While you can play without MD DR targets outside of Troll, you are hurt bad by cards like Jace/StP/PtE and Firespout. Combo decks can still beat you even if you manage to put up lethal damage.
For reference, here's a list he top 8'd with recently:
So it appears that he cut a DR and a Therapy for two DR targets. Also the sideboard is much different, but it seems odd to me that he adds DR targets while going down to 2 DR. The DR targets he runs are targets that I like, as they are good in all games and generally read "win the game" but I feel like 3 DRs has to be right... I also like having 4 Therapies.
I guess what happened is that I read his old article and he sold me on the ideas, but now I see he's playing what he used to consider bad, which is odd. I wonder what changed in the meta over the year that necessitated the changes? Combo is prevalent I suppose, which makes FKZ nice to have in order to race, so my guess is that he now feels like all he needs to do to win is DR one of the two maindeck targets and win with swarming Zombies rather than giant Trolls. On the Troll plan you want more DRs because Trolls are easier to answer so you might need more than one to get the job done. Sphinx and FKZ on the other hand do their work while coming into play, so one of them pretty much means GG.
I think I'm going to test his later list soon with -1 Darkblast (not a miser) for +1 Dread Return (yay Trolls!). I really like 15 land as I think it would make activating Coliseums and casting Nature's Claims mucho easier. But what do you guys think about his change, was it meta influenced, or did he just "see the light?"
PS: Anyone see the Round 1 (I believe) SCG feed last weekend? Nick Spagnolo casts Day of Judgment b/c he couldn't find Wrath of God the day of the tournament... opponent REGENERATES Troll, wins.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
@Zirath - Thanks for the link! Some surprising changes there.
@Dmel - If the FKZ is for combo, wouldn't Iona be better? There have been many times I couldnt scrape together 20 damage with FKZ and lost the following turn, where Iona doesn't need any any support Zombies to lock up a game against ANT or High Tide.
FKZ is better than Iona if and only if:
a) You have enough Zombies to be lethal this turn
b) You won't have the opportunity to win with those Zombie next turn
c) Iona is not an automatic win
If you go with the FKZ plan, Sphinx of Lost Truths becomes almost necessary in order to churn out enough Zombies to win, whereas Iona is fine all by herself. Right now, I'm playing Max's list from a year ago, minus one land and plus one Iona. I think I'm going to move the Darkblast to the 'board, probably for the 4th Careful Study.
His new sideboard is close to what I've been toying around with. I have the Therapy main, and I don't like the fourth Ichorid. Instead, I'm testing out a Blazing Archon and an Aura Thief as narrow-but-effective bullets.
I've been goldfishing with FKZ and Iona as DR targets and FKZ definitely does not require Sphinx in my opinion... it was just goldfishing, but I can usually get to overkill damage with him. Iona might be better against ANT/TES (obviously awesome against high tide but I don't really see that here), but FKZ still gives you an edge in that MU and might be better in some others.
I see the point though. But with Iona, they can always pull some "bounce and go off" crap anyways, whereas with FKZ you can often win the turn he comes out, or if not, put them low enough that Ad Naus isn't possible anyways.
As Max says, FKZ is also for the edge in the mirror...
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
@Zirath - Thanks for the link! Some surprising changes there.
@Dmel - If the FKZ is for combo, wouldn't Iona be better? There have been many times I couldnt scrape together 20 damage with FKZ and lost the following turn, where Iona doesn't need any any support Zombies to lock up a game against ANT or High Tide.
FKZ is better than Iona if and only if:
a) You have enough Zombies to be lethal this turn
b) You won't have the opportunity to win with those Zombie next turn
c) Iona is not an automatic win
If you go with the FKZ plan, Sphinx of Lost Truths becomes almost necessary in order to churn out enough Zombies to win, whereas Iona is fine all by herself.
In reality, if you are "comboing" into Iona, then you are going to need the Sphinx effect to get enough into your library to find her anyway. the only way to not have the need to play Sphinx is if you strictly want to grind out every game with a few zombies here and a few ichorids there. Allowing an opponent to untap often spells trouble for the Iona plan. there are just too many Knight of the Reliquary into Karakas, Jaces, enlightened tutors into e.explosives or pernicious deed, etc in Legacy right now to make Iona effective. Last week I saw a guy put an Iona down against ANT on black, and the ANT player untapped, Burning Wished into bounce, and went off the same turn. I personally lost to Merfolk and one game to Enchantress with Iona on blue and white respectively, where Merfolk out-paced me with what was already on the board and enchantress just dug for his Karakas for the win. Iona is all but irrelevant in the current metagame due to the recent popularity of Show and Tell/Emrakul decks. You are much better off going with FKZ. Also, I've never had a problem getting enough zombies out to swing for the win the same turn I drop FKZ unless my opponent has multiple blockers. As you said, the one matchup where Iona shines is if she hits against High Tide, but that becomes an issue of resoving your dread return against all of their counters.
