce her. Then again, if you have a discard outlet and another Dread Return, Iona does the job.
Um, I'm pretty sure that ANT/TES can't wish for Chain. They have to have been smart enough to board it in.
They can't wish for Chain but some lists run an Eye of Nowhere, especially to remove Iona. Thing is, if you get to DR Iona against them you'll also have a Therapy at hand. Therapy them for Burning Wish and drop Iona on black. There's no way they can handle that before Iona kills them.
I think I mentioned this in the primer. If you play Therapy correctly you can essentially never lose with Iona.
Right, Eye of Nowhere. But that is true, I think Therapy on Wish followed by Iona is game, set, match.
That said, is Iona in the maindeck the way to go? FKZ makes it for me, but Iona isn't an instant win against everyone so I'm wondering if I should run Sphinx instead (or even River Kelpie?) and have Iona in the board for the MUs where she auto-wins.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
Right, Eye of Nowhere. But that is true, I think Therapy on Wish followed by Iona is game, set, match.
That said, is Iona in the maindeck the way to go? FKZ makes it for me, but Iona isn't an instant win against everyone so I'm wondering if I should run Sphinx instead (or even River Kelpie?) and have Iona in the board for the MUs where she auto-wins.
Iona + FKZ wins a larger number of match ups than FKZ + Sphinx. Sphinx makes you win faster; that's all.
For example, FKZ + Sphinx scoops to Elephant Grass.
Fair point... I suppose Iona on green would be better in that situation against enchantress. But doesn't that sort of situation just make Angel of Despair look better? I find it hard to decide between the big hitters (other than FKZ who I think always makes the cut), but I think you're probably right that Iona is the call.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
Fair point... I suppose Iona on green would be better in that situation against enchantress. But doesn't that sort of situation just make Angel of Despair look better? I find it hard to decide between the big hitters (other than FKZ who I think always makes the cut), but I think you're probably right that Iona is the call.
No, White is still correct. Their only out is Karakas or a very big Words of War at that point.
I think enchantress is a bad MU for dredge. I haven't won a game against it but I've only faced it once in my entire tournament experience with dredge. The best way to win against it is if they don't play Elephant Grass / Ground Seal on the first 2-3 turns and we go for the super combo finish route.
So I'm bringing this list to a tournament tomorrow and test if it can have the same success like the traditional list that I've been using:
I've made a couple of tweaks from the original list in the primer. During playtest/goldfish sessions, I've noticed that I usually mulligan hands without a gold land so I increased the count to 11. I've also tweaked the configuration of my draw/discard spells to 4 Careful Study, 3 Cephalid Coliseum, and 2 Tireless Tribe making my Discard count to 10 (Study, PImp, Tribe) and increase the Draw to 11 (Breakthrough, Study, Coliseum). Iona is there on the sideboard for combo. So far it's been performing well but the best way to really find out is when I test it in an actual tournament.
I think enchantress is a bad MU for dredge. I haven't won a game against it but I've only faced it once in my entire tournament experience with dredge. The best way to win against it is if they don't play Elephant Grass / Ground Seal on the first 2-3 turns and we go for the super combo finish route.
So I'm bringing this list to a tournament tomorrow and test if it can have the same success like the traditional list that I've been using:
I've made a couple of tweaks from the original list in the primer. During playtest/goldfish sessions, I've noticed that I usually mulligan hands without a gold land so I increased the count to 11. I've also tweaked the configuration of my draw/discard spells to 4 Careful Study, 3 Cephalid Coliseum, and 2 Tireless Tribe making my Discard count to 10 (Study, PImp, Tribe) and increase the Draw to 11 (Breakthrough, Study, Coliseum). Iona is there on the sideboard for combo. So far it's been performing well but the best way to really find out is when I test it in an actual tournament.
