The burn threat for Legacy has been very active recently. Is it considered a tier 1 competitive deck now? I'm thinking of re-building burn because I tried playing U/R Delver and found it is to boring because when you lose tempo, you lose the game. Was wondering how burn is situated at the moment in the meta.
I don't think it is tier one, but in the right mix of your actual meta, it has a huge chance of taking tournaments with ease. The problem with Burn is that it tries it's hardest to be consistent with redundancy, but it just doesn't get you there sometimes. This deck isn't a bad deck to have in your arsenal. It's prices are cheap grab, and the expensive ones can go into other decks, or come from other decks.
Well, since soft-permission spells like Spell Pierce and Daze have fallen slightly out of favor Burn does have a better position in the current meta. I personally run the green splash for enchantment- and artifact-hate, which I think Burn is a bit soft against (I'm thinking about Chalice of the Void on one and two, Counterbalance, Leyline of Sanctity). Tier one? I don't know, but it sure is a fun deck to play
The thing that Burn is suffering from right now is that due to UR Delver, things like Hydroblast is starting to hit the scene. Color splashing with this deck goes against what the deck is trying to do, which is staying consistent and things like Wasteland can really screw things up with that. Maverick eats Delver decks, and what popular deck is on everyone's lips? Delver. Maverick plays four Wastes and ways to tutor it. It's only a matter of time before Maverick hits the scene, and our MU against that deck can be rough.
Shattering Spree answers Chalice on one AND two. There really is no need to splash colors. In fact, the only successful deck lists is mono red and you can't argue about it. It isn't that the deck is resistent to change because players don't want it to. It's resistant to change due to the composition of the deck itself. At least, that's how I have it figured.
First ten decks in forty-five plus player tournaments are all mono red. http://www.tcdecks.net/tipo.php?archetype=Burn&format=Legacy
One more thing to consider though is your experience of a tournament. I really enjoyed splashing 1 Taiga for 4 Krosan Grip in the sideboard because it singehandedly let me feel like I have a chance in every matchup. The most negative Legacy experiences to me are the games where you lose because of 1 card allowing the opponent to win on easy mode: Counterbalance is the main enemy I'm thinking of, but also Leyline, Energy Field, Chalices on 1+2, life gain equipment + counterspell on Smash, etc. Grip also has the potential to steal games against Painter, Omni/Dream Halls, many other random decks you run into. That's my pet card right now, maybe yours is different but I do encourage people to try both streamlined lists and their own personalized list in competitive tournaments. There are so many factors involved in a Burn deck getting to a big Top 8 that it's hard to say mono red is the only option because that's what has hit Top 8 in the past. Look at some of the Top 8 lists for proof of this, many are not perfect lists but ran less fetches because they didn't have them on hand, or ran a couple 1-ofs because that's what was available, then they played well and got some good luck and there you go. Who knows what list will Top 8 next? If it's mono red, will that be because that's the only competitive option, or because 9/10 Burn players in the room played mono red?
krimsonviper, I think your analysis is a bit off, especially with the splash damage from UR delver, people are maindecking pyroblast to stop treasure cruise, not hydroblast, if you can provide a list that maindecks hydro please enlighten me, I say this in earnest, no sarcasm.
Secondly maverick beats delver yes, but the wasteland plan has nothing to do with burn, especially if you're splashing a one of tiaga/stomping ground, they can't actually stop you from casting the spell, you simply play the taiga, or fetch for it, right before you cast your green spell. Sure this can open for some risky opening hands, but the odds are still strongly against it.
I think burn is very well positioned right now, its not tier 1, but 1.5, it beats the popular decks, and still has a chance against the best decks.
One more thing to consider though is your experience of a tournament. I really enjoyed splashing 1 Taiga for 4 Krosan Grip in the sideboard because it singehandedly let me feel like I have a chance in every matchup. The most negative Legacy experiences to me are the games where you lose because of 1 card allowing the opponent to win on easy mode: Counterbalance is the main enemy I'm thinking of, but also Leyline, Energy Field, Chalices on 1+2, life gain equipment + counterspell on Smash, etc. Grip also has the potential to steal games against Painter, Omni/Dream Halls, many other random decks you run into. That's my pet card right now, maybe yours is different but I do encourage people to try both streamlined lists and their own personalized list in competitive tournaments. There are so many factors involved in a Burn deck getting to a big Top 8 that it's hard to say mono red is the only option because that's what has hit Top 8 in the past. Look at some of the Top 8 lists for proof of this, many are not perfect lists but ran less fetches because they didn't have them on hand, or ran a couple 1-ofs because that's what was available, then they played well and got some good luck and there you go. Who knows what list will Top 8 next? If it's mono red, will that be because that's the only competitive option, or because 9/10 Burn players in the room played mono red?
