While I played the living wish build above last week, two weeks prior I had been playing a dark punishing list (basically punishing with a black dual and bog over my two basics) which served me quite well. All I'm currently missing is an extra zealous persecution from the board. I'll probably be playing that next weekend, and I'll probably update wkth a list later this evening.
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I've finally decided to take the plunge into Legacy and sold off my Standard and extra modern staples laying around. I really feel Maverick is the deck for me so I ordered all the pieces...just waiting to try it out now.
This is what I plan on using for my first build. Sorry, not enough for the Bayou so I went with an extra basic.
...As always any opinions/critique/etc would be so helpful right now as I start to learn about this format!
Please post your list in some sort of [creature/spell/lands] composition, as alphabetical is not what the internet (or MTGS) does.
After that, I'd run 4x GSZ because the card is essential.
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10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Is Chord of Calling feasible in any way in Maverick? It is an instant, can grab a creature of any color but costs a lot to cast.
It's way too slow. You have no way of getting a turn 1 DA unless you draw it. For Legacy, the card is unplayable.
I don't know about "unplayable". It could probably fit as a 1-2 of in a Nic Fit deck. However, for Maverick, yes Green Sun Zenith is just better. There is a reason GSZ is banned in Modern. People say Maverick is based around Knight of the Reliquary. I say it's based off Green Sun Zenith (even though the deck I guess was around before it was printed)
I have pondered about Chord in Maverick but there are 2 big obstacles in the way:
1. Does Chord > card you cut make Maverick better? I usually stop here.
2. How well does Chord interact with Maverick's actual board-states?
Anecdotal evidence has me thinking I land 3 creatures table by turn 4. On rare occasion, said creatures are 2x knights + another strong beater. Sometimes it's 3x dorks. It's more common to have a mix of dorks and beaters. Turn 4 is when Maverick really "turns on" and either turns the table or delivers the killing blow. It's also a realistic turn for Chord to come online for anything substantial. I wouldn't want to sacrifice turns of beating down on the opponent to convoke-cast Chord. Additionally, I win half my games thanks to [Thalia + Wasteland]. That winning duo works against Chord because I'm inflating casting costs.
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10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I have pondered about Chord in Maverick but there are 2 big obstacles in the way:
1. Does Chord > card you cut make Maverick better? I usually stop here.
2. How well does Chord interact with Maverick's actual board-states?
Anecdotal evidence has me thinking I land 3 creatures table by turn 4. On rare occasion, said creatures are 2x knights + another strong beater. Sometimes it's 3x dorks. It's more common to have a mix of dorks and beaters. Turn 4 is when Maverick really "turns on" and either turns the table or delivers the killing blow. It's also a realistic turn for Chord to come online for anything substantial. I wouldn't want to sacrifice turns of beating down on the opponent to convoke-cast Chord. Additionally, I win half my games thanks to [Thalia + Wasteland]. That winning duo works against Chord because I'm inflating casting costs.
I've seen one of chord do wonders in elves. But elves doesn't really have any "hidden" tricks so it might just be how surprising it is to have something happen from the opponent's hand instead of cards in play.
I have pondered about Chord in Maverick but there are 2 big obstacles in the way:
1. Does Chord > card you cut make Maverick better? I usually stop here.
2. How well does Chord interact with Maverick's actual board-states?
Anecdotal evidence has me thinking I land 3 creatures table by turn 4. On rare occasion, said creatures are 2x knights + another strong beater. Sometimes it's 3x dorks. It's more common to have a mix of dorks and beaters. Turn 4 is when Maverick really "turns on" and either turns the table or delivers the killing blow. It's also a realistic turn for Chord to come online for anything substantial. I wouldn't want to sacrifice turns of beating down on the opponent to convoke-cast Chord. Additionally, I win half my games thanks to [Thalia + Wasteland]. That winning duo works against Chord because I'm inflating casting costs.
I've seen one of chord do wonders in elves. But elves doesn't really have any "hidden" tricks so it might just be how surprising it is to have something happen from the opponent's hand instead of cards in play.
I think you're missing the points I'm emphasizing. Elves is a different animal...not to mention it doesn't rely on the Thalia + Wasteland combo. Elves.dec is all about churning out a handful of dorks and convert that to a game-winning bomb creature. For elves, a single Chord makes sense, as their team taps for mana anyways (plus they can also untap each other).