Here's an article from Max McCall explaining the inclusion of the FKZ package.
Quote from Max McCall »
For a long time, I took the position that maindeck Dread Return targets weren't necessary in Dredge, because they made the deck less consistent, and because when you were putting a ton of Grave-Trolls into play while stripping your opponent's hand with Cabal Therapy, it didn't matter if you actually won the game a turn or two later.
However, that's not necessarily the case anymore. Against decks like Lands, you really do need to kill your opponent before he sets up Glacial Chasm, and the Tendrils decks can use Ponder or Brainstorm to sculpt a hand that's resilient to a Cabal Therapy or two.
The Zealot kill is also pretty important against some fringe decks, like Enchantress and the mirror. You also don't really lose that much value, because the Therapy and the Ichorid that the Sphinx and the Zealot replaced are in the sideboard, and you can just bring them in when you don't need to hypercombofinish your opponent. You can swap the Therapy and Ichorid into the maindeck for the Dread Return targets, if you feel so inclined.
When I sleeve up the traditional list, I always liked Iona and FKZ in the main so that I have options to choose from. I can super combo finish with FKZ whenever possible but I also have the Iona plan if I can't win with a zombie army.
Popular opinion is to draw against Force of Will decks so you can draw/discard/Dredge, correct? But what if they have Thoughtseize too, meaning they can take you off the DDD plan on turn one? Do you still draw against decks with both FoW and Thoughtseize?
To everyone thinking about FOW, why not Pact of Negation? Unlike FOW or Foil, you don't have to have a blue card in your hand, and it's a free counter.
To everyone thinking about FOW, why not Pact of Negation? Unlike FOW or Foil, you don't have to have a blue card in your hand, and it's a free counter.
are you crazy? if this deck has 5 mana on field to pay that upkeep cost its probably losing!
(to be rational lion's eye diamond strategically used might give you the mana early enough. but that highly situational. pact over all is just terrible for this deck. FOW isn't good but its better than nothing.)
traditional option of going heavy discard is probably a better option with unmask.
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The reason some people want to play Force (I do not!) is that it counters Hate pieces and key spells of combo decks. Pact is notoriously bad at both. I rarely have 5 mana to pay in my upkeep with Dredge. The reason you suggest Pact is probably the protection of your own Dredge-combo (if one can call it like that). And I'd rather protect it against opposing disruption with my 4 beautiful copies of Cabal Therapy.
are you crazy? if this deck has 5 mana on field to pay that upkeep cost its probably losing!
(to be rational lion's eye diamond strategically used might give you the mana early enough. but that highly situational. pact over all is just terrible for this deck. FOW isn't good but its better than nothing.)
traditional option of going heavy discard is probably a better option with unmask.
I was thinking along the lines of countering whatever thing the opposing player casts that could cripple you before you're able to swarm. And then I took another look at the card, and... it would be bad in this deck. So I guess I am crazy;)
I went 10-0 in matches, 20-2 in games. Yeah, the deck's good.
I played against 2x Deadguy Ale, 2x Elves, Affinity, Zoo, NO Bant, UWB Counter-Top, Goblins, and UWB control with Stifle/Dreadnaught. I didn't mulligan much, and only had to play against Crypt/Relic/Trap in two of the matches. Some people had Extirpates, Thorn of Amethyst, and Thoughtseize, which were all bad. None of the matches felt close, particularly the aggro decks. The control matches were long and I had to grind out the wins with Putrid Imp and Ichorid, but they weren't "close", in that I was never in danger of losing the next turn.
I hope to play around 10 matches a day in preparation for GP: Providence, I'll let you all know what I find out.
Man Dredge is addicting to play. I'm going the FKZ/Sphinx route because it seems pretty easy to just put your whole deck in your graveyard, find FKZ and combo out. If you have a Sphinx and a Dread Return in the yard, it seems hard to lose, but I'm sure you guys know that. Iona sits in the SB for me now because there are some matches that she just doesn't shine in. Sneaky Show, for instance... you have to name blue, but if they can stick a Sneak Attack you're still going to lose a bunch of permanents and take 15 in the air.
Another issue for me is the manabase. Oddly enough, I can't find Tarnished Citadels and am running 2 Underground Paradise in their spot. Backwards, I know. I actually kind of like it though. It can once in a while put you back a turn in cracking a Coliseum, but it's not smashing you in the face for 3, which can be relevant as well.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
Things that immediately catch my eye in those lists:
Frankie Mach
-13 land. I've been playing 15 and find myself mulliganing a lot less than when I played 14; plus, Wasteland has been giving me some trouble in the queues, so I wouldn't want to skimp on lands.
- Pithing Needle over Ancient Grudge. I don't think this is optimal... especially with Affinity at new heights.
- Mindbreak Trap. Okay, I can see wanting some insurance against ANT and High Tide.
Devyn March
- Angel of Despair main. Interesting choice, but I don't see too many situations where I'd want this over Woodfall Primus. You'd have to hit a pretty serious target to justify losing your Bridges and not having an Iona/FKZ in this slot. Maybe against Emrakul?
Timothy Froehlig
What an interesting list. Straight Blue/Black, so only 4 Pimps for discard outlets (to go with the 8 draw/discard spells). A miser's Thoughtseize in the main. All those fetches make me think this would be a Bloodghast build, but it isn't. River Kelpie over Sphinx?
Kyle Dunne
I like the 1 Deep Analysis in the main, it's something I always wish I had when I'm dredging with no card draw in hand. 2 Ichorid accompany the 4x Bloodghast in this list, meaning the deck can grind out wins better than straight up Ichorid builds.
River Kelpie seems like a jankier Sphinx with a potentially bigger upside. DR Kelpie, draw a card, then if you can sac the Kelpie to either Cabal Therapy or another DR, you get two more draws (which is = to what Sphinx gives you), and the Kelpie is still in play, so if you have more action on top of that you get more draws. BUT if your only flashback spell is the DR that puts Kelpie into play, all you're doing is drawing a card. Sphinx is a million times better in that situation it seems. Plus Kelpie doesn't discard the cards you Dredged up, which could hurt when you need to Dredge on your next draw (unlikely) or need to put Ichorid food back (possible). I think Sphinx is more consistent and therefore better, because Sphinx is still so explosive that it's hard not to win the turn you DR it into play if you've got the dredgers in the yard.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
Kelpie is winmore. I think it has the most success in lists with Bloodghast because you can DR Kelpie and then play a land to draw for each Ghast. Otherwise, its the same as Sphinx but has more potential to draw cards which you probably didn't need anyways since you usually dredge up 30-40 cards after Sphinx. If you really needed the remaining 10-20 cards, then you had a bad dredge.
Frankie Mach lost to the guy playing cephalid breakfast. He lost to a lot of counter magic and couldn't really get the engine running in game 1 and I think (IMO) he misplayed on game 2 when he opted to kill a pridemage via firestorm instead of waiting and dealing with the actual combo pieces (illusionist / en-kor) to hit the board. But still, props for making it to top 4 despite the other faster combo decks in the field.
Yeah I think it was his only discard outlet though, which is why he did that just to try and start going. If the Breakfast player is smart, he'd just play the nomads with the Pridemage out (assuming the Firestorm was saved), then play the illusionist. If you Firestorm with illusionist on the stack, you can't kill the nomads because he just redirects the damage to the Pridemage. If you wait till the illusionist comes into play he just goes off. So I think Mach made the right move, if we assume his opponent was good at playing Breakfast, which I would assume, granted you're in the semi-finals.
Zirath - good point about the Bloodghast. But you're right about the win-more I think, even then. Sphinx can get my whole deck in the yard almost, to the point where I have to draw because I don't have enough to Dredge.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
Random tid bit, I think I've found the best feeling in magic. Had a counter-top deck rav trap me twice, and both times he asked me if I wanted to concede. the second time, I laughed at him, and swung with a necromeba, two zombies and a Ichorid for game. It's like my board was invisible or something. Silly people thinking this deck folds to the hate. on that note, I've found it rare that hate that's not on turn 1 hurts me playing this. I take it that's normal? Anywho, after 30 some-odd matches, I find my self very confused as to why it's not more of a contender right now.