Nine out of ten players play mono red because mono red has the tools it needs to battle everything you just listed. If you wish to keep playing the way you have, go right ahead. I don't particularly care who's right or wrong. I can't sit here and twist your arms. The successful lists are sitting right in front of you and even the cheap lists made it where the color splashed ones never have.
krimsonviper, I think your analysis is a bit off, especially with the splash damage from UR delver, people are maindecking pyroblast to stop treasure cruise, not hydroblast, if you can provide a list that maindecks hydro please enlighten me, I say this in earnest, no sarcasm.
Secondly maverick beats delver yes, but the wasteland plan has nothing to do with burn, especially if you're splashing a one of tiaga/stomping ground, they can't actually stop you from casting the spell, you simply play the taiga, or fetch for it, right before you cast your green spell. Sure this can open for some risky opening hands, but the odds are still strongly against it.
I think burn is very well positioned right now, its not tier 1, but 1.5, it beats the popular decks, and still has a chance against the best decks.
While I would love to prove myself right, I can't. What I can tell you is that Hydroblast is seeing play to combat Pyroblast. Since Oakland, I have encountered several Miracles, Infect, and UR Delver decks have some number of these in their deck to combat each other, and Burn just happens to be in the cross fire.
Mulliganing with Burn is bad. Having to mulligan with Burn means you had too many lands, no lands, or two plus Fireblast, or simply just too slow of a hand(I would keep slow hands anyway because mulliganing with Burn is that damn rough). Now you're having to mull because you opened with your splash land, or you have your splash card in hand and no fetch. We are at the mercy of our draws. How have you(and by that, I'm addressing everyone) not figured that out? You can certainly have great success in your LGS with four or less rounds because you have a higher chance of coming across certain decks. Against a wider field, you need to have broad answers and be better prepared.
Listen, like I said, I'm not forcing any thing on any of you. If you're having local success, great! Bring it to a larger attendance tournament, and you're going to need to pull your head out of your ass to see success.
Oh, and you can quote me. I'll literally eat a Lightning Bolt if a Burn deck that's splashed for another color land besides red and colorless in forty-five player plus attendance tournament wins it.
The thing that Burn is suffering from right now is that due to UR Delver, things like Hydroblast is starting to hit the scene. Color splashing with this deck goes against what the deck is trying to do, which is staying consistent and things like Wasteland can really screw things up with that. Maverick eats Delver decks, and what popular deck is on everyone's lips? Delver. Maverick plays four Wastes and ways to tutor it. It's only a matter of time before Maverick hits the scene, and our MU against that deck can be rough.
Re: the Hydroblast thing, I haven't seen it in MDs yet.... but I've seen it in a number of sideboards, including my own!
A standard Countertop complement is 1-3 red blasts main with 1-2 more in the board, and 0-2 blue blasts in the board as well. Personally I think the blue blasts will stick around for awhile, though it might drop to miser territory. It's not intended as an anti-blast blast, the reasoning is that it hits Sulfuric Vortex and Young Pyromancer. The splash damage is just gravy.
Re: the Maverick thing, it would be great to see the deck make a comeback, but I don't think it would last long. Back when I tested this matchup it seemed like a pretty clear 60/40 on the Burn side... that was just after Searing Blood and Eidolon of the Great Revel joined the MD. I don't agree that it's rough, though it's certainly losable.
Mulliganing with Burn is bad. Having to mulligan with Burn means you had too many lands, no lands, or two plus Fireblast, or simply just too slow of a hand(I would keep slow hands anyway because mulliganing with Burn is that damn rough). Now you're having to mull because you opened with your splash land, or you have your splash card in hand and no fetch. We are at the mercy of our draws. How have you(and by that, I'm addressing everyone) not figured that out? You can certainly have great success in your LGS with four or less rounds because you have a higher chance of coming across certain decks. Against a wider field, you need to have broad answers and be better prepared.
My argument here is that post board those hands are keepable, you know whats coming up, with the decks you're bringing artifact/enchantment hate in against you can afford the wait to dig for the manafix. What are you going to do with counter top set up? nothing, what are you going to do with chalice out? nothing, what are you going to do with a turn 0 leyline of sanctity? nothing.
Chalice on one and two vs. Shattering Spree
Countertop + SDT vs. Vexing Shusher
I have nothing as great for Leyline, but there is attacking creatures, Flame Rift, Sulfuric Vortex, Eidolon, and a HUGE possibility that they kept a bad hand just to try and screw us. Personally, I haven't seen Leyline used against me, nor in any games set next to me. I'm not sure if that strategy is any good, but I do know I have seen people claim these are viable. I know I have beaten Chalice on one and two and a Batterskull. Thank you Sulrufic Vortex and Shattering Spree.