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10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I have pondered about Chord in Maverick but there are 2 big obstacles in the way:
1. Does Chord > card you cut make Maverick better? I usually stop here.
2. How well does Chord interact with Maverick's actual board-states?
Anecdotal evidence has me thinking I land 3 creatures table by turn 4. On rare occasion, said creatures are 2x knights + another strong beater. Sometimes it's 3x dorks. It's more common to have a mix of dorks and beaters. Turn 4 is when Maverick really "turns on" and either turns the table or delivers the killing blow. It's also a realistic turn for Chord to come online for anything substantial. I wouldn't want to sacrifice turns of beating down on the opponent to convoke-cast Chord. Additionally, I win half my games thanks to [Thalia + Wasteland]. That winning duo works against Chord because I'm inflating casting costs.
I've seen one of chord do wonders in elves. But elves doesn't really have any "hidden" tricks so it might just be how surprising it is to have something happen from the opponent's hand instead of cards in play.
I think you're missing the points I'm emphasizing. Elves is a different animal...not to mention it doesn't rely on the Thalia + Wasteland combo. Elves.dec is all about churning out a handful of dorks and convert that to a game-winning bomb creature. For elves, a single Chord makes sense, as their team taps for mana anyways (plus they can also untap each other).
You're misunderstanding me.
I'm saying that *even* in elves I'm not sure if its "good" or if I'm simply surprised by instant speed tricks from their hand.
Chord is definitely powerful, but it suffers from the same problems as every other non-merfolk lord suffers. Its only really good when you already have a board out. But if you have a board out--then why not just kill the opponent?
Elves is a weird corner case because they can go from 0-5 dudes on the board off of just one glimpse of nature. Being that's the case, Chord has *some* nominal use as GSZ #5--but is it actually needed?
For Elves one can argue that Natural Order is GSZ #5-8. Which is still strictly better than Cord. The instant speed isn't relevant in that deck because they are usually tapped out to dump their hand and obviously you want to cast Craterhoof Behemoth during your turn.
@anerica: Not a fan of building the deck in that manner. You put no words/directions alongside it either. If I'm going with Dark Maverick, I build the deck quite differently. For a wide variety of lists, I even disagree with the shell presented.
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10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Can a Thalia-less list be considered? Is Mav still a shell (what with GSZ, abrupt, p-fire) that wants Thalia? More to the point can Dark Mav work without her? I know some punishing Mav lists have omitted her. I intend to test this myself, but I wanted to see if anyone else has given more of a GWx aggro/stonebade approach a go.
Hey Everyone, thought I would share my take on Dark Maverick, although I think it is pretty stock, please let me know what you think! Especially regarding the Sideboard VS an unknown meta.
Can a Thalia-less list be considered? Is Mav still a shell (what with GSZ, abrupt, p-fire) that wants Thalia? More to the point can Dark Mav work without her? I know some punishing Mav lists have omitted her. I intend to test this myself, but I wanted to see if anyone else has given more of a GWx aggro/stonebade approach a go.
Technically, yes.
Punishing varaints move her to the sideboard.
Junk lists can do the same and run Thoughtseize/abrupt decays main instead.
You could also, theoretically, run more teegs instead of thalias.
I don't know if this is efficient, but it is technically within reason. (I've sided out thalia's in game 2s a lot so its not exactly without merit)
Moving Thalia is a slippery slope to Junk. Basically if you add discard:
-You need enough to reliably see it
-It makes your topdecks worse
-You need something to compensate your bad topdecks (Lily, Bob are usually that; but library, top, and courser could do it)
-You need to *fetch black early.*
Similarly, it makes you worse against a variety of combo you probably feel good about, such as Dredge and Manaless Dredge, and it'll make you worse against delver (less threats, less disruption overall.)
The reasons to run Junk are typically that every card is high impact; less about synergy. Instead of supporting KotR until he's big, you just drop Goyf who's already big. Instead of using Mom/Thalia, you're dropping Bob/Lily. This tactic is better against opposing Maverick decks, D&T, and that sort of thing because you are removal heavy and have card advantage and aggression everywhere.