4 Coliseums has to be the right call here... other than that, looks pretty solid (though I barely know Dredge and am just trying to get into it). Sun Titan seems really interesting to me, I actually brought it up to someone just the other day. I didn't want to say it to too many people because I'm not sure if it does enough. What do you normally get with it, a Stinkweed Imp? Too bad FKZ doesn't cost 3.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
I started with 4 Coliseums during the early stages of testing (see opening post). Coliseum is more like Breakthrough (which is usually an "I win" card when resolved) for me but since I'm running Undiscovered Paradise I felt that (after initial testing) I could drop 1 copy of Coliseum for Careful Study so that I can improve my turn 2 plays because I can cast a turn 2 Careful Study with Paradise as compared to not being able to activate Coliseum with Paradise on turn 2 (assuming I played an outlet on turn 1). Having Careful Study as a discard outlet also works if I had Careful Study, Coliseum, and Paradise in my opening since I can play Coliseum into Study on turn 1 then activate Coliseum with Paradise on turn 2 (assuming I can reach threshold by turn 2).
Sun Titan reanimates a land (usually undiscovered paradise or coliseum so that I can dredge some more) to trigger landfall and bring bloodghasts back so that I can flashback another dread return and make more zombies. During postboard games, a reanimated Sun Titan can also get Stinkweed Imps and Tribes for defense and Golgari Thugs for the recurring Narcomoeba trick (if left unchecked).
Excellent primer. I would also like to make note of Street Wraith: free, instant speed dredger that can also be used as Ichorid fodder. I've found it quite effective.
On paper, it looked like a bad dredge deck but the results proved otherwise. I liked the Trickster Mage as a 1CMC blue permanent discard outlet that even Coliseum can cast even though you could only discard one card at a time. it could also be used like a Rishadan Port to provide dredge with some sort of control to set up the kill turn. I think it's worth testing.
So a couple things I notice immediately about this list that are pertinent to discussion:
1) 4 Dread Return targets (1 FKZ, 2 Sphinx, 1 Iona)
2) 9 Dredgers (4 Troll, 4 Imp, 1 Thug, I have trouble counting Salvage tbh)
3) 6 Discard outs (4 Putrid Imp, 2 Trickster Mage) which only require UB mana base
4) 3 Brainstorm over 2 Breakthrough
5) Only 3 Dread Returns despite the large number of targets
6) The sideboard is all sorts of awkward; Null Rod could easily be Pithing Needle if you think you can call well, 4 DR Targets, 2 of which function almost identically (Chosen and Archon), Aura Thief, which doesn't really change anything (you could blow out Enchantress at best), Emrakul who really only resets your Narcomoebas (I'm guessing this was to combat High Tide). Over all, there are 10 cards to combat hate, only 4 of which work against Leyline but the rest combat everything else well.
The fact that you can't play certain answers from your graveyard means you have to draw into them. This does increase the utility of Brainstorm in the deck since your draws become relevant.
Overall its an awkward list, but I think the rogue factor from Trickster Mage definitely helped him squeeze out games he shouldn't have. I think I understand the rational to play her and let me detail both pros and cons of her real quick:
Pros
1) Can be used to tap down permanents. This has enormous utility. It can shut down cards including but not limited to:
Serra Sanctum or lands with multiple Wild Growth, Rishadan Port, Any Crypt effect, Lands and creatures that can cause major boo-boos (Knight, Goyf, Fish, Tombstalker, can't hit Piledriver though T_T) and even chumper blockers when you are trying to beat with a Troll.
I think that is a big deal in general.
2) It can still provide a free discard if you untap the land or multiple discards if you tap all your lands and untap the Mage.
Cons
1) It needs a turn to work, so it is susceptible to creature removal. Actually, this a big deal since we make creature removal awkward with our current creature base.
2) It doesn't feed Ichorid (granted Tribe didn't either but Tribe was immune to all removal except Bolt) so it forces
The list is definitely awkward but I think there is something there. So let me go ahead and make my changes:
- At least 2 Dread Return targets, this is just simply too many. I'd say cut to 1 River Kelpie and 1 FKZ to start
1 Dakmor Salvage, 3 Underground Sea -> 4 Darkslick Shores; this is a budget thing obviously but there is no difference between these two in our deck. There is also no reason we should suffer Choke splash damage. I think the second Salvage is irrelevant since it only comes out when you want to get back Ghasts.
For the 2 slots I opened up, I think they should go to either more Trickster Mage or another Bloodghast and another Thug.