Chalice on one and two vs. Shattering Spree
Countertop + SDT vs. Vexing Shusher
I have nothing as great for Leyline, but there is attacking creatures, Flame Rift, Sulfuric Vortex, Eidolon, and a HUGE possibility that they kept a bad hand just to try and screw us. Personally, I haven't seen Leyline used against me, nor in any games set next to me. I'm not sure if that strategy is any good, but I do know I have seen people claim these are viable. I know I have beaten Chalice on one and two and a Batterskull. Thank you Sulrufic Vortex and Shattering Spree.
So you are running smash to smithereens and shattering spree? seems a bit over kill to me, but thats just me, and shattering spree has been proven to suck against stoneforge since it can't deal with jitte/batterskull eot. outside of countertop, shusher sucks in every match up, krosan grip solves both issues with only draw back: the chance of getting screwed by drawing a one of land against wasteland decks.
This is as far as I would go into a blue splash before just going to UR Delver. Cruise has won me games that I would not have if they were the Lava Spikes or Rift Bolts that they replaced. Brainstorm can let you shuffle away extra lands or bad cards in game 1. Leyline is an interesting idea that I might want to consider adopting instead of the Mindbreak Traps. I do miss my Bridges in the sideboard but have been getting the crap kicked out of me by Dredge lately.
Standard: RWUJeskai Modern: RWGBurn, GRWUBSlivers Legacy: RBurn EDH: RWGUBSliver Overlord, UWGeist of Saint Traft (Tiny Leaders) Current decklists are posted here
I don't think I like the black splash. I don't think it provides us enough firepower to be worth the risks. We have enough bolts to not need Bump. Tyrant's Choice is better than Flame Rift but a lot of decks are leaving it in the board at most these days. I don't like Spike Jester at all. We have options like (Hell)Spark Elemental or Keldon Marauders if we want a creature in the 2-drop spot. Duress/Thoughseize are cute but not enough to really disrupt combo game over our existing options.
The only colors that I would consider splashing are blue for Cruise and Brainstorm or white for things like Boros Charm, Deflecting Palm, Lightning Helix, Containment Priest, Swords to Plowshares, etc. I am liking my blue splash but am not convinced that splashing either color improves the deck enough to be worth the extra weaknesses.
Standard: RWUJeskai Modern: RWGBurn, GRWUBSlivers Legacy: RBurn EDH: RWGUBSliver Overlord, UWGeist of Saint Traft (Tiny Leaders) Current decklists are posted here
Long time modern burn player here, just bought the last cards I needed to complete the legacy one. There is a legacy FNM on friday, and I was thinking of going with this classical build:
I'm going totally blind, I don't know what meta to expect, I once saw some guys casually playing a reanimator deck and an Elf deck, but this was months ago. Here are the sideboard cards I had in mind :
So.... after today's spoiler, I have a crazy enough idea to work...
Use a couple soulfire grand master as sideboard in burn....
Yeah, I mean it....
it has 2 uses.
1 - the obvious one of making your racing better as you'll recover life at the same speed you take them out
2 - Buyback Fireblasts
it's hard to make room for a card like this in a deck like burn.
but it can be really nice against decks that are trying to effectively race against burn.
It's likely I'll be cutting it out after a couple runs...
but I really want to try it.
Long time modern burn player here, just bought the last cards I needed to complete the legacy one. There is a legacy FNM on friday, and I was thinking of going with this classical build:
I'm going totally blind, I don't know what meta to expect, I once saw some guys casually playing a reanimator deck and an Elf deck, but this was months ago. Here are the sideboard cards I had in mind :
What matchups should I expect ? Miracles ? Dredge ? Ad Nauseam Storm ? UR/RUG/BUG Delver ? What are the must have sideboard cards ?
Thanks in advance ! I cannot wait !
Just finished playing a build similar to this just this past Saturday.
For a Legacy FNM, what you run into is going to entirely depend on the players. Since this isn't a major event where most people will probably bring the "best" decks, there is really no telling what you'll run into.
Having said that, if I had to guess, based on my personal observations and what I've run into, you'll probably see one or more of the following decks.
UR Delver
Death And Taxes
Elves
Miracles
Stoneblade
These are some of the more popular decks right now.
You might also run into
Reanimator
Lands
Infect
If this becomes a regular FNM for your LGS, eventually you'll get a good handle on what to expect unless you have people like me who play a different deck every week. Then it's a crap shoot.
Some words of warning.
Miracles and Reanimator are horrible matchups and almost unwinnable if they land a turn 2 Counterbalance or Iona, respectively. Trying to fight through either of those things is difficult to impossible. I miraculously actually managed a draw against one of the two Miracles decks I played against Saturday simply because he kept drawing blanks on his win condition in game 3. Game 2 I managed two Fireblasts which he couldn't manage a successful Counterbalance for or had any counters in his hand. If you can manage to land a Vortex before they lock you out, you may be able to ride it to victory if they can't get rid of it.
As for the sideboard, out of the cards you have listed I'd personally go with this board
The last one to deal with Infect before they Berserk you into oblivion.
You've got some good matchups but lets be honest, this is still a budget deck and isn't going to be dominating anybody and some matchups are just close to unwinnable.
My burn runs 18 lands and so far i have no problem. I'd also suggest running one lavamancer short. 2 is a solid number. and i'd heavily advise 3 gitaxian probe in their place. knowing what your opponent has is extremely helpful. If you have time to test this before your fnm, i think you will see the deck run slightly better
Long time modern burn player here, just bought the last cards I needed to complete the legacy one. There is a legacy FNM on friday, and I was thinking of going with this classical build:
I'm going totally blind, I don't know what meta to expect, I once saw some guys casually playing a reanimator deck and an Elf deck, but this was months ago. Here are the sideboard cards I had in mind :
What matchups should I expect ? Miracles ? Dredge ? Ad Nauseam Storm ? UR/RUG/BUG Delver ? What are the must have sideboard cards ?
Thanks in advance ! I cannot wait !
Just finished playing a build similar to this just this past Saturday.
For a Legacy FNM, what you run into is going to entirely depend on the players. Since this isn't a major event where most people will probably bring the "best" decks, there is really no telling what you'll run into.
Having said that, if I had to guess, based on my personal observations and what I've run into, you'll probably see one or more of the following decks.
UR Delver
Death And Taxes
Elves
Miracles
Stoneblade
These are some of the more popular decks right now.
You might also run into
Reanimator
Lands
Infect
If this becomes a regular FNM for your LGS, eventually you'll get a good handle on what to expect unless you have people like me who play a different deck every week. Then it's a crap shoot.
Some words of warning.
Miracles and Reanimator are horrible matchups and almost unwinnable if they land a turn 2 Counterbalance or Iona, respectively. Trying to fight through either of those things is difficult to impossible. I miraculously actually managed a draw against one of the two Miracles decks I played against Saturday simply because he kept drawing blanks on his win condition in game 3. Game 2 I managed two Fireblasts which he couldn't manage a successful Counterbalance for or had any counters in his hand. If you can manage to land a Vortex before they lock you out, you may be able to ride it to victory if they can't get rid of it.
As for the sideboard, out of the cards you have listed I'd personally go with this board
The last one to deal with Infect before they Berserk you into oblivion.
You've got some good matchups but lets be honest, this is still a budget deck and isn't going to be dominating anybody and some matchups are just close to unwinnable.
Good luck and let us know how you do.
Solid advice. Try and stay away from removing more than 4-5 burn slots for things that deal no damage. Don't lean too much on Mindbreak Trap because it will get stripped from your hand before use. Instead, lean more on Eidolon. Dredge MU is absolutely abismal, so fit some kind of graveyard hate, in which I recommend Tormod's Crypt. Surgical Extraction is decent, but it only really matters against Reanimator. Dredge will function as a beat face deck.
I don't think Infect is common enough to warrant a sideboard slot devoted to it, and at 2 mana Sudden Shock is a bit iffy in any case.
IMHO the must-have sideboard cards are these:
Sulfuric Vortex
Smash to Smithereens
Ensnaring Bridge
Vexing Shusher
Mindbreak Trap
Graveyard Hate (I personally prefer Relic of Progenitus but they all have their strong points)
Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast
I actually like Mindbreak quite a lot, despite how crummy it looks and its potential to be stripped without mattering. To my way of thinking, Mindbreak covers my hindquarters until I can play Eidolon... and it's still boss when I have an Eidolon out already. It complements Relic pretty well too, shutting off a nasty flurry of spells that my opponent might try to fire off while my T1 Relic is not threatening to wipe the graveyard.
I think the blasts are a bit weak, and I could see cutting them for other stuff. It's hard to have that mana open at the right moment against a Counterbalance on the way down, and once it's on the table I don't want my answer to have CMC=1. I would much prefer having a Sulfuric Vortex or Vexing Shusher in hand against Miracles, and I do think that matchup is common+difficult enough to warrant the slots for Shusher. The blast thing was better when Show and Tell was more prevalent.
Smash to Smithereens I definitely wouldn't leave home without, a lot of folks are playing Chalice of the Void and Stoneforge Mystic.
I guess my recommended board would be:
X Sulfuric Vortex (however many it takes to have 4 in the 75)
2-3 Ensnaring Bridge
2-3 Vexing Shusher
3 GY hate cards, at least 1 of which is a Relic of Progenitus
2-3 Mindbreak Trap
2-3 Smash to Smithereens
Thank you all very much !! So, against Miracles, you take out searing blaze obviously, and if you need to take out more, for siding in Shusher, Vortex and/or Pyroblast, do you take out like Lava Spike ?
offtheropes5 >> Thanks for the suggestion, but I won't have the probes for the FNM, I'll keep your advice in mind for when I have more practice with the basic deck, though.
Think about which cards are most likely to generate value (that is, damaage) against Miracles. Go through the MD and take out whatever is going to be weakest, then rifle through the SB and put in whatever is probably going to be better.
Searing Blood or Searing Blaze will be the first thing to go every time because there's very little chance of them having a target. Catching Snapcaster Mages and Vendilion Cliques with it is a spot of luck reserved for game 1s.
Feel free to drop Price of Progress, but it's not awful. Your opponent may suspect that you cut this card and run out his duals, and even if he (or she) tries hard to avoid doing so, something nonbasic is likely to hit the field. It's hard to get more than 2 damage out of a PoP against Miracles, but this card is not entirely dead.
Definitely keep in every creature, and be really careful how you use Vexing Shusher. She's very precious, and while it's tempting to run her out early to get in a swing or two, this may be unwise. She can enable a whole grip full of burn that Counterbalance had been been messing up. The only card more valuable is Sulfuric Vortex. Goblin Guide is actually not terrible: he can give you information about what's on top of the other player's deck, and thus help to push spells through Counterbalance. Grim Lavamancer is beautiful because he can keep getting 2 damage through when spells won't resolve any longer.
Lava Spike shouldn't be cut, but you should definitely cast this spell as soon as possible so as to get value out of it. This is true of all the 1 CMC burn. OTOH, hold on to Rift Bolts: CMC 3 is a lot harder to deal with, and these can also be used to see whether the coast is clear for a Sulfuric Vortex.
The more familiar you are with the way Countertop operates, the better your chances of victory will be. Pay close attention to Sensei's Divining Top and the opposing player's knowledge of what cards are on top. There are little windows of opportunity where you can get in there with a CMC 1 or CMC 2 spell. Is there a shuffle on the stack with the top card of the library unknown? That's a good time for a Lightning Bolt. Did they Top EoT? You might get some damage through on upkeep, 'cause most of the time they rearranged to put a land on top of two spells. They may top to rearrange, counter the bolt, then top that land back on top... and not be able to spin again to answer a Sulfuric Vortex.
There are glorious victories to be had against Countertop players where you run out all the cheap burn before CB resolves and finish them with awkward CMCs. If you get just the right hand and execute the plan properly, CB might not even hit anything at all!
Think about which cards are most likely to generate value (that is, damaage) against Miracles. Go through the MD and take out whatever is going to be weakest, then rifle through the SB and put in whatever is probably going to be better.
Searing Blood or Searing Blaze will be the first thing to go every time because there's very little chance of them having a target. Catching Snapcaster Mages and Vendilion Cliques with it is a spot of luck reserved for game 1s.
Feel free to drop Price of Progress, but it's not awful. Your opponent may suspect that you cut this card and run out his duals, and even if he (or she) tries hard to avoid doing so, something nonbasic is likely to hit the field. It's hard to get more than 2 damage out of a PoP against Miracles, but this card is not entirely dead.
Definitely keep in every creature, and be really careful how you use Vexing Shusher. She's very precious, and while it's tempting to run her out early to get in a swing or two, this may be unwise. She can enable a whole grip full of burn that Counterbalance had been been messing up. The only card more valuable is Sulfuric Vortex. Goblin Guide is actually not terrible: he can give you information about what's on top of the other player's deck, and thus help to push spells through Counterbalance. Grim Lavamancer is beautiful because he can keep getting 2 damage through when spells won't resolve any longer.
Lava Spike shouldn't be cut, but you should definitely cast this spell as soon as possible so as to get value out of it. This is true of all the 1 CMC burn. OTOH, hold on to Rift Bolts: CMC 3 is a lot harder to deal with, and these can also be used to see whether the coast is clear for a Sulfuric Vortex.
The more familiar you are with the way Countertop operates, the better your chances of victory will be. Pay close attention to Sensei's Divining Top and the opposing player's knowledge of what cards are on top. There are little windows of opportunity where you can get in there with a CMC 1 or CMC 2 spell. Is there a shuffle on the stack with the top card of the library unknown? That's a good time for a Lightning Bolt. Did they Top EoT? You might get some damage through on upkeep, 'cause most of the time they rearranged to put a land on top of two spells. They may top to rearrange, counter the bolt, then top that land back on top... and not be able to spin again to answer a Sulfuric Vortex.
There are glorious victories to be had against Countertop players where you run out all the cheap burn before CB resolves and finish them with awkward CMCs. If you get just the right hand and execute the plan properly, CB might not even hit anything at all!
At the end, we were actually 2 people at my FNM last week, just me and a UG Infect player. This does not bode well for future Legacy FNM there...
We played some games, and I sideboarded -2 Sulfuric Vortex, +2 Searing Blood after the first one. It worked pretty well, I won 2-0 then 3-2. I learned that in this matchup, I always want to play Grim Lavamancer turn 1 rather than Goblin Guide.
Thanks again for all your advice, I will definitely remember it next time I can play Legacy !
Now, for something completely different, have you seen the spoilers for Fate Reforged ? Collateral Damage is interesting, like Shard Volley but you sacrifice a creature. What do you guys think ?
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I don't think it is tier one, but in the right mix of your actual meta, it has a huge chance of taking tournaments with ease. The problem with Burn is that it tries it's hardest to be consistent with redundancy, but it just doesn't get you there sometimes. This deck isn't a bad deck to have in your arsenal. It's prices are cheap grab, and the expensive ones can go into other decks, or come from other decks.
The thing that Burn is suffering from right now is that due to UR Delver, things like Hydroblast is starting to hit the scene. Color splashing with this deck goes against what the deck is trying to do, which is staying consistent and things like Wasteland can really screw things up with that. Maverick eats Delver decks, and what popular deck is on everyone's lips? Delver. Maverick plays four Wastes and ways to tutor it. It's only a matter of time before Maverick hits the scene, and our MU against that deck can be rough.
Shattering Spree answers Chalice on one AND two. There really is no need to splash colors. In fact, the only successful deck lists is mono red and you can't argue about it. It isn't that the deck is resistent to change because players don't want it to. It's resistant to change due to the composition of the deck itself. At least, that's how I have it figured.
First ten decks in forty-five plus player tournaments are all mono red.
http://www.tcdecks.net/tipo.php?archetype=Burn&format=Legacy
Secondly maverick beats delver yes, but the wasteland plan has nothing to do with burn, especially if you're splashing a one of tiaga/stomping ground, they can't actually stop you from casting the spell, you simply play the taiga, or fetch for it, right before you cast your green spell. Sure this can open for some risky opening hands, but the odds are still strongly against it.
I think burn is very well positioned right now, its not tier 1, but 1.5, it beats the popular decks, and still has a chance against the best decks.
RIP Karn EDH
Nine out of ten players play mono red because mono red has the tools it needs to battle everything you just listed. If you wish to keep playing the way you have, go right ahead. I don't particularly care who's right or wrong. I can't sit here and twist your arms. The successful lists are sitting right in front of you and even the cheap lists made it where the color splashed ones never have.
While I would love to prove myself right, I can't. What I can tell you is that Hydroblast is seeing play to combat Pyroblast. Since Oakland, I have encountered several Miracles, Infect, and UR Delver decks have some number of these in their deck to combat each other, and Burn just happens to be in the cross fire.
Mulliganing with Burn is bad. Having to mulligan with Burn means you had too many lands, no lands, or two plus Fireblast, or simply just too slow of a hand(I would keep slow hands anyway because mulliganing with Burn is that damn rough). Now you're having to mull because you opened with your splash land, or you have your splash card in hand and no fetch. We are at the mercy of our draws. How have you(and by that, I'm addressing everyone) not figured that out? You can certainly have great success in your LGS with four or less rounds because you have a higher chance of coming across certain decks. Against a wider field, you need to have broad answers and be better prepared.
Listen, like I said, I'm not forcing any thing on any of you. If you're having local success, great! Bring it to a larger attendance tournament, and you're going to need to pull your head out of your ass to see success.
Oh, and you can quote me. I'll literally eat a Lightning Bolt if a Burn deck that's splashed for another color land besides red and colorless in forty-five player plus attendance tournament wins it.
Re: the Hydroblast thing, I haven't seen it in MDs yet.... but I've seen it in a number of sideboards, including my own!
A standard Countertop complement is 1-3 red blasts main with 1-2 more in the board, and 0-2 blue blasts in the board as well. Personally I think the blue blasts will stick around for awhile, though it might drop to miser territory. It's not intended as an anti-blast blast, the reasoning is that it hits Sulfuric Vortex and Young Pyromancer. The splash damage is just gravy.
Re: the Maverick thing, it would be great to see the deck make a comeback, but I don't think it would last long. Back when I tested this matchup it seemed like a pretty clear 60/40 on the Burn side... that was just after Searing Blood and Eidolon of the Great Revel joined the MD. I don't agree that it's rough, though it's certainly losable.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
My argument here is that post board those hands are keepable, you know whats coming up, with the decks you're bringing artifact/enchantment hate in against you can afford the wait to dig for the manafix. What are you going to do with counter top set up? nothing, what are you going to do with chalice out? nothing, what are you going to do with a turn 0 leyline of sanctity? nothing.