Yeah I pulled Dredge out as a joke when a friend wanted to test Zoo, won easily turn three, was like "haha sorry dude just had to" and he was like "no, you're playing me again, post-board!" So, I was like ok and just won again. For one, they have to see the hate, which often includes a mulligan or an otherwise questionable hand. For two, you can still win!
Having played mostly normal decks but now starting out with Dredge, I find that most non-Dredge players far overstate the effectiveness of hate, and that most Dredge players downplay it, and both sides seem to downplay the actual matchup much of the time. Merfolk actually has some weapons in the main board against Dredge and Zoo can race. But at the same time, a resolved Tormod's Crypt isn't game over either. I'll just slow-roll with some Ichorid beats - crack it too soon, we can rebuild, crack it too late and their dead. Find a second one, yeah, probably GG, but who knows!
Anyways, that's just how I feel. I think it's not more of a contender because of the random levels of hate and the perceived effectiveness of that hate, and because hey, there are a lot of powerful decks in Legacy. In sheer power, Dredge is almost second to none, but ANT/TES might be more so. Other, less powerful decks have FoW or Hymn to react with the uber-powerful combo decks, etc. But Dredge should definitely still be more of a contender, well at least as much of a contender as it was at the most recent SCG. In my most humble opinion.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
Hey everyone! Frankie here. I appreciate the positive feedback, and I would love to give a report here in the next few days. Also, I would like to comment on some of the statements made about my deck/plays.
1. Pithing needle vs grudge: I understand how powerful ancient grudge is, and I like the card, but pithing needle is great here. For one, most players don't know how to use graveyard hate, so it's easy to bait them into wasting it by slowrolling. Also, needle works on other important cards, such as vial, nomad en-kor, and belcher. It can even hit affinity by naming plating or Ravager. Grudge also feels a little superfluous with 4 nature's claim in there.
2. 13 lands: As I'm sure you guys are aware, the deck doesn't really have a lot of wiggle room. So many cards are 4-ofs, you have to take what you can get. Also, each hand needs a certain amount of action, and extra non-Coliseum lands are pretty dead. I can't chance having fizzley hands, so I focused on getting the bare-minimum needed to go off each time. 13 is very consistent, and I wouldn't change it. Note that this is for the standard, non-LED and non-Bloodghast builds.
3. Undiscovered Paradise: While it might seem weaker than Citadel, I will run this one every time. Three damage is HUGE, and not a risk I'm willing to take every game. Besides, the minor drawback of being dissynergystic with Coliseum is barely noticable.
4. Only 3 Therapies in the main: So in game one, you opponent is usually cold to you deck. They might have, like, 2 ways to interact with you in their whole deck. This is usually in the form of Force of Will or Daze, which are the standard blind-calls anyway. So the 4th Therapy seems like an unneeded card, as it hardly contributes to the "win fast" approach we take on as a combo player. Come games 2-3, things become a bit scarier. Suddenly the opponent has access to hozer cards like Ravenous Trap (which we are pretty dead to. Like, I used to side Nix to answer it.) And relic. Suddely, you want to be able to play defense against your opponent, who now comes as a threat. This is where number 4 comes in. On a note, I sided cabal therapy number 4 in every match, and I suggest you try it out. You'll be amazed how little you notice it game 1.
5. The "Firestorm play": This is referring to my Firestorming the Pridemage game 2 in the semis. Ok, so I hear people saying that I jumped the gun on this play, and that I should have held the Firestorm for a combo piece as to stifle the combo. The fact is, holding Firestorm would have done nothing. If I had waited, my opponent would have dropped the Nomad first, and I could not touch it or the Illusionist, as Nomads couldn't be killed with Qasali on the battlefield, and he coulda just comboed in response if he landed the illusionist. This led me to the play of Firestorm the Pridemage. Now, Firestorming here does 4 important things. One, it gets rid of the thug in my hand, allowing me to begin my plan of Dredging. Two, it makes my Cephalind Coliseum live next turn, allowing me to possibly win on the spot (one of the cards I would have dredged was a Troll). Three, even if my opponent did have the Macabre, which I knew he played due to previous experience, I would now have the possibility of drawing another Firestorm or a Needle, thus giving me a way to shut down his play. And 4, it would give me the opportunity to cap my opponent with Cephalid Coliseum to deck him out. While it is unsure if my opponent would have just flipped his deck or gone one activation at a time, the play is still relevant, as it could plausably happen. You have to be aware of all your outs at all times, and play accordingly.
I hope this clears the air about some of my choices. I understand not everyone will agree with them, but they were mine to make. And they did get me 3rd.
@Zero_Chaos: Gratz on the finish! Looking forward to read your report. Good call on the Firestorm play. I was thinking that your opponent would play the illusionist first and you could kill it in response to him playing the en-kor. Goes to show how much I know about Breakfast decks hehe. BTW, did you see a lot of hate in the field?
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For reference, here's a list he top 8'd with recently:
http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=5704&iddeck=41286
I think the speed and consistency of the decks in the format have gotten to the point where at least FKZ is still required to for speed.
Though I do notice that his only core cards for the board are:
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Ancient Grudge
3 Firestorm
Maybe you don't need MD DR targets. But there are certain match ups that are much better when you do have them.
I guess what happened is that I read his old article and he sold me on the ideas, but now I see he's playing what he used to consider bad, which is odd. I wonder what changed in the meta over the year that necessitated the changes? Combo is prevalent I suppose, which makes FKZ nice to have in order to race, so my guess is that he now feels like all he needs to do to win is DR one of the two maindeck targets and win with swarming Zombies rather than giant Trolls. On the Troll plan you want more DRs because Trolls are easier to answer so you might need more than one to get the job done. Sphinx and FKZ on the other hand do their work while coming into play, so one of them pretty much means GG.
I think I'm going to test his later list soon with -1 Darkblast (not a miser) for +1 Dread Return (yay Trolls!). I really like 15 land as I think it would make activating Coliseums and casting Nature's Claims mucho easier. But what do you guys think about his change, was it meta influenced, or did he just "see the light?"
PS: Anyone see the Round 1 (I believe) SCG feed last weekend? Nick Spagnolo casts Day of Judgment b/c he couldn't find Wrath of God the day of the tournament... opponent REGENERATES Troll, wins.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
@Dmel - If the FKZ is for combo, wouldn't Iona be better? There have been many times I couldnt scrape together 20 damage with FKZ and lost the following turn, where Iona doesn't need any any support Zombies to lock up a game against ANT or High Tide.
FKZ is better than Iona if and only if:
a) You have enough Zombies to be lethal this turn
b) You won't have the opportunity to win with those Zombie next turn
c) Iona is not an automatic win
If you go with the FKZ plan, Sphinx of Lost Truths becomes almost necessary in order to churn out enough Zombies to win, whereas Iona is fine all by herself. Right now, I'm playing Max's list from a year ago, minus one land and plus one Iona. I think I'm going to move the Darkblast to the 'board, probably for the 4th Careful Study.
His new sideboard is close to what I've been toying around with. I have the Therapy main, and I don't like the fourth Ichorid. Instead, I'm testing out a Blazing Archon and an Aura Thief as narrow-but-effective bullets.
I see the point though. But with Iona, they can always pull some "bounce and go off" crap anyways, whereas with FKZ you can often win the turn he comes out, or if not, put them low enough that Ad Naus isn't possible anyways.
As Max says, FKZ is also for the edge in the mirror...
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
In reality, if you are "comboing" into Iona, then you are going to need the Sphinx effect to get enough into your library to find her anyway. the only way to not have the need to play Sphinx is if you strictly want to grind out every game with a few zombies here and a few ichorids there. Allowing an opponent to untap often spells trouble for the Iona plan. there are just too many Knight of the Reliquary into Karakas, Jaces, enlightened tutors into e.explosives or pernicious deed, etc in Legacy right now to make Iona effective. Last week I saw a guy put an Iona down against ANT on black, and the ANT player untapped, Burning Wished into bounce, and went off the same turn. I personally lost to Merfolk and one game to Enchantress with Iona on blue and white respectively, where Merfolk out-paced me with what was already on the board and enchantress just dug for his Karakas for the win. Iona is all but irrelevant in the current metagame due to the recent popularity of Show and Tell/Emrakul decks. You are much better off going with FKZ. Also, I've never had a problem getting enough zombies out to swing for the win the same turn I drop FKZ unless my opponent has multiple blockers. As you said, the one matchup where Iona shines is if she hits against High Tide, but that becomes an issue of resoving your dread return against all of their counters.
When I sleeve up the traditional list, I always liked Iona and FKZ in the main so that I have options to choose from. I can super combo finish with FKZ whenever possible but I also have the Iona plan if I can't win with a zombie army.
Iona and FKZ cover the largest number of match ups.
High Tide runs 4 FoW and nothing else they can use effectively. You should be able to chew up their hand and play DR through it.
are you crazy? if this deck has 5 mana on field to pay that upkeep cost its probably losing!
(to be rational lion's eye diamond strategically used might give you the mana early enough. but that highly situational. pact over all is just terrible for this deck. FOW isn't good but its better than nothing.)
traditional option of going heavy discard is probably a better option with unmask.
Twitter- RogueSource.
Decks: "Name one! I probably got it built In one of these boxes."
---------------------------------------------------
Vintage will rise again! Buy a Mox today!
---------------------------------------------------
[I]Some call it dig through time, when really your digging through CRAP!
Merfolk! showing magic players what a shower is since Lorwyn!
I was thinking along the lines of countering whatever thing the opposing player casts that could cripple you before you're able to swarm. And then I took another look at the card, and... it would be bad in this deck. So I guess I am crazy;)
I went 10-0 in matches, 20-2 in games. Yeah, the deck's good.
I played against 2x Deadguy Ale, 2x Elves, Affinity, Zoo, NO Bant, UWB Counter-Top, Goblins, and UWB control with Stifle/Dreadnaught. I didn't mulligan much, and only had to play against Crypt/Relic/Trap in two of the matches. Some people had Extirpates, Thorn of Amethyst, and Thoughtseize, which were all bad. None of the matches felt close, particularly the aggro decks. The control matches were long and I had to grind out the wins with Putrid Imp and Ichorid, but they weren't "close", in that I was never in danger of losing the next turn.
I hope to play around 10 matches a day in preparation for GP: Providence, I'll let you all know what I find out.
Another issue for me is the manabase. Oddly enough, I can't find Tarnished Citadels and am running 2 Underground Paradise in their spot. Backwards, I know. I actually kind of like it though. It can once in a while put you back a turn in cracking a Coliseum, but it's not smashing you in the face for 3, which can be relevant as well.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
Whoa! 4 Dredge decks in the top 16 of SCG Open at LA. One even made it to top 4.
I saw that. the first thing i thought was, CRAP! now my meta is going to have graveyard hate again...
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1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Pithing Needle
1 Terastodon
3 Firestorm
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Nature's Claim
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Angel of Despair
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
1 Sphinx of Lost Truths
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
1 Darkblast
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Ichorid
1 Terastodon
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Firestorm
4 Nature's Claim
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
1 River Kelpie
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
1 Thoughtseize
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
4 Null Rod
1 Angel of Despair
1 Blazing Archon
1 Wonder
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Thoughtseize
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Golgari Thug
2 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Tireless Tribe
4 Bridge from Below
1 Brainstorm
1 Darkblast
3 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
1 Deep Analysis
2 Dread Return
2 City of Brass
2 Dakmor Salvage
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Angel of Despair
1 Woodfall Primus
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Darkblast
4 Force of Will
4 Nature's Claim
These all look pretty standard for us. Anyone who follows the thread one of these 4 and would like to give a tournament report?
Frankie Mach
-13 land. I've been playing 15 and find myself mulliganing a lot less than when I played 14; plus, Wasteland has been giving me some trouble in the queues, so I wouldn't want to skimp on lands.
- Pithing Needle over Ancient Grudge. I don't think this is optimal... especially with Affinity at new heights.
- Mindbreak Trap. Okay, I can see wanting some insurance against ANT and High Tide.
Devyn March
- Angel of Despair main. Interesting choice, but I don't see too many situations where I'd want this over Woodfall Primus. You'd have to hit a pretty serious target to justify losing your Bridges and not having an Iona/FKZ in this slot. Maybe against Emrakul?
Timothy Froehlig
What an interesting list. Straight Blue/Black, so only 4 Pimps for discard outlets (to go with the 8 draw/discard spells). A miser's Thoughtseize in the main. All those fetches make me think this would be a Bloodghast build, but it isn't. River Kelpie over Sphinx?
Kyle Dunne
I like the 1 Deep Analysis in the main, it's something I always wish I had when I'm dredging with no card draw in hand. 2 Ichorid accompany the 4x Bloodghast in this list, meaning the deck can grind out wins better than straight up Ichorid builds.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
Zirath - good point about the Bloodghast. But you're right about the win-more I think, even then. Sphinx can get my whole deck in the yard almost, to the point where I have to draw because I don't have enough to Dredge.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
Having played mostly normal decks but now starting out with Dredge, I find that most non-Dredge players far overstate the effectiveness of hate, and that most Dredge players downplay it, and both sides seem to downplay the actual matchup much of the time. Merfolk actually has some weapons in the main board against Dredge and Zoo can race. But at the same time, a resolved Tormod's Crypt isn't game over either. I'll just slow-roll with some Ichorid beats - crack it too soon, we can rebuild, crack it too late and their dead. Find a second one, yeah, probably GG, but who knows!
Anyways, that's just how I feel. I think it's not more of a contender because of the random levels of hate and the perceived effectiveness of that hate, and because hey, there are a lot of powerful decks in Legacy. In sheer power, Dredge is almost second to none, but ANT/TES might be more so. Other, less powerful decks have FoW or Hymn to react with the uber-powerful combo decks, etc. But Dredge should definitely still be more of a contender, well at least as much of a contender as it was at the most recent SCG. In my most humble opinion.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
1. Pithing needle vs grudge: I understand how powerful ancient grudge is, and I like the card, but pithing needle is great here. For one, most players don't know how to use graveyard hate, so it's easy to bait them into wasting it by slowrolling. Also, needle works on other important cards, such as vial, nomad en-kor, and belcher. It can even hit affinity by naming plating or Ravager. Grudge also feels a little superfluous with 4 nature's claim in there.
2. 13 lands: As I'm sure you guys are aware, the deck doesn't really have a lot of wiggle room. So many cards are 4-ofs, you have to take what you can get. Also, each hand needs a certain amount of action, and extra non-Coliseum lands are pretty dead. I can't chance having fizzley hands, so I focused on getting the bare-minimum needed to go off each time. 13 is very consistent, and I wouldn't change it. Note that this is for the standard, non-LED and non-Bloodghast builds.
3. Undiscovered Paradise: While it might seem weaker than Citadel, I will run this one every time. Three damage is HUGE, and not a risk I'm willing to take every game. Besides, the minor drawback of being dissynergystic with Coliseum is barely noticable.
4. Only 3 Therapies in the main: So in game one, you opponent is usually cold to you deck. They might have, like, 2 ways to interact with you in their whole deck. This is usually in the form of Force of Will or Daze, which are the standard blind-calls anyway. So the 4th Therapy seems like an unneeded card, as it hardly contributes to the "win fast" approach we take on as a combo player. Come games 2-3, things become a bit scarier. Suddenly the opponent has access to hozer cards like Ravenous Trap (which we are pretty dead to. Like, I used to side Nix to answer it.) And relic. Suddely, you want to be able to play defense against your opponent, who now comes as a threat. This is where number 4 comes in. On a note, I sided cabal therapy number 4 in every match, and I suggest you try it out. You'll be amazed how little you notice it game 1.
5. The "Firestorm play": This is referring to my Firestorming the Pridemage game 2 in the semis. Ok, so I hear people saying that I jumped the gun on this play, and that I should have held the Firestorm for a combo piece as to stifle the combo. The fact is, holding Firestorm would have done nothing. If I had waited, my opponent would have dropped the Nomad first, and I could not touch it or the Illusionist, as Nomads couldn't be killed with Qasali on the battlefield, and he coulda just comboed in response if he landed the illusionist. This led me to the play of Firestorm the Pridemage. Now, Firestorming here does 4 important things. One, it gets rid of the thug in my hand, allowing me to begin my plan of Dredging. Two, it makes my Cephalind Coliseum live next turn, allowing me to possibly win on the spot (one of the cards I would have dredged was a Troll). Three, even if my opponent did have the Macabre, which I knew he played due to previous experience, I would now have the possibility of drawing another Firestorm or a Needle, thus giving me a way to shut down his play. And 4, it would give me the opportunity to cap my opponent with Cephalid Coliseum to deck him out. While it is unsure if my opponent would have just flipped his deck or gone one activation at a time, the play is still relevant, as it could plausably happen. You have to be aware of all your outs at all times, and play accordingly.
I hope this clears the air about some of my choices. I understand not everyone will agree with them, but they were mine to make. And they did get me 3rd.