That's funny, most of the cards I'd consider the first line of defense against Miracles you didn't mention at all, except for Choke.
Choke is a card that one has just because it's so broad, not because it's that good. It's better than something that's just going to eat a Terminus without doing much, or a Swords to Plowshares.
When I want to hate on Miracles, I think of Sylvan Library, Pithing Needle for SDT, Elspeth, and if you really want something narrow, Luminarch Ascension.
Miracles is always going to have the upper hand against us though, it's just the nature of a GSZ-fueled deck vs. one powered by SDT/Terminus.
To defeat Miracles, one wants either an Aether Vial-fueled deck or one that just goes over the top of their defenses, like Goblins/MUD.
I've had this discussion with players IRL about needle against miracles. If it sticks, you're good. But I think it's too narrow of a card + awful as the match goes on and you topdeck into it. So either you're banking on the opening sequence running it out OR you have a dead card. I'd much rather have action in the form of QPM/Decay or Elspeth/Liliana/Garruk. Sylvan Library for sure...that card is just so strong against durdly decks.
As I mentioned above, I'm done with choke. Even in a blue-heavy room. It just doesn't do enough. Miracles can get around it, BUG has DRS and decay to nuke it, and RUG packs so much tempo right now you're never gonna get the thing to stick (and if you do, I could argue you already won that MU/could use any other card).
Decks like Goblins naturally have Vial and a very strange curve of cards. Miracles struggles with that upper end. Plus goblins can sit on gas a la Matron or Ringleader. MUD has a very fast opening sequence where Chalice or Trini = swings the game in their favor fast.
One card I've been debating is Natural Order. I'll be open with this one: I've seen it in a few European lists and can't tell if it's worth 4-5 spots in the SB. Against Miracles I could see potentially eliminating via NO-Progenitus
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
With my Dark Depths + Thespian's Stage + Weathered Wayfarer list I've found a decent improvement in the Miracles matchup.
It's an uncounterable, one turn clock and they have three outs to it, all of which we can naturally answer ourselves. Karakas answers, but your own Wastelands takes care of that. Terminus can work if they have a Top or Brainstorm to Miracle it on your turn, but we have QPM for top, and of course Teeg. Plow is just naturally pretty stretched thin when every creature you play tends to be a must-answer (Mom, Confidant, KotR, Thalia, etc.), and of course there is Mom to protect Marit Lage.
With my Dark Depths + Thespian's Stage + Weathered Wayfarer list I've found a decent improvement in the Miracles matchup.
It's an uncounterable, one turn clock and they have three outs to it, all of which we can naturally answer ourselves. Karakas answers, but your own Wastelands takes care of that. Terminus can work if they have a Top or Brainstorm to Miracle it on your turn, but we have QPM for top, and of course Teeg. Plow is just naturally pretty stretched thin when every creature you play tends to be a must-answer (Mom, Confidant, KotR, Thalia, etc.), and of course there is Mom to protect Marit Lage.
While it is indeed strong, they also have 4+ copies of STP (via snapcaster), Venser, Jace, and the sweepers (terminus as pseudo-instant speed). If you can assemble DD/Stage with Mom backup against Miracles, you deserve to crush them. I'm trying to think of some of the fastest ways to beat them. I'm considering NO since it's a possible turn 3 play and requires terminus/wrath/verdict or they die. I can also hold back my threats (ie; keep in hand) once Progenitus is in play
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
That's funny, most of the cards I'd consider the first line of defense against Miracles you didn't mention at all, except for Choke.
Choke is a card that one has just because it's so broad, not because it's that good. It's better than something that's just going to eat a Terminus without doing much, or a Swords to Plowshares.
When I want to hate on Miracles, I think of Sylvan Library, Pithing Needle for SDT, Elspeth, and if you really want something narrow, Luminarch Ascension.
Miracles is always going to have the upper hand against us though, it's just the nature of a GSZ-fueled deck vs. one powered by SDT/Terminus.
To defeat Miracles, one wants either an Aether Vial-fueled deck or one that just goes over the top of their defenses, like Goblins/MUD.
I've had this discussion with players IRL about needle against miracles. If it sticks, you're good. But I think it's too narrow of a card + awful as the match goes on and you topdeck into it. So either you're banking on the opening sequence running it out OR you have a dead card. I'd much rather have action in the form of QPM/Decay or Elspeth/Liliana/Garruk. Sylvan Library for sure...that card is just so strong against durdly decks.
As I mentioned above, I'm done with choke. Even in a blue-heavy room. It just doesn't do enough. Miracles can get around it, BUG has DRS and decay to nuke it, and RUG packs so much tempo right now you're never gonna get the thing to stick (and if you do, I could argue you already won that MU/could use any other card).
Decks like Goblins naturally have Vial and a very strange curve of cards. Miracles struggles with that upper end. Plus goblins can sit on gas a la Matron or Ringleader. MUD has a very fast opening sequence where Chalice or Trini = swings the game in their favor fast.
One card I've been debating is Natural Order. I'll be open with this one: I've seen it in a few European lists and can't tell if it's worth 4-5 spots in the SB. Against Miracles I could see potentially eliminating via NO-Progenitus
I am right there with you with choke. My real problem with that card is that you absolutely have to resolve it in a position where it will be a blowout, like when they tap out for something. The problem is, good miracle players will never simply tap out for something, and even of you get them with their pants down, it's not even a given that it will hinder them enough for you to leverage it into a game winning position. So, I am totally with you on this one, no more chokes for me. And it's as you said against bug/other blue midrange decks/tempo decks.
Speaking of Miracles, I think that if i still wanted an effect that attacks their mana, I would go old school Armageddon on them. At least, it actually wins if it sticks, but the downside is that you absolutely need a good on-board position for you to consider playing that card, which is not a given, when we talk about miracles. But that is also very narrow, unless you want to blow that local 12 post guy out, but at least it actually wins the game right away. Then, yes, you have pitting needle (very good against them), Luminarch Ascension and bitterblossom as other narrow kill-you cards, and plainswalkers (garuck is a bit better against miracles because of the extra power for the tokens).
Finally, I think your list if probably the best suited against miracles, imo (with bobs maindeck, pridemage along with the usual creature package). I was not a fan for bob in this deck, but more and more, you are convincing me. Especially your last list, that looks pretty damn solid. I will try it out in a short future.
Playing:
Legacy:
:symw::symb::symg::symu::symr:Dredge
:symu::symb: ANT
The Gate
Modern:
:symu::symr: Past in flames Storm
EDH:
:symr::symw::symb: Kaalia of the Vast
Jace and Terminus on their turn won't work because you just make Marit Lage EoT to avoid sorcery speed answers. I did forget about Venser, that's a good one that they have (but haven't run into in testing). Karakas was pretty easy to deal with because my build has additional ways to tutor up Wasteland, and StP is just as effective as always, but the way I see it is that an StP that they have to use on Confidant or Mom or w/e is an StP they don't have to answer a potential Marit Lage.
I'll agree with you that you want something that's basically game on its own, and NO will fill a similar role here. Weaker to countermagic, but dodges spot removal.
Scryb Ranger allows you to double up on powerful tap abilities like Mom and KotR, allows you to indefinitely fog an attacker with Dryad Arbor (declare Arbor as a blocker and then return it to hand), the protection from blue allows it to wall opposing Delvers and/or various Merfolk not named TNN, and to top it off it has evasion making it great at carrying equipment.
Lot of talk on miracles, but I've been having much more difficulty against tnn, especially uwr. I really can't seem to beat the fast clock, tempo, equip AND tnn, especially on the draw. I've resorted to going black heavy dropping moms for discard and thalia for decay. How have you guys handles it?
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
It might be too cute but my friend who plays Maverick,aside for using more qpmages against tnn equips has used doran the siege tower to make tnn's attack for 1 as opposed for three.