Maverick, however, has better game against things like Delver, because it's manabase is less-garbage, Thalia helps (brings you to the midgame), Mom helps (lower removal counts), and you're more apt to be allowed to remove things without "wasting it"; I.E. Junk runs a lot of must-remove threats; Delver variants run 12; of which usually 4-8 are ignorable for Maverick.
Junk/Dark Maverick (DC) are just much better for dealing with Jund, Maverick, DGA, D&T, and other slower decks while potentially having better Combo game (but usually it's just shifted which ones you have decent game against.) Maverick is much better at the current meta because you don't have as much time for mid-range grind fests and you can't afford to have your Bob killed and draw Land-Discard-Land.
@Nostra:
You can remove Thalia but what you replace her with greatly impacts future outcomes. The reason Maverick is played is because it puts up a fair fight across nearly all decks (fast combo being the only crushing archetype we inherently can't beat). Punishing has show some success since Khans because the format is basically delver/pyromancer, miracles, and grindy stuff.dec. Dark Maverick is also strong because it beats those very decks, albeit in a slightly different fashion (sweepers, decays, etc).
I agree with Tescrin that once you cut Thalia, you start the progression towards Junk. I think Junk is at a tremendous disadvantage right now. Discard only fuels treasure cruise (since Junk doesn't win fast). Goyf isn't as feared due to the top creatures being run right now (delver, pyromancer + tokens to chump for days, swiftspear, mother of runes, Stoneforge, etc). Other Junk threats such as Confidant and Liliana get killed by burn spells and decay. Burn's rise is the primary reason I shifted away from Maverick + Confidant builds.
Honestly, I believe Mom, Thalia, KotR, and Wasteland are the core of the deck. I start with that core 16 and build out from there. If I didn't want Thalia, I'd play another deck. You may also want to look into Aggro Loam or some Aggro Loam Maverick hybrids that have been floating around.
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That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
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Have any questions or concerns? Come take a dip in my pool.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I've finally decided to take the plunge into Legacy and sold off my Standard and extra modern staples laying around. I really feel Maverick is the deck for me so I ordered all the pieces...just waiting to try it out now.
This is what I plan on using for my first build. Sorry, not enough for the Bayou so I went with an extra basic.
1 Batterskull
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Gaea's Cradle
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Karakas
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Maze of Ith
4 Mother of Runes
1 Plains
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Savannah
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scrubland
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Swamp
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sylvan Library
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Yisan, the Wanderer Bard
2 Choke
1 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Life from the Loam
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Thoughtseize
1 Zealous Persecution
As always any opinions/critique/etc would be so helpful right now as I start to learn about this format!
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
Please post your list in some sort of [creature/spell/lands] composition, as alphabetical is not what the internet (or MTGS) does.
After that, I'd run 4x GSZ because the card is essential.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
It's way too slow. You have no way of getting a turn 1 DA unless you draw it. For Legacy, the card is unplayable.
I don't know about "unplayable". It could probably fit as a 1-2 of in a Nic Fit deck. However, for Maverick, yes Green Sun Zenith is just better. There is a reason GSZ is banned in Modern. People say Maverick is based around Knight of the Reliquary. I say it's based off Green Sun Zenith (even though the deck I guess was around before it was printed)
1. Does Chord > card you cut make Maverick better? I usually stop here.
2. How well does Chord interact with Maverick's actual board-states?
Anecdotal evidence has me thinking I land 3 creatures table by turn 4. On rare occasion, said creatures are 2x knights + another strong beater. Sometimes it's 3x dorks. It's more common to have a mix of dorks and beaters. Turn 4 is when Maverick really "turns on" and either turns the table or delivers the killing blow. It's also a realistic turn for Chord to come online for anything substantial. I wouldn't want to sacrifice turns of beating down on the opponent to convoke-cast Chord. Additionally, I win half my games thanks to [Thalia + Wasteland]. That winning duo works against Chord because I'm inflating casting costs.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I've seen one of chord do wonders in elves. But elves doesn't really have any "hidden" tricks so it might just be how surprising it is to have something happen from the opponent's hand instead of cards in play.