I worry that the removal of Ichorid completely is deck changing. Ichorid lets Dredge put on pressure without using many resources. I guess this just needs to be tested a little to see where we should be going. I definitely want to try this UB list but I don't know if I can give up Ichorid quite yet.
I think this is our first big discussion on this thread. Let's make it a good one. I feel the age of Dredge is about to begin (well not literally I just kinda hope).
A very interesting build. I can't say that I like it, for I'm not a fan of Bloodghast in general and I'm also not sold on UB mana bases. But anyway, the success proves that there definitely is room for creativity and that there's not like 58 cards in the deck that can't be changed at all. I'm curious if lists like this top8 some more in the future.
But I definitely hate Trickster Mage. The big advantage of PImp and Tribe is that they still work as enablers, even if they get removed. This Mage begs for removal, which will make it completely useless. I'd rather play Hapless Researcher I think. Maybe I'll test it some time though.
I don't like her much either, but I think there are metas where she excels and it also eliminates the need to go 5 color, which I think the only big loss from that is Firestorm. Stifle, Needle/Rod, Chain and Echoing Truth clearly answer everything else pretty efficiently. As I said before, Turbulent Dreams or Sickening Dreams are the only replacements we have in UB.
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This is just the thing. Dredge isn't a bad deck; it is in terms of sheer potential probably the most powerful deck in the format. It can win on turn 2 without fearing permission. It consistently top 8s in smaller events. If you go to an SCG Open and ask how many people play Dredge, its a tiny amount because everyone wants to play Combo, Permission or Wasteland.
One of my hopes is that in the next year people become educated about the nature of Dredge better and understand what it is instead of just throwing fire at it.
I know everyone is going to claim that Dredge can still fight even with all the hate, and that the only reason it isn't placing a ton now is that not enough people are piloting it. First off, I would say that no deck, not even Dredge, can survive if there is too much hate in the meta. I am not sure if this is currently the case though, b/c like I said most decks only have 4 sideboard slots worth of cards that can beat the deck. But, I am skeptical that it is easy for a Dredge player to fight through such hate. For one, the deck still has to run properly on its own, and it always has a non-zero chance of fizzling. It may be true that a really experienced Dredge player can win against any sort of hate, but again I'm skeptical. And even if this is true, most people are not really experienced Dredge players, so the deck isn't going to have many pilots, and probably won't place very often. It's kind of a vicious cycle that won't quit until people play less hate, which may or may not ever happen. Survival being gone is a very good thing for Dredge (even though it could be Survival) because Survival was another huge reason for people to play graveyard hate.
Personally, I am trying to decide whether I should dedicate a lot of time to Dredge in order to hopefully master it, or if that time wouldn't be better spent practicing and playing with other decks like Zoo, Merfolk, Junk, etc (which I own) or Bant or NO Show (which I am looking to acquire the lands for). It's a hard choice.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
In Game 1 of the match, David Gearhart would have won easily if he had nabbed all 4 Bridge from Belows. An active Thopter Foundry+Sword of the Meek can hold off Ichorids + 2-3 other creatures for approximately infinity turns. The odds aren't 100% that Gearhart wins if he holds the Engineered Explosives longer, since Drew could have generated lethal zombies off of 3 Bridge From Below, but he had to mill more Narcomoeba to do so when Gearhart actually did pop the EE. The result: Gearhart probably could have gotten all Bridges and all zombie tokens. Popping it when he did was a clear mis-play.
Edit: As to the general viability of Dredge, I think we can agree that it's worst against Tempo decks (draw-dependent) and fast combo (not very draw-dependent). Tribal decks can be problematic, although there's a good deal of variation there. It's best in a field full of slow control, slow aggro, and inconsistent combo (depending on pilot skill, this generally includes decks like Belcher and Spanish Inquisition). Against this (ideal) field, Dredge wins through moderately high speed combined with a high level of consistency.
However, this is not the field we face at the moment, at least in the U.S.. The primary decks to beat are primarily tempo (Stifle/Wasteland being the premiere disruption core) decks and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn decks. Those that don't fit these categories tend to be Knight of the Reliquary decks.
In the current environment, tempo decks have a large amount of game against us, as their disruption tends to buy enough time that their clocks are the inevitable ones, rather than ours. Despite this, matches will remain close and likely involve typical battles over hate.
Knight of the Reliquary decks, however, are a serious problem. A tremendous clock that also fetches Bojuka Bog is extremely good against Dredge, and they only need a sub-optimal draw from Dredge or minor disruption from their deck (say, a 1cc creature and a Fireblast) to 'turn on' Knight's fetch ability.
Emrakul decks present a similar clock to our own, but with a greater amount of countermagic/equivalent elements. While a single hit from Emrakul is unlikely to end a Dredge player (depending on the mana-base!), it is still a 2-turn clock unless we control an abundance of creatures (including some Narcomoeba).
What sort of decks might prey on this field? The answer is quite clear: fast combo. With slow combo and tempo being the main decks at the moment, quicker combo decks that can power through a turn of disruption or demolish an opponent will win. If Dredge is to be played at all, a high-speed LED build is probably the right call (for the first time in a long time).
The problem: Tendrils of Agony decks have the speed, consistency, and Doomsday-backup to be a dominating force right now. The hate and metagaming that prevents that from happening inflicts only minor splash damage on dredge, but when Tendrils can beat Counterbalance, the metagame hole that Dredge previously filled disappears.
Edit 2:
The Merfolk matchup is one of the worst for Dredge, in my experience. Naturally, this depends heavily on the amount of hate and on pilot skill. Typically, 'folk runs at least some Relic of Progenitus (to counteract Tarmogoyf) and often a singleton of another hate card or two. Given this tolerable basis of hate, the Merfolk player simply works to protect these cards, counter a critical spell or two (slowing Dredge down), and lay down aggro beats. This is often enough to steal a win. Keep in mind that some obscure interactions are often utilized by clever Merfolk players; ex: targeting your own Mutavault with Wasteland, or your own spell with Cursecatcher.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense assuming that Drew was a moron. If I were Drew I'd get 3, cabal therapy. And pass the f-ing turn. he had 2 ichorids in there. If he doesn't pop the EE, I'll gladly force him too by just slow playing and ammassing an army my 2/2 army > your 1/1 army. As proven by Drew going on to win the match.
Merfolk is an excellent match up for me. My losses come from when opponents draw things like triple Wasteland, double Force and I have a slow hand. Tempo is really only bad when they draw very well.
For me, Storm and control decks with MD stalling like Enchantress tend to be problematic. Enchantress, Lands, Quinn and similar. Game 1 is really tough if they land Ground Seal and Elephant Grass for example and it gets even worse when other decks start playing out their defensive cards.
Proven:
Goblins - Favorable; Goblins no longer plays Mogg Fanatic, so they are required to have Siege-Gang, Incinerator or Sharpshooter ready to stop Bridge from Below. Since we picked up Iona, playing her out quick can lock them out hard. Our discard dorks block Lackey all day, which is a great trade for us. If they go Wasteland nuts with Vial down on turn 1 or we have a horrible Dredge, game 1 is probably ours.
Death and Taxes - Slightly Favorable?; I don't know this match up well considering I have never seen anyone play it around me. I can imagine that they can win the long game with Karakas, Vial + Mangara and Jotun Grunt to answer Iona. If we get a quick FKZ play, however, I don't believe they have a MD answer to it and will probably either scoop it up or struggle for a turn to answer it. I can ask the resident expert Finn if he has any insight on this.
Junk - Slightly Favorable?; Another match up I don't know well. I can try to test it since it is definitely on the rise (grats to Eli) but discard is weak against us. They definitely have answers, but they don't interact at all with our early game plan and they definitely fold to Iona without Go for the Throat.
Landstill - Slightly Favorable?; I'm pretty sure Ichorid negates any benefit this deck can provide. We can play around this deck pretty well with smart decision making honestly. They don't have an answer to slowly building a Zombie army with Ichorid without breaking their own Standstill.
Zoo - Slightly Favorable; I can definitely test this a lot in the near future (two Zoo players in my area) but I know it is good for us. They have to burn their own creatures to deal with Bridge and must use up 3-4 cards to kill off Iona. Ichorid trades with almost all of their men and they cannot even answer Gravetroll. They can race with us, but its definitely uphill.
Fish - Favorable; I have play this match up a good amount and it is in our favor. Fish needs to constantly draw gas to keep up. They have 0 answer to Ichorid+Bridge recursion, unlike Goblins, which really hurts them. They have answers to Dread Return and the combo initiation, but it is not enough to stop us if you play well.
ThopterSword - Favorable?; We saw Drew with the win in his match up a couple times and he didn't know he had it. They do not interact with us at all since they try to react to our plays.
CounterTop - Favorable?; This is the same ThopterSword really. Either they get blown out by Iona or by FKZ. Goyf and Firespout are not a huge concern for us.
Bant - Favorable?; They could lay down turn 3 Progenitus and that is about it. Otherwise they have to fight tooth and nail to fully lock us out.
Competitive:
Affinity - Slightly Favorable?; They can put men in their yards with ease and a turn 2 Etched Oracle with Cranial Plating is unpleasant. They have the speed of Zoo and are immune to Iona.
Burn - Favorable; They have to make 2 for 1s a lot and they waste a tremendous amount of resources to deal with our plan. Having been at both ends of this match up, I can tell you it ain't pretty for Burn. They can win, but its not easy.
Elves - Favorable; They don't interact AT ALL like the other primary aggro decks. This makes this match up usually a game 1 autowin unless they get us in a race. We have to Dredge pretty poorly for that though.
Lands - Even?; Iona is moot here and FKZ can be stopped by Glacial Chasm lock. If we play quick, we can probably win before they assemble their protection.
Breakfast - Even; Its a race. And like all combo-like matchups, its whoever gets there first.
Enchantress - Slightly Favorable; They can lock us out with the right cards but they play purely during their turn so we can win if they don't get set up quickly enough.
High Tide - Slightly Favorable?; If we put Iona on blue, they lose immediately. They can slow us down a little bit with Turnabout and FoW, but ultimately, I think we have an edge here.
Sneak Show - Even; This is essentially a combo deck, so its the same as Breakfast.
ANT/TES - Even; See Breakfast.
Tempo Thresh - Slightly Favorable; This is about the same as Fish, but they have removal. They don't have Cursecatcher on the other hand, which is good for us. This makes Iona worse but FKZ better since they have a harder time binning a creature.
Team America - Slightly Favorable; Another Tempo deck with Wastelands. This is probably the best of the three big ones since they have discard, which is weaker against us.
Two things should be remembered with these guesses I have made; I could be completely wrong as these are all based on logical guesses. In addition, I assumed that the Dredge player is playing correctly. This is almost never the case. I doubt we will see these results in 10 games, but we probably will in 100-150 games.
You do realize that Engineered Explosives for 0 destroys zombie tokens, right? Drew won the match because Gearhart popped the EE too early and allowed him to build up a zombie army off of a single Bridge from Below.
I didn't say David would be 100% to win if he waited, I said he would be better off. I think that's pretty clearly the case.
Edit:
In my opinion, Dredge has matchups like this:
Slow Blue Control (Landstill, CounterTop): Extremely favorable. They have the ability to protect hate, but this doesn't overcome the fact that their deck is weak against ours.
Prison (Enchantress, Stax, etc.): Favorable to Extremely Favorable. Enchantress is pretty even, as they can potentially lock you out with Humility before you win (following Elephant Grass, of course). Otherwise, you can beat them before their board control comes down or with Vindicate creatures. If no such creatures are run, this entire category can shift to unfavorable.
Low-interactivity Aggro (Zoo, many builds of Junk): Somewhat favorable. They are much better able to leverage hate cards towards victory than the blue decks, but their deck choice is still fundamentally weak against ours.
High-interactivity Aggro (Tribal, DnT): About even. Depending on sideboards, this can go either way. They're mostly trying to aggro you out with just enough incidental disruption and hate to steal a win. Pilot skill matters a great deal here.
Slow combo: Even to favorable. We speed up many of their clocks with a life-draining manabase and self-mill, but we're also about the right speed to beat them.
Fast combo: Unfavorable. Decks like Belcher (usually), TES (always), Elves (usually; this is probably the closest), etc. are either much faster or just fast enough to beat us.
Tempo: Slightly unfavorable. They excel at stealing wins, and the only bad discard in their deck is Hymn to Tourach. Duress is never bad for them, and Thoughtseize is only bad when our hand is terrible. More generally, their disruption elements add up to buy them time. It's essential that Dredge never really gets into high gear, or else they've lost. These matchups can depend heavily on hate cards.
Check it out!
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part-1-one-shot-resources/
http://www.eternalcentral.com/resource-advantage-in-magic-part2-tempo/
I've also written a short primer on Manaless Dredge in Vintage:
http://www.eternalcentral.com/the-dredge-of-glory-an-introduction-to-manaless-dredge-in-vintage/
We can steal wins from Storm with a strong dredge. ANT/TES can't really stop us from winning on turn 2-3 and vice versa. Early Iona spells game for these decks pretty consistently (naming black obviously, red in the case of Belcher and green for Elves). Its a race and either side can win imo. They have a slightly edge in their consistency.
Vs ANT/TES:
Generally I find Ancestor's Chosen to be sub-par due to them IGG looping for infinite, or just storming for a million due to casting Ad Nauseum from 20 life and drawing the whole deck. Primus/Terastodon are as good as advertised.
I've never won a game with T0 Leyline of Sanctity vs ANT/TES. Once they get going, it's just trivial for them to Truth it.
Tried Thorn of Amethyst. Bad, even when landing. It has the same problems as using mana for CT: it slows you down a whole turn. When the game lasts 3 turns max, using one of them to possibly hit a card isn't worth doing. This is why Duress + CT didn't work either.
Currently trying Mindbreak Trap even though many have recommended against it. My theory is that I am rarely Duress'ed, and my opponents don't play around it online. It should be significantly worse in G3 since the surprise is gone, but it'll at least force them to side in something/anything and in all likelihood slow them down a turn.
How can you Igg loop for infinite? I thought the change to wish prevents that.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
Um, I'm pretty sure that ANT/TES can't wish for Chain. They have to have been smart enough to board it in.
I think I mentioned this in the primer. If you play Therapy correctly you can essentially never lose with Iona.
That said, is Iona in the maindeck the way to go? FKZ makes it for me, but Iona isn't an instant win against everyone so I'm wondering if I should run Sphinx instead (or even River Kelpie?) and have Iona in the board for the MUs where she auto-wins.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
Iona + FKZ wins a larger number of match ups than FKZ + Sphinx. Sphinx makes you win faster; that's all.
For example, FKZ + Sphinx scoops to Elephant Grass.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
No, White is still correct. Their only out is Karakas or a very big Words of War at that point.
So I'm bringing this list to a tournament tomorrow and test if it can have the same success like the traditional list that I've been using:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
3 Bloodghast
3 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
2 Tireless Tribe
1 Sun Titan
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
Enchantments (4)
4 Bridge from Below
Lands (14)
4 City of Brass
4 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Gemstone Mine
3 Nature's Claim
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Firestorm
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Darkblast
I've made a couple of tweaks from the original list in the primer. During playtest/goldfish sessions, I've noticed that I usually mulligan hands without a gold land so I increased the count to 11. I've also tweaked the configuration of my draw/discard spells to 4 Careful Study, 3 Cephalid Coliseum, and 2 Tireless Tribe making my Discard count to 10 (Study, PImp, Tribe) and increase the Draw to 11 (Breakthrough, Study, Coliseum). Iona is there on the sideboard for combo. So far it's been performing well but the best way to really find out is when I test it in an actual tournament.
4 Coliseums has to be the right call here... other than that, looks pretty solid (though I barely know Dredge and am just trying to get into it). Sun Titan seems really interesting to me, I actually brought it up to someone just the other day. I didn't want to say it to too many people because I'm not sure if it does enough. What do you normally get with it, a Stinkweed Imp? Too bad FKZ doesn't cost 3.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
Sun Titan reanimates a land (usually undiscovered paradise or coliseum so that I can dredge some more) to trigger landfall and bring bloodghasts back so that I can flashback another dread return and make more zombies. During postboard games, a reanimated Sun Titan can also get Stinkweed Imps and Tribes for defense and Golgari Thugs for the recurring Narcomoeba trick (if left unchecked).
Lands WUBG
EDH:
Doran WBG
Here's a featured article on one of his matches: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/21430_Round_8_Dan_Rude_vs_Wes_Blanchard.html
On paper, it looked like a bad dredge deck but the results proved otherwise. I liked the Trickster Mage as a 1CMC blue permanent discard outlet that even Coliseum can cast even though you could only discard one card at a time. it could also be used like a Rishadan Port to provide dredge with some sort of control to set up the kill turn. I think it's worth testing.
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
2 Sphinx of Lost Truths
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Trickster Mage
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Brainstorm
2 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Dakmor Salvage
3 Underground Sea
4 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
3 Null Rod
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Aura Thief
1 Blazing Archon
1 Realm Razer
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth
3 Stifle
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
So a couple things I notice immediately about this list that are pertinent to discussion:
1) 4 Dread Return targets (1 FKZ, 2 Sphinx, 1 Iona)
2) 9 Dredgers (4 Troll, 4 Imp, 1 Thug, I have trouble counting Salvage tbh)
3) 6 Discard outs (4 Putrid Imp, 2 Trickster Mage) which only require UB mana base
4) 3 Brainstorm over 2 Breakthrough
5) Only 3 Dread Returns despite the large number of targets
6) The sideboard is all sorts of awkward; Null Rod could easily be Pithing Needle if you think you can call well, 4 DR Targets, 2 of which function almost identically (Chosen and Archon), Aura Thief, which doesn't really change anything (you could blow out Enchantress at best), Emrakul who really only resets your Narcomoebas (I'm guessing this was to combat High Tide). Over all, there are 10 cards to combat hate, only 4 of which work against Leyline but the rest combat everything else well.
The fact that you can't play certain answers from your graveyard means you have to draw into them. This does increase the utility of Brainstorm in the deck since your draws become relevant.
Overall its an awkward list, but I think the rogue factor from Trickster Mage definitely helped him squeeze out games he shouldn't have. I think I understand the rational to play her and let me detail both pros and cons of her real quick:
Pros
1) Can be used to tap down permanents. This has enormous utility. It can shut down cards including but not limited to:
Serra Sanctum or lands with multiple Wild Growth, Rishadan Port, Any Crypt effect, Lands and creatures that can cause major boo-boos (Knight, Goyf, Fish, Tombstalker, can't hit Piledriver though T_T) and even chumper blockers when you are trying to beat with a Troll.
I think that is a big deal in general.
2) It can still provide a free discard if you untap the land or multiple discards if you tap all your lands and untap the Mage.
Cons
1) It needs a turn to work, so it is susceptible to creature removal. Actually, this a big deal since we make creature removal awkward with our current creature base.
2) It doesn't feed Ichorid (granted Tribe didn't either but Tribe was immune to all removal except Bolt) so it forces
The list is definitely awkward but I think there is something there. So let me go ahead and make my changes:
- At least 2 Dread Return targets, this is just simply too many. I'd say cut to 1 River Kelpie and 1 FKZ to start
1 Dakmor Salvage, 3 Underground Sea -> 4 Darkslick Shores; this is a budget thing obviously but there is no difference between these two in our deck. There is also no reason we should suffer Choke splash damage. I think the second Salvage is irrelevant since it only comes out when you want to get back Ghasts.
For the 2 slots I opened up, I think they should go to either more Trickster Mage or another Bloodghast and another Thug.
I worry that the removal of Ichorid completely is deck changing. Ichorid lets Dredge put on pressure without using many resources. I guess this just needs to be tested a little to see where we should be going. I definitely want to try this UB list but I don't know if I can give up Ichorid quite yet.
I think this is our first big discussion on this thread. Let's make it a good one. I feel the age of Dredge is about to begin (well not literally I just kinda hope).
I don't like her much either, but I think there are metas where she excels and it also eliminates the need to go 5 color, which I think the only big loss from that is Firestorm. Stifle, Needle/Rod, Chain and Echoing Truth clearly answer everything else pretty efficiently. As I said before, Turbulent Dreams or Sickening Dreams are the only replacements we have in UB.