It might be too cute but my friend who plays Maverick,aside for using more qpmages against tnn equips has used doran the siege tower to make tnn's attack for 1 as opposed for three.
I have looked into this as well. I have toyed around with 'cute' options and have so tech I'd like to test. Doran doesn't do enough imo.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Fair enough, just a suggestion. I guess ZP is still tbe bomb versus TNN and qpmage on equipments. If you want more Miracle hate, use planeswalkers, they tend to do some work since they are immune to sweepers and Miracles doesnt have good outs to planeswalkers in general. Other options are pithing needle or phyrexian revoker naming sdtop, winter orb and possibly eternal witness or life from the loam, as recursion is great versus countermagic.
Problem with zp and pridemage is that it doesn't deal with the slowness of hand on the draw against tempo. Fetching basics cause some frustration later and going turn one mana dork often is burned out, leaving the turn two play very susceptible to wasteland, daze and force. So basically, it is hard to zp with basics while still getting green for dorks and hoping for basics. This is only versus tnn too. Against a turn one delver it's a nightmare trying to deal with tempo and only having four stp to deal with, not to mention zp not killing flipped delver. Remember that zp comes in after board, which in essense, we are giving up game 1 against uwr delver. So I should rephrase my initial question, "i have a problem dealing with tnn, equipment and speed preboard on the draw, any thoughts?"
This is important because if we don't work on it mainboarding, we are really risking a first game automatic loss like how we do against combo, making our deck lose stability in a long tournament. I experienced this bringing the deck to a scg sponsored event here in Japan. With 365 players, I had to trudge through nine rounds. I went 5-3-1 and my struggles game 1 were against tempo AND combo. I had no edge against any of them game one and I had to rely on sideboard for those matchups. Remember that combo and tempo (which often then not include tnn) are fairly common in any given meta game.
I really think we need to increase black in order to fit abrupt decay and thoughtseize or else really throw our hands up mainboard against tnn and hope our draws are good enough game two and three since having zp is not a huge edge for us that it "automatically favors us." I had zp, but it wasn't enough to beat the onslaught of good draws opponent had of equps, delver and tnn.
Now my list has morphed into a darker list, which is what I have been advocating on this thread a while back, dropping thalia and mother and mainboarding thoughtseize and decay. This opens up space for powerfull planeswalker a which is naturally good against miracles as suggested above and adds power against the entire field which mother and thalia did not. Thalia shines in particular matchups where decay covers a wider spectrum and mother is even more specific, very useless against combo and barely useful in a field hedged agains tnn with Liliana everywhere. Thoughtseize hits literally everything, with Reid Duke even dedicating a whole article on its power and usefulness. It is also a "soft lock" protecting your creatures from removal if you discard it, at least for a turn or two until they find an answer. By then, hopefully your active knight has caused enough destruction or your active stoneforge, ooze or sylvan has given us an edge. I essentially think mom with its prolonged protection is useless in this meta game where tnn can punch right through it, combo can ignore it and swarm strategies, swarm over it. Pound for pound thoughtseize outperforms mom in any average matchup and in a long tournament, this is important. Also, notice that I did not take any green creatures out. I kept the green sun zenith in because I think zenith's power over the fate of the draw is what makes maverick powerful, consistent and explosive. I am only advocating a power level rise in this specific meta game.
To be honest, most TNN decks I've seen don't run the tempo shell, but rather a mid game centered deck. My outs MD are Qasali Pridemages and a SoFaI. As a note, the note you stretch your mana base, the better the tempo decks will do against you.
I used Doran in GSZ brews before. It works well enough next to DRS, SFM, etc; while nerfing some decks' primary beaters. His other attribute is being a non-grave 5/5 that attacks through ensnaring bridge; which is a big deal. That, he's effective enough at nerfing TNN I've never been able to attack with him (he's been removed on the spot) and as a 1-of; I didn't find him very often unless he was my GSZ target; which was also not very often. He's a fine 1-of in the side or main IMO.
Isn't Tsunami a better card than Armageddon as a sideboard card?
I found that sometimes miracles can also just get you with mono plains and other lands such as mystic gate and fetch lands that they can just crack after tsunami resolves. They only really need 2 islands to function in a somewhat stable way anyways. Armageddon just breaks them, with no way to come back from it. (given that you are in a still in a good position after it resolves, which isn't a given)
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Legacy:
:symw::symb::symg::symu::symr:Dredge
:symu::symb: ANT
The Gate
Modern:
:symu::symr: Past in flames Storm
EDH:
:symr::symw::symb: Kaalia of the Vast
Problem with zp and pridemage is that it doesn't deal with the slowness of hand on the draw against tempo.
First, the initial question was about dealing primarily with TNN and tempo. The Patriot UWR deck (delver, SFM, TNN) loses hard to QPM and ZP. I will indeed argue this point, as I have personally beat this matchup using Dark Maverick several times in competition this year against a handful of players. In relation to "the slowness of hand on the draw", I don't know what you mean. Patriot is essentially a 2 trick deck: it either lands delver and does everything to ride one to victory or it opts for a midgame that's banking on TNN and/or equipment. Ideally, you can handle their threats. In reality, they have lots of removal, tempo cards, and key counterspells. I strongly advocate for Dark Confidant and Sylvan Library in this matchup because you WILL get through their wall and out-CA their tempo.
Fetching basics cause some frustration later and going turn one mana dork often is burned out, leaving the turn two play very susceptible to wasteland, daze and force.
Try my list. Running 7-8 fetches with 3-4 basics does the trick. I have cut down on wasteland vulnerability in particular as my most recent list runs GW with swamp as the guaranteed black basic. Is it perfect? No. But I feel that many fetches solidifies the odds of you grabbing a basic.
So basically, it is hard to zp with basics while still getting green for dorks and hoping for basics. This is only versus tnn too.
Aside from some lists packing 4 stifle and me being careless, I have not run into this situation. 2 forest, 1 plains, 1 swamp atm.
Against a turn one delver it's a nightmare trying to deal with tempo and only having four stp to deal with, not to mention zp not killing flipped delver. Remember that zp comes in after board, which in essense, we are giving up game 1 against uwr delver. So I should rephrase my initial question, "i have a problem dealing with tnn, equipment and speed preboard on the draw, any thoughts?"
You're painting a doom and gloom situation. If you know you're going to face UWR delver, then why don't you run 4x abrupt decay in the maindeck? That card single-handedly owns delver decks and anything dubbed "tempo" because it indiscriminately kills stuff and shrugs off daze/pierce/force. Running a sub-optimal list into a matchup and then saying this deck can't handle things is an inaccurate depiction.
@your list:
If we're really going to be picky, the list you posted is junk-blade, which is different from Maverick and Dark Maverick. You're banking on SFM and lingering souls to "get there" on value. No wonder you're dying to delver decks. They burn out your durdles and suddenly you're tempo'ed out of playing your key spells. UWR delver loses to Maverick thanks to mom + thalia + [qpm/kotr]. The list you link to isn't Maverick, and the emphasis is clear. You're losing because you need high-priced spells (in life like thoughtseize or cc like lingering), which get blocked by daze and pierce. Maverick, by contrast, is making a ground game that's disruptive (see: mom and thalia). When you're the one wastelanding + thalia taxing opponents, their tempo spells suddenly force them to tap out. Now their fast game is a crawl.
My last point is also something everyone needs to think about. Magic is built as a rocks-paper-scissors game. You can't change that. Make a deck designed to fight 1 thing really well. If you have a deck that's got discard, some spells, some creatures, a 4 drop finisher, some silver bullets: you're making a mess. I've been there myself. Be a master of 1 thing, not a mediocre jack of many. You wanna fight combo and tempo? sweet. Pick 1 thing you want to destroy and if possible, use pieces that work well against the other. However, if your mirror (maverick, sfm decks, dnt) or control (miracles, lands, bug control) matchups go down, don't complain. You can't beat every deck out there.
Combo: Thalia, Teeg (some uses), Scooze (some uses), discard, ethersworn canonist, leyline of sanctity (burn/storm/belcher), surgical extraction/rest in peace (dependent)
Tempo: Thalia, Mom (negates all removal), wasteland (90% of tempo decks are dual-heavy and can't afford to miss a land drop), card advantage (confidant, library), abrupt decay, surgical extraction
Isn't Tsunami a better card than Armageddon as a sideboard card?
No. 'Geddon has wider applications and indiscriminately nukes all lands. This is helpful against slower control decks (miracles) or ones that love having tons of mana (12 post, lands.dec, even DnT to a certain extent). The biggest thing to consider is what you're going after. I am very wary of Choke atm and think the card doesn't hinder blue opponents like it once did. I would ALWAYS go geddon > tsunami because that latter is so provincial.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
How can you advocate Choke and then say that Tsunami is too narrow? (I realize you don't advocate Choke *now*, but you said it's only because they still get access to their mana. Tsunami doesn't have that problem and does the same; albeit temporal; job.)
That said; most aggro-control decks don't "Just do something well", they are aggro control because they run (usually) 2 forms of disruption (land + [hand or permanent].) This deck has silver bullets (found by KotR) and aims to deal with Tempo/midrange alike. IMO Legacy decks are typically jack-of-all-trades or they just lack something against combo (because combo comes in too many forms to reasonably disrupt all maindeck.) They have to be to be any good.
Look at Miracles or Deathblade. Disruption works on Fair and Unfair alike, they have myriad answers to creature spam, high quality creatures, combo, or tempo. They're good because they *do* do everything. There are too many "Oops, you lose!" cards in legacy to not "do everything" unless you have a game plan like "Destroy all of your mana"; which (if you've ever played pox) still doesn't work out well.
How can you advocate Choke and then say that Tsunami is too narrow? (I realize you don't advocate Choke *now*, but you said it's only because they still get access to their mana. Tsunami doesn't have that problem and does the same; albeit temporal; job.)
That said; most aggro-control decks don't "Just do something well", they are aggro control because they run (usually) 2 forms of disruption (land + [hand or permanent].) This deck has silver bullets (found by KotR) and aims to deal with Tempo/midrange alike. IMO Legacy decks are typically jack-of-all-trades or they just lack something against combo (because combo comes in too many forms to reasonably disrupt all maindeck.) They have to be to be any good.
Look at Miracles or Deathblade. Disruption works on Fair and Unfair alike, they have myriad answers to creature spam, high quality creatures, combo, or tempo. They're good because they *do* do everything. There are too many "Oops, you lose!" cards in legacy to not "do everything" unless you have a game plan like "Destroy all of your mana"; which (if you've ever played pox) still doesn't work out well.
The best argument I've heard against Choke is that it's really only good against Miracles and High Tide, and even then, it can be played around without too much trouble. Considering that you can't cast Tsunami under a Teeg (which you should run to help the Miracles MU), you won't likely hit all their lands (what if they leave fetchlands up? they do that naturally for top activations), it's taxed up to 5 mana by Thalia (big difference from 4 mana) and it doesn't answer Jace, Rest in Peace, or Entreat tokens, not to mention they only need W to wipe your board. If you want this kind of an effect, play Cataclysm. If not, find a different way to trump the MU.
Also, no, you shouldn't expect a tier 1.5/tier 2 legacy deck to have 60/40 match ups across the board. You will have bad match ups. You can have game against everything, but you do need to pick what matters, or you're just going to have a bad time.
@mikeduges
You are playing Junk, which is fine, but has it's own thread. This isn't a semantic debate; you're running ~7-10 less creatures than the typical Maverick list, with a heavier dedication to black. Congrats! You slid on the spectrum over to Junk, which is a sweet deck. Not something we here should be expected to chat about in this thread though.