I think you're missing the points I'm emphasizing. Elves is a different animal...not to mention it doesn't rely on the Thalia + Wasteland combo. Elves.dec is all about churning out a handful of dorks and convert that to a game-winning bomb creature. For elves, a single Chord makes sense, as their team taps for mana anyways (plus they can also untap each other).
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
You're misunderstanding me.
I'm saying that *even* in elves I'm not sure if its "good" or if I'm simply surprised by instant speed tricks from their hand.
Chord is definitely powerful, but it suffers from the same problems as every other non-merfolk lord suffers. Its only really good when you already have a board out. But if you have a board out--then why not just kill the opponent?
Elves is a weird corner case because they can go from 0-5 dudes on the board off of just one glimpse of nature. Being that's the case, Chord has *some* nominal use as GSZ #5--but is it actually needed?
AUTO INCLUDE:
PICK 2:
PICK 3:
PICK 2:
PICK 3or4
PICK 2or3 (DEPENDING ON LAST PICK)
How accurate is this?
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
4 Mother of Runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Thalia, guardian of thraben
3 stoneforge mystic
1 scavenging ooze
1 qasali pridemage
1 gaddock teeg
1 dryad arbor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of fire and ice
4 Swords to plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's zenith
2 Sylvan Library
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 ethersworn canonist
1 pithing needle
1 phyrexian revoker
1 engineered plague
1 choke
1 rest in peace
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Circle of Protection: Red
4 Thoughtseize
Technically, yes.
Punishing varaints move her to the sideboard.
Junk lists can do the same and run Thoughtseize/abrupt decays main instead.
You could also, theoretically, run more teegs instead of thalias.
I don't know if this is efficient, but it is technically within reason. (I've sided out thalia's in game 2s a lot so its not exactly without merit)
-You need enough to reliably see it
-It makes your topdecks worse
-You need something to compensate your bad topdecks (Lily, Bob are usually that; but library, top, and courser could do it)
-You need to *fetch black early.*
Similarly, it makes you worse against a variety of combo you probably feel good about, such as Dredge and Manaless Dredge, and it'll make you worse against delver (less threats, less disruption overall.)
The reasons to run Junk are typically that every card is high impact; less about synergy. Instead of supporting KotR until he's big, you just drop Goyf who's already big. Instead of using Mom/Thalia, you're dropping Bob/Lily. This tactic is better against opposing Maverick decks, D&T, and that sort of thing because you are removal heavy and have card advantage and aggression everywhere.
Maverick, however, has better game against things like Delver, because it's manabase is less-garbage, Thalia helps (brings you to the midgame), Mom helps (lower removal counts), and you're more apt to be allowed to remove things without "wasting it"; I.E. Junk runs a lot of must-remove threats; Delver variants run 12; of which usually 4-8 are ignorable for Maverick.
Junk/Dark Maverick (DC) are just much better for dealing with Jund, Maverick, DGA, D&T, and other slower decks while potentially having better Combo game (but usually it's just shifted which ones you have decent game against.) Maverick is much better at the current meta because you don't have as much time for mid-range grind fests and you can't afford to have your Bob killed and draw Land-Discard-Land.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
You can remove Thalia but what you replace her with greatly impacts future outcomes. The reason Maverick is played is because it puts up a fair fight across nearly all decks (fast combo being the only crushing archetype we inherently can't beat). Punishing has show some success since Khans because the format is basically delver/pyromancer, miracles, and grindy stuff.dec. Dark Maverick is also strong because it beats those very decks, albeit in a slightly different fashion (sweepers, decays, etc).
I agree with Tescrin that once you cut Thalia, you start the progression towards Junk. I think Junk is at a tremendous disadvantage right now. Discard only fuels treasure cruise (since Junk doesn't win fast). Goyf isn't as feared due to the top creatures being run right now (delver, pyromancer + tokens to chump for days, swiftspear, mother of runes, Stoneforge, etc). Other Junk threats such as Confidant and Liliana get killed by burn spells and decay. Burn's rise is the primary reason I shifted away from Maverick + Confidant builds.
Honestly, I believe Mom, Thalia, KotR, and Wasteland are the core of the deck. I start with that core 16 and build out from there. If I didn't want Thalia, I'd play another deck. You may also want to look into Aggro Loam or some Aggro Loam Maverick hybrids that have been floating around.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod