My brother has shown some interest in the format. I'm looking for a good, relatively cheap deck that I could "budgetize" so that he could play it. Fortunately, in the traditional 2 color version of this deck, the meat of the deck is actually surprisingly cheap! (Well, it's cheap compared to much of the format.) The manabase, however, is not. So here's a list I've been considering, and I would love some input on the matter.
The 4 birds are because he can't afford Noble Hierarch, the one Goyf is on loan from me, the manabase is garbage but cheap, and he can't afford Enlightened Tutor for the board. The singleton DRS is because exiling creatures can be really helpful in some matchups (cough reanimator cough), plus you have 4 birds and one bojuka bog so it's not like you'll never activate his black ability. His land ability isn't useless either, since a ***** ton of his opponents will be using fetchlands. All in all, he seemed like a good singleton to fetch with GSZ.
Also, there's only 20 lands (21 if you count Dryad Arbor) because wastelands don't count as actual lands so I decided to trim the overall manabase.
Note that I left out Sylvan Library not because of its price but because it's kind of weak without fetchlands. I also left out Life from the Loam because it's not that great without wastelands.
So that's that, I would love some feedback on this semi-budget Maverick list!
No. I echo bakofried with pushing more "hatebears.dec" than trying to be a cheap maverick.
Maverick requires: Wasteland, Mom, Thalia, a mana dork. If you can't acquire those 4 pieces, don't play the deck. I think the lands in maverick CAN be budgeted out with the exception of Wasteland. It's more than a missle. It makes mana. It denies the opponent of mana. It works with Thalia. It works well with other creatures like KotR and DRS. If you can't get those 4 cards, no offense, there's not much hope in playing the deck. I WILL defend the idea of having a "budget maverick"....especially the GW version, but you'll just have to work around the flaws of not having fetches, duals, etc. Wasteland is certainly a requirement.
@Dorks: Mix DRS and BoP. I know you aren't fetching a ton but DRS later on in games is insane.
@List: Why not go with an adaptation of the Vial-lists? (Viciano's BoM VII: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=4923&d=228430)
Vial lists benefit from a complex mana base, but you could certainly streamline things and/or incorporate a GW hatebears spin.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
So if he can nab 4 wastelands for cheap on ebay, is it still worth playing even sans fetchlands?
It's better than 0 wastelands. But understand any "budget" version is never going to have the potential of the full. The more you compromise, the less potential your list has. Duals in Maverick have the least impact IMHO. YOu need wasteland and a few fetches. You can "deal with" lack of utility lands and duals to some degree (compare this to Tempo Thresh sans duals and fetches).
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
It's difficult to recommend anything largely because many of the expensive cards serve a critical purpose. Karakas gives us game against Reanimator, but only with Knight, because a one of doesn't do a whole lot of good. Knight, however, is pretty bad without fetches and wastes. I'd build a cheap deck for your brother, not a cheap version of a deck. Look at 12-post, dredge, Burn, Belcher, and maybe merfolk.
I actually disagree with that philosophy on a fundamental level. If my brother builds dredge or belcher, the only expensive cards he now has that see play in ANY other deck are LED. If he starts building maverick, even though it's unfinished, it will eventually become finished, and then he has a deck. I mean, I did the same thing; once I bought 8 blue fetchlands, I played an incredibly *****ty budget RUG list. Six months later I had my goyfs, and today I'm only missing one tropical island. That's why I hate the whole "just build a full deck" thing, it doesn't put you into the format proper.
(Burn isn't so bad because the only cards that are even slightly expensive are chain lightning, but burn is so dull to play and everyone and their grandmother knows how to play around it.)
Also isn't 12-post kind of reliant on stuff like candelabra? And if I'm not mistaken they run SnT as a backup strat. Doesn't seem that cheap to me. At that point he could just build MonoU omnitell, the only expensive cards in that list are SnT itself and FoW if I'm not mistaken.
But the biggest thing is he wants to play a traditional aggro deck where you curve out and turn things sideways to win. I, too, immediately suggested fish, but he's really stubborn and hates blue.
All that being said: I think Nic Fit might be a better choice. Especially since our meta is really well developed so there's only a few players who even play basic lands, so explorer is kind of nuts.
Well, it gets better, but he'd still need fetches. 4 Windswept Heaths at the minimum in a Vial build.
4 Wastelands Gives your Thalia and Knight of the Reliquary some game.
You need at least 8 "sac lands" to reliably grow your Knight (more preferably, but I find 8 to be the bare minimum) This is normally done with Fetchlands but other lands such as Wastelands and Horizon Canopies also add to the count. Essentially, Knights of the Reliquary are very tame if they aren't big when you cast them since they'll just be 2/2 or 3/3 boltable creatures that can't block or threaten to get through for damage. Thalia's tax also isn't as strong without a way to wreck their mana. 4 Wastelands are better than 4 fetches--but you really need the critical mass.
Nic Fit is hardly aggro. Nic Fit is looking to control and dominate the board more than anything. Cabal Therapy and Pernicious Deed can take care of most problems, and allow them to abuse Veteran Explorer to play cards that would otherwise be far too expensive for Legacy (six mana and up).
Neither Nic Fit or Maverick are aggro, nor are they really control. Solidly midrange. Of them, Maverick is more capable of being aggressive though. Play a quick KotR and bash is a legitimate strategy, whereas Nic Fit has no choice but to durdle for a few turns before it can start playing inherently more powerful and expensive spells than the opponent.
I was mainly trying to elucidate *why* simply 4 wastelands does not fix maverick without simply telling him "look at this list you should copy" especially when he's trying to build a budget deck.
I can't mod speak, but I echo Bakofried's sentiments to return the discussion to where it should be. If you wanna ask what deck you should play/buy/get into, take it in the official thread in the main area please. We have derailed this thread a bit.
@Bako: I don't know what to think of that list. I have SCG: Cuse coming up (weeks are flying by) and honestly I don't know if I wanna run GW Maverick or Junk. I got burned in NJ trying to force Dark Maverick in a tempo + miracles room. Pure GW needs Council's but I am unsure how to play that card.
Question: Does anyone have experience with Council's Judgment? I would love to run them in a GW build but have no idea if they are all they're cracked up to be. Plus how do you split them in the MD vs SB?
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I can't mod speak, but I echo Bakofried's sentiments to return the discussion to where it should be. If you wanna ask what deck you should play/buy/get into, take it in the official thread in the main area please. We have derailed this thread a bit.
@Bako: I don't know what to think of that list. I have SCG: Cuse coming up (weeks are flying by) and honestly I don't know if I wanna run GW Maverick or Junk. I got burned in NJ trying to force Dark Maverick in a tempo + miracles room. Pure GW needs Council's but I am unsure how to play that card.
Question: Does anyone have experience with Council's Judgment? I would love to run them in a GW build but have no idea if they are all they're cracked up to be. Plus how do you split them in the MD vs SB?
i actually have experience with council's judgement, so I can answer that to some extend. I started by running 2 of them in the 75 (1 main, 1 board), that was during our last monthly. I ended up taking first place in that one, but the judgement were only useful against merfolk, aka the only time I ever casted copies of that card during the tournament. After that, I tried the same list online for a week's worth of time, and found 2 to be too much for me (the 3 mana is a lot for most matchups, and does nothing against combo). So now I run 1 in the sideboard, and I am happy with it. I pretty much use it as an answer to true name and stoneforge (it came up many times where they can`t flash in batterskull in response, and I found that to be a very important quality for this card), and I like to use it as a one of that can like esperblade used to run a 1-of vindicate as an out to anything. I would play it maindeck, but the card just isn't that needed in the maindeck, IMO, and i find it borderline bad against a lot of decks (mostly all the fast decks). However, when I sided it in, I have never been unhappy to have it (against the slower decks and the true-name decks, mostly).
If you play gw (I play the junk version), I think you can probably run 2 copies in your sideboard, and see how it goes. You might have to cut that number to 1, but I believe 2 copies is the maximum you can afford. However, I don't know if you play it, but I would strongly recommend playing the stage depths combo. I was against that combo in maverick, but I now believe it`s too good to pass up. the number of situations I got out from with a 20/20 marit lage token is just too great to ignore, especially considering the fact that a lot of these situations are the kind of trouble you just can't normally come back from. The "sorry I win" button is something I think Maverick needs now, or if you want, something the deck benefits greatly from.
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Playing:
Legacy:
:symw::symb::symg::symu::symr:Dredge
:symu::symb: ANT
The Gate
Modern:
:symu::symr: Past in flames Storm
EDH:
:symr::symw::symb: Kaalia of the Vast
I can't mod speak, but I echo Bakofried's sentiments to return the discussion to where it should be. If you wanna ask what deck you should play/buy/get into, take it in the official thread in the main area please. We have derailed this thread a bit.
@Bako: I don't know what to think of that list. I have SCG: Cuse coming up (weeks are flying by) and honestly I don't know if I wanna run GW Maverick or Junk. I got burned in NJ trying to force Dark Maverick in a tempo + miracles room. Pure GW needs Council's but I am unsure how to play that card.
Question: Does anyone have experience with Council's Judgment? I would love to run them in a GW build but have no idea if they are all they're cracked up to be. Plus how do you split them in the MD vs SB?
i actually have experience with council's judgement, so I can answer that to some extend. I started by running 2 of them in the 75 (1 main, 1 board), that was during our last monthly. I ended up taking first place in that one, but the judgement were only useful against merfolk, aka the only time I ever casted copies of that card during the tournament. After that, I tried the same list online for a week's worth of time, and found 2 to be too much for me (the 3 mana is a lot for most matchups, and does nothing against combo). So now I run 1 in the sideboard, and I am happy with it. I pretty much use it as an answer to true name and stoneforge (it came up many times where they can`t flash in batterskull in response, and I found that to be a very important quality for this card), and I like to use it as a one of that can like esperblade used to run a 1-of vindicate as an out to anything. I would play it maindeck, but the card just isn't that needed in the maindeck, IMO, and i find it borderline bad against a lot of decks (mostly all the fast decks). However, when I sided it in, I have never been unhappy to have it (against the slower decks and the true-name decks, mostly).
If you play gw (I play the junk version), I think you can probably run 2 copies in your sideboard, and see how it goes. You might have to cut that number to 1, but I believe 2 copies is the maximum you can afford. However, I don't know if you play it, but I would strongly recommend playing the stage depths combo. I was against that combo in maverick, but I now believe it`s too good to pass up. the number of situations I got out from with a 20/20 marit lage token is just too great to ignore, especially considering the fact that a lot of these situations are the kind of trouble you just can't normally come back from. The "sorry I win" button is something I think Maverick needs now, or if you want, something the deck benefits greatly from.
I have access to any permutation of Maverick (aside from "Bant", since I sold those cards last year). I have played Dark Mav with some combination of Confidants and Decays to great success earlier in the year. The trifecta of Confidant, Decay, and Zealous Persecution can't be understated. Then you throw in the times Thoughtseize came in handy. We certainly have the tools to win.
In regards to Council's, you shed light on the mana cost issue. It certainly can become cumbersome to play the card at 3 mana but vindicate is a great analogy. I have to weigh whether DD/Stage + Council's is better than Confidant and a black-based SB. Not sure right now. DD/Stage doesn't work for me in Dark Mav lists unless I make significant changes (and most of them wipe out how "dark" the 60 is).
In a big event, I totally agree you need that "I win" button. Losing stalemates and/or closing out games is rough. Having something that you can essentially come back from oblivion is crucial.
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That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I can't mod speak, but I echo Bakofried's sentiments to return the discussion to where it should be. If you wanna ask what deck you should play/buy/get into, take it in the official thread in the main area please. We have derailed this thread a bit.
@Bako: I don't know what to think of that list. I have SCG: Cuse coming up (weeks are flying by) and honestly I don't know if I wanna run GW Maverick or Junk. I got burned in NJ trying to force Dark Maverick in a tempo + miracles room. Pure GW needs Council's but I am unsure how to play that card.
Question: Does anyone have experience with Council's Judgment? I would love to run them in a GW build but have no idea if they are all they're cracked up to be. Plus how do you split them in the MD vs SB?
i actually have experience with council's judgement, so I can answer that to some extend. I started by running 2 of them in the 75 (1 main, 1 board), that was during our last monthly. I ended up taking first place in that one, but the judgement were only useful against merfolk, aka the only time I ever casted copies of that card during the tournament. After that, I tried the same list online for a week's worth of time, and found 2 to be too much for me (the 3 mana is a lot for most matchups, and does nothing against combo). So now I run 1 in the sideboard, and I am happy with it. I pretty much use it as an answer to true name and stoneforge (it came up many times where they can`t flash in batterskull in response, and I found that to be a very important quality for this card), and I like to use it as a one of that can like esperblade used to run a 1-of vindicate as an out to anything. I would play it maindeck, but the card just isn't that needed in the maindeck, IMO, and i find it borderline bad against a lot of decks (mostly all the fast decks). However, when I sided it in, I have never been unhappy to have it (against the slower decks and the true-name decks, mostly).
If you play gw (I play the junk version), I think you can probably run 2 copies in your sideboard, and see how it goes. You might have to cut that number to 1, but I believe 2 copies is the maximum you can afford. However, I don't know if you play it, but I would strongly recommend playing the stage depths combo. I was against that combo in maverick, but I now believe it`s too good to pass up. the number of situations I got out from with a 20/20 marit lage token is just too great to ignore, especially considering the fact that a lot of these situations are the kind of trouble you just can't normally come back from. The "sorry I win" button is something I think Maverick needs now, or if you want, something the deck benefits greatly from.
I have access to any permutation of Maverick (aside from "Bant", since I sold those cards last year). I have played Dark Mav with some combination of Confidants and Decays to great success earlier in the year. The trifecta of Confidant, Decay, and Zealous Persecution can't be understated. Then you throw in the times Thoughtseize came in handy. We certainly have the tools to win.
In regards to Council's, you shed light on the mana cost issue. It certainly can become cumbersome to play the card at 3 mana but vindicate is a great analogy. I have to weigh whether DD/Stage + Council's is better than Confidant and a black-based SB. Not sure right now. DD/Stage doesn't work for me in Dark Mav lists unless I make significant changes (and most of them wipe out how "dark" the 60 is).
In a big event, I totally agree you need that "I win" button. Losing stalemates and/or closing out games is rough. Having something that you can essentially come back from oblivion is crucial.
On the topic of Council's Judgement. I run a GW list running 3 in the sideboard. And even with 6 basics sometimes the WW is hard to get online in time. I'm contemplating running 2 instead but its ability to answer True-Name has been invaluable. My main difficulty is getting all 3 of them in the main since its usually easy enough to find room to side in 1, and easy-ish to find room for a 2nd one to side in depending on matchup, but the 3rd one is almost impossible to side in at times.
If you need CJ to deal with TNN I feel like your deck is probably failing pretty hard at that point. You have SoFaI (essentially 5 cards), Mom (4 cards), and you swarm. I've never had an issue racing TNN with my durdly 12 creature decks (with 8 of the creatures being DRS/Confidant); why can't you just race TNN? BSK, Knight put them on the defensive and all you need is Mom/SoFaI to plant absurd damage into their face.
Also, landing CJ against Daze, Pierce, and FoW if you can't race TNN seems difficult.
IMO worry about the MUs that matter (getting enough discard/hatebears for storm, reliably killing Miracles.) Losing TNN races is a failure of the deck to function in the first place; not the failure to answer a hexproof Delver. There is a reason TNN decks aren't on top save for BUG Delver (which plays him hoping that the disruption makes you unable to race/function.)
On that note, I've noticed Lightning Greaves recently. GSZ + Teeg and SFM + Greaves can give you an instant lock on Miracles unless they run CJ or something. Greaves is also good there for simply pushing damage with topdeck'd dudes. I think the next time I'm running an SFM package I'll be trying greaves out; even if only to give DRS or KotR some protection or haste-ness.
Sword of Vengeance is alright as well if you have token/weenie spam or simply can't figure out Miracles.
If you need CJ to deal with TNN I feel like your deck is probably failing pretty hard at that point. You have SoFaI (essentially 5 cards), Mom (4 cards), and you swarm. I've never had an issue racing TNN with my durdly 12 creature decks (with 8 of the creatures being DRS/Confidant); why can't you just race TNN? BSK, Knight put them on the defensive and all you need is Mom/SoFaI to plant absurd damage into their face.
Agreed. I like ZP for this very reason. The only time I can't race TNN is when there are lords or something out that pumps the toughness of TNN (merfolks, sword of x/y on TNN, etc). In those situations, I essentially lost the war and will likely die in within 2 turns anyway. I like CJ as a means to "also shoot down TNN"...not be the lone card I'm counting on to alleviate pressure. Again, the vindicate analogy works for me.
Also, landing CJ against Daze, Pierce, and FoW if you can't race TNN seems difficult.
This is what I want details on. Someone who has experience here. I haven't had events to play in so I'm at the mercy of everyone else.
IMO worry about the MUs that matter (getting enough discard/hatebears for storm, reliably killing Miracles.) Losing TNN races is a failure of the deck to function in the first place; not the failure to answer a hexproof Delver. There is a reason TNN decks aren't on top save for BUG Delver (which plays him hoping that the disruption makes you unable to race/function.)
Very valid point. This is what got me into black. I wish GW had a way to nerf combo like Thoughtseize and a way to handle crowds like ZP. We got a pure white Vindicate, which gives the GW lists something to challenge planeswalkers, problem permanents, and shroud (TNN). Nevertheless, the upside of CJ is strong enough to let me investigate its inclusion. The one piece I really don't like is its cost under Thalia. Suddenly it is a 4 drop vindicate effect. Not sure if I wanna pay that effect even if it's on-color. The cost doesn't scare me in pure GW lists. It may be unplayable for my Dark Mav manabase.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Ah, maybe I was misunderstanding. You like CJ for hitting other stuff with TNN simply on the radar. I can understand that then. I honestly am a "black" player who happens to run Junk since white has such nasty combo hate (KotR for Dredge/Sneak/Reanimator, hatebears to lock out storm after disruption.) As someone approaching it from the opposite direction; I usually am splashing Red or White for combo-hating permanents because discard isn't enough
That said, Children of Korlis, Mindbreak Trap, and Silence are reasonable storm hate if you're desperate for T1 plays (Silence them in response to cracking LED with tutor on the stack for instance.) It can also screw up miracles pretty badly if they go to terminus and in response to the trigger you block it. (miracle trigger says "you may cast it for this" and goes on the stack, silence before this means they can't cast it since can't > can.)
As an aside; I've been pleasantly surprised by Blind Obedience in the MD or SB. Even shutting off blockers so you get one more hit through, leaving Top vulnerable to removal for a turn, or pinging people's health down while durdling around has been nice. It screws with storm, hoses elves into a Progenitus corner, and messes with S&T pretty well (minus omniscience variants.) Pinging for 1 is pretty minor, but in a dragged out game it adds up. I definitely would not run more than two, and I like it as a 1-of more than a 2-of.
My brother has shown some interest in the format. I'm looking for a good, relatively cheap deck that I could "budgetize" so that he could play it. Fortunately, in the traditional 2 color version of this deck, the meat of the deck is actually surprisingly cheap! (Well, it's cheap compared to much of the format.) The manabase, however, is not. So here's a list I've been considering, and I would love some input on the matter.
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
Lands
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Brushland
2 Stirring Wildwood
5 Forest
4 Plains
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Rest in Peace
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Choke
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Path to Exile
So? Can it compete? What should I change?
The 4 birds are because he can't afford Noble Hierarch, the one Goyf is on loan from me, the manabase is garbage but cheap, and he can't afford Enlightened Tutor for the board. The singleton DRS is because exiling creatures can be really helpful in some matchups (cough reanimator cough), plus you have 4 birds and one bojuka bog so it's not like you'll never activate his black ability. His land ability isn't useless either, since a ***** ton of his opponents will be using fetchlands. All in all, he seemed like a good singleton to fetch with GSZ.
Also, there's only 20 lands (21 if you count Dryad Arbor) because wastelands don't count as actual lands so I decided to trim the overall manabase.
Note that I left out Sylvan Library not because of its price but because it's kind of weak without fetchlands. I also left out Life from the Loam because it's not that great without wastelands.
So that's that, I would love some feedback on this semi-budget Maverick list!
No. I echo bakofried with pushing more "hatebears.dec" than trying to be a cheap maverick.
Maverick requires: Wasteland, Mom, Thalia, a mana dork. If you can't acquire those 4 pieces, don't play the deck. I think the lands in maverick CAN be budgeted out with the exception of Wasteland. It's more than a missle. It makes mana. It denies the opponent of mana. It works with Thalia. It works well with other creatures like KotR and DRS. If you can't get those 4 cards, no offense, there's not much hope in playing the deck. I WILL defend the idea of having a "budget maverick"....especially the GW version, but you'll just have to work around the flaws of not having fetches, duals, etc. Wasteland is certainly a requirement.
@Dorks: Mix DRS and BoP. I know you aren't fetching a ton but DRS later on in games is insane.
@List: Why not go with an adaptation of the Vial-lists? (Viciano's BoM VII: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=4923&d=228430)
Vial lists benefit from a complex mana base, but you could certainly streamline things and/or incorporate a GW hatebears spin.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Bahra has been doing well with straight G/W Maverick on MTGO. Thoughts on the list? Seems like something of a throwback.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/11604
It's better than 0 wastelands. But understand any "budget" version is never going to have the potential of the full. The more you compromise, the less potential your list has. Duals in Maverick have the least impact IMHO. YOu need wasteland and a few fetches. You can "deal with" lack of utility lands and duals to some degree (compare this to Tempo Thresh sans duals and fetches).
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
(Burn isn't so bad because the only cards that are even slightly expensive are chain lightning, but burn is so dull to play and everyone and their grandmother knows how to play around it.)
Also isn't 12-post kind of reliant on stuff like candelabra? And if I'm not mistaken they run SnT as a backup strat. Doesn't seem that cheap to me. At that point he could just build MonoU omnitell, the only expensive cards in that list are SnT itself and FoW if I'm not mistaken.
But the biggest thing is he wants to play a traditional aggro deck where you curve out and turn things sideways to win. I, too, immediately suggested fish, but he's really stubborn and hates blue.
All that being said: I think Nic Fit might be a better choice. Especially since our meta is really well developed so there's only a few players who even play basic lands, so explorer is kind of nuts.
4 Wastelands Gives your Thalia and Knight of the Reliquary some game.
You need at least 8 "sac lands" to reliably grow your Knight (more preferably, but I find 8 to be the bare minimum) This is normally done with Fetchlands but other lands such as Wastelands and Horizon Canopies also add to the count. Essentially, Knights of the Reliquary are very tame if they aren't big when you cast them since they'll just be 2/2 or 3/3 boltable creatures that can't block or threaten to get through for damage. Thalia's tax also isn't as strong without a way to wreck their mana. 4 Wastelands are better than 4 fetches--but you really need the critical mass.
Neither Nic Fit or Maverick are aggro, nor are they really control. Solidly midrange. Of them, Maverick is more capable of being aggressive though. Play a quick KotR and bash is a legitimate strategy, whereas Nic Fit has no choice but to durdle for a few turns before it can start playing inherently more powerful and expensive spells than the opponent.
Did anyone check out the list I posted?
I was mainly trying to elucidate *why* simply 4 wastelands does not fix maverick without simply telling him "look at this list you should copy" especially when he's trying to build a budget deck.
@Bako: I don't know what to think of that list. I have SCG: Cuse coming up (weeks are flying by) and honestly I don't know if I wanna run GW Maverick or Junk. I got burned in NJ trying to force Dark Maverick in a tempo + miracles room. Pure GW needs Council's but I am unsure how to play that card.
Question: Does anyone have experience with Council's Judgment? I would love to run them in a GW build but have no idea if they are all they're cracked up to be. Plus how do you split them in the MD vs SB?
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
i actually have experience with council's judgement, so I can answer that to some extend. I started by running 2 of them in the 75 (1 main, 1 board), that was during our last monthly. I ended up taking first place in that one, but the judgement were only useful against merfolk, aka the only time I ever casted copies of that card during the tournament. After that, I tried the same list online for a week's worth of time, and found 2 to be too much for me (the 3 mana is a lot for most matchups, and does nothing against combo). So now I run 1 in the sideboard, and I am happy with it. I pretty much use it as an answer to true name and stoneforge (it came up many times where they can`t flash in batterskull in response, and I found that to be a very important quality for this card), and I like to use it as a one of that can like esperblade used to run a 1-of vindicate as an out to anything. I would play it maindeck, but the card just isn't that needed in the maindeck, IMO, and i find it borderline bad against a lot of decks (mostly all the fast decks). However, when I sided it in, I have never been unhappy to have it (against the slower decks and the true-name decks, mostly).
If you play gw (I play the junk version), I think you can probably run 2 copies in your sideboard, and see how it goes. You might have to cut that number to 1, but I believe 2 copies is the maximum you can afford. However, I don't know if you play it, but I would strongly recommend playing the stage depths combo. I was against that combo in maverick, but I now believe it`s too good to pass up. the number of situations I got out from with a 20/20 marit lage token is just too great to ignore, especially considering the fact that a lot of these situations are the kind of trouble you just can't normally come back from. The "sorry I win" button is something I think Maverick needs now, or if you want, something the deck benefits greatly from.
Playing:
Legacy:
:symw::symb::symg::symu::symr:Dredge
:symu::symb: ANT
The Gate
Modern:
:symu::symr: Past in flames Storm
EDH:
:symr::symw::symb: Kaalia of the Vast
I have access to any permutation of Maverick (aside from "Bant", since I sold those cards last year). I have played Dark Mav with some combination of Confidants and Decays to great success earlier in the year. The trifecta of Confidant, Decay, and Zealous Persecution can't be understated. Then you throw in the times Thoughtseize came in handy. We certainly have the tools to win.
In regards to Council's, you shed light on the mana cost issue. It certainly can become cumbersome to play the card at 3 mana but vindicate is a great analogy. I have to weigh whether DD/Stage + Council's is better than Confidant and a black-based SB. Not sure right now. DD/Stage doesn't work for me in Dark Mav lists unless I make significant changes (and most of them wipe out how "dark" the 60 is).
In a big event, I totally agree you need that "I win" button. Losing stalemates and/or closing out games is rough. Having something that you can essentially come back from oblivion is crucial.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
On the topic of Council's Judgement. I run a GW list running 3 in the sideboard. And even with 6 basics sometimes the WW is hard to get online in time. I'm contemplating running 2 instead but its ability to answer True-Name has been invaluable. My main difficulty is getting all 3 of them in the main since its usually easy enough to find room to side in 1, and easy-ish to find room for a 2nd one to side in depending on matchup, but the 3rd one is almost impossible to side in at times.
Also, landing CJ against Daze, Pierce, and FoW if you can't race TNN seems difficult.
IMO worry about the MUs that matter (getting enough discard/hatebears for storm, reliably killing Miracles.) Losing TNN races is a failure of the deck to function in the first place; not the failure to answer a hexproof Delver. There is a reason TNN decks aren't on top save for BUG Delver (which plays him hoping that the disruption makes you unable to race/function.)
On that note, I've noticed Lightning Greaves recently. GSZ + Teeg and SFM + Greaves can give you an instant lock on Miracles unless they run CJ or something. Greaves is also good there for simply pushing damage with topdeck'd dudes. I think the next time I'm running an SFM package I'll be trying greaves out; even if only to give DRS or KotR some protection or haste-ness.
Sword of Vengeance is alright as well if you have token/weenie spam or simply can't figure out Miracles.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
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Agreed. I like ZP for this very reason. The only time I can't race TNN is when there are lords or something out that pumps the toughness of TNN (merfolks, sword of x/y on TNN, etc). In those situations, I essentially lost the war and will likely die in within 2 turns anyway. I like CJ as a means to "also shoot down TNN"...not be the lone card I'm counting on to alleviate pressure. Again, the vindicate analogy works for me.
This is what I want details on. Someone who has experience here. I haven't had events to play in so I'm at the mercy of everyone else.
Very valid point. This is what got me into black. I wish GW had a way to nerf combo like Thoughtseize and a way to handle crowds like ZP. We got a pure white Vindicate, which gives the GW lists something to challenge planeswalkers, problem permanents, and shroud (TNN). Nevertheless, the upside of CJ is strong enough to let me investigate its inclusion. The one piece I really don't like is its cost under Thalia. Suddenly it is a 4 drop vindicate effect. Not sure if I wanna pay that effect even if it's on-color. The cost doesn't scare me in pure GW lists. It may be unplayable for my Dark Mav manabase.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
That said, Children of Korlis, Mindbreak Trap, and Silence are reasonable storm hate if you're desperate for T1 plays (Silence them in response to cracking LED with tutor on the stack for instance.) It can also screw up miracles pretty badly if they go to terminus and in response to the trigger you block it. (miracle trigger says "you may cast it for this" and goes on the stack, silence before this means they can't cast it since can't > can.)
As an aside; I've been pleasantly surprised by Blind Obedience in the MD or SB. Even shutting off blockers so you get one more hit through, leaving Top vulnerable to removal for a turn, or pinging people's health down while durdling around has been nice. It screws with storm, hoses elves into a Progenitus corner, and messes with S&T pretty well (minus omniscience variants.) Pinging for 1 is pretty minor, but in a dragged out game it adds up. I definitely would not run more than two, and I like it as a 1-of more than a 2-of.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look