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I've had this discussion with players IRL about needle against miracles. If it sticks, you're good. But I think it's too narrow of a card + awful as the match goes on and you topdeck into it. So either you're banking on the opening sequence running it out OR you have a dead card. I'd much rather have action in the form of QPM/Decay or Elspeth/Liliana/Garruk. Sylvan Library for sure...that card is just so strong against durdly decks.
As I mentioned above, I'm done with choke. Even in a blue-heavy room. It just doesn't do enough. Miracles can get around it, BUG has DRS and decay to nuke it, and RUG packs so much tempo right now you're never gonna get the thing to stick (and if you do, I could argue you already won that MU/could use any other card).
Decks like Goblins naturally have Vial and a very strange curve of cards. Miracles struggles with that upper end. Plus goblins can sit on gas a la Matron or Ringleader. MUD has a very fast opening sequence where Chalice or Trini = swings the game in their favor fast.
One card I've been debating is Natural Order. I'll be open with this one: I've seen it in a few European lists and can't tell if it's worth 4-5 spots in the SB. Against Miracles I could see potentially eliminating via NO-Progenitus
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
It's an uncounterable, one turn clock and they have three outs to it, all of which we can naturally answer ourselves. Karakas answers, but your own Wastelands takes care of that. Terminus can work if they have a Top or Brainstorm to Miracle it on your turn, but we have QPM for top, and of course Teeg. Plow is just naturally pretty stretched thin when every creature you play tends to be a must-answer (Mom, Confidant, KotR, Thalia, etc.), and of course there is Mom to protect Marit Lage.
While it is indeed strong, they also have 4+ copies of STP (via snapcaster), Venser, Jace, and the sweepers (terminus as pseudo-instant speed). If you can assemble DD/Stage with Mom backup against Miracles, you deserve to crush them. I'm trying to think of some of the fastest ways to beat them. I'm considering NO since it's a possible turn 3 play and requires terminus/wrath/verdict or they die. I can also hold back my threats (ie; keep in hand) once Progenitus is in play
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I am right there with you with choke. My real problem with that card is that you absolutely have to resolve it in a position where it will be a blowout, like when they tap out for something. The problem is, good miracle players will never simply tap out for something, and even of you get them with their pants down, it's not even a given that it will hinder them enough for you to leverage it into a game winning position. So, I am totally with you on this one, no more chokes for me. And it's as you said against bug/other blue midrange decks/tempo decks.
Speaking of Miracles, I think that if i still wanted an effect that attacks their mana, I would go old school Armageddon on them. At least, it actually wins if it sticks, but the downside is that you absolutely need a good on-board position for you to consider playing that card, which is not a given, when we talk about miracles. But that is also very narrow, unless you want to blow that local 12 post guy out, but at least it actually wins the game right away. Then, yes, you have pitting needle (very good against them), Luminarch Ascension and bitterblossom as other narrow kill-you cards, and plainswalkers (garuck is a bit better against miracles because of the extra power for the tokens).
Finally, I think your list if probably the best suited against miracles, imo (with bobs maindeck, pridemage along with the usual creature package). I was not a fan for bob in this deck, but more and more, you are convincing me. Especially your last list, that looks pretty damn solid. I will try it out in a short future.
Playing:
Legacy:
:symw::symb::symg::symu::symr:Dredge
:symu::symb: ANT
The Gate
Modern:
:symu::symr: Past in flames Storm
EDH:
:symr::symw::symb: Kaalia of the Vast
I'll agree with you that you want something that's basically game on its own, and NO will fill a similar role here. Weaker to countermagic, but dodges spot removal.
BGElvesBG and BUGNissa ElvesBUG Faithful Elfer since May 1st, 2015
Results: SCG IQ Top 8, Monthly Modern Masters Top 4
Pretty much this. 3x ZP. Don't get cute with 2.
EDIT: 3-4x QPM in the 75 works awfully well in addition to the above
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I have looked into this as well. I have toyed around with 'cute' options and have so tech I'd like to test. Doran doesn't do enough imo.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
This is important because if we don't work on it mainboarding, we are really risking a first game automatic loss like how we do against combo, making our deck lose stability in a long tournament. I experienced this bringing the deck to a scg sponsored event here in Japan. With 365 players, I had to trudge through nine rounds. I went 5-3-1 and my struggles game 1 were against tempo AND combo. I had no edge against any of them game one and I had to rely on sideboard for those matchups. Remember that combo and tempo (which often then not include tnn) are fairly common in any given meta game.
I really think we need to increase black in order to fit abrupt decay and thoughtseize or else really throw our hands up mainboard against tnn and hope our draws are good enough game two and three since having zp is not a huge edge for us that it "automatically favors us." I had zp, but it wasn't enough to beat the onslaught of good draws opponent had of equps, delver and tnn.
Now my list has morphed into a darker list, which is what I have been advocating on this thread a while back, dropping thalia and mother and mainboarding thoughtseize and decay. This opens up space for powerfull planeswalker a which is naturally good against miracles as suggested above and adds power against the entire field which mother and thalia did not. Thalia shines in particular matchups where decay covers a wider spectrum and mother is even more specific, very useless against combo and barely useful in a field hedged agains tnn with Liliana everywhere. Thoughtseize hits literally everything, with Reid Duke even dedicating a whole article on its power and usefulness. It is also a "soft lock" protecting your creatures from removal if you discard it, at least for a turn or two until they find an answer. By then, hopefully your active knight has caused enough destruction or your active stoneforge, ooze or sylvan has given us an edge. I essentially think mom with its prolonged protection is useless in this meta game where tnn can punch right through it, combo can ignore it and swarm strategies, swarm over it. Pound for pound thoughtseize outperforms mom in any average matchup and in a long tournament, this is important. Also, notice that I did not take any green creatures out. I kept the green sun zenith in because I think zenith's power over the fate of the draw is what makes maverick powerful, consistent and explosive. I am only advocating a power level rise in this specific meta game.
Thoughts are welcomed.
BGElvesBG and BUGNissa ElvesBUG Faithful Elfer since May 1st, 2015
Results: SCG IQ Top 8, Monthly Modern Masters Top 4
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
I found that sometimes miracles can also just get you with mono plains and other lands such as mystic gate and fetch lands that they can just crack after tsunami resolves. They only really need 2 islands to function in a somewhat stable way anyways. Armageddon just breaks them, with no way to come back from it. (given that you are in a still in a good position after it resolves, which isn't a given)
Playing:
Legacy:
:symw::symb::symg::symu::symr:Dredge
:symu::symb: ANT
The Gate
Modern:
:symu::symr: Past in flames Storm
EDH:
:symr::symw::symb: Kaalia of the Vast
First, the initial question was about dealing primarily with TNN and tempo. The Patriot UWR deck (delver, SFM, TNN) loses hard to QPM and ZP. I will indeed argue this point, as I have personally beat this matchup using Dark Maverick several times in competition this year against a handful of players. In relation to "the slowness of hand on the draw", I don't know what you mean. Patriot is essentially a 2 trick deck: it either lands delver and does everything to ride one to victory or it opts for a midgame that's banking on TNN and/or equipment. Ideally, you can handle their threats. In reality, they have lots of removal, tempo cards, and key counterspells. I strongly advocate for Dark Confidant and Sylvan Library in this matchup because you WILL get through their wall and out-CA their tempo.
Try my list. Running 7-8 fetches with 3-4 basics does the trick. I have cut down on wasteland vulnerability in particular as my most recent list runs GW with swamp as the guaranteed black basic. Is it perfect? No. But I feel that many fetches solidifies the odds of you grabbing a basic.
Aside from some lists packing 4 stifle and me being careless, I have not run into this situation. 2 forest, 1 plains, 1 swamp atm.
You're painting a doom and gloom situation. If you know you're going to face UWR delver, then why don't you run 4x abrupt decay in the maindeck? That card single-handedly owns delver decks and anything dubbed "tempo" because it indiscriminately kills stuff and shrugs off daze/pierce/force. Running a sub-optimal list into a matchup and then saying this deck can't handle things is an inaccurate depiction.
@your list:
If we're really going to be picky, the list you posted is junk-blade, which is different from Maverick and Dark Maverick. You're banking on SFM and lingering souls to "get there" on value. No wonder you're dying to delver decks. They burn out your durdles and suddenly you're tempo'ed out of playing your key spells. UWR delver loses to Maverick thanks to mom + thalia + [qpm/kotr]. The list you link to isn't Maverick, and the emphasis is clear. You're losing because you need high-priced spells (in life like thoughtseize or cc like lingering), which get blocked by daze and pierce. Maverick, by contrast, is making a ground game that's disruptive (see: mom and thalia). When you're the one wastelanding + thalia taxing opponents, their tempo spells suddenly force them to tap out. Now their fast game is a crawl.
My last point is also something everyone needs to think about. Magic is built as a rocks-paper-scissors game. You can't change that. Make a deck designed to fight 1 thing really well. If you have a deck that's got discard, some spells, some creatures, a 4 drop finisher, some silver bullets: you're making a mess. I've been there myself. Be a master of 1 thing, not a mediocre jack of many. You wanna fight combo and tempo? sweet. Pick 1 thing you want to destroy and if possible, use pieces that work well against the other. However, if your mirror (maverick, sfm decks, dnt) or control (miracles, lands, bug control) matchups go down, don't complain. You can't beat every deck out there.
Combo: Thalia, Teeg (some uses), Scooze (some uses), discard, ethersworn canonist, leyline of sanctity (burn/storm/belcher), surgical extraction/rest in peace (dependent)
Tempo: Thalia, Mom (negates all removal), wasteland (90% of tempo decks are dual-heavy and can't afford to miss a land drop), card advantage (confidant, library), abrupt decay, surgical extraction
No. 'Geddon has wider applications and indiscriminately nukes all lands. This is helpful against slower control decks (miracles) or ones that love having tons of mana (12 post, lands.dec, even DnT to a certain extent). The biggest thing to consider is what you're going after. I am very wary of Choke atm and think the card doesn't hinder blue opponents like it once did. I would ALWAYS go geddon > tsunami because that latter is so provincial.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
That said; most aggro-control decks don't "Just do something well", they are aggro control because they run (usually) 2 forms of disruption (land + [hand or permanent].) This deck has silver bullets (found by KotR) and aims to deal with Tempo/midrange alike. IMO Legacy decks are typically jack-of-all-trades or they just lack something against combo (because combo comes in too many forms to reasonably disrupt all maindeck.) They have to be to be any good.
Look at Miracles or Deathblade. Disruption works on Fair and Unfair alike, they have myriad answers to creature spam, high quality creatures, combo, or tempo. They're good because they *do* do everything. There are too many "Oops, you lose!" cards in legacy to not "do everything" unless you have a game plan like "Destroy all of your mana"; which (if you've ever played pox) still doesn't work out well.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
The best argument I've heard against Choke is that it's really only good against Miracles and High Tide, and even then, it can be played around without too much trouble. Considering that you can't cast Tsunami under a Teeg (which you should run to help the Miracles MU), you won't likely hit all their lands (what if they leave fetchlands up? they do that naturally for top activations), it's taxed up to 5 mana by Thalia (big difference from 4 mana) and it doesn't answer Jace, Rest in Peace, or Entreat tokens, not to mention they only need W to wipe your board. If you want this kind of an effect, play Cataclysm. If not, find a different way to trump the MU.
Also, no, you shouldn't expect a tier 1.5/tier 2 legacy deck to have 60/40 match ups across the board. You will have bad match ups. You can have game against everything, but you do need to pick what matters, or you're just going to have a bad time.
@mikeduges
You are playing Junk, which is fine, but has it's own thread. This isn't a semantic debate; you're running ~7-10 less creatures than the typical Maverick list, with a heavier dedication to black. Congrats! You slid on the spectrum over to Junk, which is a sweet deck. Not something we here should be expected to chat about in this thread though.