RIP Karn EDH
Countertop + SDT vs. Vexing Shusher
I have nothing as great for Leyline, but there is attacking creatures, Flame Rift, Sulfuric Vortex, Eidolon, and a HUGE possibility that they kept a bad hand just to try and screw us. Personally, I haven't seen Leyline used against me, nor in any games set next to me. I'm not sure if that strategy is any good, but I do know I have seen people claim these are viable. I know I have beaten Chalice on one and two and a Batterskull. Thank you Sulrufic Vortex and Shattering Spree.
The Krosan Grip plan doesn't seem so out of line anymore.
So you are running smash to smithereens and shattering spree? seems a bit over kill to me, but thats just me, and shattering spree has been proven to suck against stoneforge since it can't deal with jitte/batterskull eot. outside of countertop, shusher sucks in every match up, krosan grip solves both issues with only draw back: the chance of getting screwed by drawing a one of land against wasteland decks.
edit for misread info
RIP Karn EDH
4 Brainstorm
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Searing Blaze
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
Lands
3 Arid Mesa
7 Mountain
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Flame Rift
2 Mindbreak Trap
3 Searing Blood
3 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Tormod's Crypt
This is as far as I would go into a blue splash before just going to UR Delver. Cruise has won me games that I would not have if they were the Lava Spikes or Rift Bolts that they replaced. Brainstorm can let you shuffle away extra lands or bad cards in game 1. Leyline is an interesting idea that I might want to consider adopting instead of the Mindbreak Traps. I do miss my Bridges in the sideboard but have been getting the crap kicked out of me by Dredge lately.
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The only colors that I would consider splashing are blue for Cruise and Brainstorm or white for things like Boros Charm, Deflecting Palm, Lightning Helix, Containment Priest, Swords to Plowshares, etc. I am liking my blue splash but am not convinced that splashing either color improves the deck enough to be worth the extra weaknesses.
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Legacy: RBurn
EDH: RWGUBSliver Overlord, UWGeist of Saint Traft (Tiny Leaders)
Current decklists are posted here
I really really wanted to like Dark Confidant in my burn deck, but the draw comes on turn 3 and fireblast could kill me...
I think he works better in a slow control type deck, where you dont mind playing duress on the first turn.
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Long time modern burn player here, just bought the last cards I needed to complete the legacy one. There is a legacy FNM on friday, and I was thinking of going with this classical build:
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the great revel
3 Grim Lavamancer
Spells (29)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
3 Searing Blaze
2 Sulfuric Vortex
11 Fetches
9 Mountain
I'm going totally blind, I don't know what meta to expect, I once saw some guys casually playing a reanimator deck and an Elf deck, but this was months ago. Here are the sideboard cards I had in mind :
4 Searing Blood
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Mindbreak trap
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Red elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast
3 Vexing Shusher
4 Volcanic Fallout
4 Sudden shock
What matchups should I expect ? Miracles ? Dredge ? Ad Nauseam Storm ? UR/RUG/BUG Delver ? What are the must have sideboard cards ?
Thanks in advance ! I cannot wait !
Use a couple soulfire grand master as sideboard in burn....
Yeah, I mean it....
it has 2 uses.
1 - the obvious one of making your racing better as you'll recover life at the same speed you take them out
2 - Buyback Fireblasts
it's hard to make room for a card like this in a deck like burn.
but it can be really nice against decks that are trying to effectively race against burn.
It's likely I'll be cutting it out after a couple runs...
but I really want to try it.
Just finished playing a build similar to this just this past Saturday.
For a Legacy FNM, what you run into is going to entirely depend on the players. Since this isn't a major event where most people will probably bring the "best" decks, there is really no telling what you'll run into.
Having said that, if I had to guess, based on my personal observations and what I've run into, you'll probably see one or more of the following decks.
UR Delver
Death And Taxes
Elves
Miracles
Stoneblade
These are some of the more popular decks right now.
You might also run into
Reanimator
Lands
Infect
If this becomes a regular FNM for your LGS, eventually you'll get a good handle on what to expect unless you have people like me who play a different deck every week. Then it's a crap shoot.
Some words of warning.
Miracles and Reanimator are horrible matchups and almost unwinnable if they land a turn 2 Counterbalance or Iona, respectively. Trying to fight through either of those things is difficult to impossible. I miraculously actually managed a draw against one of the two Miracles decks I played against Saturday simply because he kept drawing blanks on his win condition in game 3. Game 2 I managed two Fireblasts which he couldn't manage a successful Counterbalance for or had any counters in his hand. If you can manage to land a Vortex before they lock you out, you may be able to ride it to victory if they can't get rid of it.
As for the sideboard, out of the cards you have listed I'd personally go with this board
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Ensaring Bridge
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Searing Blood
2 Sudden Shock
The last one to deal with Infect before they Berserk you into oblivion.
You've got some good matchups but lets be honest, this is still a budget deck and isn't going to be dominating anybody and some matchups are just close to unwinnable.
Good luck and let us know how you do.
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Solid advice. Try and stay away from removing more than 4-5 burn slots for things that deal no damage. Don't lean too much on Mindbreak Trap because it will get stripped from your hand before use. Instead, lean more on Eidolon. Dredge MU is absolutely abismal, so fit some kind of graveyard hate, in which I recommend Tormod's Crypt. Surgical Extraction is decent, but it only really matters against Reanimator. Dredge will function as a beat face deck.
IMHO the must-have sideboard cards are these:
Sulfuric Vortex
Smash to Smithereens
Ensnaring Bridge
Vexing Shusher
Mindbreak Trap
Graveyard Hate (I personally prefer Relic of Progenitus but they all have their strong points)
Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast
I actually like Mindbreak quite a lot, despite how crummy it looks and its potential to be stripped without mattering. To my way of thinking, Mindbreak covers my hindquarters until I can play Eidolon... and it's still boss when I have an Eidolon out already. It complements Relic pretty well too, shutting off a nasty flurry of spells that my opponent might try to fire off while my T1 Relic is not threatening to wipe the graveyard.
I think the blasts are a bit weak, and I could see cutting them for other stuff. It's hard to have that mana open at the right moment against a Counterbalance on the way down, and once it's on the table I don't want my answer to have CMC=1. I would much prefer having a Sulfuric Vortex or Vexing Shusher in hand against Miracles, and I do think that matchup is common+difficult enough to warrant the slots for Shusher. The blast thing was better when Show and Tell was more prevalent.
Smash to Smithereens I definitely wouldn't leave home without, a lot of folks are playing Chalice of the Void and Stoneforge Mystic.
I guess my recommended board would be:
X Sulfuric Vortex (however many it takes to have 4 in the 75)
2-3 Ensnaring Bridge
2-3 Vexing Shusher
3 GY hate cards, at least 1 of which is a Relic of Progenitus
2-3 Mindbreak Trap
2-3 Smash to Smithereens
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
offtheropes5 >> Thanks for the suggestion, but I won't have the probes for the FNM, I'll keep your advice in mind for when I have more practice with the basic deck, though.
Searing Blood or Searing Blaze will be the first thing to go every time because there's very little chance of them having a target. Catching Snapcaster Mages and Vendilion Cliques with it is a spot of luck reserved for game 1s.
Feel free to drop Price of Progress, but it's not awful. Your opponent may suspect that you cut this card and run out his duals, and even if he (or she) tries hard to avoid doing so, something nonbasic is likely to hit the field. It's hard to get more than 2 damage out of a PoP against Miracles, but this card is not entirely dead.
Definitely keep in every creature, and be really careful how you use Vexing Shusher. She's very precious, and while it's tempting to run her out early to get in a swing or two, this may be unwise. She can enable a whole grip full of burn that Counterbalance had been been messing up. The only card more valuable is Sulfuric Vortex. Goblin Guide is actually not terrible: he can give you information about what's on top of the other player's deck, and thus help to push spells through Counterbalance. Grim Lavamancer is beautiful because he can keep getting 2 damage through when spells won't resolve any longer.
Lava Spike shouldn't be cut, but you should definitely cast this spell as soon as possible so as to get value out of it. This is true of all the 1 CMC burn. OTOH, hold on to Rift Bolts: CMC 3 is a lot harder to deal with, and these can also be used to see whether the coast is clear for a Sulfuric Vortex.
The more familiar you are with the way Countertop operates, the better your chances of victory will be. Pay close attention to Sensei's Divining Top and the opposing player's knowledge of what cards are on top. There are little windows of opportunity where you can get in there with a CMC 1 or CMC 2 spell. Is there a shuffle on the stack with the top card of the library unknown? That's a good time for a Lightning Bolt. Did they Top EoT? You might get some damage through on upkeep, 'cause most of the time they rearranged to put a land on top of two spells. They may top to rearrange, counter the bolt, then top that land back on top... and not be able to spin again to answer a Sulfuric Vortex.
There are glorious victories to be had against Countertop players where you run out all the cheap burn before CB resolves and finish them with awkward CMCs. If you get just the right hand and execute the plan properly, CB might not even hit anything at all!
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Solid advice, as well.
At the end, we were actually 2 people at my FNM last week, just me and a UG Infect player. This does not bode well for future Legacy FNM there...
We played some games, and I sideboarded -2 Sulfuric Vortex, +2 Searing Blood after the first one. It worked pretty well, I won 2-0 then 3-2. I learned that in this matchup, I always want to play Grim Lavamancer turn 1 rather than Goblin Guide.
Thanks again for all your advice, I will definitely remember it next time I can play Legacy !
Now, for something completely different, have you seen the spoilers for Fate Reforged ? Collateral Damage is interesting, like Shard Volley but you sacrifice a creature. What do you guys think ?